on another note that is 4 out of 5 guild mechanics known. if wizards intends to keep RNA symmetrical with GRN it means azorius should get detain or forecast.
Don't have the link on me right now but MaRo confirmed on Blogatog that Adapt was the 'returning' mechanic by virtue of being tweaked Monstrosity. Knowing this, it seems that Azorius will get an entirely new mechanic.
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Vorthos-y Johnny. All will be One
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
Spellbreaker is a bad card. In what subpar deck can we play it anyway ? Zoo wouldn't play a 3-drop unless it's super broken. Loxodon Smiter probably still better. Mantis Rider still better, Steal Leaf Champion still better...
Although I completely agree the Spellbreaker lacks a shell it certainly isn't a bad card. I think all things considered in a vacuum I would probably rate it as a stronger card than Steal Leaf Champion and Loxodon Smiter at the very least. It is an incredibly nasty and aggressive T2 or T3 card to play into your opponent leaving mana open for removal. It basically leaves them with the choice of taking a massive tempo hit and not casting their removal this turn or they have to waste it on a small fry instead of your juicy T3 drop which incidentally can be given haste to beat face immediately. Played on curve this is a very hard card to deal with in an aggro build.
Do I think this is going to be some modern format warping creature, no. But it's far from being bad and may even find some fringe use in the older formats. In standard if we see a competitive aggressive beat down deck in these colors this will be one of the cards in that deck.
yeah sure the cards effect has some utility, and riot in all its simplicity is a pretty scary aggro mechanic. however the supporting context to give some framework of what some RGx aggro deck might look like in standard isnt there yet, let alone competing on modern's turf. for example the idea of rug coco that was brought up, interesting to think about but there is no substance because nothing remotely like that has proven to be playable. you are building from scratch with the premise that a coco hitting stuff like a 3/4 (possibly a 2/3) goyf + knuckleblade is something to look forward to.
a nasty turn 3 curveout? lessening the value, not even stopping, an opponents turn 3 removal? its like im listening to starving people fantasizing about eating dirt lol
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
It's not great in aggro decks since you could cast an extra 1-drop for the price of casting Commune (this is true of every other creature cantrip, e.g. Oath of Nissa, Adventurous Impulse and aforementioned Commune with Nature), but it's better in combo decks, especially when both halves are creatures. Hint: our boi Deceiver Exarch and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker are both creatures.
What other good creature combos in blue (but not green) are there?
I mean it finds creatures doesn't do much for blue and the removal aspect.
3 CMC to exile one creature and give your opponent a 3/3 sounds good for EDH but garbage removal.
As for Addendum strength is based totally on the power of individual cards ie how cheap and good without that bonus ability, and how strong with the bonus ability and so far not impressed. Main Phase for 2 Life? SMFH.
yeah sure the cards effect has some utility, and riot in all its simplicity is a pretty scary aggro mechanic. however the supporting context to give some framework of what some RGx aggro deck might look like in standard isnt there yet, let alone competing on modern's turf. for example the idea of rug coco that was brought up, interesting to think about but there is no substance because nothing remotely like that has proven to be playable. you are building from scratch with the premise that a coco hitting stuff like a 3/4 (possibly a 2/3) goyf + knuckleblade is something to look forward to.
a nasty turn 3 curveout? lessening the value, not even stopping, an opponents turn 3 removal? its like im listening to starving people fantasizing about eating dirt lol
If all this card had going for it was the hexproof gimmick then sure, but this critter also happens to have a body that is way above curve, probably in the top 5% of all three drops in addition to the versatility to choose between two different versions of said body. One of those versions even has haste which synergizes with the hexproof mechanic extremely well. Like I said I don't see this becoming some sort of mainstay in tier one modern, but the people blowing this off as trash are way off the mark. By far the things that hurt it most are it's colors and a lack of a home.
How do you guys think the BB in Bedevil will affect its Modern play? I feel like Wizards may have given it BBR instead of 1BR to attempt to make it tougher in Modern to play, but it ends up just hurting its play in Standard much more, right? Maybe I'm off.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
On second thought, it doesn't look that great. Using the Frank Karsten model for top X card probabilities, you need at least 21 creatures for Incubation to hit 90% of the time. The Druid Evolution deck has 23, so that's fine, but decks like Cheeri0s, Kiki or Death's Shadow can't reach such high creature counts.
The suspend version of Restore Balance barely gets 20, taking this ancient list and dropping 4 creatures for Incubations. (To give you an idea of how ancient it is, it has Boom // Bust in the SB to cascade into, a trick which doesn't work now because the card's CMC is 8 and no longer 2 or 6). TBH you really just want to get Gargadon, since your Balances are much stronger when you've blown up all your lands; hitting another suspend creature or SSG is a consolation prize.
That's 21 creatures, which is just enough. The combo doesn't feel consistent since you have only 4 copies of each piece AND you need Ballista or a way to dig for it. I also have no idea how it's going to beat aggro without early interaction.
yeah sure the cards effect has some utility, and riot in all its simplicity is a pretty scary aggro mechanic. however the supporting context to give some framework of what some RGx aggro deck might look like in standard isnt there yet, let alone competing on modern's turf. for example the idea of rug coco that was brought up, interesting to think about but there is no substance because nothing remotely like that has proven to be playable. you are building from scratch with the premise that a coco hitting stuff like a 3/4 (possibly a 2/3) goyf + knuckleblade is something to look forward to.
a nasty turn 3 curveout? lessening the value, not even stopping, an opponents turn 3 removal? its like im listening to starving people fantasizing about eating dirt lol
If all this card had going for it was the hexproof gimmick then sure, but this critter also happens to have a body that is way above curve, probably in the top 5% of all three drops in addition to the versatility to choose between two different versions of said body. One of those versions even has haste which synergizes with the hexproof mechanic extremely well. Like I said I don't see this becoming some sort of mainstay in tier one modern, but the people blowing this off as trash are way off the mark. By far the things that hurt it most are it's colors and a lack of a home.
There is also the fact that traditional Aggro is dead in Modern. I think it's actually dead in any older format. When was the last time you have seen a Zoo deck?
That kind of strategy is not good enough and that's why all the aggressive decks that are being played in Modern have synergies which make them faster and more powerful than they would be with individually good cards. Objectively and without context Gruul Spellbreaker is a better creature than Arcbound Ravager but in the Hardened Scales deck that Ravager will make the Spellbreaker look like a joke.
yeah sure the cards effect has some utility, and riot in all its simplicity is a pretty scary aggro mechanic. however the supporting context to give some framework of what some RGx aggro deck might look like in standard isnt there yet, let alone competing on modern's turf. for example the idea of rug coco that was brought up, interesting to think about but there is no substance because nothing remotely like that has proven to be playable. you are building from scratch with the premise that a coco hitting stuff like a 3/4 (possibly a 2/3) goyf + knuckleblade is something to look forward to.
a nasty turn 3 curveout? lessening the value, not even stopping, an opponents turn 3 removal? its like im listening to starving people fantasizing about eating dirt lol
If all this card had going for it was the hexproof gimmick then sure, but this critter also happens to have a body that is way above curve, probably in the top 5% of all three drops in addition to the versatility to choose between two different versions of said body. One of those versions even has haste which synergizes with the hexproof mechanic extremely well. Like I said I don't see this becoming some sort of mainstay in tier one modern, but the people blowing this off as trash are way off the mark. By far the things that hurt it most are it's colors and a lack of a home.
There is also the fact that traditional Aggro is dead in Modern. I think it's actually dead in any older format. When was the last time you have seen a Zoo deck?
That kind of strategy is not good enough and that's why all the aggressive decks that are being played in Modern have synergies which make them faster and more powerful than they would be with individually good cards. Objectively and without context Gruul Spellbreaker is a better creature than Arcbound Ravager but in the Hardened Scales deck that Ravager will make the Spellbreaker look like a joke.
This is exactly why I pointed out it's not likely to be a tier 1 modern card. Arcbound Ravager remains one of the most powerful creature cards ever printed so of course its not as good as that. That doesn't change the fact that the Spellbreaker is no where near trash level card that some here have erroneously described it as.
It really is a shame about the colors. I think if they were both costed the same I might take the Firewheeler over the Kavu in many cases. I used to play Flametongue back in the day and although it was one of my favorite red creature cards the one toughness and inability to go to the dome was often a real kick in the teeth on that thing. I have a lot of bitter memories of just barely falling short of the win because there was some chump blocker left on the field and no gas left in my hand after dropping my Flametounge. The fact that the Firewheeler can remove a small creature, shock the opponent directly and has enough toughness to swing into chump blockers without fear is pretty sweet.
It's also one of the better answers I have seen printed for low to mid life walker removal. Being able to kill a walker with up to 4 loyalty and leaving a 4/3 body behind is one of the best trade ups I can think of when it comes to killing walkers and certainly one of the most versatile. Even if there are no creatures on the board the Firewheeler still does work.
On the down side it has the problem that most jack of all trades have which is it is a master of none. Sure it can go to the dome but only for 2, it can kill creatures, but only relatively small ones, it can kill walkers but only if they are at 4 or less loyalty and it leaves behind a solid beat stick but certainly not one that is brokenly above curve. Still I think the fact that is does all of these things relatively well and at a good value point on the curve makes it an interesting card. I just wish the colored mana cost wasn't so oppressive.
If by some feat of freakish luck we see some sort aggressive Black/Red mid range deck in standard I think this will be one of it's stars, but that seems incredibly unlikely to me.
It's also one of the better answers I have seen printed for low to mid life walker removal. Being able to kill a walker with up to 4 loyalty and leaving a 4/3 body behind is one of the best trade ups I can think of when it comes to killing walkers and certainly one of the most versatile. Even if there are no creatures on the board the Firewheeler still does work.
Where do you get the up to 4 loyalty? Redirection rule is gone.
It's also one of the better answers I have seen printed for low to mid life walker removal. Being able to kill a walker with up to 4 loyalty and leaving a 4/3 body behind is one of the best trade ups I can think of when it comes to killing walkers and certainly one of the most versatile. Even if there are no creatures on the board the Firewheeler still does work.
Where do you get the up to 4 loyalty? Redirection rule is gone.
Oops! My bad. That was sloppy. I forgot it was only the older cards that targeted players that were given errata to target walkers as well. That makes this card much less shiny.
About Gruul Spellbreaker, I feel like the same applies on Growth Spiral. A card with no good archetype to support is doomed to oblivion. But it doesn't stop there for the gruul ogre.
If one says the card is good "in a vacuum", it means one's standards are obsolete and it's time to update one's expectations.
Mantis Rider is the most direct comparison that comes to mind : they're both 3/3 haste creatures for cmc 3. Mantis is better because flying is stronger than trample, and Humans (which is a good home) is stronger than Warriors / Zoo (all worse homes). It's a pretty darn good indicator for me.
Aggro decks don't run 3-drops to victory because of their 90's stats (cmc + power + toughness + vanilla ability), they must offer something more specific, like synergies, MU role play or disruption. This is where 3-drops win in nowadays Modern format. An example is Stompy with Steal Leaf Champion : the card has unprecedented stats but the deck doesn't make an impact at all. Top curve 3-drops that make an impact are not brute force only, they're rather annoying creatures like Spell Queller, Etched Champion, Reflector Mage, and even Mantis Rider as a role player vs flyers.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned here, but Incubation plays nicely with traverse the ulvenwald by adding both an instant and sorcery to the yard. Makes turn 2 traverse for a creature easier. I've been trying, mostly unsuccessfully, to make a shadow list with toolbox creatures, and this card will help quite a bit.
Turn 1, crack fetch, incubation grab street wraith, and you already have delirium. Turn 2, fetch shock and traverse for and play shadow or tasigur.
the 2 types is certainly nice, and shadow decks DO have issues consistently finding threats. however incubation is still very limited in application. digging 5 isnt a tutor (as much as stirrings haters would like you to believe) and can miss. there is only so much room for replacement/selection effects. obviously you wouldnt drop traverse, so that leaves....bauble? which is also a delirium enabler, and might make you too land light. not to mention the other benefits it gives whereas incubation is dead if you ever care about finding something that isnt a creature.
so it has nice interactions like you point out, but im not sure how it fits that doesnt have the deck break even or possibly being worse off.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
All the talk comparing spellbreaker to mantis rider is new card glasses skewing your analysis.
Mantis Rider is NOT played because a 3/3 flying haste is good enough value for 3 mana in modern. It really isn't. It's played because it's a HUMAN and works well with all the lords and whatnot in the humans deck. If it were not a human, Mantis Rider would see zero play.
Spellbreaker is worse in terms of evasion, worse in terms of type, slightly better in terms of casting cost, slightly better in terms of other effects. But crucially, it lacks any sort of support to make it better than it is in a vacuum. Building a deck to hit this with coco in a world where smiter and knight of the reliquary and others exist is just silly, and its only being talked about because its a new card with a bunch of different abilities stapled to it.
That said, it will probably see standard play if Steel Leaf Champion is somehow not good enough as a turn 3 play in aggro beatdown.
Strictly better commune stapled to a strictly worse beast within is very interesting. Both are powerful effects on their own, and the flexibility means you can't overlook it. If RUG is ever a thing, and it relies on creatures, expect this card to be in the deck.
Well also its only so good cause Settle the best board wipe in Standard has to target. Terminus or say Supreme Verdict don't target. Though granted Deafening Clarion and Ritual of Soot both take out Gruul Spellbreaker so still dubious on how good it is even in Standard.
And yeah Mantis Rider is great cause its Human and it does something unique for Humans ie attacks in the air and can still block.
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Spirits
Ironically, Detain sees practically zero play in Modern, while Forecast is prominently on Proclamation of Rebirth, which actually sees (fringe) play.
Don't have the link on me right now but MaRo confirmed on Blogatog that Adapt was the 'returning' mechanic by virtue of being tweaked Monstrosity. Knowing this, it seems that Azorius will get an entirely new mechanic.
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
Yeah I looked up both in Gatherer, Detain looks at least like something I would want to play around in Limited.
Spirits
Although I completely agree the Spellbreaker lacks a shell it certainly isn't a bad card. I think all things considered in a vacuum I would probably rate it as a stronger card than Steal Leaf Champion and Loxodon Smiter at the very least. It is an incredibly nasty and aggressive T2 or T3 card to play into your opponent leaving mana open for removal. It basically leaves them with the choice of taking a massive tempo hit and not casting their removal this turn or they have to waste it on a small fry instead of your juicy T3 drop which incidentally can be given haste to beat face immediately. Played on curve this is a very hard card to deal with in an aggro build.
Do I think this is going to be some modern format warping creature, no. But it's far from being bad and may even find some fringe use in the older formats. In standard if we see a competitive aggressive beat down deck in these colors this will be one of the cards in that deck.
a nasty turn 3 curveout? lessening the value, not even stopping, an opponents turn 3 removal? its like im listening to starving people fantasizing about eating dirt lol
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)It's not great in aggro decks since you could cast an extra 1-drop for the price of casting Commune (this is true of every other creature cantrip, e.g. Oath of Nissa, Adventurous Impulse and aforementioned Commune with Nature), but it's better in combo decks, especially when both halves are creatures. Hint: our boi Deceiver Exarch and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker are both creatures.
What other good creature combos in blue (but not green) are there?
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
3 CMC to exile one creature and give your opponent a 3/3 sounds good for EDH but garbage removal.
As for Addendum strength is based totally on the power of individual cards ie how cheap and good without that bonus ability, and how strong with the bonus ability and so far not impressed. Main Phase for 2 Life? SMFH.
Not being able to find threats is a weakness that the deck sometimes has
If all this card had going for it was the hexproof gimmick then sure, but this critter also happens to have a body that is way above curve, probably in the top 5% of all three drops in addition to the versatility to choose between two different versions of said body. One of those versions even has haste which synergizes with the hexproof mechanic extremely well. Like I said I don't see this becoming some sort of mainstay in tier one modern, but the people blowing this off as trash are way off the mark. By far the things that hurt it most are it's colors and a lack of a home.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)The suspend version of Restore Balance barely gets 20, taking this ancient list and dropping 4 creatures for Incubations. (To give you an idea of how ancient it is, it has Boom // Bust in the SB to cascade into, a trick which doesn't work now because the card's CMC is 8 and no longer 2 or 6). TBH you really just want to get Gargadon, since your Balances are much stronger when you've blown up all your lands; hitting another suspend creature or SSG is a consolation prize.
For Grand Architect I was goldfishing this pile:
4 Walking Ballista
4 Pili-Pala
4 Grand Architect
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tempest Djinn
2 Spellskite
4 Remand
3 Cryptic Command
4 Serum Visions
4 Incubation // Incongruity
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
There is also the fact that traditional Aggro is dead in Modern. I think it's actually dead in any older format. When was the last time you have seen a Zoo deck?
That kind of strategy is not good enough and that's why all the aggressive decks that are being played in Modern have synergies which make them faster and more powerful than they would be with individually good cards. Objectively and without context Gruul Spellbreaker is a better creature than Arcbound Ravager but in the Hardened Scales deck that Ravager will make the Spellbreaker look like a joke.
This is exactly why I pointed out it's not likely to be a tier 1 modern card. Arcbound Ravager remains one of the most powerful creature cards ever printed so of course its not as good as that. That doesn't change the fact that the Spellbreaker is no where near trash level card that some here have erroneously described it as.
It really is a shame about the colors. I think if they were both costed the same I might take the Firewheeler over the Kavu in many cases. I used to play Flametongue back in the day and although it was one of my favorite red creature cards the one toughness and inability to go to the dome was often a real kick in the teeth on that thing. I have a lot of bitter memories of just barely falling short of the win because there was some chump blocker left on the field and no gas left in my hand after dropping my Flametounge. The fact that the Firewheeler can remove a small creature, shock the opponent directly and has enough toughness to swing into chump blockers without fear is pretty sweet.
It's also one of the better answers I have seen printed for low to mid life walker removal. Being able to kill a walker with up to 4 loyalty and leaving a 4/3 body behind is one of the best trade ups I can think of when it comes to killing walkers and certainly one of the most versatile. Even if there are no creatures on the board the Firewheeler still does work.
On the down side it has the problem that most jack of all trades have which is it is a master of none. Sure it can go to the dome but only for 2, it can kill creatures, but only relatively small ones, it can kill walkers but only if they are at 4 or less loyalty and it leaves behind a solid beat stick but certainly not one that is brokenly above curve. Still I think the fact that is does all of these things relatively well and at a good value point on the curve makes it an interesting card. I just wish the colored mana cost wasn't so oppressive.
If by some feat of freakish luck we see some sort aggressive Black/Red mid range deck in standard I think this will be one of it's stars, but that seems incredibly unlikely to me.
Where do you get the up to 4 loyalty? Redirection rule is gone.
Oops! My bad. That was sloppy. I forgot it was only the older cards that targeted players that were given errata to target walkers as well. That makes this card much less shiny.
If one says the card is good "in a vacuum", it means one's standards are obsolete and it's time to update one's expectations.
Mantis Rider is the most direct comparison that comes to mind : they're both 3/3 haste creatures for cmc 3. Mantis is better because flying is stronger than trample, and Humans (which is a good home) is stronger than Warriors / Zoo (all worse homes). It's a pretty darn good indicator for me.
Now, none (but one) of the 4/4 for 3cmc I can find in my search engine see play in modern : Anafenza, the Foremost, Savage Knuckleblade, Illusory Angel, Lathnu Hellion, Vexing Sphinx, Hell's Thunder, and the only that actually sees play in not impactful archetypes : Loxodon Smiter.
Aggro decks don't run 3-drops to victory because of their 90's stats (cmc + power + toughness + vanilla ability), they must offer something more specific, like synergies, MU role play or disruption. This is where 3-drops win in nowadays Modern format. An example is Stompy with Steal Leaf Champion : the card has unprecedented stats but the deck doesn't make an impact at all. Top curve 3-drops that make an impact are not brute force only, they're rather annoying creatures like Spell Queller, Etched Champion, Reflector Mage, and even Mantis Rider as a role player vs flyers.
Spirits
Turn 1, crack fetch, incubation grab street wraith, and you already have delirium. Turn 2, fetch shock and traverse for and play shadow or tasigur.
so it has nice interactions like you point out, but im not sure how it fits that doesnt have the deck break even or possibly being worse off.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Mantis Rider is NOT played because a 3/3 flying haste is good enough value for 3 mana in modern. It really isn't. It's played because it's a HUMAN and works well with all the lords and whatnot in the humans deck. If it were not a human, Mantis Rider would see zero play.
Spellbreaker is worse in terms of evasion, worse in terms of type, slightly better in terms of casting cost, slightly better in terms of other effects. But crucially, it lacks any sort of support to make it better than it is in a vacuum. Building a deck to hit this with coco in a world where smiter and knight of the reliquary and others exist is just silly, and its only being talked about because its a new card with a bunch of different abilities stapled to it.
That said, it will probably see standard play if Steel Leaf Champion is somehow not good enough as a turn 3 play in aggro beatdown.
Strictly better commune stapled to a strictly worse beast within is very interesting. Both are powerful effects on their own, and the flexibility means you can't overlook it. If RUG is ever a thing, and it relies on creatures, expect this card to be in the deck.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
And yeah Mantis Rider is great cause its Human and it does something unique for Humans ie attacks in the air and can still block.