I wonder if they'll come up with a new interesting mana-fixing land, maybe something like:
Reverse-scry Realm Legendary Land t: Add , if you do, each opponent may scry 1. t: Add one mana of any color, if you do, each opponent may scry 3.
I really hope they do some interesting things with sorcery and enchantment card types in particular, a lot of those are harder to get modern viable ones through standard, due to lack of proper hate in mono-colored decks for enchantments, and for sorcery spells, just power level for the mana cost differences in how it works compared to instant speed spells in modern compared to standard. Planeswalkers, creatures, lands, and instants all seem to make it through to modern with current standard design principles much easier, although I could be wrong.
I'm also wondering about how much multi-color will be in the set. I actually hope they lean on mono-colored and are relatively light on the multi-colored stuff, even if I do want some nice multi-colored stuff, like, say, enemy 'command' spells (Kolaghan's Command being an ally color example).
I also hope they do some fun stuff with creature types on the creatures that aren't specifically designed to slot into specific tribal decks, playing around with more rarely seen creature types and getting good art for them and doing interesting art and flavor for it that might be more rarely seen in standard or upcoming Standard sets that are more flavor restrictive (due to specific worlds) or more generic fantasy (for semi-beginner products like core sets).
That land would be one of the worst lands ever printed. The only redeeming factor is that you made it legendary so some poor sap couldn’t have 2 in play to really screw him or herself so royally. Mana Confluence is so much less of a downside than sculpting your opponent’s hand when tapping mana.
That land would be one of the worst lands ever printed. The only redeeming factor is that you made it legendary so some poor sap couldn’t have 2 in play to really screw him or herself so royally. Mana Confluence is so much less of a downside than sculpting your opponent’s hand when tapping mana.
That is true for the vast majority of decks, but there are potential decks out there that play cards like, say Temple Bell. Of course, those kind of decks tend to only actually work against certain kinds of opposing decks, so it's a rather extreme meta call, and probably a bad decision anyway. I guess I should have thought harder and tried to figure out a different sort of land idea to use as an example.
I do think we'll also see something that rivals Tarmogoyf as a 2 drop creature that can start off large and get larger if certain conditions are met that require some build around... This is my best guess:
Domainogoyf1G (M)
Trample Domain-- ~ gets +1/+1 for each basic land type amongst lands you control.
1/1
This would force a deck to be 3-5 colors, but potentially a large payoff on turn 2 or 3. That creature is meant to just be an example, although I think it would be a fair card.
I think that "goyf" would go nicely in tribal flames zoo kind of decks as a budget tarmo or tarmo 5-8.
That land would be one of the worst lands ever printed. The only redeeming factor is that you made it legendary so some poor sap couldn’t have 2 in play to really screw him or herself so royally. Mana Confluence is so much less of a downside than sculpting your opponent’s hand when tapping mana.
That is true for the vast majority of decks, but there are potential decks out there that play cards like, say Temple Bell. Of course, those kind of decks tend to only actually work against certain kinds of opposing decks, so it's a rather extreme meta call, and probably a bad decision anyway. I guess I should have thought harder and tried to figure out a different sort of land idea to use as an example.
Scry 3+ is an effect that has only been printed like 10 times. It’s super powerful.
Something interesting would be like “Tap: Add 1. Target opponent may Scry X. If they do, you add X mana of any color to your mana pool. X cannot be more than 2.”
So you get a colorless mana no matter what, and put your opponent to the test. They can scry up to 2, but that turns your land into a slightly gimped Gilded Lotus. Probably would not be much better than Wastes in most decks, but it could potentially see some play.
Another option might be something like:
“Tap: Add 1. Any player may pay 2 and create a Treasure.”
As the player controlling the effect, you are essentially breaking even because you can use the tap of the land to pay for half the cost and getting a treasure in return, while your opponent can pay for the treasure as well at the same total price. Potentially could give some redundant ramp to decks like Ad Nauseam and help decks that want a lot of artifacts in play but aren’t aggro.
Another option might be something like:
“Tap: Add 1. Any player may pay 2 and create a Treasure.”
As the player controlling the effect, you are essentially breaking even because you can use the tap of the land to pay for half the cost and getting a treasure in return, while your opponent can pay for the treasure as well at the same total price. Potentially could give some redundant ramp to decks like Ad Nauseam and help decks that want a lot of artifacts in play but aren’t aggro.
As a treasure fan I would love to see a card like that. Side Rant: I was so happy when they announced Treasure was becoming deciduous. Hell, Treasure Map is one of my favorite cards, despite the fact I hate playing with transforming cards. So any card that could make Treasures matter in modern would be a plus in my book.
And speaking of lands, another land I would like to see is a better version of Untaidake, the Cloud Keeper. It's obviously powerful, but it either needs some more upside (like adding two mana of any color instead of 2) or less drawbacks. Because even in a deck built to abuse it the card seems to have too many bad qualities to make up for the upside.
I think that "goyf" would go nicely in tribal flames zoo kind of decks as a budget tarmo or tarmo 5-8.
I was always sad that outside of Block Constructed, Kavu Predator in a deck with Tarmogoyf, Grove of the Burnwillows, Fiery Justice, among others never made it. I have my Kavu Predators ready; all 10 of them.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
The kavu is often a budget goyf, and when tarmo itself is not doing good in the format.. then the kavu would be not hot as well. I have seen some sweet legacy kavu predator lists.. have been tempted a bit to try and build a modern version of them, then put in 4 tarmo for some more muscle..... sadly, not possible for me to build those decks anymore because don't have funds to buy burnwillows, and have sold all my horizon canopies last year.
I've been thinking a bit about modern horizon, and my feeling about it is not too good.
First, before someone jumps in and claim that whatever Wizards does, people will complain, my feeling are based on the very choices Wizards made. Which is that almost all cards will be new cards. This means that the entire supply for those cards will be this set. There are problem with that.
First, normal modern cards come in via standard sets. This means sets that are very widely opened, played in standard, FNM, limited and constructed GPs. Modern horizon OTOH will only be opened by people invested in modern. (Outside of some FNM draft, but I expect that they will be few and will switch back to regular standard sets.) There is a lot of modern players, but not as much as for standard sets. So less cards opened, leading to higher prices.
Second, people who will open modern horizon will be modern players. Just like standard players opening standard product keep these product in their possession for the duration of standard, the modern players opening modern horizon will mostly keep the cards they open. So, less supply on the market, higher prices. Unlike stdandard set that supply inventory when it rotates out, there will be no such flow into modern since MH will not have a rotation out.
Third, the boosters themselves have a higher price to start with.
Fourth, modern is less like standard, it does not have a steady flow of new sets coming out, creating new decks and pushing decks out.
Add this all together at I think it will lead to MH cards having a higher starting price than usual standard set and that price won't come down much. Thus, I don't think MH will do anything to make modern more affordable.
...
Thus, I don't think MH will do anything to make modern more affordable.
i mean this was kind of a given once wizards revealed there wouldnt be any modern-legal reprints in the set. maybe a missed opportunity, a bungle, or whatever but affordability or card accessibility obviously isnt the intent for this set. remember that horizons was conceived and developed during the period where wizards believed masters sets were still going to be around (with 2 more in the works beyond UMA - aka immortal masters).
yeah wizards probably has less than altruistic intentions because they wanna sell more, however im not going to begrudge a certain amount of what you describe going on as long as it is in moderation. the horizons set acronym MH1 implies that it could become a series meaning subsequent sets could deal with reprints of any newly designed cards.
ill admit that im wary of the outcome of this set, and have expressed views about coldly rebuilding 'reprint equity' at the expense of the health of the format and playerbase in other threads; however i think its worth reserving judgement until spoilers happen.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I also think most reprints of legacy cards will be cards that don't see play in legacy, are too strong for standard, and will probably be good enough in modern, precisely like fact or fiction, fire//ice, moment's peace, etc. Goblin lackey for example is a possibility because goblins are not even played in legacy anymore, right?
Fact or Fiction is an iconic card and is probably on the level of the best reprints we'll see, but unless explicitly stated, I believe the buy-a-box promo card will be something completely new with mythic rarity. There have been some attempts at printing cards similar to Fact or Fiction (Steam Augury comes to my mind) and they've seen zero play. Why not have the original?
If as I read somewhere Cabal Therapist is among top10 cards of the expansion, I wouldn't get too hyped with it. I'd be less surprised if they accidentally print something already released as a Timeshifted card than if I have to buy 10 playsets of cards from Horizons.
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Currently sleeved: WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
Fact or Fiction is an iconic card and is probably on the level of the best reprints we'll see, but unless explicitly stated, I believe the buy-a-box promo card will be something completely new with mythic rarity. There have been some attempts at printing cards similar to Fact or Fiction (Steam Augury comes to my mind) and they've seen zero play. Why not have the original?
If as I read somewhere Cabal Therapist is among top10 cards of the expansion, I wouldn't get too hyped with it. I'd be less surprised if they accidentally print something already released as a Timeshifted card than if I have to buy 10 playsets of cards from Horizons.
it was stated on the announcement stream that the buy a box promo will be a new-to-modern reprint.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I think it may be opening up a new can of worms to Modern. They may avoid it because of that. On a similar note, I am starting to agree with those that said Council's Judgmentwon't be in Modern Horizons because of the wording. I do now believe that Wizards will avoid that "mechanic."
On another note, with the new Liliana's Triumph, do you guys/girls think that Diabolic Edict and Innocent Blood are out? Or does this mean that Innocent Blood is in? Innocent Blood is indeed a powerful card likely to help something like 8 Rack. It's not something to necessarily be scared of though.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
at this point diabolic edict, while thought to be a very reasonable/likely inclusion in horizons, is mostly irrelevant since its not as if decks need more than 4x of such an effect. if it ends up showing up i would just chalk it up to a lack of or mis-communication between the teams working on each set (tbh i have no idea how their team system works).
if we give wizards the credit and believe it was planned out however many months or years ago then i think its a good sign for innocent blood (as in purposefully excluding d-edict knowing it will get a 'reprint' so that slot is open). liliana's triumph is a declaration that diabolic edict isnt too good for standard, so i cant see how innocent blood is too good for modern.
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I also think most reprints of legacy cards will be cards that don't see play in legacy, are too strong for standard, and will probably be good enough in modern, precisely like fact or fiction, fire//ice, moment's peace, etc. Goblin lackey for example is a possibility because goblins are not even played in legacy anymore, right?
FoF is obviously a very powerful card but it's funny, at 4 mana you're already playing supreme verdict (or wrath of god/settle), cryptic and jace. The 4 slot is very busy it seems hard for FoF to actually replaces those spells. Also if you're playing the terminus UW build glimmer is surely better because the scry/draw allows the setup of miracles on opponents turn. I could be completely wrong but it just feels too slow even for modern.
Generally speaking cards that are not good enough for legacy are also not good enough for modern in my opinion. The legacy reprints have got to be cards like swords, counterspell, baleful strix and the like. As long as it's not fast mana, a free spell or enabling a degenerate combo I see no reason they wouldn't give it a try. I'd rather they go too OP and have to ban something than play it safe a make an entire set of cards modern legal and have nothing change.
I think people are focusing way too much on the 50ish reprints and not nearly enough on the 200ish new cards.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I think people are focusing way too much on the 50ish reprints and not nearly enough on the 200ish new cards.
That's probably true, especially in terms of what cards will actually have impact on Modern. But we can't really speculate on new cards because they're, well, new.
We can speculate as to what reprints we'll get.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
I think people are focusing way too much on the 50ish reprints and not nearly enough on the 200ish new cards.
Outside of the pool of old characters that otherwise ended up in commander products and toned-down versions of cards too strong to be actually reprinted, there's nothing else that we know about what the new cards will look like. There's a whole thread about the types of effects the players who post there want to see, which is about as good as we'll get right now.
I'm definitely not expecting much in the terms of reprints. WOTC is adamant in denouncing many of the mistakes of the past. If we get something good, it will likely be an accident, or an incredibly generous gift. I am instead expecting almost all the new cards to be "fixed" versions of old cards, most of which will probably be needlessly stapled onto creatures or Planeswalkers.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
Reverse-scry Realm
Legendary Land
t: Add , if you do, each opponent may scry 1.
t: Add one mana of any color, if you do, each opponent may scry 3.
I really hope they do some interesting things with sorcery and enchantment card types in particular, a lot of those are harder to get modern viable ones through standard, due to lack of proper hate in mono-colored decks for enchantments, and for sorcery spells, just power level for the mana cost differences in how it works compared to instant speed spells in modern compared to standard. Planeswalkers, creatures, lands, and instants all seem to make it through to modern with current standard design principles much easier, although I could be wrong.
I'm also wondering about how much multi-color will be in the set. I actually hope they lean on mono-colored and are relatively light on the multi-colored stuff, even if I do want some nice multi-colored stuff, like, say, enemy 'command' spells (Kolaghan's Command being an ally color example).
I also hope they do some fun stuff with creature types on the creatures that aren't specifically designed to slot into specific tribal decks, playing around with more rarely seen creature types and getting good art for them and doing interesting art and flavor for it that might be more rarely seen in standard or upcoming Standard sets that are more flavor restrictive (due to specific worlds) or more generic fantasy (for semi-beginner products like core sets).
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
That is true for the vast majority of decks, but there are potential decks out there that play cards like, say Temple Bell. Of course, those kind of decks tend to only actually work against certain kinds of opposing decks, so it's a rather extreme meta call, and probably a bad decision anyway. I guess I should have thought harder and tried to figure out a different sort of land idea to use as an example.
Maybe tone it down a bit to producing colorless without penalty, and making opponent scry 3 to just scry 2?
I think that "goyf" would go nicely in tribal flames zoo kind of decks as a budget tarmo or tarmo 5-8.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Scry 3+ is an effect that has only been printed like 10 times. It’s super powerful.
Something interesting would be like “Tap: Add 1. Target opponent may Scry X. If they do, you add X mana of any color to your mana pool. X cannot be more than 2.”
So you get a colorless mana no matter what, and put your opponent to the test. They can scry up to 2, but that turns your land into a slightly gimped Gilded Lotus. Probably would not be much better than Wastes in most decks, but it could potentially see some play.
Another option might be something like:
“Tap: Add 1. Any player may pay 2 and create a Treasure.”
As the player controlling the effect, you are essentially breaking even because you can use the tap of the land to pay for half the cost and getting a treasure in return, while your opponent can pay for the treasure as well at the same total price. Potentially could give some redundant ramp to decks like Ad Nauseam and help decks that want a lot of artifacts in play but aren’t aggro.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
As a treasure fan I would love to see a card like that. Side Rant: I was so happy when they announced Treasure was becoming deciduous. Hell, Treasure Map is one of my favorite cards, despite the fact I hate playing with transforming cards. So any card that could make Treasures matter in modern would be a plus in my book.
And speaking of lands, another land I would like to see is a better version of Untaidake, the Cloud Keeper. It's obviously powerful, but it either needs some more upside (like adding two mana of any color instead of 2) or less drawbacks. Because even in a deck built to abuse it the card seems to have too many bad qualities to make up for the upside.
I was always sad that outside of Block Constructed, Kavu Predator in a deck with Tarmogoyf, Grove of the Burnwillows, Fiery Justice, among others never made it. I have my Kavu Predators ready; all 10 of them.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
First, before someone jumps in and claim that whatever Wizards does, people will complain, my feeling are based on the very choices Wizards made. Which is that almost all cards will be new cards. This means that the entire supply for those cards will be this set. There are problem with that.
First, normal modern cards come in via standard sets. This means sets that are very widely opened, played in standard, FNM, limited and constructed GPs. Modern horizon OTOH will only be opened by people invested in modern. (Outside of some FNM draft, but I expect that they will be few and will switch back to regular standard sets.) There is a lot of modern players, but not as much as for standard sets. So less cards opened, leading to higher prices.
Second, people who will open modern horizon will be modern players. Just like standard players opening standard product keep these product in their possession for the duration of standard, the modern players opening modern horizon will mostly keep the cards they open. So, less supply on the market, higher prices. Unlike stdandard set that supply inventory when it rotates out, there will be no such flow into modern since MH will not have a rotation out.
Third, the boosters themselves have a higher price to start with.
Fourth, modern is less like standard, it does not have a steady flow of new sets coming out, creating new decks and pushing decks out.
Add this all together at I think it will lead to MH cards having a higher starting price than usual standard set and that price won't come down much. Thus, I don't think MH will do anything to make modern more affordable.
i mean this was kind of a given once wizards revealed there wouldnt be any modern-legal reprints in the set. maybe a missed opportunity, a bungle, or whatever but affordability or card accessibility obviously isnt the intent for this set. remember that horizons was conceived and developed during the period where wizards believed masters sets were still going to be around (with 2 more in the works beyond UMA - aka immortal masters).
yeah wizards probably has less than altruistic intentions because they wanna sell more, however im not going to begrudge a certain amount of what you describe going on as long as it is in moderation. the horizons set acronym MH1 implies that it could become a series meaning subsequent sets could deal with reprints of any newly designed cards.
ill admit that im wary of the outcome of this set, and have expressed views about coldly rebuilding 'reprint equity' at the expense of the health of the format and playerbase in other threads; however i think its worth reserving judgement until spoilers happen.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)If as I read somewhere Cabal Therapist is among top10 cards of the expansion, I wouldn't get too hyped with it. I'd be less surprised if they accidentally print something already released as a Timeshifted card than if I have to buy 10 playsets of cards from Horizons.
Currently sleeved:
WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
it was stated on the announcement stream that the buy a box promo will be a new-to-modern reprint.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Palace Jailer, Queen Marchesa etc.
I think it may be opening up a new can of worms to Modern. They may avoid it because of that. On a similar note, I am starting to agree with those that said Council's Judgment won't be in Modern Horizons because of the wording. I do now believe that Wizards will avoid that "mechanic."
On another note, with the new Liliana's Triumph, do you guys/girls think that Diabolic Edict and Innocent Blood are out? Or does this mean that Innocent Blood is in? Innocent Blood is indeed a powerful card likely to help something like 8 Rack. It's not something to necessarily be scared of though.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)if we give wizards the credit and believe it was planned out however many months or years ago then i think its a good sign for innocent blood (as in purposefully excluding d-edict knowing it will get a 'reprint' so that slot is open). liliana's triumph is a declaration that diabolic edict isnt too good for standard, so i cant see how innocent blood is too good for modern.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
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FoF is obviously a very powerful card but it's funny, at 4 mana you're already playing supreme verdict (or wrath of god/settle), cryptic and jace. The 4 slot is very busy it seems hard for FoF to actually replaces those spells. Also if you're playing the terminus UW build glimmer is surely better because the scry/draw allows the setup of miracles on opponents turn. I could be completely wrong but it just feels too slow even for modern.
Generally speaking cards that are not good enough for legacy are also not good enough for modern in my opinion. The legacy reprints have got to be cards like swords, counterspell, baleful strix and the like. As long as it's not fast mana, a free spell or enabling a degenerate combo I see no reason they wouldn't give it a try. I'd rather they go too OP and have to ban something than play it safe a make an entire set of cards modern legal and have nothing change.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
That's probably true, especially in terms of what cards will actually have impact on Modern. But we can't really speculate on new cards because they're, well, new.
We can speculate as to what reprints we'll get.
Outside of the pool of old characters that otherwise ended up in commander products and toned-down versions of cards too strong to be actually reprinted, there's nothing else that we know about what the new cards will look like. There's a whole thread about the types of effects the players who post there want to see, which is about as good as we'll get right now.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
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