That may be nice and all for the state of Standard/Limited/Story...but to suggest that that is the primary reason they released Jace, heck even a top 3 reason, for Modern, when they were not all in on a Monetize strategy for Modern, and still are not...
Feel's as tin foil hat as the 'tehey only unbanned Jace to sell the set'. Doesn't convince me.
Not just that sales are down and gee we get Dominaria and Three Sets of Ravnica in a row? Not to mention suddenly Bolas Arc is ending at lightning speed. Seems like we went to the two greatest Planes and wrapped the Bolas Arc so WOTC can plot a new direction for Magic.
If something doesn't work, you change it. Mark Rosewater often coined this as the pendulum swinging if I recall. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that they really hit it out of the park with the next few sets and that their strategy works, whatever it is. What we know is that they got a new testing process and were willing to at least try to deal with card quality issues in the last few sets. We're also seeing a lot of "designed for modern" cards popping up. Alpine Moon and Scapeshift are among them.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
That may be nice and all for the state of Standard/Limited/Story...but to suggest that that is the primary reason they released Jace, heck even a top 3 reason, for Modern, when they were not all in on a Monetize strategy for Modern, and still are not...
Feel's as tin foil hat as the 'tehey only unbanned Jace to sell the set'. Doesn't convince me.
Jace was the only reason to buy that Masters Set.
I mean come on either WOTC is incompetent or they do profit off the secondary market. Any of us could have put together a more viable modern set for at minimum most of the 2000s using their own youtube page and website only.
As for sales, its going to get worse for WOTC I assume due to a certain Trade War that will be brewing. Now Ravnica can probably lessen the damage.
That may be nice and all for the state of Standard/Limited/Story...but to suggest that that is the primary reason they released Jace, heck even a top 3 reason, for Modern, when they were not all in on a Monetize strategy for Modern, and still are not...
Feel's as tin foil hat as the 'tehey only unbanned Jace to sell the set'. Doesn't convince me.
Explain the recent poll asking about interest in a modern only booster pack product when the company has no vested interest in modern being part of its financial strategy. The company has used modern to help give added value to cards since they officially supported it in 2011 and there is zero tinfoil hat theory in this. It's much more tinfoil hat to pretend the decisions are annexed from any sort of financial motivator. Also, this is not a binary argument: the decision to use modern as a way to give added value is not an argument against modern being supported because it proved popular, or that ban decisions are made with the health of the format in mind.
Also, like it or not, moderns fate is firmly tied to the singles market, and by extension, limited, draft, and standard players. They maybe rescinding this approach, though. Asking about modern only booster pack products in the survey is very interesting.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
No, I agree NOW it makes sense. That poll is a perfect thing to point to say 'they intend to tap into Modern properly'. The Jace unban was not that red flag to me. Instead it was 'we keep trying, and failing to fix Blue, its time to "In Case of Emergency, Break Glass"' and so they did.
The fact that still wasnt enough, and it took Search + Teferi + Field of Ruin...yeah.
By any measurable that WE have access to, Jace was unbanned for the game, to play in Modern. Thats all I'm saying. We can look at other factors and make educated guesses, but Blue did need the boost, and Wizards had been trying to boost Blue for nearly what, 2 years?
Thats all.
I agree though, they should now be looking at maximizing Modern's impact on their bottom line. Especially in light of the article today, there is a LOT of value tied up in Modern cards right now.
EDIT: In the MTGGoldfish article, I just want to draw attention to this. People still pretend that Modern is not the Constructed format of choice, which I find laughable. One of the reasons the format has increased in value (roughly 26% via the article) is its the most popular format.
With concerns to the League numbers, Modern Friendlies are showing to have 146% of the players of Standard Friendlies, with Modern Competitive having 121% the amount of players. Yeah, there is no contest for Modern being the most popular constructed format. The fact that it took Wizards this long to clue in that, "Oh we can make money off this crowd" is laughable.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
That's the value of deck diversity. Even when modern is "stagnant" for a period of time there are enough options that can spike an event that no two events feel the same. I played a four round modern FNM last week and a five round PPTQ. Number of matchups repeated? One, the burn mirror. So out of nine rounds (ten with a top 8 cut in the pptq) I played new different decks every time but once. That's as opposed to standard. Two leagues, ten matches, you are probably playing against three decks.
Having now played against KCI live, I want that thing nerfed into the ground. Yes, super subjective, but that's what I want. We now have so many decks abusing the graveyard that it feels like you are at a disadvantage by not running four pieces of hate at a minimum. I'm actually pretty okay with Hollow One and Vengevine because there are still good ways to fight them. You can use removal and sometimes they just durdle. I don't think I've ever wanted a deck annihilated in three years plus of modern like this.
My only concern is that Stirrings ban might not neuter KCI enough. If KCI players simply shrug the ban off and switch to playing Glint-Nest Crane instead, what exactly have we accomplished?
I have no idea at this point if they will go for the throat and take out KCI itself as Emma Handy suggests(as we saw with Splinter Twin, Birthing Pod, Eggs), or just chip away at its main consistency enabler (Stirrings) and hope that is enough to knock it down a tier.
Look at dickman's list. He maindecked 4 leyline of the void.
Adding a little bit of context here. In BridgeVine the main reason to mainboard Leyline of the Void is so that in creature match-ups like Humans, you can just swing your creatures sideways without the fear of your opponent killing one of their creatures and exiling any Bridge from Below that are in your graveyard.
Does it help against other decks that make use of the graveyard? Of course, but that's honestly just gravy.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
That's the value of deck diversity. Even when modern is "stagnant" for a period of time there are enough options that can spike an event that no two events feel the same. I played a four round modern FNM last week and a five round PPTQ. Number of matchups repeated? One, the burn mirror. So out of nine rounds (ten with a top 8 cut in the pptq) I played new different decks every time but once. That's as opposed to standard. Two leagues, ten matches, you are probably playing against three decks.
Having now played against KCI live, I want that thing nerfed into the ground. Yes, super subjective, but that's what I want. We now have so many decks abusing the graveyard that it feels like you are at a disadvantage by not running four pieces of hate at a minimum. I'm actually pretty okay with Hollow One and Vengevine because there are still good ways to fight them. You can use removal and sometimes they just durdle. I don't think I've ever wanted a deck annihilated in three years plus of modern like this.
I think thats a part of it for sure. A major part to me, and something I think Standard with its rotation will ALWAYS struggle with, is player retention as decks are 'lost'. Lets pretend say, Twin, was Standard Legal. I play it, love it, and it becomes my favorite deck. Then it rotates. I can tell you right now, as I 'lost' that deck in a very real way, I would simply quit Standard. On the spot.
In Modern, if you love your deck, outside of some edge cases, that deck stays, 'forever'. Thats a massive draw. That guy I mentioned a week or so ago, who plays Sphinx Rev + Elixir as UW Control in the 'just for fun' Best of 1 Games on MTGO? He's still there. Playing that deck from RTR Standard. He hasnt upgraded it, doesnt play 'for real' in leagues, he just plays that.
There are a lot of people like that.
As to KCI, its a resilient deck. Its good. It's also probably as miserable as Lantern. Just how it goes.
GY hate, is nearly required if you play online right now.
Ive always loathed the idea of planned obsolescence, and that’s the whole basis of standard. I’m not terribly attached to any standard deck because before even building it I’m thinking about it rotating and getting upset. Why even bother.
It’s hard to make money off someone playing a RTR deck forever, of course and that needs to be considered. But if you take his deck away, does he happily buy a new one every few months? Or does he quit? Wouldn’t it be better to keep him in the game, maybe paying entry fees at an LGS, maybe getting exposed to new decks and new products that he might eventually want to try out? Worst case, maybe he helps LGS events fire?
Ive always loathed the idea of planned obsolescence, and that’s the whole basis of standard. I’m not terribly attached to any standard deck because before even building it I’m thinking about it rotating and getting upset. Why even bother.
It’s hard to make money off someone playing a RTR deck forever, of course and that needs to be considered. But if you take his deck away, does he happily buy a new one every few months? Or does he quit? Wouldn’t it be better to keep him in the game, maybe paying entry fees at an LGS, maybe getting exposed to new decks and new products that he might eventually want to try out? Worst case, maybe he helps LGS events fire?
The argument for Standard (imho) is that it is an easier way to incentivize new players to join the game. Want to learn to play Magic? Cool, we'll be playing decks with these last few sets where you can easily get your hands on the cards no problem! Compare that to Modern. It took me 2 weeks to find a playset of Goblin Lores and that was before Hollow One took off as a deck. Yes the planned obsolescence can be a bit frustrating, but it has a purpose and a good reason for existing within a 25 year old game.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Ive always loathed the idea of planned obsolescence, and that’s the whole basis of standard. I’m not terribly attached to any standard deck because before even building it I’m thinking about it rotating and getting upset. Why even bother.
It’s hard to make money off someone playing a RTR deck forever, of course and that needs to be considered. But if you take his deck away, does he happily buy a new one every few months? Or does he quit? Wouldn’t it be better to keep him in the game, maybe paying entry fees at an LGS, maybe getting exposed to new decks and new products that he might eventually want to try out? Worst case, maybe he helps LGS events fire?
The argument for Standard (imho) is that it is an easier way to incentivize new players to join the game. Want to learn to play Magic? Cool, we'll be playing decks with these last few sets where you can easily get your hands on the cards no problem! Compare that to Modern. It took me 2 weeks to find a playset of Goblin Lores and that was before Hollow One took off as a deck. Yes the planned obsolescence can be a bit frustrating, but it has a purpose and a good reason for existing within a 25 year old game.
All of this, and from a business perspective (and WOTC *is* a business, despite what some think) has good reason to want people to be buying and playing with the newest cards. If they don't have constant streams of revenue, they don't have a business, then none of us have a game to play. They're tasked with striking a balance with eternal formats and standard that is precarious, at best.
Back in the day, Extended was the way people would get extra mileage of Standard favorites. It was mostly a "season" format but still awesome.
They could revive the format so existing Standard players don't get burned out of having their cards rendered useless. Modern-Extended-Standard should be the sanctioned competitive formats while dumping Legacy once and for all. As a still rotating format, Extended doesn't compete with Modern so it would be a far better idea than the damned Frontier proposal from MTGoldfish.
Back in the day, Extended was the way people would get extra mileage of Standard favorites. It was mostly a "season" format but still awesome.
They could revive the format so existing Standard players don't get burned out of having their cards rendered useless. Modern-Extended-Standard should be the sanctioned competitive formats while dumping Legacy once and for all. As a still rotating format, Extended doesn't compete with Modern so it would be a far better idea than the damned Frontier proposal from MTGoldfish.
I dont believe it was Goldfishes idea. I think it was driven by a major vendor in Japan...but whatever.
Extended would be fine I suppose, but I have to assume that those who are into the Standard churn, like it. Extended may cast a wider net and keep people in for a bit longer if they are the types to drop out of Standard, but I would question how large the 'non-modern, current standard but would only stick for Extended' percentage would be.
Back in the day, Extended was the way people would get extra mileage of Standard favorites. It was mostly a "season" format but still awesome.
They could revive the format so existing Standard players don't get burned out of having their cards rendered useless. Modern-Extended-Standard should be the sanctioned competitive formats while dumping Legacy once and for all. As a still rotating format, Extended doesn't compete with Modern so it would be a far better idea than the damned Frontier proposal from MTGoldfish.
I think it is fair to say this highlights the EV problem of MtG. The sentiments by the grinders is that this is some sort of side hustle instead of a hobby. We all know that even top level pros don't make that much money, so nobody should really go into this thinking they are going to end up in the black at the end of X years. This is a money sink, period, and the best 99% of us can hope to do is slightly mitigate the loss by accumulating enough inventory from prize support. That is a partial subsidy at best, not a profit.
Back in the day, Extended was the way people would get extra mileage of Standard favorites. It was mostly a "season" format but still awesome.
They could revive the format so existing Standard players don't get burned out of having their cards rendered useless. Modern-Extended-Standard should be the sanctioned competitive formats while dumping Legacy once and for all. As a still rotating format, Extended doesn't compete with Modern so it would be a far better idea than the damned Frontier proposal from MTGoldfish.
Source of frontier was Hareyuya in Japan and it was meant to fix accessibility issues people were having with modern over there. The problem is that since it was a young format, it got hit by all the same issues plaguing standard. A few pushed cards destroyed the ability to brew anything. Modern survived the two years because the pushed cards in standard were mostly out classed by older options.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Back in the day, Extended was the way people would get extra mileage of Standard favorites. It was mostly a "season" format but still awesome.
They could revive the format so existing Standard players don't get burned out of having their cards rendered useless. Modern-Extended-Standard should be the sanctioned competitive formats while dumping Legacy once and for all. As a still rotating format, Extended doesn't compete with Modern so it would be a far better idea than the damned Frontier proposal from MTGoldfish.
I dont believe it was Goldfishes idea. I think it was driven by a major vendor in Japan...but whatever.
Extended would be fine I suppose, but I have to assume that those who are into the Standard churn, like it. Extended may cast a wider net and keep people in for a bit longer if they are the types to drop out of Standard, but I would question how large the 'non-modern, current standard but would only stick for Extended' percentage would be.
This is true. Frontier originated in Japan through Hareruya, and it works (or worked, haven't kept track) there because of the unique market circumstances of the country - modern stuff is/was extremely scarce, so the new format was conceived both to boost its sales of now-out-of-Standard cards and to give people a more viable/playable alternative to Modern, not to spite Modern but because the country's circumstances were such that going into it wasn't really an option for as much people as would be desirable.
MTG Goldfish caught wind of it and started to keep track of that and publicize it outside of Japan, but it was not their idea.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vorthos-y Johnny. All will be One
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
That may be nice and all for the state of Standard/Limited/Story...but to suggest that that is the primary reason they released Jace, heck even a top 3 reason, for Modern, when they were not all in on a Monetize strategy for Modern, and still are not...
Feel's as tin foil hat as the 'tehey only unbanned Jace to sell the set'. Doesn't convince me.
I don’t know why they unbanned Jace, but clearly Wizards cares about selling cards and takes modern into account. Look at all the modern masters sets, and the printing of:
I think it is fair to say this highlights the EV problem of MtG. The sentiments by the grinders is that this is some sort of side hustle instead of a hobby. We all know that even top level pros don't make that much money, so nobody should really go into this thinking they are going to end up in the black at the end of X years. This is a money sink, period, and the best 99% of us can hope to do is slightly mitigate the loss by accumulating enough inventory from prize support. That is a partial subsidy at best, not a profit.
This is my biggest problem with Wizards as a company. They give exactly 0 support to the people outside of their company that are helping to keep their brand alive. While I agree with the point that the casual playing crowd is much larger than those of us that are competitive, we are the ones singing the praises of Magic everywhere. WotC the past few years has been slowly killing off all support for professional play. I can see there being no appearance fee for any pro level in the next 5 years in this trend continues. In 10 years I can see the Platinum, Gold, and Silver pro levels all being squished into a singular Pro Players Club which only guarantees you entry into Pro Tours based on a pro point threshold. Wizards doesn't want to support those of us who try to play this competitively, who want to try to push this game as (for all intents and purposes) a sport.
There is a reason I still have the #PayThePros in my signature. Like here is a great example of how much Wizards doesn't give a *****.
The yearly season is almost over. World's will soon be upon us. Do any of you know what the Leaderboard for Player of the Year looks like right now? Because oh damn does it look amazing this year.
1st Place
Seth Manfield - 79 Points 2nd Place
Reid Duke - 78 Points 3rd Place
Luis Salvatto - 77 Points
Look at how close this race is!?! Any one of these players could hold the lead, or take the lead by doing well at the next GP. It's such an exciting narrative that can be pushed to garner excitement from the competitive crowd. But NOPE Wizards don't give a f&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&ck.
Hell even if you good the player of the year race the standings aren't at the top of the page. If you go to the Premier Play Leaderboard you have to scroll down an entire page's worth of text to even see the leaderboard. WotC doesn't care about what we want from the game. WotC doesn't care that we play the game. ***** WotC would love it if we all just bought 10 booster boxes of every new set and then lit them on fire.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I think it is fair to say this highlights the EV problem of MtG. The sentiments by the grinders is that this is some sort of side hustle instead of a hobby. We all know that even top level pros don't make that much money, so nobody should really go into this thinking they are going to end up in the black at the end of X years. This is a money sink, period, and the best 99% of us can hope to do is slightly mitigate the loss by accumulating enough inventory from prize support. That is a partial subsidy at best, not a profit.
This is my biggest problem with Wizards as a company. They give exactly 0 support to the people outside of their company that are helping to keep their brand alive. While I agree with the point that the casual playing crowd is much larger than those of us that are competitive, we are the ones singing the praises of Magic everywhere. WotC the past few years has been slowly killing off all support for professional play. I can see there being no appearance fee for any pro level in the next 5 years in this trend continues. In 10 years I can see the Platinum, Gold, and Silver pro levels all being squished into a singular Pro Players Club which only guarantees you entry into Pro Tours based on a pro point threshold. Wizards doesn't want to support those of us who try to play this competitively, who want to try to push this game as (for all intents and purposes) a sport.
There is a reason I still have the #PayThePros in my signature. Like here is a great example of how much Wizards doesn't give a *****.
The yearly season is almost over. World's will soon be upon us. Do any of you know what the Leaderboard for Player of the Year looks like right now? Because oh damn does it look amazing this year.
1st Place
Seth Manfield - 79 Points 2nd Place
Reid Duke - 78 Points 3rd Place
Luis Salvatto - 77 Points
Look at how close this race is!?! Any one of these players could hold the lead, or take the lead by doing well at the next GP. It's such an exciting narrative that can be pushed to garner excitement from the competitive crowd. But NOPE Wizards don't give a f&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&ck.
Hell even if you good the player of the year race the standings aren't at the top of the page. If you go to the Premier Play Leaderboard you have to scroll down an entire page's worth of text to even see the leaderboard. WotC doesn't care about what we want from the game. WotC doesn't care that we play the game. ***** WotC would love it if we all just bought 10 booster boxes of every new set and then lit them on fire.
I think this is pretty disingenuous, especially when they literally just had the largest pro tour payout they've ever had. No, it's not what League players or Hearthstone players get, but those games both have tens of millions of ad revenue and sponsorships pouring into their games as well.
Do they support the pro scene like pros or those dedicated to watching wish they would? Not really. That doesn't mean that they hate them, or don't care. They know tournaments are the lifeblood of the game, and they're financially incentivized to continue to care about that section of the game and community.
I think this is pretty disingenuous, especially when they literally just had the largest pro tour payout they've ever had. No, it's not what League players or Hearthstone players get, but those games both have tens of millions of ad revenue and sponsorships pouring into their games as well.
Do they support the pro scene like pros or those dedicated to watching wish they would? Not really. That doesn't mean that they hate them, or don't care. They know tournaments are the lifeblood of the game, and they're financially incentivized to continue to care about that section of the game and community.
The largest Pro Tour Payout ever? Now that is disingenuous. Sure, the amount of money given away does seem much larger than usual. $850,000! Wow! That's a hell of a lot of money for a single Pro Tour! I mean, normal Pro Tours only have a payout of $250,000....and aren't team tournaments.
If you account for the fact that Pro Tour 25th Anniversary was a TEAM Pro Tour and the top prize needed to be paid out to THREE players, the prize pool for PT 25th Anniversary was only increased by $100,000. Honestly, that is pennies. In fact, there are very few people who actually see any of that prize increase. Let's go over every single prize metric to see who actually sees any increase in their prize payout.
Pro Tour Prizes. Standard Pro Tour Payout is bolded, PT 25th Anniversary Payout is in brackets.
1st: $50,000 ($50,000/player)
2nd: $20,000 ($24,000/player)
3rd: $15,000 ($15,000/player)
4th: $12,500 ($15,000/player)
5th: $10,000 ($9,000/player)
6th: $9,000 ($9,000/player)
7th: $7,500 ($9,000/player)
8th: $6,000 ($9,000/player)
9th - 16th: $5,000 ($5,000/player)
17th - 24th: $3,000 ($4,000/player)
25th - 32nd: $2,000 ($3,000/player)
33rd - 48th: $1,500 ($2,000/player)
49th - 64th: $1,000 ($1,000/player)
So yes, some placings made a little bit more money. The most pronounced is 2nd place where each player made $4,000 more than they would have at a regular PT if they had gotten the same placing. However the $850,000 isn't all that big of a number when you account for the fact that it was a team tournament. Of course they had to have a large payout! Do you think people are going to be excited for a Pro Tour where 3 people have to split the regular PT Winnings among all their team mates? Christ that's idiotic.
So WotC really only juiced the PT prize pool by $100,000. Or $33,333.33_/player for the team. Now let us shift over to the SILVER SHOWCASE!!! Where WotC paid $12,500 to HEARTHSTONE PLAYERS just to get them to show up! Please, you can't sit there and pretend like WotC actually gives a ***** about competitive players. The entire Silver Showcase Prize Pool was $150,000!! $50,000 MORE than what they added to the PT!!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Skitzafreak, did you read my topic in the general forum about pro play? Supply and demand rules here. Pros shouldn't get paid to appear, because none of them draw enough eyeballs to justify it. There's a reason none of these guys are sponsored by red bull, verizon, pizza hut, budweiser, or nintendo.
Not enough people care about any particular individual pro or team. If Gabriel Nassif never played Magic again, there would be no change in viewer count. If the entire team cfb retired, there would be no change in viewer count. The fact that four guys can say "hey everybody we're trying another game over here!" and bring eyeballs is proof enough. You get what you deserve, and pros deserve very little. Side note, I found it great that the finals were a hearthstone pro pairing. It's always nice to remind the world that these few dozen MtG people aren't much better than any of us. They just catch breaks (the bye system at GPs is awful).
You want bigger payouts at events? So do I. Eliminating appearance fees for pro players, not paying for travel or lodging for e-celebs who don't draw, that turns into bigger payouts that are actually earned that weekend by winning. It means you or I have a shot at the cash. WOTC could, and should, sell promo tokens or lands to help fund bigger payouts, too. I'd buy half a dozen foil islands with classic artwork (or brand new, if it's good) if I knew the profit margin was being redirected to pro play.
I care about a deck, or decks, infinitely more than some random pro, or 'team'. Its like in sports, do people follow players more than they follow teams? No. Decks are 'teams', in MTG. You follow that 'team' because its also what you play.
I couldnt name 5 pro's, and I watch/read/discuss/play Modern every.single.day.
Skitzafreak, did you read my topic in the general forum about pro play? Supply and demand rules here. Pros shouldn't get paid to appear, because none of them draw enough eyeballs to justify it. There's a reason none of these guys are sponsored by red bull, verizon, pizza hut, budweiser, or nintendo.
This is a false equivalence fallacy. You cannot state as a fact that these players do not draw enough eyeballs when Wizards does nothing to promote them. And as for sponsorships, you do realize a lot of the Platinum level Pros are sponsored right? Sure it might not be Red Bull, or Verizon, but why the f%ck do we care about those sponsorships anyway? They don't matter to people who play Magic in the first place. Ultra Pro, Ultimate Guard, Dex Protection, you know companies that make products that Magic players use actively sponsor teams and players and it is where I am sure they get a bulk of their money from (if there are any random Gold or Plat Pros that are sponsored reading these, feel free to chime in to confirm or deny my claim here).
Then there is the fact that Wizards wants the PT to be a sole promotion for just Magic. They don't want to share the spotlight with Pizza Hut. They want people just thinking about Magic. That's why there's no sponsors, Wizards doesn't want to share the limelight.
Not enough people care about any particular individual pro or team. If Gabriel Nassif never played Magic again, there would be no change in viewer count. If the entire team cfb retired, there would be no change in viewer count. The fact that four guys can say "hey everybody we're trying another game over here!" and bring eyeballs is proof enough. You get what you deserve, and pros deserve very little. Side note, I found it great that the finals were a hearthstone pro pairing. It's always nice to remind the world that these few dozen MtG people aren't much better than any of us. They just catch breaks (the bye system at GPs is awful).
Again, this is all false equivalence. You can't state with certainty that player's wouldn't care about Pro players leaving. Because there are people that don't know pr players exist, because Wizards doesn't tell people about Pro players! If you go on League of Legends you see the pro players. In the dashboard you see the teams. Riot throws the players in your face because the company understands their importance. And by broadcasting them, we get to enjoy them being there. Pro players are only 'disposable' because Wizards wants them to be disposable. The rest of your comment just sounds like someone who is pissed off he isn't better at Magic, so I'm not even gonna touch that.
You want bigger payouts at events? So do I. Eliminating appearance fees for pro players, not paying for travel or lodging for e-celebs who don't draw, that turns into bigger payouts that are actually earned that weekend by winning. It means you or I have a shot at the cash. WOTC could, and should, sell promo tokens or lands to help fund bigger payouts, too. I'd buy half a dozen foil islands with classic artwork (or brand new, if it's good) if I knew the profit margin was being redirected to pro play.
Why are you advocating for not appear fees for tournaments? Do you just want to Magic competitive scene to just be people only going to a GP whne it's in their home town? What incentive is there for people to grind GPs and event every year to try and make Gold and Platinum if there isn't at least that (completely embarrassing) income at the end to tell them, "hey good job". What you are suggesting would literally kill the Magic Pro circuit. And maybe that's what you want, and I legitimately don't understand why.
Though I do agree with your point on Wizards could back-end funding for premier level events with premier level cards that can be purchased at only GPs or something. Instead of a booster pack of cards you can just buy a premier GP promo for X Dollars. That would be cool.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Feel's as tin foil hat as the 'tehey only unbanned Jace to sell the set'. Doesn't convince me.
Spirits
If something doesn't work, you change it. Mark Rosewater often coined this as the pendulum swinging if I recall. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that they really hit it out of the park with the next few sets and that their strategy works, whatever it is. What we know is that they got a new testing process and were willing to at least try to deal with card quality issues in the last few sets. We're also seeing a lot of "designed for modern" cards popping up. Alpine Moon and Scapeshift are among them.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Jace was the only reason to buy that Masters Set.
I mean come on either WOTC is incompetent or they do profit off the secondary market. Any of us could have put together a more viable modern set for at minimum most of the 2000s using their own youtube page and website only.
As for sales, its going to get worse for WOTC I assume due to a certain Trade War that will be brewing. Now Ravnica can probably lessen the damage.
Explain the recent poll asking about interest in a modern only booster pack product when the company has no vested interest in modern being part of its financial strategy. The company has used modern to help give added value to cards since they officially supported it in 2011 and there is zero tinfoil hat theory in this. It's much more tinfoil hat to pretend the decisions are annexed from any sort of financial motivator. Also, this is not a binary argument: the decision to use modern as a way to give added value is not an argument against modern being supported because it proved popular, or that ban decisions are made with the health of the format in mind.
Also, like it or not, moderns fate is firmly tied to the singles market, and by extension, limited, draft, and standard players. They maybe rescinding this approach, though. Asking about modern only booster pack products in the survey is very interesting.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The fact that still wasnt enough, and it took Search + Teferi + Field of Ruin...yeah.
By any measurable that WE have access to, Jace was unbanned for the game, to play in Modern. Thats all I'm saying. We can look at other factors and make educated guesses, but Blue did need the boost, and Wizards had been trying to boost Blue for nearly what, 2 years?
Thats all.
I agree though, they should now be looking at maximizing Modern's impact on their bottom line. Especially in light of the article today, there is a LOT of value tied up in Modern cards right now.
EDIT: In the MTGGoldfish article, I just want to draw attention to this. People still pretend that Modern is not the Constructed format of choice, which I find laughable. One of the reasons the format has increased in value (roughly 26% via the article) is its the most popular format.
Spirits
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Having now played against KCI live, I want that thing nerfed into the ground. Yes, super subjective, but that's what I want. We now have so many decks abusing the graveyard that it feels like you are at a disadvantage by not running four pieces of hate at a minimum. I'm actually pretty okay with Hollow One and Vengevine because there are still good ways to fight them. You can use removal and sometimes they just durdle. I don't think I've ever wanted a deck annihilated in three years plus of modern like this.
I have no idea at this point if they will go for the throat and take out KCI itself as Emma Handy suggests(as we saw with Splinter Twin, Birthing Pod, Eggs), or just chip away at its main consistency enabler (Stirrings) and hope that is enough to knock it down a tier.
In any case, we shall see in one weeks time.
Adding a little bit of context here. In BridgeVine the main reason to mainboard Leyline of the Void is so that in creature match-ups like Humans, you can just swing your creatures sideways without the fear of your opponent killing one of their creatures and exiling any Bridge from Below that are in your graveyard.
Does it help against other decks that make use of the graveyard? Of course, but that's honestly just gravy.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I think thats a part of it for sure. A major part to me, and something I think Standard with its rotation will ALWAYS struggle with, is player retention as decks are 'lost'. Lets pretend say, Twin, was Standard Legal. I play it, love it, and it becomes my favorite deck. Then it rotates. I can tell you right now, as I 'lost' that deck in a very real way, I would simply quit Standard. On the spot.
In Modern, if you love your deck, outside of some edge cases, that deck stays, 'forever'. Thats a massive draw. That guy I mentioned a week or so ago, who plays Sphinx Rev + Elixir as UW Control in the 'just for fun' Best of 1 Games on MTGO? He's still there. Playing that deck from RTR Standard. He hasnt upgraded it, doesnt play 'for real' in leagues, he just plays that.
There are a lot of people like that.
As to KCI, its a resilient deck. Its good. It's also probably as miserable as Lantern. Just how it goes.
GY hate, is nearly required if you play online right now.
Spirits
It’s hard to make money off someone playing a RTR deck forever, of course and that needs to be considered. But if you take his deck away, does he happily buy a new one every few months? Or does he quit? Wouldn’t it be better to keep him in the game, maybe paying entry fees at an LGS, maybe getting exposed to new decks and new products that he might eventually want to try out? Worst case, maybe he helps LGS events fire?
The argument for Standard (imho) is that it is an easier way to incentivize new players to join the game. Want to learn to play Magic? Cool, we'll be playing decks with these last few sets where you can easily get your hands on the cards no problem! Compare that to Modern. It took me 2 weeks to find a playset of Goblin Lores and that was before Hollow One took off as a deck. Yes the planned obsolescence can be a bit frustrating, but it has a purpose and a good reason for existing within a 25 year old game.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
All of this, and from a business perspective (and WOTC *is* a business, despite what some think) has good reason to want people to be buying and playing with the newest cards. If they don't have constant streams of revenue, they don't have a business, then none of us have a game to play. They're tasked with striking a balance with eternal formats and standard that is precarious, at best.
They could revive the format so existing Standard players don't get burned out of having their cards rendered useless. Modern-Extended-Standard should be the sanctioned competitive formats while dumping Legacy once and for all. As a still rotating format, Extended doesn't compete with Modern so it would be a far better idea than the damned Frontier proposal from MTGoldfish.
I dont believe it was Goldfishes idea. I think it was driven by a major vendor in Japan...but whatever.
Extended would be fine I suppose, but I have to assume that those who are into the Standard churn, like it. Extended may cast a wider net and keep people in for a bit longer if they are the types to drop out of Standard, but I would question how large the 'non-modern, current standard but would only stick for Extended' percentage would be.
Spirits
I think it is fair to say this highlights the EV problem of MtG. The sentiments by the grinders is that this is some sort of side hustle instead of a hobby. We all know that even top level pros don't make that much money, so nobody should really go into this thinking they are going to end up in the black at the end of X years. This is a money sink, period, and the best 99% of us can hope to do is slightly mitigate the loss by accumulating enough inventory from prize support. That is a partial subsidy at best, not a profit.
Source of frontier was Hareyuya in Japan and it was meant to fix accessibility issues people were having with modern over there. The problem is that since it was a young format, it got hit by all the same issues plaguing standard. A few pushed cards destroyed the ability to brew anything. Modern survived the two years because the pushed cards in standard were mostly out classed by older options.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
This is true. Frontier originated in Japan through Hareruya, and it works (or worked, haven't kept track) there because of the unique market circumstances of the country - modern stuff is/was extremely scarce, so the new format was conceived both to boost its sales of now-out-of-Standard cards and to give people a more viable/playable alternative to Modern, not to spite Modern but because the country's circumstances were such that going into it wasn't really an option for as much people as would be desirable.
MTG Goldfish caught wind of it and started to keep track of that and publicize it outside of Japan, but it was not their idea.
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
I don’t know why they unbanned Jace, but clearly Wizards cares about selling cards and takes modern into account. Look at all the modern masters sets, and the printing of:
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
This is my biggest problem with Wizards as a company. They give exactly 0 support to the people outside of their company that are helping to keep their brand alive. While I agree with the point that the casual playing crowd is much larger than those of us that are competitive, we are the ones singing the praises of Magic everywhere. WotC the past few years has been slowly killing off all support for professional play. I can see there being no appearance fee for any pro level in the next 5 years in this trend continues. In 10 years I can see the Platinum, Gold, and Silver pro levels all being squished into a singular Pro Players Club which only guarantees you entry into Pro Tours based on a pro point threshold. Wizards doesn't want to support those of us who try to play this competitively, who want to try to push this game as (for all intents and purposes) a sport.
There is a reason I still have the #PayThePros in my signature. Like here is a great example of how much Wizards doesn't give a *****.
The yearly season is almost over. World's will soon be upon us. Do any of you know what the Leaderboard for Player of the Year looks like right now? Because oh damn does it look amazing this year.
1st Place
Seth Manfield - 79 Points
2nd Place
Reid Duke - 78 Points
3rd Place
Luis Salvatto - 77 Points
Look at how close this race is!?! Any one of these players could hold the lead, or take the lead by doing well at the next GP. It's such an exciting narrative that can be pushed to garner excitement from the competitive crowd. But NOPE Wizards don't give a f&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&ck.
Hell even if you good the player of the year race the standings aren't at the top of the page. If you go to the Premier Play Leaderboard you have to scroll down an entire page's worth of text to even see the leaderboard. WotC doesn't care about what we want from the game. WotC doesn't care that we play the game. ***** WotC would love it if we all just bought 10 booster boxes of every new set and then lit them on fire.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I think this is pretty disingenuous, especially when they literally just had the largest pro tour payout they've ever had. No, it's not what League players or Hearthstone players get, but those games both have tens of millions of ad revenue and sponsorships pouring into their games as well.
Do they support the pro scene like pros or those dedicated to watching wish they would? Not really. That doesn't mean that they hate them, or don't care. They know tournaments are the lifeblood of the game, and they're financially incentivized to continue to care about that section of the game and community.
The largest Pro Tour Payout ever? Now that is disingenuous. Sure, the amount of money given away does seem much larger than usual. $850,000! Wow! That's a hell of a lot of money for a single Pro Tour! I mean, normal Pro Tours only have a payout of $250,000....and aren't team tournaments.
If you account for the fact that Pro Tour 25th Anniversary was a TEAM Pro Tour and the top prize needed to be paid out to THREE players, the prize pool for PT 25th Anniversary was only increased by $100,000. Honestly, that is pennies. In fact, there are very few people who actually see any of that prize increase. Let's go over every single prize metric to see who actually sees any increase in their prize payout.
Pro Tour Prizes. Standard Pro Tour Payout is bolded, PT 25th Anniversary Payout is in brackets.
1st: $50,000 ($50,000/player)
2nd: $20,000 ($24,000/player)
3rd: $15,000 ($15,000/player)
4th: $12,500 ($15,000/player)
5th: $10,000 ($9,000/player)
6th: $9,000 ($9,000/player)
7th: $7,500 ($9,000/player)
8th: $6,000 ($9,000/player)
9th - 16th: $5,000 ($5,000/player)
17th - 24th: $3,000 ($4,000/player)
25th - 32nd: $2,000 ($3,000/player)
33rd - 48th: $1,500 ($2,000/player)
49th - 64th: $1,000 ($1,000/player)
So yes, some placings made a little bit more money. The most pronounced is 2nd place where each player made $4,000 more than they would have at a regular PT if they had gotten the same placing. However the $850,000 isn't all that big of a number when you account for the fact that it was a team tournament. Of course they had to have a large payout! Do you think people are going to be excited for a Pro Tour where 3 people have to split the regular PT Winnings among all their team mates? Christ that's idiotic.
So WotC really only juiced the PT prize pool by $100,000. Or $33,333.33_/player for the team. Now let us shift over to the SILVER SHOWCASE!!! Where WotC paid $12,500 to HEARTHSTONE PLAYERS just to get them to show up! Please, you can't sit there and pretend like WotC actually gives a ***** about competitive players. The entire Silver Showcase Prize Pool was $150,000!! $50,000 MORE than what they added to the PT!!
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Not enough people care about any particular individual pro or team. If Gabriel Nassif never played Magic again, there would be no change in viewer count. If the entire team cfb retired, there would be no change in viewer count. The fact that four guys can say "hey everybody we're trying another game over here!" and bring eyeballs is proof enough. You get what you deserve, and pros deserve very little. Side note, I found it great that the finals were a hearthstone pro pairing. It's always nice to remind the world that these few dozen MtG people aren't much better than any of us. They just catch breaks (the bye system at GPs is awful).
You want bigger payouts at events? So do I. Eliminating appearance fees for pro players, not paying for travel or lodging for e-celebs who don't draw, that turns into bigger payouts that are actually earned that weekend by winning. It means you or I have a shot at the cash. WOTC could, and should, sell promo tokens or lands to help fund bigger payouts, too. I'd buy half a dozen foil islands with classic artwork (or brand new, if it's good) if I knew the profit margin was being redirected to pro play.
I couldnt name 5 pro's, and I watch/read/discuss/play Modern every.single.day.
Spirits
This is a false equivalence fallacy. You cannot state as a fact that these players do not draw enough eyeballs when Wizards does nothing to promote them. And as for sponsorships, you do realize a lot of the Platinum level Pros are sponsored right? Sure it might not be Red Bull, or Verizon, but why the f%ck do we care about those sponsorships anyway? They don't matter to people who play Magic in the first place. Ultra Pro, Ultimate Guard, Dex Protection, you know companies that make products that Magic players use actively sponsor teams and players and it is where I am sure they get a bulk of their money from (if there are any random Gold or Plat Pros that are sponsored reading these, feel free to chime in to confirm or deny my claim here).
Then there is the fact that Wizards wants the PT to be a sole promotion for just Magic. They don't want to share the spotlight with Pizza Hut. They want people just thinking about Magic. That's why there's no sponsors, Wizards doesn't want to share the limelight.
Again, this is all false equivalence. You can't state with certainty that player's wouldn't care about Pro players leaving. Because there are people that don't know pr players exist, because Wizards doesn't tell people about Pro players! If you go on League of Legends you see the pro players. In the dashboard you see the teams. Riot throws the players in your face because the company understands their importance. And by broadcasting them, we get to enjoy them being there. Pro players are only 'disposable' because Wizards wants them to be disposable. The rest of your comment just sounds like someone who is pissed off he isn't better at Magic, so I'm not even gonna touch that.
Why are you advocating for not appear fees for tournaments? Do you just want to Magic competitive scene to just be people only going to a GP whne it's in their home town? What incentive is there for people to grind GPs and event every year to try and make Gold and Platinum if there isn't at least that (completely embarrassing) income at the end to tell them, "hey good job". What you are suggesting would literally kill the Magic Pro circuit. And maybe that's what you want, and I legitimately don't understand why.
Though I do agree with your point on Wizards could back-end funding for premier level events with premier level cards that can be purchased at only GPs or something. Instead of a booster pack of cards you can just buy a premier GP promo for X Dollars. That would be cool.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros