Twin usually comes up because its one fo the few cards that can actually be discussed when it comes to unbannings. We were talking about archtypes that exist and dont exist, and tempo + combo-control was brought up
Yeah but it doesnt matter, we are this faceless group of 'twin defenders' who apparently bear the burden of 'proving' Twin should come off, when everyone knows that is impossible.
Also, why don't you address those who simply hate the deck and dance in its demise? Those who make blatantly false or exaggerated claims? Those who purposely provoke responses from "the defenders." FFS, I'd rather have a ban on Twin talk again than not be able to respond to ridiculous statements without berating and eye rolling.
Those users should also stop. In this case, I'm not addressing them directly because the recent Twin talk outbreak does not appear to be prompted by mischaracterizations. Rather, it appears to be prompted by this discussion about tempo decks and how Modern allegedly lacks some pillar strategies.
Re: burden of proof
The burden is always on those who want an unban. That is no more or less true for Twin than any other card. The issue with Twin is that the arguments keep shifting in disingenuous ways as old arguments are addressed. The most glaring example of this was when Twin defenders argued that no top tier blue deck existed. Now that there are top tier blue decks, the argument has shifted again to those decks not being top tier, not being close enough to Twin, not being tempo/snap/bolt, not arising because of Twin's absence, etc. This suggests to me that Twin defenders arent interested in assessing Twin's unban viability based on the format's state. Rather, they have assumed and believe Twin is a safr unban and will reshape any argument or format context to prove that belief.
Compare to SFM and Preordain, two cards with frequent unban discussion, that people go back and forth on. Even SFM, a clear unban frontrunner, has seen shifts in popularity over time as new decka emerged. People have also questioned whether or not the card would be too strong for Humans, Company decks, Abzan, Jeskai, etc. We saw the same with Preordain following the resurgence of Storm and UWx decks. No such doubt or nuance exists for Twin defenders. They present as supremely confident that Twin would be a safe/justified unban with little acknowledgement of risks and pitfalls. No matter how much the format changes, they still present this confidence and have done so for 2.75 years. That's a huge red flag to me as it suggests they have already made up their mind and aren't interested in hearing any objections to their beliefs. It makes for poor unbanning arguments and one-sided discussion.
Feel free to make up some more objections. Its a one sided topic because there are no reasonable objections to it being unbanned.
I dont want to talk about Twin anymore, but you know why people dont debate SFM? Because its a joke of a card in Modern. Preordain? We already have Slight, Opt, Serum. You know why there are not massive debates RAGING on how unjust Preordain being banned is? Its a cantrip. It does not MAKE A DECK.
You comparing Preordain, SFM, and Twin, is what is disingenuous. Just like your supposed lack of bias in the ProTwin/AntiTwin discussions.
No old arguments for Twin staying banned exist. We, YOU AND I, have already been over this. You looked at the data, I looked at the data, and I know several others, INCLUDING THOSE WHO I HAVE RECEIVED PM'S FROM have looked at the data and you KNOW I'M RIGHT.
Nobody is saying Blue is weak. Hell, go back a page, I'm on record as saying we DO have Tempo decks and 2 (UW, Bant Spirts) are at the top of the heap in terms of play ability and power.
Dont bring up SFM as if its going to make a whole new archetype. Its not the same as Twin.
Dont bring up Preordain of all things, as if its going to make a whole new archetype. Its not the same as Twin.
Twin is the only bloody card to be banned and take out an entire deck with no roughly (ban's happen for a reason, to power down strategies) equal replacement, and before anyone makes the idiotic statement of 'play Kiki' they.are.wrong.
I am right, you are right, we are right...the same talking as ever. My arguments are true, yours not true, you know it... etc and so on, this is Boring. Lets talk about New thinks. Humans is not played so often anymore like past months, is this true? If you feel the same, what is the reason for? Is there a data if my personal observation is true?
There are no arguments presented by the AntiTwin crowd. Thats the issue here. Their position is 'well its banned, so it stays that way'. There is no argument at all, that has not been debunked that says Twin needs to remain banned.
As to Humans, its very popular still, see's a ton of paper play, but online it was (I havent been on much the last week) a lot of GY stuff, and UW Control.
and Green Sun's Zenith was removed mostly for diversity's sake among green decks.
Diversity is a terrible argument, do I need to even provide evidence? (USnapcaster Mage/ Serum Visions, GCollected Company/ Noble Hierarch, WThalia/ Path to Exile, BThoughtseize\ Fatal Push, RLightning Bolt)
All these above points are reasons why the original reasons given to us by WOTC for a card being banned is pretty much irrelevant or straight up wrong in today's Modern. With dubious bannings like Wild Nacatl, Bitterblossom, and Sword of the Meek, saying that the burden is on wanting to be unbanned is not axiomatic
FWIW, I do feel ktk is a bit disingenuous. I do feel that the core argument is that Twin is not a monster. The other facts brought up in the past were more of a way to make its unban a positive addition; that it would bring a blue deck, that it would bring a tempo deck, that it would force people to play fair and have interaction, etc.
I do agree though that the burden of proof is on the side of unban, to convince that it is indeed innocuous to unban.
I personally don't think it is neither innocuous nor earth shattering. It would become a good deck. I have no idea if it would straight out replace storm as the best UR deck.
FWIW, I do feel ktk is a bit disingenuous. I do feel that the core argument is that Twin is not a monster. The other facts brought up in the past were more of a way to make its unban a positive addition; that it would bring a blue deck, that it would bring a tempo deck, that it would force people to play fair and have interaction, etc.
I do agree though that the burden of proof is on the side of unban, to convince that it is indeed innocuous to unban.
I personally don't think it is neither innocuous nor earth shattering. It would become a good deck. I have no idea if it would straight out replace storm as the best UR deck.
It was better than Storm before, I dont see how it wouldnt be after.
Regardless, this question of 'proof' is a comical one. How exactly are we to prove this? In a meta as wildly diverse as Modern, in a format which grows and changes WEEKLY online?
We know what Twin is. We know how it plays. There is no proof possible.
its been long enough to where twins passing is just another historical event for the format. its only worthwhile to refer to it as such, but that doesnt mean there isnt anything to be gained by discussing it. its qualities, the environment it dominated in, why it was popular, why it was unpopular, etc. we can juxtapose these things to the current state of affairs for more insight.
i do agree with aazadan though that the difference between the amount of twin and pod talk is telling. id chalk that up to a relatively small number of active posters here, and a high percentage of them (including myself) happened to be twin players. meaning we are more willing and able to provide input on the subject. unfortunately that presents an ever skewed conversation that mimics a couple of old geezers reminiscing about the glory days of old.
----------------------------------------------------
i havent seen much of a downtrend in humans from my paper experience. it caught on quick, but now the honeymoon phase is truly over. as much as people (again, myself including) like to pretend they know what the hell is going on with the format, and or can make accurate predictions or evaluations; most are just licking their finger to gauge the direction of the wind and fancy themselves meteorologists.
dredge, spirits, and UW are newer; therefore they are the 'best' decks. whatever new comes down the line will in turn be magically better, and so on. decks that lose their shine are relegated to meta shuffle.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
We can't prove it, thats why the burden isnt necessarily on the unban crowd. At least for cards that are on the fence and not cards like Mental Mistep.
Storm was like a tier 2 deck pretty much forever after P&P + seething song got banned. The Pyromancer's Ascension build was never that good. Current Modern Storm is way better. This only supports why a lot of old reasoning about banned cards doesnt hold up.
I think thats a very true point (well multiple, I often agree with you tronix) but online the meta shifts not because of overwhelming power, but 'new and shiny'.
Is Mardu a bad deck? I doubt it.
Is Jund terrible? Nope, h0lydiva 5-0 a league with it a week or so ago.
Is UWR still played? Infect? Yep to both.
The Modern format is huge in terms of its depth, and breadth. There is so much going on, even a rogue deck can come out of nowhere even at an event the size of an SCG Open (this weekend has one!) like Ponza or something.
Thats why statements of 'prove it' are pointless. Are we to test against all of Modern? There is ONE WAY to do that, a few dudes running a gauntlet in their LGS isnt it.
How do you prove an opinion anyway? I personally feel that the format is healthier without Twin in it, but it took a while to get here and so many other factors changed along the way that I can't with a straight face "prove" the causality.
"Twin defenders" are of the opinion that Twin's ban was unwarranted and didn't meet WOTC's own criteria. I happen to think WoTC's criteria doesn't involve much more than "what I say goes" but it's also fine to point to boundaries and metrics that we do have. While we know that certain meta numbers are too much (Eldrazi, DRS Jund, etc.), a floor for what constitutes "too much" was never established. So there's really no way to prove that either.
Both sides win and both sides lose, but it doesn't really matter. We're all just giving opinions and theorycrafting anyway.
I personally feel that the format is healthier without Twin in it
Statements like this are already a problem to begin with. There's also a lot to unpack in just these few words. For example, I feel Modern is a lot healthier because of the following cards (below). Now whether or not that has ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with Twin, it's hard not to point at the 80-something cards printed since BFZ that see play in Modern, not to mention multiple unbannings (that have ironically had far less impact than any number of new printings).
To say "Modern is healthy with Twin gone" (implying that it was at least somewhat responsible for the current health) is absurdly disingenuous. The fact that it took nearly three years and required nearly 100 relevant cards added to the format suggests that Twin's removal did nothing to help the format. And that it's possible that instead, removing Twin actually HURT the format, which then took SEVERAL years and MULTIPLE additional bannings to recover from. But hey, who knows what's real anymore?
DOM
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Karn, Scion of Urza
Lyra, Dawnbringer
Damping Sphere
Wizard’s Lightning
Cast Down
XLN
Opt
Search for Azcanta
Settle the Wreckage
Field of Ruin
Sorcerous Spyglass
Unclaimed Territory
Kitesail Freebooter
AKH
Abrade
Hollow One
Nimble Obstructionist
Gideon of the Trials
Vizier of Remedies
Soul-scar Mage
Rhonas
Sweltering Suns
Dredge Cyclers
KLD
Fatal Push
Walking Ballista
Baral, Chief of Compliance
Whir of Invention
Scrap Trawler
Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Ceremonious Rejection
Inventer’s Faire
Torrential Gearhulk
Madcap Experiment
SOI
Liliana the Last Hope
Collective Brutality
Tireless Tracker
Grim Flayer
Selfless Spirit
Spell Queller
Mausoleum Wanderer
Rattlechains
Bedlam Reveler
Cathartic Reunion
Thing in the Ice
Traban Inspector
Nahiri the Harbinger
BFZ
ALL small Eldrazi
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Gideon Ally of Zendikar
Reflector Mage
Kalitas
Reckless Bushwhacker
Enemy creature lands
Cinder Glade
Sanctum of Ugin
Bring to Light
To play devil's advocate, there is an argument to be made that the play lines of Twin themselves, are unhealthy. Not an argument I would be able to make in any seriousness, but...it is one that exists.
I personally feel that the format is healthier without Twin in it
Statements like this are already a problem to begin with. There's also a lot to unpack in just these few words. For example, I feel Modern is a lot healthier because of the following cards (below). Now whether or not that has ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with Twin, it's hard not to point at the 80-something cards printed since BFZ that see play in Modern, not to mention multiple unbannings (that have ironically had far less impact than any number of new printings).
To say "Modern is healthy with Twin gone" (implying that it was at least somewhat responsible for the current health) is absurdly disingenuous. The fact that it took nearly three years and required nearly 100 relevant cards added to the format suggests that Twin's removal did nothing to help the format. And that it's possible that instead, removing Twin actually HURT the format, which then took SEVERAL years and MULTIPLE additional bannings to recover from. But hey, who knows what's real anymore?
DOM
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Karn, Scion of Urza
Lyra, Dawnbringer
Damping Sphere
Wizard’s Lightning
Cast Down
XLN
Opt
Search for Azcanta
Settle the Wreckage
Field of Ruin
Sorcerous Spyglass
Unclaimed Territory
Kitesail Freebooter
AKH
Abrade
Hollow One
Nimble Obstructionist
Gideon of the Trials
Vizier of Remedies
Soul-scar Mage
Rhonas
Sweltering Suns
Dredge Cyclers
KLD
Fatal Push
Walking Ballista
Baral, Chief of Compliance
Whir of Invention
Scrap Trawler
Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Ceremonious Rejection
Inventer’s Faire
Torrential Gearhulk
Madcap Experiment
SOI
Liliana the Last Hope
Collective Brutality
Tireless Tracker
Grim Flayer
Selfless Spirit
Spell Queller
Mausoleum Wanderer
Rattlechains
Bedlam Reveler
Cathartic Reunion
Thing in the Ice
Traban Inspector
Nahiri the Harbinger
BFZ
ALL small Eldrazi
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Gideon Ally of Zendikar
Reflector Mage
Kalitas
Reckless Bushwhacker
Enemy creature lands
Cinder Glade
Sanctum of Ugin
Bring to Light
With all the caveats I laced that with, including the exact issue you raised (cards printed since then and now), you still had a problem with that? Maybe KTK was more right than I first thought.
The most ill feelings I have towards the twin ban was how quickly it happened after a reprint. I literally just finished trading for and buying my playset a week before the announcement. Then with them pushing it out on mtgo first was just icing on the cake. It was poorly handled imho - and much of my gripe was this.
-----------------------
last night was my first experience playing against hardened scales affinity with a combo deck and honestly it felt stupidly lopsided in scales favor. They're just as fast as the premier combo decks of the format and much more resilient. Both games I lost I had a t3 combo in hand and lost to just straight aggro. Yes anecdotal evidence is such, but it's very frightening to know that this is quickly becoming the hurdle to clear. Elves never felt so bad because you had access to pyroclasm - but ravager makes affinity so fluid in dealing with spot and wide removal.
As a long time elves player I don't want to admit this, But I would love to see some kind of lower cmc sweeper that's more playable than pyroclasm. I have no clue how you push something like that through standard though.
I personally feel that the format is healthier without Twin in it
Statements like this are already a problem to begin with. There's also a lot to unpack in just these few words. For example, I feel Modern is a lot healthier because of the following cards (below). Now whether or not that has ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with Twin, it's hard not to point at the 80-something cards printed since BFZ that see play in Modern, not to mention multiple unbannings (that have ironically had far less impact than any number of new printings).
To say "Modern is healthy with Twin gone" (implying that it was at least somewhat responsible for the current health) is absurdly disingenuous. The fact that it took nearly three years and required nearly 100 relevant cards added to the format suggests that Twin's removal did nothing to help the format. And that it's possible that instead, removing Twin actually HURT the format, which then took SEVERAL years and MULTIPLE additional bannings to recover from. But hey, who knows what's real anymore?
DOM
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Karn, Scion of Urza
Lyra, Dawnbringer
Damping Sphere
Wizard’s Lightning
Cast Down
XLN
Opt
Search for Azcanta
Settle the Wreckage
Field of Ruin
Sorcerous Spyglass
Unclaimed Territory
Kitesail Freebooter
AKH
Abrade
Hollow One
Nimble Obstructionist
Gideon of the Trials
Vizier of Remedies
Soul-scar Mage
Rhonas
Sweltering Suns
Dredge Cyclers
KLD
Fatal Push
Walking Ballista
Baral, Chief of Compliance
Whir of Invention
Scrap Trawler
Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Ceremonious Rejection
Inventer’s Faire
Torrential Gearhulk
Madcap Experiment
SOI
Liliana the Last Hope
Collective Brutality
Tireless Tracker
Grim Flayer
Selfless Spirit
Spell Queller
Mausoleum Wanderer
Rattlechains
Bedlam Reveler
Cathartic Reunion
Thing in the Ice
Traban Inspector
Nahiri the Harbinger
BFZ
ALL small Eldrazi
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Gideon Ally of Zendikar
Reflector Mage
Kalitas
Reckless Bushwhacker
Enemy creature lands
Cinder Glade
Sanctum of Ugin
Bring to Light
With all the caveats I laced that with, including the exact issue you raised (cards printed since then and now), you still had a problem with that? Maybe KTK was more right than I first thought.
I don't mean to use you, specifically, but just as example of a broader problem: we casually just say that "Modern is healthier now that Twin is gone" and accept that as fact. Instead, it is far from that. And every time someone like me points that out, I'm labeled some crazy and obsessed "Twin defender." Casual use of skewed (or sometimes blatantly untrue) statements is alarmingly common in so many facets of life. I'm just trying to show why this "given assumption" isn't as "given" as people make it out to be.
The most ill feelings I have towards the twin ban was how quickly it happened after a reprint. I literally just finished trading for and buying my playset a week before the announcement. Then with them pushing it out on mtgo first was just icing on the cake. It was poorly handled imho - and much of my gripe was this.
I made that exact claim as well, years ago, how insulting it was to reprint Lightning Bolt, Cryptic Command, Electrolyze, Remand, Vendilion Clique, and Splinter Twin itself, shortly before banning Twin and destroying the entire deck. I was in a similar boat; using the reprints to pick up several of my more expensive missing pieces, as well as begin foiling the deck out. "They just reprinted it." "It's a staple of the format." "Of course it's safe to invest in this deck." That was definitely a fun January.
I personally feel that the format is healthier without Twin in it
Statements like this are already a problem to begin with. There's also a lot to unpack in just these few words. For example, I feel Modern is a lot healthier because of the following cards (below). Now whether or not that has ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with Twin, it's hard not to point at the 80-something cards printed since BFZ that see play in Modern, not to mention multiple unbannings (that have ironically had far less impact than any number of new printings).
To say "Modern is healthy with Twin gone" (implying that it was at least somewhat responsible for the current health) is absurdly disingenuous. The fact that it took nearly three years and required nearly 100 relevant cards added to the format suggests that Twin's removal did nothing to help the format. And that it's possible that instead, removing Twin actually HURT the format, which then took SEVERAL years and MULTIPLE additional bannings to recover from. But hey, who knows what's real anymore?
DOM
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Karn, Scion of Urza
Lyra, Dawnbringer
Damping Sphere
Wizard’s Lightning
Cast Down
XLN
Opt
Search for Azcanta
Settle the Wreckage
Field of Ruin
Sorcerous Spyglass
Unclaimed Territory
Kitesail Freebooter
AKH
Abrade
Hollow One
Nimble Obstructionist
Gideon of the Trials
Vizier of Remedies
Soul-scar Mage
Rhonas
Sweltering Suns
Dredge Cyclers
KLD
Fatal Push
Walking Ballista
Baral, Chief of Compliance
Whir of Invention
Scrap Trawler
Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Ceremonious Rejection
Inventer’s Faire
Torrential Gearhulk
Madcap Experiment
SOI
Liliana the Last Hope
Collective Brutality
Tireless Tracker
Grim Flayer
Selfless Spirit
Spell Queller
Mausoleum Wanderer
Rattlechains
Bedlam Reveler
Cathartic Reunion
Thing in the Ice
Traban Inspector
Nahiri the Harbinger
BFZ
ALL small Eldrazi
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Gideon Ally of Zendikar
Reflector Mage
Kalitas
Reckless Bushwhacker
Enemy creature lands
Cinder Glade
Sanctum of Ugin
Bring to Light
With all the caveats I laced that with, including the exact issue you raised (cards printed since then and now), you still had a problem with that? Maybe KTK was more right than I first thought.
I don't mean to use you, specifically, but just as example of a broader problem: we casually just say that "Modern is healthier now that Twin is gone" and accept that as fact. Instead, it is far from that. And every time someone like me points that out, I'm labeled some crazy and obsessed "Twin defender." Casual use of skewed (or sometimes blatantly untrue) statements is alarmingly common in so many facets of life. I'm just trying to show why this "given assumption" isn't as "given" as people make it out to be.
The most ill feelings I have towards the twin ban was how quickly it happened after a reprint. I literally just finished trading for and buying my playset a week before the announcement. Then with them pushing it out on mtgo first was just icing on the cake. It was poorly handled imho - and much of my gripe was this.
I made that exact claim as well, years ago, how insulting it was to reprint Lightning Bolt, Cryptic Command, Electrolyze, Remand, Vendilion Clique, and Splinter Twin itself, shortly before banning Twin and destroying the entire deck. I was in a similar boat; using the reprints to pick up several of my more expensive missing pieces, as well as begin foiling the deck out. "They just reprinted it." "It's a staple of the format." "Of course it's safe to invest in this deck."
I literally bought the entire 4c Saheeli Rai deck after WotC decided no bans and two days later it was banned. Reprints are no indication of a cards bannability or health and should never be taken as such.
I literally bought the entire 4c Saheeli Rai deck after WotC decided no bans and two days later it was banned. Reprints are no indication of a cards bannability or health and should never be taken as such.
Well we know that now. And we know that because of Splinter Twin. But you'd think when they specifically target half a dozen main deck 4x staples for a premiere Modern pillar deck in a set centered around giving players much needed reprints of in-demand cards, that the deck wouldn't be banned 6 months later.
The Saheeli debacle is a whole other story (since the incompetent R&D team missed a game-breaking combo that was discovered within minutes of the card being spoiled).
yeah scales is supposedly slower but more resilient to spot removal effects, while also sporting more burst oriented kills. it still has rare turn 3, and even 1 or 2 turn-2 sequences.
stony silence is really where you want to be against it. that and exile effects/terminus.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
The past page has only proven my point. I never said Twin was a monster. I never even addressed the arguments in favor of Twin's unbanning. Nor did I compare Twin's rationale to other cards. I simply said that Twin users tend to downplay all the arguments against their unban wishes and not consider alternate arguments, unlike those who debate other cards on the banlist. This is precisely the level of blind certainty and confidence we have seen from pro-Twin users in the past page.
The past page has only proven my point. I never said Twin was a monster. I never even addressed the arguments in favor of Twin's unbanning. Nor did I compare Twin's rationale to other cards. I simply said that Twin users tend to downplay all the arguments against their unban wishes and not consider alternate arguments, unlike those who debate other cards on the banlist. This is precisely the level of blind certainty and confidence we have seen from pro-Twin users in the past page.
You are honestly going to say I have not addressed past arguments and discussed them Ad Nauseam?
Nobody even debates Preordain/SFM, because to argue against it is pointless. Anyone scared of SFM doesnt play this format.
The past page has only proven my point. I never said Twin was a monster. I never even addressed the arguments in favor of Twin's unbanning. Nor did I compare Twin's rationale to other cards. I simply said that Twin users tend to downplay all the arguments against their unban wishes and not consider alternate arguments, unlike those who debate other cards on the banlist. This is precisely the level of blind certainty and confidence we have seen from pro-Twin users in the past page.
Just stop. This has already been addressed here and here. You are not adding anything to the conversation by simply complaining about one side of things without offering any meaningful contributions, ideas, or solutions. Never mind that you never once take issue with any of the blatantly incorrect (or purposely-provocative) statements which draw this discussion nearly every time.
I personally feel that the format is healthier without Twin in it
Statements like this are already a problem to begin with. There's also a lot to unpack in just these few words. For example, I feel Modern is a lot healthier because of the following cards (below). Now whether or not that has ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with Twin, it's hard not to point at the 80-something cards printed since BFZ that see play in Modern, not to mention multiple unbannings (that have ironically had far less impact than any number of new printings).
To say "Modern is healthy with Twin gone" (implying that it was at least somewhat responsible for the current health) is absurdly disingenuous. The fact that it took nearly three years and required nearly 100 relevant cards added to the format suggests that Twin's removal did nothing to help the format. And that it's possible that instead, removing Twin actually HURT the format, which then took SEVERAL years and MULTIPLE additional bannings to recover from. But hey, who knows what's real anymore?
DOM
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Karn, Scion of Urza
Lyra, Dawnbringer
Damping Sphere
Wizard’s Lightning
Cast Down
XLN
Opt
Search for Azcanta
Settle the Wreckage
Field of Ruin
Sorcerous Spyglass
Unclaimed Territory
Kitesail Freebooter
AKH
Abrade
Hollow One
Nimble Obstructionist
Gideon of the Trials
Vizier of Remedies
Soul-scar Mage
Rhonas
Sweltering Suns
Dredge Cyclers
KLD
Fatal Push
Walking Ballista
Baral, Chief of Compliance
Whir of Invention
Scrap Trawler
Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Ceremonious Rejection
Inventer’s Faire
Torrential Gearhulk
Madcap Experiment
SOI
Liliana the Last Hope
Collective Brutality
Tireless Tracker
Grim Flayer
Selfless Spirit
Spell Queller
Mausoleum Wanderer
Rattlechains
Bedlam Reveler
Cathartic Reunion
Thing in the Ice
Traban Inspector
Nahiri the Harbinger
BFZ
ALL small Eldrazi
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Gideon Ally of Zendikar
Reflector Mage
Kalitas
Reckless Bushwhacker
Enemy creature lands
Cinder Glade
Sanctum of Ugin
Bring to Light
With all the caveats I laced that with, including the exact issue you raised (cards printed since then and now), you still had a problem with that? Maybe KTK was more right than I first thought.
I don't mean to use you, specifically, but just as example of a broader problem: we casually just say that "Modern is healthier now that Twin is gone" and accept that as fact. Instead, it is far from that. And every time someone like me points that out, I'm labeled some crazy and obsessed "Twin defender." Casual use of skewed (or sometimes blatantly untrue) statements is alarmingly common in so many facets of life. I'm just trying to show why this "given assumption" isn't as "given" as people make it out to be.
The most ill feelings I have towards the twin ban was how quickly it happened after a reprint. I literally just finished trading for and buying my playset a week before the announcement. Then with them pushing it out on mtgo first was just icing on the cake. It was poorly handled imho - and much of my gripe was this.
I made that exact claim as well, years ago, how insulting it was to reprint Lightning Bolt, Cryptic Command, Electrolyze, Remand, Vendilion Clique, and Splinter Twin itself, shortly before banning Twin and destroying the entire deck. I was in a similar boat; using the reprints to pick up several of my more expensive missing pieces, as well as begin foiling the deck out. "They just reprinted it." "It's a staple of the format." "Of course it's safe to invest in this deck." That was definitely a fun January.
The thing is, and this was basically the point I was trying to make, there is literally no difference in saying "I feel the format is healthier without Twin" and "I feel Twin would be fine in the format." They are both opinions, both equally valid, and both patently un-prove-able.
I also bought Twin when it was reprinted. I had the entire deck except the combo pieces, and Exarch and Pestermite have always been cheap, so bought in then. I was hurt by that ban too. I also didn't see it coming. But I understand WotC's rationale, moved on, and have enjoyed Modern without Twin as much as, or more than, Modern with Twin.
Yeah but it doesnt matter, we are this faceless group of 'twin defenders' who apparently bear the burden of 'proving' Twin should come off, when everyone knows that is impossible.
Spirits
Those users should also stop. In this case, I'm not addressing them directly because the recent Twin talk outbreak does not appear to be prompted by mischaracterizations. Rather, it appears to be prompted by this discussion about tempo decks and how Modern allegedly lacks some pillar strategies.
Re: burden of proof
The burden is always on those who want an unban. That is no more or less true for Twin than any other card. The issue with Twin is that the arguments keep shifting in disingenuous ways as old arguments are addressed. The most glaring example of this was when Twin defenders argued that no top tier blue deck existed. Now that there are top tier blue decks, the argument has shifted again to those decks not being top tier, not being close enough to Twin, not being tempo/snap/bolt, not arising because of Twin's absence, etc. This suggests to me that Twin defenders arent interested in assessing Twin's unban viability based on the format's state. Rather, they have assumed and believe Twin is a safr unban and will reshape any argument or format context to prove that belief.
Compare to SFM and Preordain, two cards with frequent unban discussion, that people go back and forth on. Even SFM, a clear unban frontrunner, has seen shifts in popularity over time as new decka emerged. People have also questioned whether or not the card would be too strong for Humans, Company decks, Abzan, Jeskai, etc. We saw the same with Preordain following the resurgence of Storm and UWx decks. No such doubt or nuance exists for Twin defenders. They present as supremely confident that Twin would be a safe/justified unban with little acknowledgement of risks and pitfalls. No matter how much the format changes, they still present this confidence and have done so for 2.75 years. That's a huge red flag to me as it suggests they have already made up their mind and aren't interested in hearing any objections to their beliefs. It makes for poor unbanning arguments and one-sided discussion.
Feel free to make up some more objections. Its a one sided topic because there are no reasonable objections to it being unbanned.
I dont want to talk about Twin anymore, but you know why people dont debate SFM? Because its a joke of a card in Modern. Preordain? We already have Slight, Opt, Serum. You know why there are not massive debates RAGING on how unjust Preordain being banned is? Its a cantrip. It does not MAKE A DECK.
You comparing Preordain, SFM, and Twin, is what is disingenuous. Just like your supposed lack of bias in the ProTwin/AntiTwin discussions.
No old arguments for Twin staying banned exist. We, YOU AND I, have already been over this. You looked at the data, I looked at the data, and I know several others, INCLUDING THOSE WHO I HAVE RECEIVED PM'S FROM have looked at the data and you KNOW I'M RIGHT.
Nobody is saying Blue is weak. Hell, go back a page, I'm on record as saying we DO have Tempo decks and 2 (UW, Bant Spirts) are at the top of the heap in terms of play ability and power.
Dont bring up SFM as if its going to make a whole new archetype. Its not the same as Twin.
Dont bring up Preordain of all things, as if its going to make a whole new archetype. Its not the same as Twin.
Twin is the only bloody card to be banned and take out an entire deck with no roughly (ban's happen for a reason, to power down strategies) equal replacement, and before anyone makes the idiotic statement of 'play Kiki' they.are.wrong.
Spirits
As to Humans, its very popular still, see's a ton of paper play, but online it was (I havent been on much the last week) a lot of GY stuff, and UW Control.
Spirits
I am not sure this is entirely true. If we look at some examples:
Ponder and Preordain
This is a false statement regarding today's current Modern format.
Green Sun's Zenith
Diversity is a terrible argument, do I need to even provide evidence? (USnapcaster Mage/ Serum Visions, GCollected Company/ Noble Hierarch, WThalia/ Path to Exile, BThoughtseize\ Fatal Push, RLightning Bolt)
Second Sunrise
Would current eggs/KCI even use this? Is there evidence the deck with Second Sunrise takes longer than current combo decks?
And then there's Splinter Twin
All these above points are reasons why the original reasons given to us by WOTC for a card being banned is pretty much irrelevant or straight up wrong in today's Modern. With dubious bannings like Wild Nacatl, Bitterblossom, and Sword of the Meek, saying that the burden is on wanting to be unbanned is not axiomatic
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
I do agree though that the burden of proof is on the side of unban, to convince that it is indeed innocuous to unban.
I personally don't think it is neither innocuous nor earth shattering. It would become a good deck. I have no idea if it would straight out replace storm as the best UR deck.
It was better than Storm before, I dont see how it wouldnt be after.
Regardless, this question of 'proof' is a comical one. How exactly are we to prove this? In a meta as wildly diverse as Modern, in a format which grows and changes WEEKLY online?
We know what Twin is. We know how it plays. There is no proof possible.
Spirits
i do agree with aazadan though that the difference between the amount of twin and pod talk is telling. id chalk that up to a relatively small number of active posters here, and a high percentage of them (including myself) happened to be twin players. meaning we are more willing and able to provide input on the subject. unfortunately that presents an ever skewed conversation that mimics a couple of old geezers reminiscing about the glory days of old.
----------------------------------------------------
i havent seen much of a downtrend in humans from my paper experience. it caught on quick, but now the honeymoon phase is truly over. as much as people (again, myself including) like to pretend they know what the hell is going on with the format, and or can make accurate predictions or evaluations; most are just licking their finger to gauge the direction of the wind and fancy themselves meteorologists.
dredge, spirits, and UW are newer; therefore they are the 'best' decks. whatever new comes down the line will in turn be magically better, and so on. decks that lose their shine are relegated to meta shuffle.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Storm was like a tier 2 deck pretty much forever after P&P + seething song got banned. The Pyromancer's Ascension build was never that good. Current Modern Storm is way better. This only supports why a lot of old reasoning about banned cards doesnt hold up.
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Is Mardu a bad deck? I doubt it.
Is Jund terrible? Nope, h0lydiva 5-0 a league with it a week or so ago.
Is UWR still played? Infect? Yep to both.
The Modern format is huge in terms of its depth, and breadth. There is so much going on, even a rogue deck can come out of nowhere even at an event the size of an SCG Open (this weekend has one!) like Ponza or something.
Thats why statements of 'prove it' are pointless. Are we to test against all of Modern? There is ONE WAY to do that, a few dudes running a gauntlet in their LGS isnt it.
Spirits
"Twin defenders" are of the opinion that Twin's ban was unwarranted and didn't meet WOTC's own criteria. I happen to think WoTC's criteria doesn't involve much more than "what I say goes" but it's also fine to point to boundaries and metrics that we do have. While we know that certain meta numbers are too much (Eldrazi, DRS Jund, etc.), a floor for what constitutes "too much" was never established. So there's really no way to prove that either.
Both sides win and both sides lose, but it doesn't really matter. We're all just giving opinions and theorycrafting anyway.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Statements like this are already a problem to begin with. There's also a lot to unpack in just these few words. For example, I feel Modern is a lot healthier because of the following cards (below). Now whether or not that has ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with Twin, it's hard not to point at the 80-something cards printed since BFZ that see play in Modern, not to mention multiple unbannings (that have ironically had far less impact than any number of new printings).
To say "Modern is healthy with Twin gone" (implying that it was at least somewhat responsible for the current health) is absurdly disingenuous. The fact that it took nearly three years and required nearly 100 relevant cards added to the format suggests that Twin's removal did nothing to help the format. And that it's possible that instead, removing Twin actually HURT the format, which then took SEVERAL years and MULTIPLE additional bannings to recover from. But hey, who knows what's real anymore?
Assassin’s Trophy
Risk Factor
Knight of Autumn
Unmoored Ego
Nulhide Ferox
Pelt Collector
Beast Whisperer
M19
Nicol Bolas
Supreme Phantom
Alpine Moon
Remorseful Cleric
Stitcher Supplier
(Notable Reprints)
DOM
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Karn, Scion of Urza
Lyra, Dawnbringer
Damping Sphere
Wizard’s Lightning
Cast Down
XLN
Opt
Search for Azcanta
Settle the Wreckage
Field of Ruin
Sorcerous Spyglass
Unclaimed Territory
Kitesail Freebooter
AKH
Abrade
Hollow One
Nimble Obstructionist
Gideon of the Trials
Vizier of Remedies
Soul-scar Mage
Rhonas
Sweltering Suns
Dredge Cyclers
KLD
Fatal Push
Walking Ballista
Baral, Chief of Compliance
Whir of Invention
Scrap Trawler
Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Ceremonious Rejection
Inventer’s Faire
Torrential Gearhulk
Madcap Experiment
SOI
Liliana the Last Hope
Collective Brutality
Tireless Tracker
Grim Flayer
Selfless Spirit
Spell Queller
Mausoleum Wanderer
Rattlechains
Bedlam Reveler
Cathartic Reunion
Thing in the Ice
Traban Inspector
Nahiri the Harbinger
BFZ
ALL small Eldrazi
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Gideon Ally of Zendikar
Reflector Mage
Kalitas
Reckless Bushwhacker
Enemy creature lands
Cinder Glade
Sanctum of Ugin
Bring to Light
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Spirits
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
-----------------------
last night was my first experience playing against hardened scales affinity with a combo deck and honestly it felt stupidly lopsided in scales favor. They're just as fast as the premier combo decks of the format and much more resilient. Both games I lost I had a t3 combo in hand and lost to just straight aggro. Yes anecdotal evidence is such, but it's very frightening to know that this is quickly becoming the hurdle to clear. Elves never felt so bad because you had access to pyroclasm - but ravager makes affinity so fluid in dealing with spot and wide removal.
As a long time elves player I don't want to admit this, But I would love to see some kind of lower cmc sweeper that's more playable than pyroclasm. I have no clue how you push something like that through standard though.
Spirits
I don't mean to use you, specifically, but just as example of a broader problem: we casually just say that "Modern is healthier now that Twin is gone" and accept that as fact. Instead, it is far from that. And every time someone like me points that out, I'm labeled some crazy and obsessed "Twin defender." Casual use of skewed (or sometimes blatantly untrue) statements is alarmingly common in so many facets of life. I'm just trying to show why this "given assumption" isn't as "given" as people make it out to be.
I made that exact claim as well, years ago, how insulting it was to reprint Lightning Bolt, Cryptic Command, Electrolyze, Remand, Vendilion Clique, and Splinter Twin itself, shortly before banning Twin and destroying the entire deck. I was in a similar boat; using the reprints to pick up several of my more expensive missing pieces, as well as begin foiling the deck out. "They just reprinted it." "It's a staple of the format." "Of course it's safe to invest in this deck." That was definitely a fun January.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I literally bought the entire 4c Saheeli Rai deck after WotC decided no bans and two days later it was banned. Reprints are no indication of a cards bannability or health and should never be taken as such.
Well we know that now. And we know that because of Splinter Twin. But you'd think when they specifically target half a dozen main deck 4x staples for a premiere Modern pillar deck in a set centered around giving players much needed reprints of in-demand cards, that the deck wouldn't be banned 6 months later.
The Saheeli debacle is a whole other story (since the incompetent R&D team missed a game-breaking combo that was discovered within minutes of the card being spoiled).
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
stony silence is really where you want to be against it. that and exile effects/terminus.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)You are honestly going to say I have not addressed past arguments and discussed them Ad Nauseam?
Nobody even debates Preordain/SFM, because to argue against it is pointless. Anyone scared of SFM doesnt play this format.
Spirits
Just stop. This has already been addressed here and here. You are not adding anything to the conversation by simply complaining about one side of things without offering any meaningful contributions, ideas, or solutions. Never mind that you never once take issue with any of the blatantly incorrect (or purposely-provocative) statements which draw this discussion nearly every time.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I also bought Twin when it was reprinted. I had the entire deck except the combo pieces, and Exarch and Pestermite have always been cheap, so bought in then. I was hurt by that ban too. I also didn't see it coming. But I understand WotC's rationale, moved on, and have enjoyed Modern without Twin as much as, or more than, Modern with Twin.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero