I wish I could get excited about Team Unified Modern, but it's really tough because the potentially enjoyable gameplay has so much metagame and community baggage. This includes:
1. Team results not mattering from a metagame perspective
2. Unified environments favoring perceived best decks to create visibly warped metagames
3. People complaining about Team results as if they were regular solo-GP results
4. Excessive mirror matches
5. Twitch chat (at least this one can be resolved by hiding the chat window)
6. Post-GP conversation getting heavily influenced by an event that shouldn't matter
7. All these qualities combined tend to make the showcased format, especially Modern, look bad
I'm sure there are other reasons to dislike the event too. Overall, I remember how ban-crazy and irrational both this forum and Reddit became after the Team PT Day 1 metagame got posted. I expect a similar level of hysteria during and after this event, but somewhat diminished because a GP draws fewer views than a PT.
I wish I could get excited about Team Unified Modern, but it's really tough because the potentially enjoyable gameplay has so much metagame and community baggage. This includes:
1. Team results not mattering from a metagame perspective 2. Unified environments favoring perceived best decks to create visibly warped metagames
3. People complaining about Team results as if they were regular solo-GP results
4. Excessive mirror matches
5. Twitch chat (at least this one can be resolved by hiding the chat window)
6. Post-GP conversation getting heavily influenced by an event that shouldn't matter
7. All these qualities combined tend to make the showcased format, especially Modern, look bad
I'm sure there are other reasons to dislike the event too. Overall, I remember how ban-crazy and irrational both this forum and Reddit became after the Team PT Day 1 metagame got posted. I expect a similar level of hysteria during and after this event, but somewhat diminished because a GP draws fewer views than a PT.
how do you figure #2? i agree that team events can present a warped view of the format, but im not seeing how the format structure in particular favors the perceived best decks.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I wish I could get excited about Team Unified Modern, but it's really tough because the potentially enjoyable gameplay has so much metagame and community baggage. This includes:
1. Team results not mattering from a metagame perspective 2. Unified environments favoring perceived best decks to create visibly warped metagames
3. People complaining about Team results as if they were regular solo-GP results
4. Excessive mirror matches
5. Twitch chat (at least this one can be resolved by hiding the chat window)
6. Post-GP conversation getting heavily influenced by an event that shouldn't matter
7. All these qualities combined tend to make the showcased format, especially Modern, look bad
I'm sure there are other reasons to dislike the event too. Overall, I remember how ban-crazy and irrational both this forum and Reddit became after the Team PT Day 1 metagame got posted. I expect a similar level of hysteria during and after this event, but somewhat diminished because a GP draws fewer views than a PT.
how do you figure #2? i agree that team events can present a warped view of the format, but im not seeing how the format structure in particular favors the perceived best decks.
Because people will tend to play the perceived best decks and tie cards there, thus reducing the chance that someone will be able to play a rogue deck. E.g. people will probably stick to UW and not go for UWR because as it stands it feels (and maybe it is but this is not the discusison) the best control deck.
Because people will tend to play the perceived best decks and tie cards there, thus reducing the chance that someone will be able to play a rogue deck. E.g. people will probably stick to UW and not go for UWR because as it stands it feels (and maybe it is but this is not the discusison) the best control deck.
right...but that happens at regular events too. more people are going to play UW over UWR because its perceived to be stronger. what about team unified makes it more likely that these decks win more (ie favors)?
i could see some theory about skilled teams being more favored in a match than a skilled individual being plausible. these teams may be more discerning in the deck choices, and then that reflects in the standings.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
right...but that happens at regular events too. more people are going to play UW over UWR because its perceived to be stronger. what about team unified makes it more likely that these decks win more (ie favors)?
Because it takes potential cards away from the other decks.
Because people will tend to play the perceived best decks and tie cards there, thus reducing the chance that someone will be able to play a rogue deck. E.g. people will probably stick to UW and not go for UWR because as it stands it feels (and maybe it is but this is not the discusison) the best control deck.
right...but that happens at regular events too. more people are going to play UW over UWR because its perceived to be stronger. what about team unified makes it more likely that these decks win more (ie favors)?
i could see some theory about skilled teams being more favored in a match than a skilled individual being plausible. these teams may be more discerning in the deck choices, and then that reflects in the standings.
It's not so much about winning more but about skewed deck representation. For example Tron shares very few, if any, cards with other tier 1 or tier 2 decks. That makes it an excellent candidate to be part of a team set up. This might result in higher numbers of Tron in comparison to individual GPs. At then end of they day the stats might show 15-20% Tron which has never happened in any GP the last two years, or the last idk, 5 years :P.
What ktk is saying is that people might take this skewed number at face value saying "look Tron has 20% representation, it is o oppressing, ban Stirring or Tron lands". Now, Tron is an example, I am not saying this exact thing will happen, but that's how team events produce weird datasets.
And a point to illustrate this is that Day 2 so far (Round 10), almost all teams had KCI, a deck that also features mostly unique cards.
Because people will tend to play the perceived best decks and tie cards there, thus reducing the chance that someone will be able to play a rogue deck. E.g. people will probably stick to UW and not go for UWR because as it stands it feels (and maybe it is but this is not the discusison) the best control deck.
right...but that happens at regular events too. more people are going to play UW over UWR because its perceived to be stronger. what about team unified makes it more likely that these decks win more (ie favors)?
i could see some theory about skilled teams being more favored in a match than a skilled individual being plausible. these teams may be more discerning in the deck choices, and then that reflects in the standings.
It's not so much about winning more but about skewed deck representation. For example Tron shares very few, if any, cards with other tier 1 or tier 2 decks. That makes it an excellent candidate to be part of a team set up. This might result in higher numbers of Tron in comparison to individual GPs. At then end of they day the stats might show 15-20% Tron which has never happened in any GP the last two years, or the last idk, 5 years :P.
What ktk is saying is that people might take this skewed number at face value saying "look Tron has 20% representation, it is o oppressing, ban Stirring or Tron lands". Now, Tron is an example, I am not saying this exact thing will happen, but that's how team events produce weird datasets.
And a point to illustrate this is that Day 2 so far (Round 10), almost all teams had KCI, a deck that also features mostly unique cards.
Well said, I wouldn't add much beyond that. I'll only say that this compounds over Team events due to the match-win mechanism. If I slot a Gx Tron into my team but then Gx Tron goes 4-8 while the rest of our team carries at 9-3 or better, Gx Tron still might show up as a T4 or T8 list even though it had a terrible record. With individual GP, we only need to account for Byes to determine a deck's true performance at an event. With Team GP, we never know how individual decks performed without some intensive Twitter and Twitch diving. But no one does that.
At best, this means we all acknowledge Team GP results are meaningless for the broader metagame and only useful as a general indicator of what is probably good. At worst, Modern community members take those results at face value and run rampant with the conclusions.
that explains how decks might be propped up by their team, thus making it so you cant determine deck performance. however it doesnt inherently favor the perceived best decks, in fact it makes it more likely that mediocre decks can ride on the coattails of stronger ones.
the only argument im seeing that supports team unified favoring the perceived best decks is that more people may show up with them; which as far as i know is impossible to determine without day 1 numbers. maybe its true, i dunno. we already know that card availability and preferred playstyles play a role in deck choices in regular GPs, yet for some reason its not a factor at team events and people can choose decks more freely?
thats why i offered the hypothesis earlier that team events attract more players that can switch decks easier, and that these teams do better on average than the individual because team matches may have lower variance (ie skill plays a larger role in winning). so the number of teams playing tiered decks or whatever is inflated.
dont get me wrong, im not disagreeing that team events dont show an accurate picture of the format. im just saying that #2 in kt's list is conjecture at best.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
that explains how decks might be propped up by their team, thus making it so you cant determine deck performance. however it doesnt inherently favor the perceived best decks, in fact it makes it more likely that mediocre decks can ride on the coattails of stronger ones.
the only argument im seeing that supports team unified favoring the perceived best decks is that more people may show up with them; which as far as i know is impossible to determine without day 1 numbers. maybe its true, i dunno. we already know that card availability and preferred playstyles play a role in deck choices in regular GPs, yet for some reason its not a factor at team events and people can choose decks more freely?
thats why i offered the hypothesis earlier that team events attract more players that can switch decks easier, and that these teams do better on average than the individual because team matches may have lower variance (ie skill plays a larger role in winning). so the number of teams playing tiered decks or whatever is inflated.
dont get me wrong, im not disagreeing that team events dont show an accurate picture of the format. im just saying that #2 in kt's list is conjecture at best.
1 Bant Spirits
1 Hardened Scales
1 Hollow One
2 UW Control
1 Mardu Pyromancer
1 Infect
2 Humans
1 Titanshift
1 Mono G Tron
1 Jeskai Control
T4 looks spectacular (and, more importantly, representative of our general understanding of Modern's top-tier). I might be more open-minded to Unified Modern data in the future.
I might be more open-minded to Unified Modern data in the future.
No.
These events are beyond meaningless. In addition to the pointless nature of team result stats, it's a format that forces artificial diversity through card limitations. It's something that is not representative of how anyone plays "Modern" and is almost entirely irrelevant to the "Modern" everyone actually plays.
I might be more open-minded to Unified Modern data in the future.
No.
These events are beyond meaningless. In addition to the pointless nature of team result stats, it's a format that forces artificial diversity through card limitations. It's something that is not representative of how anyone plays "Modern" and is almost entirely irrelevant to the "Modern" everyone actually plays.
I was pretty deliberate in my word choices about being "MORE" open-minded, given that the earlier bar was probably about zero. There's clearly a middle ground between "beyond meaningless," which is definitely wrong, and blindly accepting of the data, which is also wrong and what many people tend to do. If the event was beyond meaningless, I doubt we'd see a T4 that so closely reflects other GP/MTGO metagames. The two "best" known decks, Humans and UW Control, also nosed ahead with 2 copies each instead of 1. Everything else is a known top-tier player with recent major event success. That was unlikely to happen if the results were as meaningless as you claim.
Team Unified is obviously not the best indicator of the metagame by any means. But it's also way more indicative than "beyond meaningless" would suggest.
yeah that looks like a pretty good spread to me. though i think you are ultimately right about unified modern events. if we can accept these events when they look good then we also have to accept them when they look bad.
it helps that diversity is strong right now, particularly among the top decks sharing powerful cards/enablers. for instance bant spirits now competes with humans as a vial/hierarch deck. faithless looting has hollow one, mardu, and bridgevine. stirrings has kci, tron, and most recently hardened scales. opal has affinity and kci. blue cantrips are tied up between storm, UWx control, and (maybe) GDS.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Well I don't think its that bad because any team has to take a mix...so pick your favorite blue deck, creature vial deck, faithless looting creature deck and ancient stirrings deck. You got 4 Broad Deck Types and a couple decks in each one.
Jeskai Control, Mono Green Tron and 5 Color Humans Take It.
I didnt even know Peek was a card.
It's a neat card. Twin occasionally ran it as a 1 of in the day and infect tried to use it when Gitaxian Probe was banned. It was way worse than Probe when your deck is trying to win on t3 with delve spells though.
Well it doesn't amount much but at least it beats Standard-Modern-Legacy Team Constructed. Nothing more disappointing that wanting to see your favorite format only to watch the same two top tier decks of any Standard format or the umpteenth flavor of Delver.
But yeah let's hope viewership sinks so they stop this Team idea.
I liked the GP and the top 4 in particular. Watching Mr Lopez pilot the Jeskai deck was awesome. I recommend watching his matches in the final.
(I also enjoyed reading the hyperbolic post-GP reactions. "These events are beyond meaningless. In addition to the pointless nature of team result stats, it's a format that forces artificial diversity through card limitations." lol. If at least you had said artificial *non-diversity*, but alas! no.)
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Discuss away!
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
1. Team results not mattering from a metagame perspective
2. Unified environments favoring perceived best decks to create visibly warped metagames
3. People complaining about Team results as if they were regular solo-GP results
4. Excessive mirror matches
5. Twitch chat (at least this one can be resolved by hiding the chat window)
6. Post-GP conversation getting heavily influenced by an event that shouldn't matter
7. All these qualities combined tend to make the showcased format, especially Modern, look bad
I'm sure there are other reasons to dislike the event too. Overall, I remember how ban-crazy and irrational both this forum and Reddit became after the Team PT Day 1 metagame got posted. I expect a similar level of hysteria during and after this event, but somewhat diminished because a GP draws fewer views than a PT.
Those are pretty clear top decks when you cannot share cards between them.
Yeah I dont think I'll be watching this. Another game of UW vs Humans...
Spirits
how do you figure #2? i agree that team events can present a warped view of the format, but im not seeing how the format structure in particular favors the perceived best decks.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
right...but that happens at regular events too. more people are going to play UW over UWR because its perceived to be stronger. what about team unified makes it more likely that these decks win more (ie favors)?
i could see some theory about skilled teams being more favored in a match than a skilled individual being plausible. these teams may be more discerning in the deck choices, and then that reflects in the standings.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Spirits
Because it takes potential cards away from the other decks.
What ktk is saying is that people might take this skewed number at face value saying "look Tron has 20% representation, it is o oppressing, ban Stirring or Tron lands". Now, Tron is an example, I am not saying this exact thing will happen, but that's how team events produce weird datasets.
And a point to illustrate this is that Day 2 so far (Round 10), almost all teams had KCI, a deck that also features mostly unique cards.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Well said, I wouldn't add much beyond that. I'll only say that this compounds over Team events due to the match-win mechanism. If I slot a Gx Tron into my team but then Gx Tron goes 4-8 while the rest of our team carries at 9-3 or better, Gx Tron still might show up as a T4 or T8 list even though it had a terrible record. With individual GP, we only need to account for Byes to determine a deck's true performance at an event. With Team GP, we never know how individual decks performed without some intensive Twitter and Twitch diving. But no one does that.
At best, this means we all acknowledge Team GP results are meaningless for the broader metagame and only useful as a general indicator of what is probably good. At worst, Modern community members take those results at face value and run rampant with the conclusions.
the only argument im seeing that supports team unified favoring the perceived best decks is that more people may show up with them; which as far as i know is impossible to determine without day 1 numbers. maybe its true, i dunno. we already know that card availability and preferred playstyles play a role in deck choices in regular GPs, yet for some reason its not a factor at team events and people can choose decks more freely?
thats why i offered the hypothesis earlier that team events attract more players that can switch decks easier, and that these teams do better on average than the individual because team matches may have lower variance (ie skill plays a larger role in winning). so the number of teams playing tiered decks or whatever is inflated.
dont get me wrong, im not disagreeing that team events dont show an accurate picture of the format. im just saying that #2 in kt's list is conjecture at best.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)EDIT:
Bant Spirits
Hardened Scales Affinity
BR Hollow One
vs
Humans
Valakut
UW Terminus
Not sure whats on the other side, the meta data for this event is pathetically poorly reported...
Spirits
I take it back, the T4 is actually quite representative of Modern's top-tier and could easily have been a T12 of an individual GP:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpdet18/grand-prix-detroit-2018-top-4-decklists-2018-09-09
1 Bant Spirits
1 Hardened Scales
1 Hollow One
2 UW Control
1 Mardu Pyromancer
1 Infect
2 Humans
1 Titanshift
1 Mono G Tron
1 Jeskai Control
T4 looks spectacular (and, more importantly, representative of our general understanding of Modern's top-tier). I might be more open-minded to Unified Modern data in the future.
No.
These events are beyond meaningless. In addition to the pointless nature of team result stats, it's a format that forces artificial diversity through card limitations. It's something that is not representative of how anyone plays "Modern" and is almost entirely irrelevant to the "Modern" everyone actually plays.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I was pretty deliberate in my word choices about being "MORE" open-minded, given that the earlier bar was probably about zero. There's clearly a middle ground between "beyond meaningless," which is definitely wrong, and blindly accepting of the data, which is also wrong and what many people tend to do. If the event was beyond meaningless, I doubt we'd see a T4 that so closely reflects other GP/MTGO metagames. The two "best" known decks, Humans and UW Control, also nosed ahead with 2 copies each instead of 1. Everything else is a known top-tier player with recent major event success. That was unlikely to happen if the results were as meaningless as you claim.
Team Unified is obviously not the best indicator of the metagame by any means. But it's also way more indicative than "beyond meaningless" would suggest.
it helps that diversity is strong right now, particularly among the top decks sharing powerful cards/enablers. for instance bant spirits now competes with humans as a vial/hierarch deck. faithless looting has hollow one, mardu, and bridgevine. stirrings has kci, tron, and most recently hardened scales. opal has affinity and kci. blue cantrips are tied up between storm, UWx control, and (maybe) GDS.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Spirits
I didnt even know Peek was a card.
It's a neat card. Twin occasionally ran it as a 1 of in the day and infect tried to use it when Gitaxian Probe was banned. It was way worse than Probe when your deck is trying to win on t3 with delve spells though.
But yeah let's hope viewership sinks so they stop this Team idea.
(I also enjoyed reading the hyperbolic post-GP reactions. "These events are beyond meaningless. In addition to the pointless nature of team result stats, it's a format that forces artificial diversity through card limitations." lol. If at least you had said artificial *non-diversity*, but alas! no.)