Lately, Modern community members have expressed interest in talking holistically about the challenges and problems facing Modern. Whether or not Modern has "challenges" or "problems" is up for debate, but what is clear is that people want to talk about all of these issues in one unified setting.
As such, Modern staff are opening this thread as a replacement for the old "Banlist Discussion" thread and the "State of the Meta thread." You can use this thread to talk about any and all of these varied Modern issues and their intersection. This thread will be heavily moderated, so be sure to read the rules before posting; anyone who posts in this thread is assumed to have read and understood these rules.
Allowed topics
Bans, unbans, and all things related to the banlist and banlist policy
Metagame health and diversity
Reprint suggestions and reprint philosophy
New cards and design philosophy
Prices and Modern finance
Archetype definitions
Format health, successes, and challenges
Anything that constructively relates to these different issues
Here are some reasons that cards are banned in Modern:
Some cards enable a top tier deck to consistently win on turn 3 or earlier. Because this violates the "turn 4" rule of the format, the following cards have been banned:
Other cards have been banned because they make certain decks too consistent/reliable and thus stagnate the format. Here are some examples of these cards:
Some cards, currently only one, are banned because they were just mistakes. This card is one of the most broken cards of all time and has been banned in almost every format where it was or is legal:
There are also some cards that were banned for logistical reasons. These cards made tournaments last too long and were banned to make events run smoother. They were not necessarily banned for power reasons.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I am a bit surprised myself that instead of neutering the deck by getting of small components to make the deck run smoothly, they killed the deck completely.
I just don't get the logic of comparing SFM, a Legacy staple 2 drop, with Ancestral Vision, Bitterblossom, Sword (all fringe playables at best in Legacy) or even worse comparing it with 4 mana cards.
I just don't get the logic of comparing SFM, a Legacy staple 2 drop, with Ancestral Vision, Bitterblossom, Sword (all fringe playables at best in Legacy) or even worse comparing it with 4 mana cards.
Because Legacy has Umezawa's Jitte and Force of Will, two cards that make SFM much more playable?
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I can sort of understand the thought process of killing the deck, even though I played and enjoyed it. If they hit Wellspring, which I've gone on record suggesting and will continue to stand by as being the more elegant solution, there would have been an off chance that the deck simply slotted in Prophetic Prism, or some other net-0 draw a card Artifact, and still retained the level of success it is currently seeing. Then they'd look mighty foolish and be forced to either kill the deck in two months' time or do an emergency banning to save face. Neither way is good from a confidence standpoint. This way, sure, they kill off what I thought was a really cool and intricate maneuvering of what makes Magic a great game, the complex rules, but they are totally justified in that decision. Everything we've been seeing was pointing towards something needing to be done, and this way they can't be explicitly proven they made the wrong choice. I'm fairly certain Wellspring would have dampened the deck's ability to dig for its pieces and go off so consistently, but it's not my job to convince them otherwise (take a note, Twin apologists). I don't even know if they ever entertained the possibility of touching Wellspring (if someone who Aaron listens to could ask him, I'd really like to know the answer), but it's entirely likely they only considered the three cards they mentioned, which honestly is fine, even if it kind of indicates no one in the Committee was a practiced pilot of the deck.
The tweets about UWr not playing SFM are good to see; hopefully there's the same level of learning from the community, and we get to see the wrongly imprisoned Kor free once more.
Plenty of tweets dunking on Wizards logic with SFM, but I still see people saying its too good. I dont get it, at all.
Similar to Jace, a bit of apprehension from a past Standard. A lot of players started around Zendikar and the whole Cawblade saga left a sour taste in their mouths. People are more likely to remember a negative experience and act accordingly.
Another is simply aggro players hiding behind the poor disguise of "Stoneforge Mystics limits future design." Turn 3 a Batterskull and you could almost hear the 90's dial-up sound in their head.
The Aaron forsythe quote means we are probably having no unbans during 2019.
Actually if it follows the pattern last time Aaron said something dumb about a card it'll be unbanned next announcement
re: Sword of the meek (making lantern control oppressive since never)
Indeed so.
Anyway. Subtract KCI from our collective experience, and Modern remains what Modern was for the last 6 Months. Nothing else will change with the removal of KCI, because its meta share was negligible anyway. You still need artifact and GY hate, and there are still 6+ decks waiting to beat you on Turn 3 or 4.
If you didnt like Modern before the ban, nothing changes today.
I find this article alarming though, because my world view is so wildly different from theirs and they all seem so sure of themselves.
Ari makes a subtle point with the inclusion of Wilderness Reclamation in his answer, and the success already being seen with Bant Draw Go on this forum.
That card is a mistake, have no doubts about it.
EDIT:
A question to the thread, based on that SCG article.
"Are deck building restrictions to account for a deck a viable reason to keep a card banned?"
I just don't get the logic of comparing SFM, a Legacy staple 2 drop, with Ancestral Vision, Bitterblossom, Sword (all fringe playables at best in Legacy) or even worse comparing it with 4 mana cards.
Modern is not legacy. If you dont understand try to find Delver in modern
I just don't get the logic of comparing SFM, a Legacy staple 2 drop, with Ancestral Vision, Bitterblossom, Sword (all fringe playables at best in Legacy) or even worse comparing it with 4 mana cards.
Modern is not legacy. If you dont understand try to find Delver in modern
Simply load up UB Shadow, the differences between Legacy and Modern become obvious very quickly.
Oh hey didn't see that Aaron actually Tweeted about that. Yeah that's not a great sign.
Yeah, going to go farm up some Gold/Packs/Wildcards in Arena I suppose there's nothing coming out of the ban list, ever.
As pokken pointed out, Forsythe made a similarly outrageous statement regarding Sword of the Meek and then unbanned it a few months later. That said, I too am worried that Wizards is overly conservative with unbans in a format that they don't fully understand or experience as most players do. It's great that he explicitly engaged the SFM issue, as this will spark more conversation and hopefully push R&D to reconsider.
I just don't get the logic of comparing SFM, a Legacy staple 2 drop, with Ancestral Vision, Bitterblossom, Sword (all fringe playables at best in Legacy) or even worse comparing it with 4 mana cards.
You have to take into account the different contexts for SFM in Legacy vs. SFM in Modern. First of all, there's no Jitte in Modern, and that's a HUGE difference in power level for the card. There's also no TNN to suit up, which is another big difference. Thirdly, there is a lot more creature removal and artifact hate in Modern because of decks like Affinity and Hardened Scales. Finally, Modern is much less about card advantage and grinding, and more about tempo. This is the same reason why Jace is way worse in Modern than he is in Legacy. What SFM does in Legacy has next to no application to what it would do in Modern.
The Aaron forsythe quote means we are probably having no unbans during 2019.
Not necessarily. The last time he made this bad of a take on a banned card was when he thought Sword of the Meek would go into Lantern, and the twitter army so vehemently disagreed with him that it obviously changed his mind and the card was unbanned soon after.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Yeah, I would absolutely love to get a "meet the team" with the B&R Committee, but I feel that would just give the grumbling masses faces and excuses to berate them for not checking off their wishlists. I'm just curious as to how much of each format the members actually play, and how much of these decisions are just cold hard numbers. It's really hard to justify unbannings if you're never actually playtesting with said cards.
Lately, Modern community members have expressed interest in talking holistically about the challenges and problems facing Modern. Whether or not Modern has "challenges" or "problems" is up for debate, but what is clear is that people want to talk about all of these issues in one unified setting.
As such, Modern staff are opening this thread as a replacement for the old "Banlist Discussion" thread and the "State of the Meta thread." You can use this thread to talk about any and all of these varied Modern issues and their intersection. This thread will be heavily moderated, so be sure to read the rules before posting; anyone who posts in this thread is assumed to have read and understood these rules.
Allowed topics
Prohibited topics and behavior
The mod team will strictly enforce these rules. Please make this a place where people are unafraid to post constructive thoughts.
Update from the January 21, 2019 B&R Announcement:
Krark-Clan Ironworks is banned.
Next B&R Announcement:
March 11, 2019
Current DCI Modern Banned List
Here are some reasons that cards are banned in Modern:
Second Sunrise
The following are links to WotC's in-depth explanations as to why cards have or have not gotten banned since the beginning of the format:
Krark-Clan Ironworks is banned
Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Bloodbraid Elf unbanned
October 2017: No changes
March 2017: No changes
Gitaxian Probe and Golgari Grave-Troll are banned
Eye of Ugin banned, Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek unbanned
Summer Bloom and Splinter Twin banned
Birthing Pod/Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time banned, Golgari Grave-Troll unbanned
Bitterblossom/Nacatl unbanned. DRS banned
Addition of Second Sunrise
Addition of Bloodbraid Elf and Seething Song
Removal of Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3rd Banned List change with explanations
2nd Banned List change with explanations
1st Banned List change with explanations
Community Cup Announcement with the Initial Ban List.
Old threads:
26/11/2018 - 21/01/2019
01/10/2018 - 26/11/2018
08/20/2018 - 01/10/2018
07/02/2018 - 08/20/2018
04/16/2018 - 07/02/2018
02/10/2018 - 04/16/2018
01/15/2017 - 02/10/2018
10/27/2017 - 01/15/2017
7/18/2017 - 10/27/2017
3/23/2017 - 4/24/2017
3/13/2017 - 3/23/2017
1/9/17 Banlist Update
12/8/2016 - 3/13/2017
9/28/2016 - 12/10/2016
7/18/2016 - 9/30/2016
4/4/2016 - 7/18/2016
1/16/2016 - 4/4/2016
7/13/2015 - 1/16/2016
1/19/2015 - 7/13/2015
7/14/2014 - 1/19/2015
2/9/2014 - 7/14/2014
1/20/2014 - 2/10/2014
6/23/2014 - 1/20/2014
4/22/2013 - 6/23/213
1/27/2013 - 4/22/13
9/20/2012 - 1/27/2013
7/19/2012 - 9/20/2012
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
THE first nail in the SFM delusion mania
I understand the ban, and KCI was a powerful deck, but rarely do they just nuke a deck.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Plenty of tweets dunking on Wizards logic with SFM, but I still see people saying its too good. I dont get it, at all.
Spirits
Because Legacy has Umezawa's Jitte and Force of Will, two cards that make SFM much more playable?
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
The tweets about UWr not playing SFM are good to see; hopefully there's the same level of learning from the community, and we get to see the wrongly imprisoned Kor free once more.
Similar to Jace, a bit of apprehension from a past Standard. A lot of players started around Zendikar and the whole Cawblade saga left a sour taste in their mouths. People are more likely to remember a negative experience and act accordingly.
Another is simply aggro players hiding behind the poor disguise of "Stoneforge Mystics limits future design." Turn 3 a Batterskull and you could almost hear the 90's dial-up sound in their head.
WOTC showing they have no idea how this game actually works, and literally blindly follow numbers.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Actually if it follows the pattern last time Aaron said something dumb about a card it'll be unbanned next announcement
re: Sword of the meek (making lantern control oppressive since never)
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Indeed so.
Anyway. Subtract KCI from our collective experience, and Modern remains what Modern was for the last 6 Months. Nothing else will change with the removal of KCI, because its meta share was negligible anyway. You still need artifact and GY hate, and there are still 6+ decks waiting to beat you on Turn 3 or 4.
If you didnt like Modern before the ban, nothing changes today.
I find this article alarming though, because my world view is so wildly different from theirs and they all seem so sure of themselves.
http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/38219_Modern-Banned-And-Restricted-Announcement-Debate.html
Ari makes a subtle point with the inclusion of Wilderness Reclamation in his answer, and the success already being seen with Bant Draw Go on this forum.
That card is a mistake, have no doubts about it.
EDIT:
A question to the thread, based on that SCG article.
"Are deck building restrictions to account for a deck a viable reason to keep a card banned?"
Spirits
Yeah, going to go farm up some Gold/Packs/Wildcards in Arena I suppose there's nothing coming out of the ban list, ever.
Spirits
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Simply load up UB Shadow, the differences between Legacy and Modern become obvious very quickly.
Spirits
As pokken pointed out, Forsythe made a similarly outrageous statement regarding Sword of the Meek and then unbanned it a few months later. That said, I too am worried that Wizards is overly conservative with unbans in a format that they don't fully understand or experience as most players do. It's great that he explicitly engaged the SFM issue, as this will spark more conversation and hopefully push R&D to reconsider.
I'm personally hoping for a Dark Depths unban, because it's not even that strong compared to:
-)insert combo deck killing you on turn 3
-) would boost fair decks
-) we have more answers with Field of Ruin than in the past
You have to take into account the different contexts for SFM in Legacy vs. SFM in Modern. First of all, there's no Jitte in Modern, and that's a HUGE difference in power level for the card. There's also no TNN to suit up, which is another big difference. Thirdly, there is a lot more creature removal and artifact hate in Modern because of decks like Affinity and Hardened Scales. Finally, Modern is much less about card advantage and grinding, and more about tempo. This is the same reason why Jace is way worse in Modern than he is in Legacy. What SFM does in Legacy has next to no application to what it would do in Modern.
Not necessarily. The last time he made this bad of a take on a banned card was when he thought Sword of the Meek would go into Lantern, and the twitter army so vehemently disagreed with him that it obviously changed his mind and the card was unbanned soon after.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Didn't he say something like: "wouldn't Sword make Lantern obnoxious?"