Death and Taxes. There was an article that was able to shift how I looked at Magic. I'll go look it up again maybe, but essentially, on a long enough timeline, an 'eternal' format will evolve to either Xerox, or Prison/Tax to choke off the Xerox from its resources.
its an interesting bit of magic theory. though i think its a bit reductive to say that formats always trend towards one or the other. rather id say its about the elements of those types of decks continually showing how they are the most powerful assets in magic (and strategy games in general), because its about efficiency and choices.
That may be it, there was an OLD OLD mothership article on it as well I believe, but thats a great one.
Overall, the logical conclusion of a format is that Xerox and Prison continue to gain increased market shares of the metagame.
Modern's flaw, is that it only has half of the equation, and the space to operate in the margin's (Maverick, Grixis Control, GW Tool Box, Storm) is not able to be capitalized on, as the options those decks have in their Modern form, is missing the appropriate power level of those tools.
Anyone remember or played when there was a time that people complained about Jund having 'all of its Legacy tools' while decks like UW suffered and did not?
Right now, the majority of Modern does not have the same power level of tools, to fit into a paradigm of Xerox vs Prison.
*Also I agree with you that Ichorid would definitely see a place. I don't want to see Ichorid in Modern. Our local Dredge dude was frothing at the mouth at a potential reprint. And I mean Dredge dude; he owes his first Pro Tour qualification to the ubiquitous Golgari Grave-Troll.
I feel like most of what I want to see in Horizons I should just be posting in the "Please print this" thread. I keep coming back here to post a dream and stop to remember the other thread.
I'm trying to dream up deck sift that Control wants, but Xerox would hate. I'm thinking of trigger to do something tempo-y on suspend, then draw cards 2 turns later. Or the Ice Age delayed draw. Combine it with other colors and you can dream up some cool cards.
Right now, the majority of Modern does not have the same power level of tools, to fit into a paradigm of Xerox vs Prison.
Really? We've got Phoenix as Xerox and the Whir Prison deck as Prison - while Whir's metashare isn't anywhere near Phoenix's, it's still considered a very good deck and continues to put up results.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
Right now, the majority of Modern does not have the same power level of tools, to fit into a paradigm of Xerox vs Prison.
Really? We've got Phoenix as Xerox and the Whir Prison deck as Prison - while Whir's metashare isn't anywhere near Phoenix's, it's still considered a very good deck and continues to put up results.
Right. And on a long enough timeline it could gain share. The problem is the Grixis Controls, the GW toolbox, the Delver, the D&T.
In legacy they are still legit. In Modern their equals do not have legs, at all.
If nothing else changes there is no way Xerox vs Prison is not the final iteration of the format.
We just are only part way there, because prison tools are rarer in Standard now.
From the Ashes is a card I would like to see in this product. It is a very fair version of Armageddon that is nonetheless decent against some of the top tier strategies.
Keep discussion on card you'd like to see reprinted or how you think this set will impact modern. This thread is not going to become a state of modern while state is locked. This is the only warning to stay on topic.
Ulka
From the Ashes is a card I would like to see in this product. It is a very fair version of Armageddon that is nonetheless decent against some of the top tier strategies.
This is a completely fair card with a high enough mana cost to not really hurt that many decks. I see 0% of a problem with this card.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I wonder if they will print more tribal lands. I mean there are some tribal lands they could reprint like Wirewood Lodge. They could easily also print more variations and powerful variations of Cavern of Souls. Perhaps even Tribal Legendary Lands like providing mana-cost reduction per chosen tribe or other benefit while still providing colored mana.
Also, dredge would 1000% play ichorid. The list would just look a bit different. (Think closer to bridgevine, but now it can also grind you out and is faster)
I wanted to make sure I didn't look like an ass with my comment so I asked Sodeq considering he's probably the world's leading Dredge expert at this point. He said he doesn't see any lines with Ichorid in Modern Dredge but also echoed your sentiment that it's a very powerful engine with Bridge. At that point though, is it really Dredge still?
I'm not sure if it would be busted, but it would be played in some sort of dredge variant + bridge. Basically, this gives you another 4 hits that are "immediate" for prized amalgam, that also dont require a land like bloodghast does.
You can adjust the deck by adding more sticher's suppliers and maybe a sac outlet like viscera seer to increase black density. It seems pretty dooable?
With the different answers, I guess it's not sure if Ichorid will be used if it got reprinted. The reason I asked is because Dredge is a deck that I don't personally own, but have played against a couple of times already.. just out of curiosity if Ichorid would still be good in modern without the other legacy cards that helps it in legacy dredge. Anyway, thanks for the reply.
I wonder if they will print more tribal lands. I mean there are some tribal lands they could reprint like Wirewood Lodge. They could easily also print more variations and powerful variations of Cavern of Souls. Perhaps even Tribal Legendary Lands like providing mana-cost reduction per chosen tribe or other benefit while still providing colored mana.
Yes to tribal lands but not generic ones that fit into any tribe like Cavern of Souls (doesn't look like WotC wants an even more powerful version since they took some power out when they recently printed Unclaimed Territory). But tribe specific lands like Secluded Glen seem interesting, cost reducing might be too dangerous as we've seen with Eye of Ugin in the past, but there are many creative ways to have tribal lands, I imagine a legendary tribal land with some abilities that require an amount of tribe permanents to activate them. Something like this:
The Bee Hive
Legendary land
Tap: Add G to your mana pool
2G + tap: Create a 1/1 green bee token with flying
G + tap: Create a 1/1 green bee token with flying, activate this ability only if you control 3 or more bees
G + tap: Create a 1/1 green bee token with flying, it has "other bees you control have deathtouch", activate this ability only if you control 5 or more bees
Keep discussion on card you'd like to see reprinted or how you think this set will impact modern. This thread is not going to become a state of modern while state is locked. This is the only warning to stay on topic.
Ulka
Without context, (aka the State of Modern) discussion is surface level at best. Unlock the other thread if you want more in depth stuff there, and start encouraging people to use the Ignore function. I've got 3 people on my permanent list, and each add increased the value of this site considerably.
Without an understanding of what Modern is, what suggestions or speculation can even have value?
Keep discussion on card you'd like to see reprinted or how you think this set will impact modern. This thread is not going to become a state of modern while state is locked. This is the only warning to stay on topic.
Ulka
Without context, (aka the State of Modern) discussion is surface level at best. Unlock the other thread if you want more in depth stuff there, and start encouraging people to use the Ignore function. I've got 3 people on my permanent list, and each add increased the value of this site considerably.
Without an understanding of what Modern is, what suggestions or speculation can even have value?
Let me be clearer, any discussion on the state of modern without reference to the speculative reprints or how you'd like to see the format shift will not be tolerated. While the ignore function is useful it is not a catch all and should not have to be implemented to create a welcoming and respectful community. As the state of the modern thread is lock, discussion that regards to the locking of the thread should be directed to a Moderator in a Private message and not posted in other threads derailing them. If anyone has more questions on this please Private message me and I can discuss it further with you but this is not the place.
How do you all feel about Sylvan Library? The green midrnage decks could use this as their version of Azcanta. I feel the GB/x decks could use a little more consistency. Also, maybe cards that have creatures with explore + something else? Not sure if these kinds of cards will be present in MH, but something like this could help midrange a bit.
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Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
I feel like it would enable turbo fog to the point it could be come truly viable which would be super interesting to have in the format in my opinion. That or tangle
How do you all feel about Sylvan Library? The green midrnage decks could use this as their version of Azcanta. I feel the GB/x decks could use a little more consistency. Also, maybe cards that have creatures with explore + something else? Not sure if these kinds of cards will be present in MH, but something like this could help midrange a bit.
i wouldnt mind sylvan library. its not a card you can play many copies of, and the cost of paying life is generally higher in a format like modern. a tamer version that ive seen suggested (in this thread i believe) is Mirri's Guile.
maybe there is a bant miracles featuring counterbalance deck to be had.
moments peace seems like a reasonable card to include, though i think orim's chant its a bit more applicable in the format (as far as those types of effects go). i remember moments peace seeing some play in legacy lands decks some while back, since the flashback pairs well with loam.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Sylvan Library seems like an incredibly obnoxious card that will only help degenerate decks looking for specific cards. I could imagine fair decks couldn't afford the life loss, but something like Amulet Titan or Valakut decks would LOVE it.
i sincerely doubt either of those decks would play library, and if so it would be a 1-of at most in their sideboard. a 2 cmc tappout play that lets you see 3 cards the next turn forcing you to play life if you want more than one of them against aggro decks when you play little to no removal is extremely suspect. against anyone else it isnt advancing your gameplan (ie ramping), and there are better tools to find the payoffs (ie summoners pact)
yeah you can only use it during your draw step. probably a minor reason that it would be overlooked for horizons, the card is just horribly templated.
really if some unfair deck were using it, it would likely be tech against slower fair decks from the side. that begs the question why a big-mana/ramp deck is using sideboard slots to tech against decks they are naturally advantaged against. its use is somewhat limited to green aggro or midrange decks against bigger midrange or control decks or as a 1-of flex inclusion into midrange decks in place of tracker or bob type cards; and even in those cases it isnt so powerful as to become the defacto best tool. like i wouldnt be defaulting to it in elves.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
That may be it, there was an OLD OLD mothership article on it as well I believe, but thats a great one.
Modern's flaw, is that it only has half of the equation, and the space to operate in the margin's (Maverick, Grixis Control, GW Tool Box, Storm) is not able to be capitalized on, as the options those decks have in their Modern form, is missing the appropriate power level of those tools.
Anyone remember or played when there was a time that people complained about Jund having 'all of its Legacy tools' while decks like UW suffered and did not?
Right now, the majority of Modern does not have the same power level of tools, to fit into a paradigm of Xerox vs Prison.
Spirits
I wouldn't say I was "frothing at the mouth."
I'm trying to dream up deck sift that Control wants, but Xerox would hate. I'm thinking of trigger to do something tempo-y on suspend, then draw cards 2 turns later. Or the Ice Age delayed draw. Combine it with other colors and you can dream up some cool cards.
"Reveal a Dragon"
Really? We've got Phoenix as Xerox and the Whir Prison deck as Prison - while Whir's metashare isn't anywhere near Phoenix's, it's still considered a very good deck and continues to put up results.
Right. And on a long enough timeline it could gain share. The problem is the Grixis Controls, the GW toolbox, the Delver, the D&T.
In legacy they are still legit. In Modern their equals do not have legs, at all.
If nothing else changes there is no way Xerox vs Prison is not the final iteration of the format.
We just are only part way there, because prison tools are rarer in Standard now.
Spirits
Ulka
This is a completely fair card with a high enough mana cost to not really hurt that many decks. I see 0% of a problem with this card.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Competetive: Lantern Control, MonoR Phoenix, Dredge
Meta-Dependant: Modern Cheeri0s, Esper Spirits, Wilderness Teachings , Modern Elves, All-in Death's Shadow, Aristocrats, BW Death&Taxes
Fun own projects: Spireside Industries, UB Scrapyard, Thundercat Worship, Dirty Kitten, RB Rock, Eternal Toolbox
With the different answers, I guess it's not sure if Ichorid will be used if it got reprinted. The reason I asked is because Dredge is a deck that I don't personally own, but have played against a couple of times already.. just out of curiosity if Ichorid would still be good in modern without the other legacy cards that helps it in legacy dredge. Anyway, thanks for the reply.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Yes to tribal lands but not generic ones that fit into any tribe like Cavern of Souls (doesn't look like WotC wants an even more powerful version since they took some power out when they recently printed Unclaimed Territory). But tribe specific lands like Secluded Glen seem interesting, cost reducing might be too dangerous as we've seen with Eye of Ugin in the past, but there are many creative ways to have tribal lands, I imagine a legendary tribal land with some abilities that require an amount of tribe permanents to activate them. Something like this:
The Bee Hive
Legendary land
Tap: Add G to your mana pool
2G + tap: Create a 1/1 green bee token with flying
G + tap: Create a 1/1 green bee token with flying, activate this ability only if you control 3 or more bees
G + tap: Create a 1/1 green bee token with flying, it has "other bees you control have deathtouch", activate this ability only if you control 5 or more bees
Without context, (aka the State of Modern) discussion is surface level at best. Unlock the other thread if you want more in depth stuff there, and start encouraging people to use the Ignore function. I've got 3 people on my permanent list, and each add increased the value of this site considerably.
Without an understanding of what Modern is, what suggestions or speculation can even have value?
Spirits
Wha.. why?
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Let me be clearer, any discussion on the state of modern without reference to the speculative reprints or how you'd like to see the format shift will not be tolerated. While the ignore function is useful it is not a catch all and should not have to be implemented to create a welcoming and respectful community. As the state of the modern thread is lock, discussion that regards to the locking of the thread should be directed to a Moderator in a Private message and not posted in other threads derailing them. If anyone has more questions on this please Private message me and I can discuss it further with you but this is not the place.
Ulka
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
i wouldnt mind sylvan library. its not a card you can play many copies of, and the cost of paying life is generally higher in a format like modern. a tamer version that ive seen suggested (in this thread i believe) is Mirri's Guile.
maybe there is a bant miracles featuring counterbalance deck to be had.
moments peace seems like a reasonable card to include, though i think orim's chant its a bit more applicable in the format (as far as those types of effects go). i remember moments peace seeing some play in legacy lands decks some while back, since the flashback pairs well with loam.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Spirits
really if some unfair deck were using it, it would likely be tech against slower fair decks from the side. that begs the question why a big-mana/ramp deck is using sideboard slots to tech against decks they are naturally advantaged against. its use is somewhat limited to green aggro or midrange decks against bigger midrange or control decks or as a 1-of flex inclusion into midrange decks in place of tracker or bob type cards; and even in those cases it isnt so powerful as to become the defacto best tool. like i wouldnt be defaulting to it in elves.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Spirits