I'm absolutely glued to this spoiler season so I can say, "SEE, I TOLD YOU SO!" to absolutely ******* nobody; it's actually quite unhealthy. I'm not usually expecting much if anything from spoilers and sets, but WOTC and the community have hyped this set up so much as being a second coming...
...who exactly are you going to 'i told you so' to? Most of us that I saw trying to get some hype up for ourselves in this set did so because we see Modern as toxic, Wizards as hands off, and want a reset of the top decks.
In the scenario Horizon's does not accomplish this, you are going to 'told you so' to the same people who are disappointed that their own desires are not met?
I'm absolutely glued to this spoiler season so I can say, "SEE, I TOLD YOU SO!" to absolutely ******* nobody; it's actually quite unhealthy. I'm not usually expecting much if anything from spoilers and sets, but WOTC and the community have hyped this set up so much as being a second coming...
...who exactly are you going to 'i told you so' to? Most of us that I saw trying to get some hype up for ourselves in this set did so because we see Modern as toxic, Wizards as hands off, and want a reset of the top decks.
In the scenario Horizon's does not accomplish this, you are going to 'told you so' to the same people who are disappointed that their own desires are not met?
He quite explicitly said "to absolutely ******* nobody"
I still don't see the negativity for the set in general. I can see why BGx players can be a bit frustrated, but at the same time, the set overall seems quite impactfull so let's drop the "if it sucks the join the club" camp for a bit. Heck, we've been discussing tricolored snow decks! So far things look promising.
Honestly my ONLY gripe is how GY loaded it is, when I glance over at the 'Yeah Main Deck Surgical with RIP, Leylines, and Relic's in the Side' format that we all know and love.
If ever present GY hate was not a thing, I would be FULL STEAM into a Snap heavy Snow BUG. I'm probably going to throw a few hundred away on it regardless.
As a Slivers player, I am mostly disappointed with these slivers. They didn't do what Slivers needed to do to stay competitive or even get competitive.
I am disappointed there was no Crystalline Sliver or functional reprint with hexproof. The First Sliver is not a great card advntage engine. Dormant Sliver isn't really relevant, but a cheap Scry or Explore Sliver would have been nice. A loaming shaman or another graveyard dealing sliver would have been possible. A Cursecatcher-esque or thalia-esque sliver would have been nice to.
There are some combo opportunities with the new Boros Recknoer Sliver (with Psionic Sliver), Unearth Sliver, or Rummage Sliver, but all-in-all these are roleplayers and don't really help it become tier 2 even. Even the Boros Sliver replaces Blur Sliver and that just makes the deck lower to the ground. It doesn't help protect. There might be a combo sliver build out there with intruder alarm or something similar, with some of these new ones, but I can't really seem power up either a Fast Sliver deck all that much (with a humans esque mana base) or the current CoCo/Vial build.
All-in-all disappointed from a modern slivers player perspective or even a legacy Sliver player's perspective.
I am not sure what it would it take to differentiate the two.
We have similar lords to Merfolk although lack the ability to really interact with the opponents stack and boardstate with spells/specific utility merfolk (trickser/hibernation), but can get faster with better defensive utility with regeneration, blink, firstrike, lifegain.
We have similar lords to Spirits, but lack their ability to interact with the stack and play at flash speeds, but are bigger, faster, with better combat tricks.
We can have similar explosive boardstate to Elves with mana slivers, but lack combo finish and pure speed.
We have interesting utility like Humans although more difficult to get tall and can't interact with the stack or opponent.
Slivers is an interesting tribe. In many ways, we currently play like a hybrid between merfolk and elves with explosive power with tricky aspects. Our most powerful position is in defensive strategy. We can grind it out with Sliver Hive and a few other slivers and can answer most things on a battlefield although slowly. We struggle with doing it proactively. We just lack proactive solutiosn to problem. Elves have speed/combo. Humans with Freebooter/meedling mage. Merfolk have blue spells and great ETB utility. Spirits has Flash and Stack Interaction.
Slivers is fine probably in a pure control or aggro meta where it can leverage trickery/grinding ability with the best on the battlefied keywords. Mana Struggles and lack of proactive solutions to modern's problems (outside of some sideboard cards) inhibits the deck's ability to move forward a little.
Slivers plays best on the battlefield and you gotta be faster (Elves) or have someway to proactively disrupt through the stack while adding to the battlefield and yet slivers are best when reactive and when boardstates could get gummed up.
As to make it a better thing, it could stall out the game and grind out value which is where Explore/Scry/Hexproof could be valuable where while presenting a reasonable clock. Provoke could be a way to deal with pesky creatures either suiciding or with first strike to get them out of the way.
In Legacy Slivers exist as a decent aggro deck (for as much as pure aggro decks work in legacy) thanks to Crystalline Sliver. In some ways, I guess Slivers could supplant or shift what Spirits do just on the battlefield level.
It could try to become more of a combo deck with interesting ways to do that, but better protection and filtering would help me with a control style build
For just aggro Slivers, provoke would be good. It would solidfy that Slivers are the best on combat tribe and provide ways to achieve that state.
So any chance of snow Temur working from this set? It feels like a good stuff RUG deck topping out at Bloodbraid Elf and focusing on 2v1s could be really strong, using Hexdrinker instead of Delver and Nimble Mongoose.
Snow checks would be cool. "ETB tapped unless you control another Snow permanent". Could even give them basic land types so they can be fetched. Means you have to fetch a snow basic first, but that's not too bad.
Trying to maximize the snow archetype, I feel like we need dual snow's that dont come into play tapped. Something like
Frozen Snow-Swamp
Snow Island Swamp
Tap: 1
Tap: U or B - Use this to only cast Snow
Something like that?
I'm at the point where I want to put in some shocks/checks, but I dont want to nerf the Snow Count too much.
That design doesn't work, since as soon as you have a basic type, you can always tap for it (assuming no effects like Blood Moon are in play), so this would be a better Dual basically.
It would only work if you would reword it into: "Coloured Mana produced from this land can only be used to cast Snow Covered cards or activate Snow Covered Abilities"
And even than, they won't print just half of the land cycle (so only 5 of them), so they won't get printed in that set (if ever at all). Though, they could do a Snow cover Rainbow land, which can generate any coloured mana for Snow Permanents/Abilities and otherwise just C.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Can Dredge even handle packing this into it's list? I'm not overly familiar with the deck's finer points, but I would assume it has limited flex spots and they're more concerned with anti-hate than this.
As a long time fan of the MBC archtype I've always lamented it not being a thing in modern, and though I don't think it can be at this stage I absolutely love the thought of utilizing a snow theme w/ snow-covered swamp, scrying sheets, Frostwalk Bastion and Dead of Winter. Now I'm not sure what would need to come down the path to give this concept teeth, but If i could take out a wish it would be:
2BB
sorcery
Affinity for Snow
Target player discards two cards at random.
The BW and GB rares spoiled over the last two days all but guarantee no reprints of Vindicate or Pernicious Deed. This set...it's flavorful and interesting, but I can't help but be a bit disappointed by the lack of playable reprints for Modern. Don't get me wrong; there are some quality cards here, and I'm an older player who probably got too invested on the chance for some old favorites to make it into Modern. That said, for $10 a pack, I was expecting a few more bones to be tossed than what we got. At least the land cycle is amazing.
The BW and GB rares spoiled over the last two days all but guarantee no reprints of Vindicate or Pernicious Deed. This set...it's flavorful and interesting, but I can't help but be a bit disappointed by the lack of playable reprints for Modern. Don't get me wrong; there are some quality cards here, and I'm an older player who probably got too invested on the chance for some old favorites to make it into Modern. That said, for $10 a pack, I was expecting a few more bones to be tossed than what we got. At least the land cycle is amazing.
yeah i think wizards gave the modern community just too much time to stew after the product was announced. its months of people speculating on old reprints showing up, which really doesnt look to be the focus of the set at all.
the price tag isnt doing any favors either. its like they set up a product thats good for stores to open and sell the singles, cause who else wants to foot the bill for a bunch of cards not very relevant in the format you are playing. also, no matter how good the draft format is, people arent just gonna jam it regularly when it costs twice as much; not to mention core 2020 is right on the heels of its release.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I'm pretty high on Kaya's Guile right now. Many are pointing at Edict + Exile, but I think Edict + 4 life is way better. Control is often just trying to scrape by at this point in the game and that combination is pretty good. The 1/1 is probably fairly useless outside desperation, but the Exile is a handy mainboard hate option in the right situations. I think the Entwine is mostly a trap or very win-more.
As a predominantly UBx player I'm not high on seeing White get more good things, but I do like this card. Could have been BG.
One's I'm less confident will be T8, but have a decent shot: Ranger-Captain of Eos (If in humans will show up, but boosts power of a lot of fringe decks) Unearth Regrowth (JAC? Potential) Eladamri's Call (Neoform, Naya Breach, we'll see)
FoF (1 of UWx, better in UB, storm SB?) Goblin Engineer (who knows here...)
Urza (Potentially busted, or a non-player) Seasoned Pyromancer (Will see play, but not sure how prevalent) Lava Dart (Mono-Red Phoenix, I think Firebolt is better in UR Phoenix) Wrenn and Six (Pretty good chance here, it's powerful and a good enabler) Kaya's Guile (versatile, but in a generally poor color combination) Ice-Fang Coatl (same as Guile, but if there is a snow deck it's probably built on the back of this guy)
Talismans (Better than they're given credit for, I think the RW one has some potential to turn on Blast/Dispatch in a more controlly build possibly with Resto-Kiki combo to ramp into)
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...who exactly are you going to 'i told you so' to? Most of us that I saw trying to get some hype up for ourselves in this set did so because we see Modern as toxic, Wizards as hands off, and want a reset of the top decks.
In the scenario Horizon's does not accomplish this, you are going to 'told you so' to the same people who are disappointed that their own desires are not met?
Spirits
I still don't see the negativity for the set in general. I can see why BGx players can be a bit frustrated, but at the same time, the set overall seems quite impactfull so let's drop the "if it sucks the join the club" camp for a bit. Heck, we've been discussing tricolored snow decks! So far things look promising.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Honestly my ONLY gripe is how GY loaded it is, when I glance over at the 'Yeah Main Deck Surgical with RIP, Leylines, and Relic's in the Side' format that we all know and love.
If ever present GY hate was not a thing, I would be FULL STEAM into a Snap heavy Snow BUG. I'm probably going to throw a few hundred away on it regardless.
Spirits
I am disappointed there was no Crystalline Sliver or functional reprint with hexproof. The First Sliver is not a great card advntage engine. Dormant Sliver isn't really relevant, but a cheap Scry or Explore Sliver would have been nice. A loaming shaman or another graveyard dealing sliver would have been possible. A Cursecatcher-esque or thalia-esque sliver would have been nice to.
There are some combo opportunities with the new Boros Recknoer Sliver (with Psionic Sliver), Unearth Sliver, or Rummage Sliver, but all-in-all these are roleplayers and don't really help it become tier 2 even. Even the Boros Sliver replaces Blur Sliver and that just makes the deck lower to the ground. It doesn't help protect. There might be a combo sliver build out there with intruder alarm or something similar, with some of these new ones, but I can't really seem power up either a Fast Sliver deck all that much (with a humans esque mana base) or the current CoCo/Vial build.
All-in-all disappointed from a modern slivers player perspective or even a legacy Sliver player's perspective.
Spirits
We have similar lords to Merfolk although lack the ability to really interact with the opponents stack and boardstate with spells/specific utility merfolk (trickser/hibernation), but can get faster with better defensive utility with regeneration, blink, firstrike, lifegain.
We have similar lords to Spirits, but lack their ability to interact with the stack and play at flash speeds, but are bigger, faster, with better combat tricks.
We can have similar explosive boardstate to Elves with mana slivers, but lack combo finish and pure speed.
We have interesting utility like Humans although more difficult to get tall and can't interact with the stack or opponent.
Slivers is an interesting tribe. In many ways, we currently play like a hybrid between merfolk and elves with explosive power with tricky aspects. Our most powerful position is in defensive strategy. We can grind it out with Sliver Hive and a few other slivers and can answer most things on a battlefield although slowly. We struggle with doing it proactively. We just lack proactive solutiosn to problem. Elves have speed/combo. Humans with Freebooter/meedling mage. Merfolk have blue spells and great ETB utility. Spirits has Flash and Stack Interaction.
Slivers is fine probably in a pure control or aggro meta where it can leverage trickery/grinding ability with the best on the battlefied keywords. Mana Struggles and lack of proactive solutions to modern's problems (outside of some sideboard cards) inhibits the deck's ability to move forward a little.
Slivers plays best on the battlefield and you gotta be faster (Elves) or have someway to proactively disrupt through the stack while adding to the battlefield and yet slivers are best when reactive and when boardstates could get gummed up.
As to make it a better thing, it could stall out the game and grind out value which is where Explore/Scry/Hexproof could be valuable where while presenting a reasonable clock. Provoke could be a way to deal with pesky creatures either suiciding or with first strike to get them out of the way.
In Legacy Slivers exist as a decent aggro deck (for as much as pure aggro decks work in legacy) thanks to Crystalline Sliver. In some ways, I guess Slivers could supplant or shift what Spirits do just on the battlefield level.
It could try to become more of a combo deck with interesting ways to do that, but better protection and filtering would help me with a control style build
For just aggro Slivers, provoke would be good. It would solidfy that Slivers are the best on combat tribe and provide ways to achieve that state.
I'll bite.
What would it take to NOT be a 'Standard Set'.
Spirits
Frozen Snow-Swamp
Snow Island Swamp
Tap: 1
Tap: U or B - Use this to only cast Snow
Something like that?
I'm at the point where I want to put in some shocks/checks, but I dont want to nerf the Snow Count too much.
Spirits
It would only work if you would reword it into: "Coloured Mana produced from this land can only be used to cast Snow Covered cards or activate Snow Covered Abilities"
And even than, they won't print just half of the land cycle (so only 5 of them), so they won't get printed in that set (if ever at all). Though, they could do a Snow cover Rainbow land, which can generate any coloured mana for Snow Permanents/Abilities and otherwise just C.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
"Reveal a Dragon"
2BB
sorcery
Affinity for Snow
Target player discards two cards at random.
the price tag isnt doing any favors either. its like they set up a product thats good for stores to open and sell the singles, cause who else wants to foot the bill for a bunch of cards not very relevant in the format you are playing. also, no matter how good the draft format is, people arent just gonna jam it regularly when it costs twice as much; not to mention core 2020 is right on the heels of its release.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Tons of cards in this set are going to Top 8 GP/PT's over the next year and we STILL have cards left to go...
Which tons? Legit curious as I dont see a lot that are going to slot into power decks.
Spirits
As a predominantly UBx player I'm not high on seeing White get more good things, but I do like this card. Could have been BG.
"Reveal a Dragon"
Horizon Lands
Prismatic Vista
Archmage's Charm
Force cycle (mostly UG)
Step-mom
Fluster will probably show up in lists (0-1)
Collector Ouphe
On Thin Ice (1-2 UW Control and lots of other fringe decks)
Plague Engineer
Tribute Mage
Pillage
Scale Up
Ore-Scale Guardian (This is being slept on for UR phoenix)
One's I'm less confident will be T8, but have a decent shot:
Ranger-Captain of Eos (If in humans will show up, but boosts power of a lot of fringe decks)
Unearth
Regrowth (JAC? Potential)
Eladamri's Call (Neoform, Naya Breach, we'll see)
FoF (1 of UWx, better in UB, storm SB?)
Goblin Engineer (who knows here...)
Urza (Potentially busted, or a non-player)
Seasoned Pyromancer (Will see play, but not sure how prevalent)
Lava Dart (Mono-Red Phoenix, I think Firebolt is better in UR Phoenix)
Wrenn and Six (Pretty good chance here, it's powerful and a good enabler)
Kaya's Guile (versatile, but in a generally poor color combination)
Ice-Fang Coatl (same as Guile, but if there is a snow deck it's probably built on the back of this guy)
Talismans (Better than they're given credit for, I think the RW one has some potential to turn on Blast/Dispatch in a more controlly build possibly with Resto-Kiki combo to ramp into)