If anything, the last 12 months have shown that the format has the ability to adapt and self-correct. Certain decks archetypes have presented alarming results, followed by a reaction and rise of a new subset of decks.
Humans, UW, KCI, Tron, Hardened Scales Affinity, Hollow One, BridgeVine, Arclight Phoenix, and Spirits are all decks that have ebbed and flowed over the last year, but nothing has really put up consistently oppressive level results. It's really made me re-evaluate my own opinions on the format. I feared the Jace unban, but the card has proven to be just kind of okay. I was on board for the idea of an Ancient Stirrings ban, only to see the colorless decks being seemingly managed.
I do still yearn for some of the old “glory days”. That was when I could play Temur Delver and know that Affinity, Twin, Jund, and Tron were the main pillars to prepare for. But, I enjoy the format for what it is, even if it’s much different than what the format was when I started playing.
Modern is a format so wide that literally 50+ decks have the potential to be competitively viable, but let's ban out a dozen decks and alienate thousands of players so we can have a "brewer's paradise"? Thanks, but no thanks.
Saying Modern isn't a brewer's paradise (or that it hasn't been for nearly the entirety of its existence) is an insult to the format.
Yes but what percentage of the meta does each archtype occupy. I argue the meta is far too tilted towards Aggro/Tempo. WOTC does its best to cripple and keep Combo, Control and Big Mana down...Midrange was collateral damage but Aggro when is the last time an aggro hoser got printed?
I don't understand how anyone could look at the last 12 months of results and call for a ban.
I do. People just hate combo. That's it
Then they aren't looking at the actual GP results and they are just looking at the popular (and wrong) perceptions of those results. Here are the combined GP/PT #s for all GP/PT this year.
These GP/PT numbers show extensive diversity with no single deck or supertype having a clear plurality. It is completely unreasonable to request bans if this is the dataset we are working with. The sole exception to this is a Dredge-focused ban, because GGT got banned in Dredge for violations that occurred outside of GP/PT T8s. Every other ban, however, was played out in the T8s.
It does not see that much Modern play come on now. Its too slow. Its Marginal Play at best and does not compare. Supreme Verdict still sees more play.
And WOTC printed a hoser to the best 4 CMC boardwipe in ages. So I am not quite buying your argument that WOTC is out to help Control.
I did not claim it saw "much Modern play." I simply said it sees Modern play and also Standard play. As to your other claim, Standard has Teferi, Search, Settle, Niv, Sabotage, and multiple top-tier versions of Ux Control strategies. Wizards is CLEARLY helping control be viable in Standard.
People know me as someone who has advocated unbanning Stoneforge Mystic, Preordain, and Green Sun's Zenith for quite a long time now. But I can actually understand the side of those who would rather have a banning of Ancient Stirrings and Faithless Looting instead. The format is getting stale. Nobody that wins Modern matches consistently runs anything outside of the Ancient Stirrings/Faithless Looting/Noble Hierarch realm. Sure, another deck may come out. But it will use one of these 3 busted cards that are all BETTER than Stoneforge Mystic, Preordain, and Green Sun's Zenith.
Agreed. Even if I don't understand actively wanting Faithless Looting banned, as it flat out destroys 5-6 decks. Your unban cards are quite strange though. I really believe Splinter Twin is the second most safe card in the BL.
The problem that some people don't realize with the banning of Deathrite Shaman is that Noble Hierarch becomes the best mana dork now. Noble Hierarch was far from busted before, but with all of the bannings that have happened, even the little Human that could has earned its place in the top 5 cards in Modern, if not Top 3. Sure, Deathrite Shaman is busted. I will not advocate an unban right now.
I Disagree. First off, I don't think Noble being the almost(will get on that later) best mana dork is a problem, since it's not busted. DRS was a problem, not because it was the best mana dork, but because it is busted. Don't also forget that in decks that play Red or Black, Birds is strictly better than Noble. Don't forget that in Ponza, Arbor Elf is better. Don't forget that in Elfs, Llanowar Elves is better, as exemplified by the last GP,as is Elves of Deep Shadow. Don't forget that in Abzan Company, Birds of Paradise is also better than Noble Hierarch. Don't also forget that Noble Hierach is not good enough to be played into Jund Midrange, as was deathtite Shaman.
Now, think that all or most of those decks would either just replace all of their mana dorks with deathtite Shaman or add a deathtite Shaman, even if the don't usually play a mana dork at all.
There is a Zoo player at my LGS that believes that Ancient Stirrings and Faithless Looting will both be banned to "fix" the format. I personally still see 3 unbans at least that could maybe not fix...but help the format at least. You have to actively give people a reason to not play Ancient Stirrings, Faithless Looting, or Noble Hierarch. I think people have finally realized how strong some of these cards are, including how strong Manamorphose is.
I disagree about Manamorphose. It's a fine card, but needs an engine to work with. I play GDS almost exclusively, but I am not interested in the card, even if I can play it and thin my deck.
I agree about the rest. You have to give a reason in people to not play one of those cards indeed. Banning them is not a solution, as you say. Unbanning SFM, Preordain is a nice solution. Make the blue cantrip be on par with the green and the red one. Black is already a very strong colour, and White shall be boosted with SFM.
I agree with the notion that Modern has cards that are legal and are at the same time on par with other cards that are banned. Unbans or bans should happen. Hopefully the first one.
Splinter Twin probably is safe. I just want to give the other cards a chance first, as Twin will undoubtedly have an effect on Combo decks, including Titanshift. That may be a good thing, depending on what side you sit on.
Regarding Deathrite Shaman, I knew some people would take that the wrong way. I am not advocating an unban on Deathrite Shaman, but at the same time, if someone wants to help Midrange, THAT is what it would take. Or maybe for Wizards to print Tron hate cards every new set until Tron goes away (I doubt it will happen)? My point is that when something is taken out or banned, there will always be something to replace it. You understand that. Most of the people currently posting understand that. But some people don't. Wizards can go on to continually ban stuff if that's their MO, but there is certainly another way (unbans...and yes, there are already plenty people on this train now). The train was so lonely before.
Gitaxian Probe got banned. People will swear that they knew it was too good and they knew exactly the date, including time down to the second, when this card was banned. Wrong. Nobody knew it. I didn't know a single person that thought Gitaxian Probe would get banned. Gitaxian Probe was essentially a free card, like Street Wraith, Manamorphose, Mishra's Bauble, and probably more. I had a plan to eventually try Git Probe in Bogles to thin my deck by 4 cards since the deck doesn't lose to Burn anyway. I hadn't considered Manamorphose yet. What I'm saying is that people are starting to see the power of free cards, cards that nobody talked about until maybe the last 1-2 years in Modern. Maybe that's because there were more "broken" cards, who knows?
And trust me, the first time your Thing in the Ice opponent goes Manamorphose X 4, you will see it in a similar light to me. This has happened to me at least 3 times in Modern, even if someone here will swear that it happens once every 100 games.
Just some anecdotal evidence here. In the mtgsalvation deck archetype section, I probably go to these...
Aggro - about 60% of the time
Ramp - 20% of the time
Combo - 20% of the time
Midrange - 0% of the time
Control - 0% of the time
I also see that the Aggro section is very active, while some of the other sections have decks that haven't been posted in for weeks.
*Lastly, I am not advocating ANY bans and never have. I just can understand why someone who believes that Modern is a turn 4 format believes that Faithless Looting and Ancient Stirrings should be banned. I can udnerstand it. I definitely don't want it though. That would set me on a ***** talking spiral again, like the one you saw after some of the other bannings, lol.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I am sorry KTK you pointed to one boardwipe that sees little play in Modern as prove of aggro hosing. It does good work in standard sure but we have seen cards made for Modern in Standard and Settle doesn't compare. Settle is sideboard at best.
Compare that to say the number of Tron haters we have seen of late it doesn't compare. We get a tron killer every set for over a year and most of said Tron haters double as Combo and Control haters. We got Blood Sun (Rivals), Damping Sphere (Dominaria), Alpine Moon (Core 19) Assassin's Trophy (Guilds), and Lavinia, Azorius Renegade (Allegiance). Now I am not arguing all those are great but I would say they are all at worst as good as Settle and some are quite a bit better in Modern. So that is 5 cards made to hate on Tron, Control, and Combo to various degrees in the time since the last "good" Aggro hoser in Settle showed up. Only one of those cards really does anything to aggro and its not like Golgari lacked options to kill creatures so I argue the focus of even that one trophy aint on taking out creatures.
I am sorry KTK you pointed to one boardwipe that sees little play in Modern as prove of aggro hosing.
Compare that to say the number of Tron haters we have seen of late it doesn't compare. We get a new tron killer at worst every other set and most of said tron haters double as combo haters.
You asked when was the last time an aggro hoses saw play. I pointed to a recent example in a top-tier Standard deck. Your narrative about Wizards not giving control decks cards is inaccurate. Comparing Tron hate, which generally doesnt impact Standard, to aggro hate, which has a huge impact on Standard, is misplaced at best, misleading at worst. Wizards is demonstrably helping control, as proven by recent Standard results.
Modern has plenty of good 1cmc spot removal. Semi-decent sweepers. Blind-flip terminus occasionally happens and randomly wins games right there. What are you expecting out of an 'aggro hoser'? You want a card that reads 4CMC exile all creatures on the battlefield and in the graveyard, gain 2 life for each creature card exiled this way? Because that's never going to happen. Hosers aren't cards that say "play this and win the game".
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
KTK this the Modern section I am not talking about Standard in this area stop being disingenuous.
One aggro hoser does not compare to the amount of Tron, Control and Combo haters printed over the past year. The last 5 Sets have had hosers for those decks of various quality and potency.
What do I want an aggro hoser? A Wipe that exiles or puts on the bottom of your opponent's deck with conditional cost reduction if your opponent is putting too many creatures on to the field for free or super cheap. An actual playable counter that cost 2 CMC. And/Or a creature that stops aformentioned cheap or zero cost creature cheating.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
KTK this the Modern section I am not talking about Standard in this area stop being disingenuous.
One aggro hoser does not compare to the amount of Tron, Control and Combo haters printed over the past year. The last 5 Sets have had hosers for those decks of various quality and potency.
What do I want an aggro hoser? A Wipe that exiles or puts on the bottom of your opponent's deck with conditional cost reduction if your opponent is putting too many creatures on to the field for free or super cheap. An actual playable counter that cost 2 CMC. And/Or a creature that stops aformentioned cheap or zero cost creature cheating.
Assassin's Trophy: 2 CMC Instant destroys Creature Lands or Walkers.
Blood Sun: 3 CMC No Creature Lands and Azcantas
Alpine Moon: 1 CMC No Creature Lands or Azcantas
Lavinia: 2 CMC, No Terminus without 6 Lands
Are all Control Haters based on the standard that Settle The Wreckage counts as a viable and relevant Modern Card.
I also argue Creeping Chill: Uncounterable 6 Point Life Swing for Free hurts Control more then other Decks. But that is all purpose hate.
I am not saying Aggro is the entire Meta. I am saying compared to other Archtypes Aggro takes up more then its fair share of the Meta and WOTC doesn't send anywhere the same amount of Hate and Hosers at that it does the other Archtypes.
Yes but what percentage of the meta does each archtype occupy. I argue the meta is far too tilted towards Aggro/Tempo. WOTC does its best to cripple and keep Combo, Control and Big Mana down...Midrange was collateral damage but Aggro when is the last time an aggro hoser got printed?
You do not ask "when is the last time a MODERN aggro hoser got printed?" or something to that effect. You simply asked when Wizards last printed an aggro hoser. I answered that question. We have been talking about Wizards printing cards in Standard for a while now. If you wanted to ask about Modern specifically, then do so. Don't accuse me of being disingenuous when your question had vague phrasing and was not specific to a given format.
Good general-purpose cards aren't control hate lmao. Please tell me how any of those are effective against control to the extent that they qualify as control hate. Assassin's trophy is the closest thing and even then it's a far stretch. Blood Sun and Alpine Moon see close to no play and definitely are not priorities to bring in against control. Lavinia, hard to say since we haven't seen what her actual impact in modern is.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
I shouldn't have to state I am talking about Modern in the section of the boards literally called "THE STATE OF MODERN THREAD" under the subsection "MODERN". It should be obvious to anyone with a basic understanding of English and MTG which you have shown far more then basic understanding off KTK. Nice Try.
I didn't say they great. I said at worst they are just as relevant as Settle in Modern which is the benchmark that KTK set not I and at least show some effort from WOTC.
Just some anecdotal evidence here. In the mtgsalvation deck archetype section, I probably go to these...
Aggro - about 60% of the time
Ramp - 20% of the time
Combo - 20% of the time
Midrange - 0% of the time
Control - 0% of the time
Go to these forums and you'll see what is popular here. I know that mtgsalvation is obviously not the tell-all of the Modern scene, but it does show a portion. The Aggro and Combo portion are just more active. There's no point in me posting in a thread where someone answers every 2 weeks, although admittedly it has gotten slower overall in these sections recently.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
No they're not as relevant as settle if you're talking about HATE. Settle is commonly brought in from the board specifically against creature decks. Assassin's Trophy is a general purpose removal spell. Blood Sun and Alpine Moon are irrelevant simply because they don't get played. Nobody builds a sideboard and goes "damn these blood sun and alpine moon would help me so much against control."
Those cards are nowhere near as effective against control then settle is against aggro. Just because these cards randomly interact with a handful of cards played in a control deck doesn't make them control-hate. Choke is control hate. Alpine Moon and Blood Sun are a very long way away from being control hate.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Just some anecdotal evidence here. In the mtgsalvation deck archetype section, I probably go to these...
Aggro - about 60% of the time
Ramp - 20% of the time
Combo - 20% of the time
Midrange - 0% of the time
Control - 0% of the time
Go to these forums and you'll see what is popular here. I know that mtgsalvation is obviously not the tell-all of the Modern scene, but it does show a portion. The Aggro and Combo portion are just more active. There's no point in me posting in a thread where someone answers every 2 weeks, although admittedly it has gotten slower overall in these sections recently.
I used to be quite active in the Control (UWR and Blue Moon) section, but right now those decks are solved, there is no great innovation possible,
Many aggro decks continue to tune and evolve, and people enjoy tuning jank combo.
There just isn't much to do for Control because if you don't tune to your own meta, there is no point in playing it.
I shouldn't have to state I am talking about Modern in the section of the boards literally called "THE STATE OF MODERN THREAD" under the subsection "MODERN". It should be obvious to anyone with a basic understanding of English and MTG which you have shown far more then basic understanding off KTK. Nice Try.
I can cite literally a dozen posts in the past week that talked about cards being printed in both Standard and Modern in this thread, and their interplay between the formats. Numerous users have discussed the intersection of Standard and Modern printings over the past week. In fact, I can even cite two of your posts that were talking about cards printed in Standard and their effect on Standard, not just on their effect in Modern.
Well sure they cast their Dino but does it really matter if its countered or instantly eats removal? I don't think so.
Also its not like they don't print counters just weak ones and by the time Timmy has enough mana to cast his big Dino, the blue player will have enough for ionize, sinister sabotage or whatever so I don't really buy that argument.
Now I will agree its not clear with counter what happens to the card as a novice. Hand, Graveyard, Exile?
MARO is the one who said they considered reprinting counterspell in Dominaria for the classic feel. But MARO recently said Azorius would be designed to not buff Teferi Decks so I will believe when I see it from MARO quite frankly. And I am not one of those who has personal issue with MARO he seems like a nice guy but he is a bit too close work and a bit too much fanboy and happy go lucky type for me to trust everything he says.
Also I am not inclined to necessarily trust Market Research in particular. There are plenty ways to bias polls to get what you want. But my distrust mostly relates to old sets in that I don't think Power or Quality of Standard is nearly as easy to separate from the Flavor and Lore of Planes when rating sets. Plus I don't see a massive difference from eating a counter to watching fatal push kill your haste less creature before you do anything.
Both of your previous posts are obviously about Standard cards and their impact on Standard. Given that you were yourself making those posts in this thread, to say nothing of other users making similar posts, it's pretty easy to see how your extremely unclear comment of "when is the last time an aggro hoser got printed?" gets interpreted as being about all formats/Standard, not Modern specifically.
At this point, I don't need to continue this argument. You made an unclear post, I replied to your unclear post, and you were dissatisfied with my reply. Rather than just accept the clarification, you made an outrageous accusation that I was being disingenuous after I called you out for being unclear. This is particularly unjustifiable given that you were posting about Standard cards/printings in this very thread in the last 48 hours. I don't even think your argument is that inaccurate at its core. Wizards does print fewer anti-aggro cards than other hate, although there are probably reasons for that. But the way you have gone about making this argument is so problematic on so many levels that it's hard to buy into, whether you are attacking me based on your own unclear phrasing, or using Trophy as an example of an anti-control card.
Your missing the point by default a post in the Modern Section should be assumed to be talking about Modern unless its specifically not. If someone else makes a post that is offtopic and about Standard and I respond to that post that does not prove all my posts should be assumed to be about Standard. Especially posts where I am not responding to you KTK. As none of posts you are referencing were responses to anything you posted. You are using posts that were not addressed and had nothing to do with you in a dirty and underhanded attempt to sully my reputation and I don't appreciate it.
Finally, the post that started this debate between us directly quotes a guy talking about Modern as noted by Modern Being in the Quote. I mean fine I don't always quote who I am talking to but this time I did quite clearly.
Modern is a format so wide that literally 50+ decks have the potential to be competitively viable, but let's ban out a dozen decks and alienate thousands of players so we can have a "brewer's paradise"? Thanks, but no thanks.
Saying Modern isn't a brewer's paradise (or that it hasn't been for nearly the entirety of its existence) is an insult to the format.
Yes but what percentage of the meta does each archtype occupy. I argue the meta is far too tilted towards Aggro/Tempo. WOTC does its best to cripple and keep Combo, Control and Big Mana down...Midrange was collateral damage but Aggro when is the last time an aggro hoser got printed?
So I don't see how you can look at this and I think I am not talking about Modern. I mean come on there is no Big Mana or Combo in Standard. KTK you got served sit down and enjoy that L.
If we are evaluating the format by deck forum activity then blue tron wins it.
I appreciate your dedication to the deck and your name.
I gotta check out that forum. If it indeed is super popular, I'm down to try out Blue Tron. I am looking for more feedback than I currently get from others, although honestly I should probably be checking out Reddit by now.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
If you want daily discussion on decks, you should join dedicated Discord servers. I feel that there is a lot less activity in the 'Salvation deck forums recently.
If you want daily discussion on decks, you should join dedicated Discord servers. I feel that there is a lot less activity in the 'Salvation deck forums recently.
It's still OK in the Modern section though. Have you tried posting in the Standard forums? It's like a wasteland over there.
Humans, UW, KCI, Tron, Hardened Scales Affinity, Hollow One, BridgeVine, Arclight Phoenix, and Spirits are all decks that have ebbed and flowed over the last year, but nothing has really put up consistently oppressive level results. It's really made me re-evaluate my own opinions on the format. I feared the Jace unban, but the card has proven to be just kind of okay. I was on board for the idea of an Ancient Stirrings ban, only to see the colorless decks being seemingly managed.
I do still yearn for some of the old “glory days”. That was when I could play Temur Delver and know that Affinity, Twin, Jund, and Tron were the main pillars to prepare for. But, I enjoy the format for what it is, even if it’s much different than what the format was when I started playing.
Then they aren't looking at the actual GP results and they are just looking at the popular (and wrong) perceptions of those results. Here are the combined GP/PT #s for all GP/PT this year.
1. Humans: 12 (10%)
2. Gx Tron: 11 (9%)
3. KCI: 10 (8%)
4. Jeskai Control: 8 (7%)
5. UW Control: 8 (7%)
6. Bant Spirits: 6 (5%)
7. Burn: 5 (4%)
8. Hollow One: 5 (4%)
9. Abzan: 4 (3%)
10. Mardu: 4 (3%)
11. Affinity: 3 (3%)
12. Bogles: 3 (3%)
13. Elves: 3 (3%)
14. GDS: 3 (3%)
15. Hardened Scales: 3 (3%)
16. Infect: 3 (3%)
17. RG Eldrazi: 3 (3%)
18. Amulet Titan: 2 (2%)
19. Bridgevine: 2 (2%)
20. Jund: 2 (2%)
21. Storm: 2 (2%)
22. Traverse Shadow: 2 (2%)
23. UR Phoenix: 2 (2%)
24. Abzan Evolution: 1 (1%)
25. Bant Company: 1 (1%)
26. Bant Knightfall: 1 (1%)
27. BG Rock: 1 (1%)
28. BtL Scapeshift: 1 (1%)
29. Death and Taxes: 1 (1%)
30. Dredge: 1 (1%)
31. Faeries: 1 (1%)
32. Grishoalbrand: 1 (1%)
33. Jeskai Tempo: 1 (1%)
34. Lantern: 1 (1%)
35. Martyr Proc: 1 (1%)
36. Titanshift: 1 (1%)
37. UR Pyromancer: 1 (1%)
And here are the numbers if we exclude PTs and the Team events:
1. Gx Tron: 10 (10%)
2. KCI: 9 (9%)
3. Jeskai Control: 7 (7%)
4. Humans: 6 (6%)
5. UW Control: 6 (6%)
6. Bant Spirits: 5 (5%)
7. Burn: 5 (5%)
8. Abzan: 3 (3%)
9. Affinity: 3 (3%)
10. Bogles: 3 (3%)
11. Elves: 3 (3%)
12. GDS: 3 (3%)
13. RG Eldrazi: 3 (3%)
14. Hollow One: 2 (2%)
15. Mardu: 2 (2%)
16. Hardened Scales: 2 (2%)
17. Infect: 2 (2%)
18. Amulet Titan: 2 (2%)
19. Bridgevine: 2 (2%)
20. Jund: 2 (2%)
21. Storm: 2 (2%)
22. UR Phoenix: 2 (2%)
23. Traverse Shadow: 1 (1%)
24. Abzan Evolution: 1 (1%)
25. Bant Company: 1 (1%)
26. Bant Knightfall: 1 (1%)
27. BG Rock: 1 (1%)
28. BtL Scapeshift: 1 (1%)
29. Death and Taxes: 1 (1%)
30. Dredge: 1 (1%)
31. Faeries: 1 (1%)
32. Grishoalbrand: 1 (1%)
33. Jeskai Tempo: 1 (1%)
34. Martyr Proc: 1 (1%)
And finally, here are the numbers for the last three months (September through present, 4 GP total):
1. UW Control: 3 (9%)
2. Bant Spirits: 3 (9%)
3. Humans: 2 (6%)
4. Gx Tron: 2 (6%)
5. KCI: 2 (6%)
6. Jeskai Control: 2 (6%)
7. Bridgevine: 2 (6%)
8. Storm: 2 (6%)
9. UR Phoenix: 2 (6%)
10. Burn: 1 (3%)
11. Hollow One: 1 (3%)
12. Elves: 1 (3%)
13. GDS: 1 (3%)
14. Hardened Scales: 1 (3%)
15. Infect: 1 (3%)
16. Jund: 1 (3%)
17. Abzan Evolution: 1 (3%)
18. BG Rock: 1 (3%)
19. Faeries: 1 (3%)
20. Jeskai Tempo: 1 (3%)
21. Martyr Proc: 1 (3%)
These GP/PT numbers show extensive diversity with no single deck or supertype having a clear plurality. It is completely unreasonable to request bans if this is the dataset we are working with. The sole exception to this is a Dredge-focused ban, because GGT got banned in Dredge for violations that occurred outside of GP/PT T8s. Every other ban, however, was played out in the T8s.
I did not claim it saw "much Modern play." I simply said it sees Modern play and also Standard play. As to your other claim, Standard has Teferi, Search, Settle, Niv, Sabotage, and multiple top-tier versions of Ux Control strategies. Wizards is CLEARLY helping control be viable in Standard.
Splinter Twin probably is safe. I just want to give the other cards a chance first, as Twin will undoubtedly have an effect on Combo decks, including Titanshift. That may be a good thing, depending on what side you sit on.
Regarding Deathrite Shaman, I knew some people would take that the wrong way. I am not advocating an unban on Deathrite Shaman, but at the same time, if someone wants to help Midrange, THAT is what it would take. Or maybe for Wizards to print Tron hate cards every new set until Tron goes away (I doubt it will happen)? My point is that when something is taken out or banned, there will always be something to replace it. You understand that. Most of the people currently posting understand that. But some people don't. Wizards can go on to continually ban stuff if that's their MO, but there is certainly another way (unbans...and yes, there are already plenty people on this train now). The train was so lonely before.
Gitaxian Probe got banned. People will swear that they knew it was too good and they knew exactly the date, including time down to the second, when this card was banned. Wrong. Nobody knew it. I didn't know a single person that thought Gitaxian Probe would get banned. Gitaxian Probe was essentially a free card, like Street Wraith, Manamorphose, Mishra's Bauble, and probably more. I had a plan to eventually try Git Probe in Bogles to thin my deck by 4 cards since the deck doesn't lose to Burn anyway. I hadn't considered Manamorphose yet. What I'm saying is that people are starting to see the power of free cards, cards that nobody talked about until maybe the last 1-2 years in Modern. Maybe that's because there were more "broken" cards, who knows?
And trust me, the first time your Thing in the Ice opponent goes Manamorphose X 4, you will see it in a similar light to me. This has happened to me at least 3 times in Modern, even if someone here will swear that it happens once every 100 games.
Just some anecdotal evidence here. In the mtgsalvation deck archetype section, I probably go to these...
Aggro - about 60% of the time
Ramp - 20% of the time
Combo - 20% of the time
Midrange - 0% of the time
Control - 0% of the time
I also see that the Aggro section is very active, while some of the other sections have decks that haven't been posted in for weeks.
*Lastly, I am not advocating ANY bans and never have. I just can understand why someone who believes that Modern is a turn 4 format believes that Faithless Looting and Ancient Stirrings should be banned. I can udnerstand it. I definitely don't want it though. That would set me on a ***** talking spiral again, like the one you saw after some of the other bannings, lol.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Compare that to say the number of Tron haters we have seen of late it doesn't compare. We get a tron killer every set for over a year and most of said Tron haters double as Combo and Control haters. We got Blood Sun (Rivals), Damping Sphere (Dominaria), Alpine Moon (Core 19) Assassin's Trophy (Guilds), and Lavinia, Azorius Renegade (Allegiance). Now I am not arguing all those are great but I would say they are all at worst as good as Settle and some are quite a bit better in Modern. So that is 5 cards made to hate on Tron, Control, and Combo to various degrees in the time since the last "good" Aggro hoser in Settle showed up. Only one of those cards really does anything to aggro and its not like Golgari lacked options to kill creatures so I argue the focus of even that one trophy aint on taking out creatures.
You asked when was the last time an aggro hoses saw play. I pointed to a recent example in a top-tier Standard deck. Your narrative about Wizards not giving control decks cards is inaccurate. Comparing Tron hate, which generally doesnt impact Standard, to aggro hate, which has a huge impact on Standard, is misplaced at best, misleading at worst. Wizards is demonstrably helping control, as proven by recent Standard results.
One aggro hoser does not compare to the amount of Tron, Control and Combo haters printed over the past year. The last 5 Sets have had hosers for those decks of various quality and potency.
What do I want an aggro hoser? A Wipe that exiles or puts on the bottom of your opponent's deck with conditional cost reduction if your opponent is putting too many creatures on to the field for free or super cheap. An actual playable counter that cost 2 CMC. And/Or a creature that stops aformentioned cheap or zero cost creature cheating.
Well theres Blasphemous Act
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
You know what happens if aggro goes down to say 30% of Moderns decks?
You literally have to just throw darts blinded, while building your deck.
When aggro really WAS the top of the meta, you could play UWR and dominate.
Last night is a great example.
Bring to light.
Jund x 2
Tron
Dredge.
Last week ? KCI.
2 weeks ? Runaway and Phoenix.
Play online, your perception of 'all aggro' will change quickly.
Spirits
Blood Sun: 3 CMC No Creature Lands and Azcantas
Alpine Moon: 1 CMC No Creature Lands or Azcantas
Lavinia: 2 CMC, No Terminus without 6 Lands
Are all Control Haters based on the standard that Settle The Wreckage counts as a viable and relevant Modern Card.
I also argue Creeping Chill: Uncounterable 6 Point Life Swing for Free hurts Control more then other Decks. But that is all purpose hate.
I am not saying Aggro is the entire Meta. I am saying compared to other Archtypes Aggro takes up more then its fair share of the Meta and WOTC doesn't send anywhere the same amount of Hate and Hosers at that it does the other Archtypes.
I don't understand how you can possibly accuse me of being disingenuous. Read your own post:
You do not ask "when is the last time a MODERN aggro hoser got printed?" or something to that effect. You simply asked when Wizards last printed an aggro hoser. I answered that question. We have been talking about Wizards printing cards in Standard for a while now. If you wanted to ask about Modern specifically, then do so. Don't accuse me of being disingenuous when your question had vague phrasing and was not specific to a given format.
Are you actually taking the piss.
I didn't say they great. I said at worst they are just as relevant as Settle in Modern which is the benchmark that KTK set not I and at least show some effort from WOTC.
Aggro - about 60% of the time
Ramp - 20% of the time
Combo - 20% of the time
Midrange - 0% of the time
Control - 0% of the time
Go to these forums and you'll see what is popular here. I know that mtgsalvation is obviously not the tell-all of the Modern scene, but it does show a portion. The Aggro and Combo portion are just more active. There's no point in me posting in a thread where someone answers every 2 weeks, although admittedly it has gotten slower overall in these sections recently.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Those cards are nowhere near as effective against control then settle is against aggro. Just because these cards randomly interact with a handful of cards played in a control deck doesn't make them control-hate. Choke is control hate. Alpine Moon and Blood Sun are a very long way away from being control hate.
I used to be quite active in the Control (UWR and Blue Moon) section, but right now those decks are solved, there is no great innovation possible,
Many aggro decks continue to tune and evolve, and people enjoy tuning jank combo.
There just isn't much to do for Control because if you don't tune to your own meta, there is no point in playing it.
Spirits
I can cite literally a dozen posts in the past week that talked about cards being printed in both Standard and Modern in this thread, and their interplay between the formats. Numerous users have discussed the intersection of Standard and Modern printings over the past week. In fact, I can even cite two of your posts that were talking about cards printed in Standard and their effect on Standard, not just on their effect in Modern.
Both of your previous posts are obviously about Standard cards and their impact on Standard. Given that you were yourself making those posts in this thread, to say nothing of other users making similar posts, it's pretty easy to see how your extremely unclear comment of "when is the last time an aggro hoser got printed?" gets interpreted as being about all formats/Standard, not Modern specifically.
At this point, I don't need to continue this argument. You made an unclear post, I replied to your unclear post, and you were dissatisfied with my reply. Rather than just accept the clarification, you made an outrageous accusation that I was being disingenuous after I called you out for being unclear. This is particularly unjustifiable given that you were posting about Standard cards/printings in this very thread in the last 48 hours. I don't even think your argument is that inaccurate at its core. Wizards does print fewer anti-aggro cards than other hate, although there are probably reasons for that. But the way you have gone about making this argument is so problematic on so many levels that it's hard to buy into, whether you are attacking me based on your own unclear phrasing, or using Trophy as an example of an anti-control card.
Finally, the post that started this debate between us directly quotes a guy talking about Modern as noted by Modern Being in the Quote. I mean fine I don't always quote who I am talking to but this time I did quite clearly.
So I don't see how you can look at this and I think I am not talking about Modern. I mean come on there is no Big Mana or Combo in Standard. KTK you got served sit down and enjoy that L.
I appreciate your dedication to the deck and your name.
I gotta check out that forum. If it indeed is super popular, I'm down to try out Blue Tron. I am looking for more feedback than I currently get from others, although honestly I should probably be checking out Reddit by now.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Legacy: UWR Miracles [https://deckstats.net/decks/44442/1092831-uwr-miracles-2]
It's still OK in the Modern section though. Have you tried posting in the Standard forums? It's like a wasteland over there.