I personally think that 2-3 Ensnaring Bridge in the sideboard of Burn is the correct call and has been through most of Burn's Modern existence. I always feel like it is a budget constraint when it is not run or at least that someone is expecting few creatures to attack.
Or rather: it is a SB card which most burn player do not appreciate, since it neither does win the game nor handles the cards which prevents you from winning the game.
So a psychology thing imo.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Thing is, they will seemingly continue to print cards that Dredge can break, or leads to breaking Dredge.
The Graveyard is just too important of a resource for design space/leveraging.
The answer, is unban Twin. That's it. Dredge is not too good, as it can be hated out, the problem is all these decks that just dont care. Dredge can just dredge things, and not even play the same game as everyone else so you MUST answer it. Then you have Hollow One, not much you can hate there, but GY hate helps, but you need to also have exile removal, and artifact removal, then you have to deal with GDS ripping up your hand and deploying those 1 mana 5/5's oh and here's that 1 mana counter to removal...cool. Hey got through that? Here's Tron to ***** on you. ENJOY your time in Modern.
I personally think that 2-3 Ensnaring Bridge in the sideboard of Burn is the correct call and has been through most of Burn's Modern existence. I always feel like it is a budget constraint when it is not run or at least that someone is expecting few creatures to attack.
Or rather: it is a SB card which most burn player do not appreciate, since it neither does win the game nor handles the cards which prevents you from winning the game.
So a psychology thing imo.
Greetings,
Kathal
I think it's not really the type of game a Burn player usually wants to play. You're right. But if you can sit behind an Ensnaring Bridge while tossing Burn to the face, that seems like a winning strategy. (I know I saw Jon Stern, Canadian Pro Player, run it in his Burn sideboard at the GP.)
I always wondered why I didn't see it more often, especially at the GP level where all players are paying $80 for the GP fee and much more for food, lodging, and travel. If you can afford that...
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Playing cards vs flavor of months is not warping. Come on guys, so less time and you all are frightened? Dont do it, just adapt your deck. This is Magic, no deck can play same 60/75 cards forever...it is normal. How often we talk each month about this banmanias? And still people overreact each month again?
Playing cards vs flavor of months is not warping. Come on guys, so less time and you all are frightened? Dont do it, just adapt your deck. This is Magic, no deck can play same 60/75 cards forever...it is normal. How often we talk each month about this banmanias? And still people overreact each month again?
Dredge is not flavour of the month. Arclight is.
Dredge demands dedicated hate, from near everyone.
No, its not normal, and yes it should be the definition of warping. Its like when Burn starts running Ensnaring Bridge. Its an indication of a warped meta. Ive played against Mardu running main deck Surgicals now as well.
Nov 26th cannot come soon enough.
I personally think that 2-3 Ensnaring Bridge in the sideboard of Burn is the correct call and has been through most of Burn's Modern existence. I always feel like it is a budget constraint when it is not run or at least that someone is expecting few creatures to attack.
It is effective sideboard card when used against creature decks that don't expect it. One reason why my ponza deck had one Dissenter's Deliverance in the main. Bridge is valued in our community.. the two stronghold ensnaring bridge that I had, were still bought when I posted them on facebook, even though those bridges are not near mint condition anymore.
I was the Shadow player, I expected to play against a lot of Dredge and Hollow One and wasn't disappointed. I think that Death's Shadow takes great advantage of Surgical, and that the current MTGO metagame is actually a boon for Shadow because it makes running the Surgicals main a good thing. Death's Shadow lines up really well against the current version of Dredge, I'm on something like a 6 match win streak against it online.
Playing cards vs flavor of months is not warping. Come on guys, so less time and you all are frightened? Dont do it, just adapt your deck. This is Magic, no deck can play same 60/75 cards forever...it is normal. How often we talk each month about this banmanias? And still people overreact each month again?
Dredge is not flavour of the month. Arclight is.
Dredge demands dedicated hate, from near everyone.
As I said earlier, I think it's both the demand for GY hate, and the impact that hate has when drawn in the games. In a warped battle of sideboards metagame, we'd expect an uptick in SB GY hate AND we'd expect that hate to have an oversized impact on games where it is drawn/played. For example, maybe the person who draws Leyline is 75% likely to win the Dredge matchup but only 25% if they miss their GY hate. That would be a true battle of sideboards metagame and would likely result in action.
But again, one GP doesn't mean anything for banning purposes, except maybe Stirrings because it continues a yearlong trend. We need at least another big event, or many smaller ones, to draw meaningful conclusions about Dredge.
I personally think Dredge is fine. I think it should be fine to play 3 maybe 4 dedicated gravehate for the graveyard based decks. The more fair midrange decks such as Jund, UW control, GSD etc all have tools and enough sideboard slots to fight these matchups.
its becoming more common now that these sideboards are usually a combination of this:
3 Gravehate - Rip, Cage, Surgical
3 Cards for big mana decks, i.e. Fulminator/ Disdainful Stroke/ Ceremonious Reject etc
2-3 Sweepers, Anger, Verdict, Staticaster etc
2-3 Cards for Grindy matchups. (Kitchen Finks overlaps with the second)
2 Anti- Combo/ burn cards like Dispel, Duress, Brutality etc.
The fair decks need to have good tools to fight these matchups. Terminus for example can really help against the dredge matchups, the new Assassin trophy/ Damping sphere were also good prints to help with bad matchups.
I personally think Dredge is fine. I think it should be fine to play 3 maybe 4 dedicated gravehate for the graveyard based decks. The more fair midrange decks such as Jund, UW control, GSD etc all have tools and enough sideboard slots to fight these matchups.
its becoming more common now that these sideboards are usually a combination of this:
3 Gravehate - Rip, Cage, Surgical
3 Cards for big mana decks, i.e. Fulminator/ Disdainful Stroke/ Ceremonious Reject etc
2-3 Sweepers, Anger, Verdict, Staticaster etc
2-3 Cards for Grindy matchups. (Kitchen Finks overlaps with the second)
2 Anti- Combo/ burn cards like Dispel, Duress, Brutality etc.
The fair decks need to have good tools to fight these matchups. Terminus for example can really help against the dredge matchups, the new Assassin trophy/ Damping sphere were also good prints to help with bad matchups.
Like I said and GK mentioned above, it's not just that SBs have 3-4 GY hate cards. That's probably fine on its own. The problems also include MD GY cards, as GK noted, and if those GY hate cards are disproportionately affecting the outcome of the game. I'm not sure if we're there yet, but you can compare to games and lists in late 2016 to check.
Playing cards vs flavor of months is not warping. Come on guys, so less time and you all are frightened? Dont do it, just adapt your deck. This is Magic, no deck can play same 60/75 cards forever...it is normal. How often we talk each month about this banmanias? And still people overreact each month again?
Dredge is not flavour of the month. Arclight is.
Dredge demands dedicated hate, from near everyone.
Very true. It is even harder against experienced Dredge players who have a habit of saving a looter and a dredger in hand.. that allows them to keep going when their yard get's cleared.
Well, if using Living End.. I can sometimes beat them game 1 with a good hand, we are both gy combo decks after all.
A card I hate in Dredge is Conflagrate.. sometimes it goes like this.. they use multiple Life from the Loam to return three cards in hand at a time, then discard everything for plenty of damage - lethal when my life is low from cycling street wraiths. :#
i think modern decks are more resilient to hate, or disruption in general. so some cards, say like thoughtseize, give you less bang for your buck. still good, but added together its noticeable. i mean if these decks like kci, dredge, hollow one, hardened scales, etc. werent good at fighting through resistance, they wouldnt be top tier decks.
i brought it up earlier, but i think its a matter of consistency. decks that have a single minded strategy, or close to it, build their deck to execute that one thing. other decks arent - the oft referred to 'drawing the wrong half of your deck'. so what would make this potentially a problem now when it hasnt in the past? the only conclusion i can think up is that generic, main deckable, disruption/interaction is less potent; therefore it places more pressure on those sideboard cards to show up.
wizards has gone out of there way to print some 'helper' cards like damping sphere, amulet of safekeeping, infernal reckoning etc, but its not enough. they are still too narrow.
maybe its like KT pointed out with that twitter comment, and that its not specific to modern. however to this day ive never seen one comment about legacy sideboard squeeze. yet its a bigger format with even more degenerate stuff going on. id say a large part of it is because of blue, but answers in general from olden days of magic were notoriously good at ignoring or invalidating text boxes. however it isnt feasible to port that into modern, and i think a good portion of people wouldnt want it if it were offered.
its because of this that i voted to unban twin, sfm, gsz, preordain, and punishing fire.
-twin and gsz because they give rise to powerful creature decks - which is the easiest axis to interact with in the game.
-sfm is a cheap threat that is consistent at playing its needed role - simply put its the ideal midrange card. a new/better option for decks looking to ride the line between proactive and reactive sounds like a positive change to me.
-preordain because it offers a generic cantrip to anyone who isnt taking part in using stirrings or lootings; its a minor upgrade to existing options, but because the selection is frontloaded is ideal for finding disruptive components when you need them. it helps combo, but id argue those decks are already brimming with consistency tools meaning the impact is diffuse. as in one deck upgrading 4/4 cards with X effect, and another upgrading 4/12.
-lastly punishing fire is just a much needed check against opponents flooding the board with garbage, and it offers GRx a unique position in the format. the idea that it would decimate tribal decks is nonsense to me, tribal decks of the past just werent in the same league. fewer creature options, and less means to deploy them.
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I personally think Dredge is fine. I think it should be fine to play 3 maybe 4 dedicated gravehate for the graveyard based decks. The more fair midrange decks such as Jund, UW control, GSD etc all have tools and enough sideboard slots to fight these matchups.
its becoming more common now that these sideboards are usually a combination of this:
3 Gravehate - Rip, Cage, Surgical
3 Cards for big mana decks, i.e. Fulminator/ Disdainful Stroke/ Ceremonious Reject etc
2-3 Sweepers, Anger, Verdict, Staticaster etc
2-3 Cards for Grindy matchups. (Kitchen Finks overlaps with the second)
2 Anti- Combo/ burn cards like Dispel, Duress, Brutality etc.
The fair decks need to have good tools to fight these matchups. Terminus for example can really help against the dredge matchups, the new Assassin trophy/ Damping sphere were also good prints to help with bad matchups.
Like I said and GK mentioned above, it's not just that SBs have 3-4 GY hate cards. That's probably fine on its own. The problems also include MD GY cards, as GK noted, and if those GY hate cards are disproportionately affecting the outcome of the game. I'm not sure if we're there yet, but you can compare to games and lists in late 2016 to check.
I personally see the need to main deck GY cards in some cases as a side-effect of having a diverse metagame filled with Combo, aggro etc. Every deck by nature has bad matchups post board. I believe being weak to certain archetypes is a concession fair decks need to make in their 75; By nature, you cannot expect to go 50+ in every single matchup.
If you want to talk about cards that disproportionately affect the outcome of the game, you could make the case that terminus is also a giant issue because it seriously hinders creature based aggro decks. You could make the case that thoughtseize is too powerful as it breaks up combo decks like ad nauseam too much.
If you take dredge say out of the equation, then the Jund/ UWx players will complain about how they don't have answers to stuff like Tron or creature from Cavern of souls or Blood Moon etc.
A card I hate in Dredge is Conflagrate.. sometimes it goes like this.. they use multiple Life from the Loam to return three cards in hand at a time, then discard everything for plenty of damage - lethal when my life is low from cycling street wraiths. :#
Life from the Loam/Conflag is a great portion of the deck, I mean when you look at Dredge, its an amazing deck. It has reach, it has interactions between many of its cards, its using synergy between fetch lands, there is so much going on with it, that Chill is just icing on the top now.
I dont begrudge it at all.
Same for Hollow One, GDS, Tron.
These decks are so refined now, they are amazing when looked at from an analytical point of view, especially in comparison to the decks that are stretched trying to answer them.
Is this normal? It seems like a severe warping of the metagame. This really sucks big time. An environment where you need to mainboard sideboard options that can be totally useless vs decks that don't use the specific element (here it is graveyard), feels very suffocating.
IMO, none of those SB choices are abnormal. Surgical is just plainly a good card that can be sided in against almost any deck, assuming you know what your opponent is on. Similarly, RiP is another SB card that's too good not to play for any deck with access to white mana.
4 RIPs is unusual for UW control. normally you only want/need 2, then you can diversify those other slots with similar acting effects with more efficacy in other matchups. though if you want to hate on the GY zone, nothing is stronger.
bojuka bog is a pretty normal inclusion for a land tutor package. much like tron might play Scavenger Grounds. relics are also a regular inclusion into tron's main deck - at least it became so with the advent of mono-G.
Surgical looks to be at an all time high usage though. i cant verify that, but i cant remember ever seeing people just straight up playing 3-4 of them. its good in a lot of matchups in modern, but its worrisome because of the decks its good against. as in people are seeing more of the combo/GY stuff that needs serious cheap and decisive interaction therefore they play more. i mean just look at Nikachu's merfolk list from the challenge. 4x mistcallers main with no cursecatchers and 4x surgicals in the side. you cant seriously tell me that this is a normal build for merfolk.
then of course there are people playing these cards in the main deck, which outside of cases like relics in tron or ponza or 1-2 nihil spellbombs in black midrange decks for the artifact card type - its not normal.
McWinSauce, one of the most consistently posted UW players on mtgo, posted a write up reddit about his 7-2 run in the PTQ (the results arent posted on wotcs website as of yet). he describes his experience and how it lead him to play RIPs in the main, emulating the player from the previous mtgo challenge. he legitimately thought making the UW deck significantly weaker by including RIPs was the right call. the irony of it all was that he didnt even play against dredge during the tournament, just hollow one. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yoUe-6Trm3NrM7-zsD2cHZo4vfa0ygvw63b9gHs-HoQ/edit
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I can tell you it IS a normal build of nikachu and a lot of other merfolk players, because i play merfolk and i watched each of his YouTube Videos since 4 years. He change a lot of his cards often because he is a streamer and do earn money with, so it is allways interesting to watch. But He use mistcaller bevore dredge become this New toy, so never say:" dont tell me it is normal"...i tell you it IS normal. Surgicals in side replaced relics, because he use now too peek and knew Hands of opponent. Please dont take again any list and think you knew why people did it
I was the Shadow player, I expected to play against a lot of Dredge and Hollow One and wasn't disappointed. I think that Death's Shadow takes great advantage of Surgical, and that the current MTGO metagame is actually a boon for Shadow because it makes running the Surgicals main a good thing. Death's Shadow lines up really well against the current version of Dredge, I'm on something like a 6 match win streak against it online.
because you changed some little mainboardcards instead of calling for bannings. Thats the way to go! Dont talk all why you cant change your Decks, do it guys
Surgical looks to be at an all time high usage though. i cant verify that, but i cant remember ever seeing people just straight up playing 3-4 of them. its good in a lot of matchups in modern, but its worrisome because of the decks its good against. as in people are seeing more of the combo/GY stuff that needs serious cheap and decisive interaction therefore they play more. i mean just look at Nikachu's merfolk list from the challenge. 4x mistcallers main with no cursecatchers and 4x surgicals in the side. you cant seriously tell me that this is a normal build for merfolk.
Surgical's usage rate is also aided by the fact that it can slot into any deck thanks to phyrexian mana. While I agree that MB RiP is unusual and not a great sign for the format, I think you could make an argument for MB surgicals. I started playing 3 SB copies in the two modern decks I play most (Bogles + Ponza) a few months ago mainly to deal with hand-disruption, but I can almost always find a use for them whenever sideboarding.
yeah i dont think its time to call anything definitive yet. i think its right to give dredge the benefit of the doubt just like many other decks were given. however what we are seeing are not data points in its favor. if even our pattern recognition is kicking in here where we dont have a lot of data to work with, just imagine what wizards might be seeing.
tbh i believe the format was moving in this direction already. dredge just seems to be the straw that broke the camels back or w/e.
for those in the 'just play cards good against your opponents deck' or 'its just a natural in the meta to adapt' camp. you are missing the point. the point is that none of these decks in question, including dredge, are represented enough to warrant skewing a deck in one direction or another. the fact that dredge isnt just dominating and taking over the format is the issue in itself. for the majority of modern players no real meta exists, and it becomes doubly so if you move beyond the local into tournaments that are truly open fields. mtgo is a unique case because you actually CAN meta to some degree because of all the bandwagoning and inbreeding in events.
so the field is open, but the set of decks at the top of the format contains multiple disparate but linear strategies, each demanding a unique set of answers AND bringing tools of their own to play back against them. do you not see how diversity shields these decks? or how its innately easier to prepare for opposing hate rather than doing the hating yourself?
that is why people are worried about dredge. because its a deck that is abusing the GY so resoundingly through the dredge mechanic that you absolutely need hate against it (or hope to go under them). its just the format itself works against you being able to.
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that is why people are worried about dredge. because its a deck that is abusing the GY so resoundingly through the dredge mechanic that you absolutely need hate against it (or hope to go under them). its just the format itself works against you being able to.
For me, it feels like the format starting a little bit to feel like Legacy. Oh, and I don't mean we are a dying format.. what I mean is years ago I never go to a legacy fnm without gy hate. Modern feels like it has become like that... even if I didn't see a gy deck the previous week, I would still bring 3-4 this night because Dredge and friends might show up.
A card I hate in Dredge is Conflagrate.. sometimes it goes like this.. they use multiple Life from the Loam to return three cards in hand at a time, then discard everything for plenty of damage - lethal when my life is low from cycling street wraiths. :#
Life from the Loam/Conflag is a great portion of the deck, I mean when you look at Dredge, its an amazing deck. It has reach, it has interactions between many of its cards, its using synergy between fetch lands, there is so much going on with it, that Chill is just icing on the top now.
I dont begrudge it at all.
Hmm, I do hate conflagrate.. but I don't hate the Dredge deck as a whole. They are challenging to play against, and that's the fun of it. One well placed creeping corrosion is almost free win against traditional affinity, for Dredge It takes not just one, but multiple gy disruptions to keep them down. About Creep Chill, sometimes they don't have it...sometimes they have it and I start the game at 14 life. Made me change the main deck of Living End to have two Deathgorge Scavenger in the main, they help reduce pressure from bloodghsts and heal some damage taken from chill.
I was thinking about this after your post, and I just feel that the most refined proactive decks are so tight now, that it puts them on that next level.
I'm not sure if GDS is there or even if there are 5 decks in this realm.
Dredge
Tron
Hollow One
KCI?
Humans or Spirits?
Something like that I think, as far as the best built Modern decks.
So a psychology thing imo.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
The Graveyard is just too important of a resource for design space/leveraging.
The answer, is unban Twin. That's it. Dredge is not too good, as it can be hated out, the problem is all these decks that just dont care. Dredge can just dredge things, and not even play the same game as everyone else so you MUST answer it. Then you have Hollow One, not much you can hate there, but GY hate helps, but you need to also have exile removal, and artifact removal, then you have to deal with GDS ripping up your hand and deploying those 1 mana 5/5's oh and here's that 1 mana counter to removal...cool. Hey got through that? Here's Tron to ***** on you. ENJOY your time in Modern.
I wish Humans was still the top deck...
Spirits
I think it's not really the type of game a Burn player usually wants to play. You're right. But if you can sit behind an Ensnaring Bridge while tossing Burn to the face, that seems like a winning strategy. (I know I saw Jon Stern, Canadian Pro Player, run it in his Burn sideboard at the GP.)
I always wondered why I didn't see it more often, especially at the GP level where all players are paying $80 for the GP fee and much more for food, lodging, and travel. If you can afford that...
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Dredge is not flavour of the month. Arclight is.
Dredge demands dedicated hate, from near everyone.
Spirits
It is effective sideboard card when used against creature decks that don't expect it. One reason why my ponza deck had one Dissenter's Deliverance in the main. Bridge is valued in our community.. the two stronghold ensnaring bridge that I had, were still bought when I posted them on facebook, even though those bridges are not near mint condition anymore.
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As I said earlier, I think it's both the demand for GY hate, and the impact that hate has when drawn in the games. In a warped battle of sideboards metagame, we'd expect an uptick in SB GY hate AND we'd expect that hate to have an oversized impact on games where it is drawn/played. For example, maybe the person who draws Leyline is 75% likely to win the Dredge matchup but only 25% if they miss their GY hate. That would be a true battle of sideboards metagame and would likely result in action.
But again, one GP doesn't mean anything for banning purposes, except maybe Stirrings because it continues a yearlong trend. We need at least another big event, or many smaller ones, to draw meaningful conclusions about Dredge.
Spirits
its becoming more common now that these sideboards are usually a combination of this:
3 Gravehate - Rip, Cage, Surgical
3 Cards for big mana decks, i.e. Fulminator/ Disdainful Stroke/ Ceremonious Reject etc
2-3 Sweepers, Anger, Verdict, Staticaster etc
2-3 Cards for Grindy matchups. (Kitchen Finks overlaps with the second)
2 Anti- Combo/ burn cards like Dispel, Duress, Brutality etc.
The fair decks need to have good tools to fight these matchups. Terminus for example can really help against the dredge matchups, the new Assassin trophy/ Damping sphere were also good prints to help with bad matchups.
Like I said and GK mentioned above, it's not just that SBs have 3-4 GY hate cards. That's probably fine on its own. The problems also include MD GY cards, as GK noted, and if those GY hate cards are disproportionately affecting the outcome of the game. I'm not sure if we're there yet, but you can compare to games and lists in late 2016 to check.
Very true. It is even harder against experienced Dredge players who have a habit of saving a looter and a dredger in hand.. that allows them to keep going when their yard get's cleared.
Well, if using Living End.. I can sometimes beat them game 1 with a good hand, we are both gy combo decks after all.
A card I hate in Dredge is Conflagrate.. sometimes it goes like this.. they use multiple Life from the Loam to return three cards in hand at a time, then discard everything for plenty of damage - lethal when my life is low from cycling street wraiths. :#
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i brought it up earlier, but i think its a matter of consistency. decks that have a single minded strategy, or close to it, build their deck to execute that one thing. other decks arent - the oft referred to 'drawing the wrong half of your deck'. so what would make this potentially a problem now when it hasnt in the past? the only conclusion i can think up is that generic, main deckable, disruption/interaction is less potent; therefore it places more pressure on those sideboard cards to show up.
wizards has gone out of there way to print some 'helper' cards like damping sphere, amulet of safekeeping, infernal reckoning etc, but its not enough. they are still too narrow.
maybe its like KT pointed out with that twitter comment, and that its not specific to modern. however to this day ive never seen one comment about legacy sideboard squeeze. yet its a bigger format with even more degenerate stuff going on. id say a large part of it is because of blue, but answers in general from olden days of magic were notoriously good at ignoring or invalidating text boxes. however it isnt feasible to port that into modern, and i think a good portion of people wouldnt want it if it were offered.
its because of this that i voted to unban twin, sfm, gsz, preordain, and punishing fire.
-twin and gsz because they give rise to powerful creature decks - which is the easiest axis to interact with in the game.
-sfm is a cheap threat that is consistent at playing its needed role - simply put its the ideal midrange card. a new/better option for decks looking to ride the line between proactive and reactive sounds like a positive change to me.
-preordain because it offers a generic cantrip to anyone who isnt taking part in using stirrings or lootings; its a minor upgrade to existing options, but because the selection is frontloaded is ideal for finding disruptive components when you need them. it helps combo, but id argue those decks are already brimming with consistency tools meaning the impact is diffuse. as in one deck upgrading 4/4 cards with X effect, and another upgrading 4/12.
-lastly punishing fire is just a much needed check against opponents flooding the board with garbage, and it offers GRx a unique position in the format. the idea that it would decimate tribal decks is nonsense to me, tribal decks of the past just werent in the same league. fewer creature options, and less means to deploy them.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I personally see the need to main deck GY cards in some cases as a side-effect of having a diverse metagame filled with Combo, aggro etc. Every deck by nature has bad matchups post board. I believe being weak to certain archetypes is a concession fair decks need to make in their 75; By nature, you cannot expect to go 50+ in every single matchup.
If you want to talk about cards that disproportionately affect the outcome of the game, you could make the case that terminus is also a giant issue because it seriously hinders creature based aggro decks. You could make the case that thoughtseize is too powerful as it breaks up combo decks like ad nauseam too much.
If you take dredge say out of the equation, then the Jund/ UWx players will complain about how they don't have answers to stuff like Tron or creature from Cavern of souls or Blood Moon etc.
Life from the Loam/Conflag is a great portion of the deck, I mean when you look at Dredge, its an amazing deck. It has reach, it has interactions between many of its cards, its using synergy between fetch lands, there is so much going on with it, that Chill is just icing on the top now.
I dont begrudge it at all.
Same for Hollow One, GDS, Tron.
These decks are so refined now, they are amazing when looked at from an analytical point of view, especially in comparison to the decks that are stretched trying to answer them.
In short, Wrapter is correct.
Spirits
IMO, none of those SB choices are abnormal. Surgical is just plainly a good card that can be sided in against almost any deck, assuming you know what your opponent is on. Similarly, RiP is another SB card that's too good not to play for any deck with access to white mana.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
bojuka bog is a pretty normal inclusion for a land tutor package. much like tron might play Scavenger Grounds. relics are also a regular inclusion into tron's main deck - at least it became so with the advent of mono-G.
Surgical looks to be at an all time high usage though. i cant verify that, but i cant remember ever seeing people just straight up playing 3-4 of them. its good in a lot of matchups in modern, but its worrisome because of the decks its good against. as in people are seeing more of the combo/GY stuff that needs serious cheap and decisive interaction therefore they play more. i mean just look at Nikachu's merfolk list from the challenge. 4x mistcallers main with no cursecatchers and 4x surgicals in the side. you cant seriously tell me that this is a normal build for merfolk.
then of course there are people playing these cards in the main deck, which outside of cases like relics in tron or ponza or 1-2 nihil spellbombs in black midrange decks for the artifact card type - its not normal.
McWinSauce, one of the most consistently posted UW players on mtgo, posted a write up reddit about his 7-2 run in the PTQ (the results arent posted on wotcs website as of yet). he describes his experience and how it lead him to play RIPs in the main, emulating the player from the previous mtgo challenge. he legitimately thought making the UW deck significantly weaker by including RIPs was the right call. the irony of it all was that he didnt even play against dredge during the tournament, just hollow one.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yoUe-6Trm3NrM7-zsD2cHZo4vfa0ygvw63b9gHs-HoQ/edit
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Surgical's usage rate is also aided by the fact that it can slot into any deck thanks to phyrexian mana. While I agree that MB RiP is unusual and not a great sign for the format, I think you could make an argument for MB surgicals. I started playing 3 SB copies in the two modern decks I play most (Bogles + Ponza) a few months ago mainly to deal with hand-disruption, but I can almost always find a use for them whenever sideboarding.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
tbh i believe the format was moving in this direction already. dredge just seems to be the straw that broke the camels back or w/e.
for those in the 'just play cards good against your opponents deck' or 'its just a natural in the meta to adapt' camp. you are missing the point. the point is that none of these decks in question, including dredge, are represented enough to warrant skewing a deck in one direction or another. the fact that dredge isnt just dominating and taking over the format is the issue in itself. for the majority of modern players no real meta exists, and it becomes doubly so if you move beyond the local into tournaments that are truly open fields. mtgo is a unique case because you actually CAN meta to some degree because of all the bandwagoning and inbreeding in events.
so the field is open, but the set of decks at the top of the format contains multiple disparate but linear strategies, each demanding a unique set of answers AND bringing tools of their own to play back against them. do you not see how diversity shields these decks? or how its innately easier to prepare for opposing hate rather than doing the hating yourself?
that is why people are worried about dredge. because its a deck that is abusing the GY so resoundingly through the dredge mechanic that you absolutely need hate against it (or hope to go under them). its just the format itself works against you being able to.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)For me, it feels like the format starting a little bit to feel like Legacy. Oh, and I don't mean we are a dying format.. what I mean is years ago I never go to a legacy fnm without gy hate. Modern feels like it has become like that... even if I didn't see a gy deck the previous week, I would still bring 3-4 this night because Dredge and friends might show up.
Hmm, I do hate conflagrate.. but I don't hate the Dredge deck as a whole. They are challenging to play against, and that's the fun of it. One well placed creeping corrosion is almost free win against traditional affinity, for Dredge It takes not just one, but multiple gy disruptions to keep them down. About Creep Chill, sometimes they don't have it...sometimes they have it and I start the game at 14 life. Made me change the main deck of Living End to have two Deathgorge Scavenger in the main, they help reduce pressure from bloodghsts and heal some damage taken from chill.
EDIT: just have one dino now, two is too many
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
I'm not sure if GDS is there or even if there are 5 decks in this realm.
Dredge
Tron
Hollow One
KCI?
Humans or Spirits?
Something like that I think, as far as the best built Modern decks.
Spirits
Now it is fueling all sorts of graveyard based decks: dredge, hollow one, Rx Phoenix, Bridge-Vine
This will probably spark an discussion again on what's fair and unfair but I count 27 fair decks here.