been playing pauper too and the blue cantrips are too good. dont see them getting unbanned in modern. they are much stronger than stirrings
I know I'm late to the party, but I don't see Preordain as more powerful as Ancient Stirrings. I mean, people always counter with, "Ancient Stirrings has a serious restriction." But yeah, it also gets lands and digs double as deep as Preordain. When more and more colorless spells are being printed (including lands and artifacts), there is going to come a point where Ancient Stirrings may need an axe. But I personally prefer unbans because I don't want to see that day. I see people calling for it. I see people calling for Mox Opal from KCI. I see people complaining about Humans. Which is it? Everyone has a somewhat valid point. Three good things - I get to take my least favorite out. That's not good for tournament Magic.
What IS good for tournament Magic? Unbanning cards to at least try to create a more diverse environment and continue to print Standard cards that will push Modern (hopefully not too far) decks or create new ones. That in my honest opinion is good for tournament Magic. I play Modern - the format that I have felt the most variance in. I know I've seen the stats that variance in Modern is much less than every single other format. I could care less. I play enough to see variance in the countless tournaments I attend, countless team practices, and countless tournaments I watch. Still, a format where a first time PPTQer can top 8 a 59 person tournament, which happened today after he demolished me today in Round 1 is good for tournament Magic. Seeing that anyone can win attracts newer players. No one wants to see Matt Nass win every GP from now on, lol.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Stirrings is pretty good too. I guess you could unban preordain without breaking the format in half but its still an annoying card. If youre in blue i feel every list has to run 4 preordain.
format could use more interactive decks.
Preordain main thing is it goes easily into any Blue Deck. However, Stirrings is way stronger then Preordain in the wide range of Tron, Eldrazi and Artifact Decks then Preordain would be in its natural decks like Storm, UWx Control, etc. Cause based on the historical power of various colorless cards especially having to play Colorless is not a limitation.
Hasn't Yu-gi-oh always been tribal. I mean I dropped out of paying attention after Jaden Finished his run as main character (this is probably showing my age, yes I watched the anime back in the day) but even back then I seem to remember every deck based around a tribal and Blue Eyes Decks, Dark Magicans have enjoyed plenty of tribal focused stuff since then...it presumably sells well so my impression is generally the fanbase likes Tribal and Tribal has always been the focus of the game. Is that wrong I am no expert on Yu-gi-oh though. But I think WOTC has made it clear they quite like Tribal.
Humans is good, but its hard to say its 'too good' at this point. Its simply the best at what it does.
That's been used here plenty of times in the past to justify a ban. It shouldn't have been a good enough reason then, and it's still not a good reason now.
why all talk about banning? It seems i am the only one not asking for Bans. So stop this guys and dont cry banmania after crying for stirrings ban. But we need some sort of Hate soon because of humans and maybe stirrings
Dredgevine is a 'new' deck that definitely needs to be on the watched. That being said we get decks that flash in the pan all the time. Jund Shadow was so powerful it needed a ban until it didn't. Cheerios with S'ram was too good a turn 2 until it wasn't. Humans was too dominating until it wasn't. Barring immediate, overwhelming evidence (like Eldrazi Winter) I'd say we need at least a month before we can call for a ban.
Dredgevine is a 'new' deck that definitely needs to be on the watched. That being said we get decks that flash in the pan all the time. Jund Shadow was so powerful it needed a ban until it didn't. Cheerios with S'ram was too good a turn 2 until it wasn't. Humans was too dominating until it wasn't. Barring immediate, overwhelming evidence (like Eldrazi Winter) I'd say we need at least a month before we can call for a ban.
I saw mtggoldfish had a deck tech about it some time ago but only took off recently. What event was it?
I'm trying to find videos of the time it really took off.
Bridgevine ban talk is premature. There is not enough evidence to suggest it is either top-tier or consistently winning pre-T4. Using past examples of T4 rule violators, we would need to see Bridgevine winning on T2-T3 in about 15%+ of games. That's kind of a guesstimate based on Amulet Bloom's win-rate (around 18%) and UR Storm's recent pre-T4 win rate when that deck was NOT banned (around 10%-12%). People cry for bans all the time in this thread for various reasons. Every single one of those cries was a miss in the last 1.5 years: cards from GDS, E-Tron, Gx Tron, Company decks, Grishoalbrand, Cheeri0s, plus cards like SSG, Moon, Bridge, etc. The vast majority of calls for bans are ultimately unjustified. If we want to separate out the real problems from the imagined ones, we need to wait and we need more results at the GP and MTGO premier event level. We don't have that yet.
I could be wrong in remembering... but did people also wanted something in Hollow One banned at some point, because the deck sometimes put out two 4/4's on turn one?
I don't care what anyone says, this deck needs to be banned. It's faster and more consistent than Dredge and doesn't care about RiP, and Dredge already made non-aggro magic almost impossible in its heyday. If you like playing KCI, Bridgevine, or Affinity, this meta will be great for you, but until then i'm playing commander.
G1 there is very little gy hate that will hit the vengevine in any way that matters. Outside of decks like Tron which run 3x relics in the main depending on the build, very few decks can interact with the GY in a meanginful way IE: Completely hose it.
My own experience with BR Vengevine was unloading 23 damage on T3, swinging past a blocker and not caring about any GY hate because my opponent was already ded on board. I had other matches where the I milled 30 cards and saw 0 bridges. I saw enough Vengevines and used the seer trick to avoid them being path'd. So the deck doesn't always need a bridge to function. Then I also lost to a tier 3 stompy list that put out a bunch of savanah lions and pretty much stoned walled me. When it goes off, woo..dude like...it's good enough for me drop the last 400 dollars I need to have the deck for SCG dallas.
Stop with the stirrings, humans, and OMG ban this and that! While powerful you do have to build your deck a way to make good use of it. UW control has been putting up very good numbers and it looked very good in Nassif's hands. With a yet a another return to Ravnica on it's way, I think more cards will be entering modern to shake things up. Ixalan block/Dominaria have added tools. Let's see what's on the horizon before we nuke more decks that are "fine". Have you seen the Vengevine Vs Kci/Tron match up? Sure stirrings away, take 20
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Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
I don't necessarily think that BR vengevine is 'too strong' or can't be dealt with or anything - but Faithless Looting and Ancient Stirrings will continue to create busted modern decks as long as they exist and should be banned for the same reason Pod is banned, because those two cards limit the types of cards that wizards can print that interact with the graveyard and are colorless.
"Each year, new powerful options are printed, most recently Siege Rhino. Over time, this creates a growing gap between the strength of the Pod deck and other creature decks."
There is a chance that wizards was more concerned with specifically pod decks against non-pod decks in that announcement, but from much of the analysis that has come in the last three years, it's clear that they don't want to continually break a card pool through the addition of new cards.
Bridgevine ban talk is premature. There is not enough evidence to suggest it is either top-tier or consistently winning pre-T4. Using past examples of T4 rule violators, we would need to see Bridgevine winning on T2-T3 in about 15%+ of games. That's kind of a guesstimate based on Amulet Bloom's win-rate (around 18%) and UR Storm's recent pre-T4 win rate when that deck was NOT banned (around 10%-12%). People cry for bans all the time in this thread for various reasons. Every single one of those cries was a miss in the last 1.5 years: cards from GDS, E-Tron, Gx Tron, Company decks, Grishoalbrand, Cheeri0s, plus cards like SSG, Moon, Bridge, etc. The vast majority of calls for bans are ultimately unjustified. If we want to separate out the real problems from the imagined ones, we need to wait and we need more results at the GP and MTGO premier event level. We don't have that yet.
Just quoting this because it deserves repeating. Knee-jerk reactions are our forum's forte.
I don't necessarily think that BR vengevine is 'too strong' or can't be dealt with or anything - but Faithless Looting and Ancient Stirrings will continue to create busted modern decks as long as they exist and should be banned for the same reason Pod is banned, because those two cards limit the types of cards that wizards can print that interact with the graveyard and are colorless.
That's an interesting angle to look at, but that argument essentially works against any cantrip. There's a difference between the consistency buff of cantrips and a reusable consistency engine like Pod.
I don't necessarily think that BR vengevine is 'too strong' or can't be dealt with or anything - but Faithless Looting and Ancient Stirrings will continue to create busted modern decks as long as they exist and should be banned for the same reason Pod is banned, because those two cards limit the types of cards that wizards can print that interact with the graveyard and are colorless.
That's an interesting angle to look at, but that argument essentially works against any cantrip. There's a difference between the consistency buff of cantrips and a reusable consistency engine like Pod.
My only point with these two is that by leaving them in the format, we will continually have near broken artifact and graveyard based decks as new cards are printed that interact in these way in every single set that is released. *If* bridgevine is broken (we don't know this yet), then they'll need to ban something. Rather than banning the continually problematic enablers, they'll have to look at the new pieces that come out, which *to me* seems much less fun in the long run. It just seems that we're always one not very busted card away from another new dominant graveyard or artifact based deck, and it's just getting old.
I think everyone is completely forgetting one thing; The modern metagame is very good at self-adjusting.
We seen the rise of Titanshift, UR Storm, Death's Shadow, Hollowed one to 10% of the metagame at one time during the peak, but the metagame self-corrected and people learned how to beat those decks and sideboards were adjusted to self-correct these changes in the metagame.
I myself don't like decks like Dredge as part of the metagame as I need to devote 3-4 sideboard slots to beat the deck and half of the metagame, such as Jund/ Jeskai etc, pretty much needs sideboard hate in order to combat the dredge deck. But in the end, there needs to be deck building concessions against the rest of the field.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Bridgevine has a serious issue against other creature decks. Affinity and Spirits both have evasion and can sac their own creatures to exile Bridge, as well as brutal sideboard cards. Infect has evasion and can be faster since Bridgevine has little interaction. Elves can overrun when left unchecked. Bogles is nearly unwinnable for Bridgevine
I like the New bridge deck. Each of you say: "you need only 8 removal Main and 3 Side vs humans..", now i can say:" play 8 gravehate Main and some in Side. Where is your Problem? Lol. It helps too vs topdecks like UW and kci, and hollow one, mardu,storm.. so its your Problem if you not interact. How many gravehate you all play Main? Go and change it bevore banmania
Bridgevine has a serious issue against other creature decks. Affinity and Spirits both have evasion and can sac their own creatures to exile Bridge, as well as brutal sideboard cards. Infect has evasion and can be faster since Bridgevine has little interaction. Elves can overrun when left unchecked. Bogles is nearly unwinnable for Bridgevine
Let the meta correct itself
I agree. Or at least give it a chance. If it doesn't correct itself, then and ONLY then possible talk may happen. It really seemed like a lot of teams felt like they "broke" the meta, but the top 4 lists had what, 2 Humans, 1 KCI, and 1 Hollow Boi?
I played Josh Cho's BridgeVine list at 2 PPTQs. I was 1 turn shy of making the top 8 in the first one, but went a full 2-4 in the next. I usually do much, much better with any of the decks listed in my signature. I know I didn't play it the best. But I should have at least been somewhat solid since I've been playing these type of strategies for decades (although not much recently). I was somewhat underwhelmed by the results, although I do know that variance took a big dump on me yesterday. In 2 of the rounds, I drew pretty nutty hands which dispatched UR Wizards easily but actually still lost a game vs. Storm. All of the rest of the rounds involved me mulliganing and trying to cobble together less than optimal starts. If someone can tell me how the midgame and late game are good with this deck, I'm all ears. (in theory, I believed drawing Stitcher's Apprentice late game with Gravecrawler in the yard is good, but it never came up).
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I don't care what anyone says, this deck needs to be banned. It's faster and more consistent than Dredge and doesn't care about RiP, and Dredge already made non-aggro magic almost impossible in its heyday. If you like playing KCI, Bridgevine, or Affinity, this meta will be great for you, but until then i'm playing commander.
It's way too soon to be calling for bans. Any time something new appears, it's at a significant advantage because opponents aren't very familiar with it.
Give it 6 months and if it remains at a ridiculous meta share after people are familiar with it, and the meta shifts to trying to beat it, then I think the ban conversation might be worth having. Bridgevine is nowhere near that point yet.
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I know I'm late to the party, but I don't see Preordain as more powerful as Ancient Stirrings. I mean, people always counter with, "Ancient Stirrings has a serious restriction." But yeah, it also gets lands and digs double as deep as Preordain. When more and more colorless spells are being printed (including lands and artifacts), there is going to come a point where Ancient Stirrings may need an axe. But I personally prefer unbans because I don't want to see that day. I see people calling for it. I see people calling for Mox Opal from KCI. I see people complaining about Humans. Which is it? Everyone has a somewhat valid point. Three good things - I get to take my least favorite out. That's not good for tournament Magic.
What IS good for tournament Magic? Unbanning cards to at least try to create a more diverse environment and continue to print Standard cards that will push Modern (hopefully not too far) decks or create new ones. That in my honest opinion is good for tournament Magic. I play Modern - the format that I have felt the most variance in. I know I've seen the stats that variance in Modern is much less than every single other format. I could care less. I play enough to see variance in the countless tournaments I attend, countless team practices, and countless tournaments I watch. Still, a format where a first time PPTQer can top 8 a 59 person tournament, which happened today after he demolished me today in Round 1 is good for tournament Magic. Seeing that anyone can win attracts newer players. No one wants to see Matt Nass win every GP from now on, lol.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)format could use more interactive decks.
Hasn't Yu-gi-oh always been tribal. I mean I dropped out of paying attention after Jaden Finished his run as main character (this is probably showing my age, yes I watched the anime back in the day) but even back then I seem to remember every deck based around a tribal and Blue Eyes Decks, Dark Magicans have enjoyed plenty of tribal focused stuff since then...it presumably sells well so my impression is generally the fanbase likes Tribal and Tribal has always been the focus of the game. Is that wrong I am no expert on Yu-gi-oh though. But I think WOTC has made it clear they quite like Tribal.
I saw mtggoldfish had a deck tech about it some time ago but only took off recently. What event was it?
I'm trying to find videos of the time it really took off.
BridgeVine could just be the same thing..
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| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Yeah, one loses to GY hate.
My own experience with BR Vengevine was unloading 23 damage on T3, swinging past a blocker and not caring about any GY hate because my opponent was already ded on board. I had other matches where the I milled 30 cards and saw 0 bridges. I saw enough Vengevines and used the seer trick to avoid them being path'd. So the deck doesn't always need a bridge to function. Then I also lost to a tier 3 stompy list that put out a bunch of savanah lions and pretty much stoned walled me. When it goes off, woo..dude like...it's good enough for me drop the last 400 dollars I need to have the deck for SCG dallas.
Stop with the stirrings, humans, and OMG ban this and that! While powerful you do have to build your deck a way to make good use of it. UW control has been putting up very good numbers and it looked very good in Nassif's hands. With a yet a another return to Ravnica on it's way, I think more cards will be entering modern to shake things up. Ixalan block/Dominaria have added tools. Let's see what's on the horizon before we nuke more decks that are "fine". Have you seen the Vengevine Vs Kci/Tron match up? Sure stirrings away, take 20
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
Spirits
"Each year, new powerful options are printed, most recently Siege Rhino. Over time, this creates a growing gap between the strength of the Pod deck and other creature decks."
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/banned-and-restricted-announcement-2015-01-19
There is a chance that wizards was more concerned with specifically pod decks against non-pod decks in that announcement, but from much of the analysis that has come in the last three years, it's clear that they don't want to continually break a card pool through the addition of new cards.
Just quoting this because it deserves repeating. Knee-jerk reactions are our forum's forte.
That's an interesting angle to look at, but that argument essentially works against any cantrip. There's a difference between the consistency buff of cantrips and a reusable consistency engine like Pod.
My only point with these two is that by leaving them in the format, we will continually have near broken artifact and graveyard based decks as new cards are printed that interact in these way in every single set that is released. *If* bridgevine is broken (we don't know this yet), then they'll need to ban something. Rather than banning the continually problematic enablers, they'll have to look at the new pieces that come out, which *to me* seems much less fun in the long run. It just seems that we're always one not very busted card away from another new dominant graveyard or artifact based deck, and it's just getting old.
We seen the rise of Titanshift, UR Storm, Death's Shadow, Hollowed one to 10% of the metagame at one time during the peak, but the metagame self-corrected and people learned how to beat those decks and sideboards were adjusted to self-correct these changes in the metagame.
I myself don't like decks like Dredge as part of the metagame as I need to devote 3-4 sideboard slots to beat the deck and half of the metagame, such as Jund/ Jeskai etc, pretty much needs sideboard hate in order to combat the dredge deck. But in the end, there needs to be deck building concessions against the rest of the field.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Correct me if I'm wrong but the last ban hit was on dredge, as it put too much pressure on sideboard.
Spirits
Let the meta correct itself
I agree. Or at least give it a chance. If it doesn't correct itself, then and ONLY then possible talk may happen. It really seemed like a lot of teams felt like they "broke" the meta, but the top 4 lists had what, 2 Humans, 1 KCI, and 1 Hollow Boi?
I played Josh Cho's BridgeVine list at 2 PPTQs. I was 1 turn shy of making the top 8 in the first one, but went a full 2-4 in the next. I usually do much, much better with any of the decks listed in my signature. I know I didn't play it the best. But I should have at least been somewhat solid since I've been playing these type of strategies for decades (although not much recently). I was somewhat underwhelmed by the results, although I do know that variance took a big dump on me yesterday. In 2 of the rounds, I drew pretty nutty hands which dispatched UR Wizards easily but actually still lost a game vs. Storm. All of the rest of the rounds involved me mulliganing and trying to cobble together less than optimal starts. If someone can tell me how the midgame and late game are good with this deck, I'm all ears. (in theory, I believed drawing Stitcher's Apprentice late game with Gravecrawler in the yard is good, but it never came up).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)It's way too soon to be calling for bans. Any time something new appears, it's at a significant advantage because opponents aren't very familiar with it.
Give it 6 months and if it remains at a ridiculous meta share after people are familiar with it, and the meta shifts to trying to beat it, then I think the ban conversation might be worth having. Bridgevine is nowhere near that point yet.