Its difficult to say anyone is 'informed' about a format that doesnt see nearly enough play to make any kind of real statements about power level?
And the way to have NBLM see enough play for informed opinions, is for lots of people to play it, right?
Yeah but that simply isn't going to happen.
Without the number of reps and iteration you see in Modern or Standard, you are simply not going to get an accurate picture.
Ponza has spiked events, that doesn't make it Tier 1.
We need a lot more data to make any claims on NBLM.
Certainly not with that attitude, anyway.
Seriously though, it's never going to be a real, WotC endorsed format. From my experiences with NBLM, it's just way too opaque an environment to ever make sense to the average newish player. There's too many "tests" a deck can fail- like the Chalice Test, the Depths test, the Shoal test, or the Bridge test to name a few. If your deck fails a test, that's one or two decks that will beat you game 1, before sideboarding. Games tend to be very binary because of this. 'Turn 1 Land, Chrome Mox, Chalice on 1 or Spyglass on the most relevant fetchland, go' doesn't lead to the types of board states Wizards seems interested in pursuing.
No banlist modern is a mess. It's too spiky to be a 'real' format. Sure it's fun as a bit of a diversion or novelty, but don't let yourself be convinced that it'd make for an actual, regularly used competitive format with prizes on the line, a proper metagame, coverage and whatnot.
So yeah. Maybe the occasional local store tournament can be NBLM. Maybe the occasional streamed event, as we've seen recently it can be an amusing novelty. Beyond that? Not a chance. The appeal is miniscule and the format is unwieldy and unpredictable.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
For something new... the Arclight Steam Kin deck seems to be getting some good results. Although I'm not sure if it's an aggro or combo deck.
It is strong right now. I foresee this deck to dominate for at least the next 2 weeks while the meta adjusts to it. It is pretty weak to boggles though and unfavoured against burn. I don't have enough experiences in the other matchup yet
The kid Ian is a local at my LGS and we have tested together more than a few times Glad to see the young Whipper Snapper start to take off. He's been on Dredge for YEARS, I met when him he was about 16, deck mastery pays off. Nice to see the torch being passed along this way, at 36 my competitive outlet is MTGO, but boy if I were younger MM hmm!! lol
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
We had many conversations about that !!! I kept telling him "Man save money for University!", he smiled and just foiled it out. He suffered with dredge after the bannings, he even picked up Bant Eldrazi in before it's utter extinction.
In the end, he had 1 modern deck, and he learned to play the *** out of it. We tested for SCG team Dallas, and I put him through the Tron ringer. While the match up is no longer in favor for Tron, he learned a lot. Now I'm the one suffering and looking towards other decks. But as the saying goes, Mastery and dedication matter more in modern. I'm not sure what to play competitively in modern anymore, but I may be asking Ian about Dredge very soon
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
Cedric and Patrick mentioned at the close of the Stream, there is a lot of Dredge, Humans, and Tron, so nothing too unexpected at this point. I really hope there is at least one Steam-Kin out there though.
from what i have observed, runaway red (both the monoR and UR flavors) definitely have the power to be legitimately good decks moving forward. that said, i dont think it quite has what it takes to break into top-tier; and if it does not for long. the aggro-combo archetype is pretty bloated, so the bar is high to stay relevant.
just my prediction based on limited information though so /shrug
'you better kill these creatures or things could get out of hand!'
'hold my beer'
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
from what i have observed, runaway red (both the monoR and UR flavors) definitely have the power to be legitimately good decks moving forward. that said, i dont think it quite has what it takes to break into top-tier; and if it does not for long. the aggro-combo archetype is pretty bloated, so the bar is high to stay relevant.
just my prediction based on limited information though so /shrug
'you better kill these creatures or things could get out of hand!'
'hold my beer'
There's definitely something to that, its got some cute things going on though in all the versions. I went 3-1 tonight with my version, Humans 2-1, UWR Control 2-0, Abzan 1-2, and Runaway Red, 2-0.
Faithless Looting is probably a card they are keeping an eye on. Anytime we have a powerful graveyard-based deck there's a very chance that looting is helping to enable it, whether this be dredge, bridgevine, hollow one, goryo's vengeance, and now the new Arclight Phoenix deck.
Faithless Looting is probably a card they are keeping an eye on. Anytime we have a powerful graveyard-based deck there's a very chance that looting is helping to enable it, whether this be dredge, bridgevine, hollow one, goryo's vengeance, and now the new Arclight Phoenix deck.
This is probably true. Along with Stirrings. Its a huge enabler of strategies, the saving grace being any amount of GY hate that can be brought out, much of which goes in any deck.
For me, it would be sad to see Faithless Looting. It would essentially die for Creeping Chill pushing Dredge over. Faithless Looting (just like Ancient Stirrings I guess) enables a lot of Modern strategies or make them much better. Without the card, Modern is less diverse.
*On a personal note, I am starting to get bored of Modern. People around my area know me as the "Modern dude," but I seriously am considering playing a format where I can win over 60% of the time (like Standard or Limited, which actually don't look too bad anymore). Maybe if there are some unbannings in the future, I'll be back, but right now seeing stuff on the ban list when Modern has become boring for me (because in the end, that's all that matters) is really a slap in the face.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Hoogland said something about Dredge that I agreed with: he said that Chill itself didn't give Dredge a huge bump, it's that Dredge was always still good even after the GGT ban, Chill just gave people a reason to pick up the deck again. My best friend plays Dredge, and when we swapped out GGT after the ban and played some games, it was obvious to me that the deck was still good. Chill helps, but yeah, the deck has been good this whole time
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
For me, it would be sad to see Faithless Looting. It would essentially die for Creeping Chill pushing Dredge over. Faithless Looting (just like Ancient Stirrings I guess) enables a lot of Modern strategies or make them much better. Without the card, Modern is less diverse.
*On a personal note, I am starting to get bored of Modern. People around my area know me as the "Modern dude," but I seriously am considering playing a format where I can win over 60% of the time (like Standard or Limited, which actually don't look too bad anymore). Maybe if there are some unbannings in the future, I'll be back, but right now seeing stuff on the ban list when Modern has become boring for me (because in the end, that's all that matters) is really a slap in the face.
the thing about faithless lootings, much like stirrings, is that axing it at this point would be a blow to the power and diversity of the format. unless such cards are enabling some true degeneracy in multiple decks that the format cant respond to, i think wizards is better served hitting a payoff or other card.
what i WOULD like to see addressed is the discrepancy with preordain. the blue cantrips were rightfully (imo) axed because of their ubiquity in enabling turn 4 violators. however at this point all of the violators have been dealt with, so we are left with blue not having something the color is identified with on the power level of other consistency tools.
i dont see it as an immediately pressing issue, nor is it to do with how whatever blue decks may or may not be doing. more so its about making sure the foundation the format is uniformly balanced; for decks now and any built in the future. maybe its ultimately too disruptive to try and introduce since their might have to be some hard decisions made if anything rises too high as a response (storm, or maybe control or whatever); however i personally hope that if wizards ever identifies a position to try it they do.
as for your personal comment. burn out is a thing. i dont think modern is stale, but i can understand the experience for a veteran like yourself seeming that way. nothing wrong with dabbling in other formats, or even stepping away from the game entirely. arena has been a breath of fresh air for me, but its quite a bit removed from paper; so your mileage may vary.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Hoogland said something about Dredge that I agreed with: he said that Chill itself didn't give Dredge a huge bump, it's that Dredge was always still good even after the GGT ban, Chill just gave people a reason to pick up the deck again. My best friend plays Dredge, and when we swapped out GGT after the ban and played some games, it was obvious to me that the deck was still good. Chill helps, but yeah, the deck has been good this whole time
This goes back to what I said a few pages ago. Is Mardu or Infect bad? Nope. Just not trendy.
yeah community perception does more to influence the meta than most acknowledge or accept. decks gain or lose momentum based on hype, and it inevitably translates in results.
we should keep this in mind and be more discerning to not fall victim to ban mania and meta chasing; which happens a comical amount basically anywhere you read about the format.
basically the only substantive thing i took notice of from dredge on scg coverage is caleb scherer playing it. seeing a true deck specialist switch over its noteworthy imo.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
For me, it would be sad to see Faithless Looting. It would essentially die for Creeping Chill pushing Dredge over. Faithless Looting (just like Ancient Stirrings I guess) enables a lot of Modern strategies or make them much better. Without the card, Modern is less diverse.
*On a personal note, I am starting to get bored of Modern. People around my area know me as the "Modern dude," but I seriously am considering playing a format where I can win over 60% of the time (like Standard or Limited, which actually don't look too bad anymore). Maybe if there are some unbannings in the future, I'll be back, but right now seeing stuff on the ban list when Modern has become boring for me (because in the end, that's all that matters) is really a slap in the face.
What exactly are you hoping for though? Modern has achieved a state where (and I saw this several times in various paraphrasing) 'Everything can be beat, but you cannot beat everything.' and thats for the best.
I mean unless you hate UW Control, thats what I would be on if I was looking for a 50/50 deck, but you seem to want a 60-40 deck, and thats simply not possible in Modern unless we hit a flawed game state of Eldrazi Winter.
Maybe Dredge is what you want? Until people are packing Void's and RIPs and Surgicals in every single deck...
For me, it would be sad to see Faithless Looting. It would essentially die for Creeping Chill pushing Dredge over. Faithless Looting (just like Ancient Stirrings I guess) enables a lot of Modern strategies or make them much better. Without the card, Modern is less diverse.
*On a personal note, I am starting to get bored of Modern. People around my area know me as the "Modern dude," but I seriously am considering playing a format where I can win over 60% of the time (like Standard or Limited, which actually don't look too bad anymore). Maybe if there are some unbannings in the future, I'll be back, but right now seeing stuff on the ban list when Modern has become boring for me (because in the end, that's all that matters) is really a slap in the face.
What exactly are you hoping for though? Modern has achieved a state where (and I saw this several times in various paraphrasing) 'Everything can be beat, but you cannot beat everything.' and thats for the best.
I mean unless you hate UW Control, thats what I would be on if I was looking for a 50/50 deck, but you seem to want a 60-40 deck, and thats simply not possible in Modern unless we hit a flawed game state of Eldrazi Winter.
Maybe Dredge is what you want? Until people are packing Void's and RIPs and Surgicals in every single deck...
Humans is also close to 50/50 against the field.
Also, plenty of top players are over 60% in Modern. Remember: there is no difference in top player MWP between Standard, Modern, and Legacy. If one is not attaining the desired 60% MWP in Modern, the problem is not the format. It's something else, whether deck choice, card choices, gameplay, etc.
Yeah Humans as well, probably correct choice but I just would never play it so block it out. I have been on the rough end of humans curving out and you can just be dead.
As to the MWP, those are players far better than I would argue most of us.
1. Creature Toolbox with 3 Impervious Greatwurm
2. Jund, 4 Trophy, 3 LotV 1 LotLH, 4 Leyline of the Void Side
3. Nikachu, Merfolk, with 4 Surgical in the Side.
4. Burn, with 2 Bridge, and 3 RIP in the Side.
5. Dredge, with 4 Chill
6. UR 'Grindfather' Prison, this deck is pretty neat if you are into Lantern like stuff.
7. Jund, 3 Trophy, 4 LotV, 4 Leyline of the Void Side
8. Dredge, with 4 Chill
Shout out to Martyr Proc, in 9th.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
UW Spirits
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Aggro, I hope it breaks out at SCG this weekend.
Spirits
Certainly not with that attitude, anyway.
Seriously though, it's never going to be a real, WotC endorsed format. From my experiences with NBLM, it's just way too opaque an environment to ever make sense to the average newish player. There's too many "tests" a deck can fail- like the Chalice Test, the Depths test, the Shoal test, or the Bridge test to name a few. If your deck fails a test, that's one or two decks that will beat you game 1, before sideboarding. Games tend to be very binary because of this. 'Turn 1 Land, Chrome Mox, Chalice on 1 or Spyglass on the most relevant fetchland, go' doesn't lead to the types of board states Wizards seems interested in pursuing.
So yeah. Maybe the occasional local store tournament can be NBLM. Maybe the occasional streamed event, as we've seen recently it can be an amusing novelty. Beyond that? Not a chance. The appeal is miniscule and the format is unwieldy and unpredictable.
It is strong right now. I foresee this deck to dominate for at least the next 2 weeks while the meta adjusts to it. It is pretty weak to boggles though and unfavoured against burn. I don't have enough experiences in the other matchup yet
There's someone playing something real close to my current deck as well, but I dont know how many people are on it, just one so far that I know of.
I didnt catch anyone on Steam-Kin though?
Spirits
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
Spirits
In the end, he had 1 modern deck, and he learned to play the *** out of it. We tested for SCG team Dallas, and I put him through the Tron ringer. While the match up is no longer in favor for Tron, he learned a lot. Now I'm the one suffering and looking towards other decks. But as the saying goes, Mastery and dedication matter more in modern. I'm not sure what to play competitively in modern anymore, but I may be asking Ian about Dredge very soon
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
Cedric and Patrick mentioned at the close of the Stream, there is a lot of Dredge, Humans, and Tron, so nothing too unexpected at this point. I really hope there is at least one Steam-Kin out there though.
Spirits
just my prediction based on limited information though so /shrug
'you better kill these creatures or things could get out of hand!'
'hold my beer'
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)According to Zak’s post both dredge players had never played it with chill before today. Idk how true that is though.
There's definitely something to that, its got some cute things going on though in all the versions. I went 3-1 tonight with my version, Humans 2-1, UWR Control 2-0, Abzan 1-2, and Runaway Red, 2-0.
I need my blue cantrip/thing crutch.
Spirits
This is probably true. Along with Stirrings. Its a huge enabler of strategies, the saving grace being any amount of GY hate that can be brought out, much of which goes in any deck.
Spirits
*On a personal note, I am starting to get bored of Modern. People around my area know me as the "Modern dude," but I seriously am considering playing a format where I can win over 60% of the time (like Standard or Limited, which actually don't look too bad anymore). Maybe if there are some unbannings in the future, I'll be back, but right now seeing stuff on the ban list when Modern has become boring for me (because in the end, that's all that matters) is really a slap in the face.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
the thing about faithless lootings, much like stirrings, is that axing it at this point would be a blow to the power and diversity of the format. unless such cards are enabling some true degeneracy in multiple decks that the format cant respond to, i think wizards is better served hitting a payoff or other card.
what i WOULD like to see addressed is the discrepancy with preordain. the blue cantrips were rightfully (imo) axed because of their ubiquity in enabling turn 4 violators. however at this point all of the violators have been dealt with, so we are left with blue not having something the color is identified with on the power level of other consistency tools.
i dont see it as an immediately pressing issue, nor is it to do with how whatever blue decks may or may not be doing. more so its about making sure the foundation the format is uniformly balanced; for decks now and any built in the future. maybe its ultimately too disruptive to try and introduce since their might have to be some hard decisions made if anything rises too high as a response (storm, or maybe control or whatever); however i personally hope that if wizards ever identifies a position to try it they do.
as for your personal comment. burn out is a thing. i dont think modern is stale, but i can understand the experience for a veteran like yourself seeming that way. nothing wrong with dabbling in other formats, or even stepping away from the game entirely. arena has been a breath of fresh air for me, but its quite a bit removed from paper; so your mileage may vary.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)This goes back to what I said a few pages ago. Is Mardu or Infect bad? Nope. Just not trendy.
Spirits
we should keep this in mind and be more discerning to not fall victim to ban mania and meta chasing; which happens a comical amount basically anywhere you read about the format.
basically the only substantive thing i took notice of from dredge on scg coverage is caleb scherer playing it. seeing a true deck specialist switch over its noteworthy imo.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I don't think we have seen MTGO reflected in paper so quickly in a while.
Spirits
What exactly are you hoping for though? Modern has achieved a state where (and I saw this several times in various paraphrasing) 'Everything can be beat, but you cannot beat everything.' and thats for the best.
I mean unless you hate UW Control, thats what I would be on if I was looking for a 50/50 deck, but you seem to want a 60-40 deck, and thats simply not possible in Modern unless we hit a flawed game state of Eldrazi Winter.
Maybe Dredge is what you want? Until people are packing Void's and RIPs and Surgicals in every single deck...
Spirits
Humans is also close to 50/50 against the field.
Also, plenty of top players are over 60% in Modern. Remember: there is no difference in top player MWP between Standard, Modern, and Legacy. If one is not attaining the desired 60% MWP in Modern, the problem is not the format. It's something else, whether deck choice, card choices, gameplay, etc.
As to the MWP, those are players far better than I would argue most of us.
I'm on my phone but do we have an SCG top 8 yet?
Spirits
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/modern-challenge-2018-10-21
1. Creature Toolbox with 3 Impervious Greatwurm
2. Jund, 4 Trophy, 3 LotV 1 LotLH, 4 Leyline of the Void Side
3. Nikachu, Merfolk, with 4 Surgical in the Side.
4. Burn, with 2 Bridge, and 3 RIP in the Side.
5. Dredge, with 4 Chill
6. UR 'Grindfather' Prison, this deck is pretty neat if you are into Lantern like stuff.
7. Jund, 3 Trophy, 4 LotV, 4 Leyline of the Void Side
8. Dredge, with 4 Chill
Shout out to Martyr Proc, in 9th.
Spirits