Or...you depend on interaction with the stack, and a high IQ Rainbow land can invalidate your interaction, and snowball you to get the kill by Turn 3 or 4?
Seems legit as a 'police deck'.
Isn't that what twin did?
Either you misunderstood me, you've never played Twin, or this is a joke? I'm not sure. If you are serious, no, Twin was completely interactive, up to the point of the combo. It was 'Control/Combo'.
Yeah, dredge, or old Vengvine strats also did funny things. Vengvine is probably my favorite green card.
Either way the more I dwell on it, the less I want to play against these decks. So just play Storm, and play mostly by myself.
Good times.
I get that you're in the moros zone, and I feel you, but boy howdy if you do pickup Storm are you in for a suprise. Sure game 1 against a bunch of things you can goldfish on your own but that's about it. There's so much Storm hate kicking around that you have to and infact enjoy playing through hard counters to get anywhere with the deck.
Storm 9 months ago could mostly do what it wanted much like Shadow. Things are not the same now.
Also if you really like Vengevine, have you looked at H0ly's angry garden list? It might be too aggro for you but it's an amusing deck to play.
Yeah one of the reasons I dont like Storm, it always has a target on it, Wizards hates it, and so do most players.
I've played a lot of Vine lists, not sure I saw her's though. It's always fun for a few laughs, one of my most cherished win's is with that card actually against Tron, in an 8whack-Vine list.
Either way, yeah I'm mostly just bitter, I'm just going to take another extended break, as I did when ETron was everywhere. If the meta is no fun, no point in playing it.
That must be why it shows up in 20 out of 4352 decks listed on MTG Top 8 under any category (Major, Professional, Competitive, Regular) since Hour was released. That's 0.4% of Modern decks. Personally, I think the card is trash because it should have its counter ability as an ETB, not when you cycle. Cycling should have just been a bonus option for U or 1U. Instead, they played it super safe and made another fairly bad tempo card that isn't even seeing Standard play (8 of 2818 decks). If I'm running a 3 drop flying flash threat, I want it to be Clique or Queller, or something that does anything of value when it enters.
It solves a different problem. You're looking at it as a creature, it's primarily a Stifle that has an alternate mode of becoming a creature. As a Stifle, if you use it correctly you get a 2 for 1 thanks to the draw a card portion of the cycling. A 3 mana 2 for 1 is already playable in most circumstances, that it has an alternate mode of being able to hit the opponent or trade with a creature pushes it over the edge.
Yeah one of the reasons I dont like Storm, it always has a target on it, Wizards hates it, and so do most players.
I've played a lot of Vine lists, not sure I saw her's though. It's always fun for a few laughs, one of my most cherished win's is with that card actually against Tron, in an 8whack-Vine list.
Either way, yeah I'm mostly just bitter, I'm just going to take another extended break, as I did when ETron was everywhere. If the meta is no fun, no point in playing it.
If you're not feeling it, there's no point forcing it.
I think her list went something like:
4 Flamekin Harbinger
3 Bushwhacker
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Ballista
4 Hollow One
4 Noose Constrictor
4 Street Wraith
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Vengevine
4 Faithless Looting
4 Bridge from Below
17 Lands
The goal being to chuck things in the graveyard AND having them count as being cast at the same time with the X's so that you get your Vengevine back and make Zombie tokens via Bridge at the same time (I've seen another version with Endless One's to help that plan). I've only mucked about with it a few times online but it's pretty amusing. I'm not sure if I would enjoy it longer term though.
But as you're not usually on the aggro train, this might not be up your alley despite Vengevine.
That must be why it shows up in 20 out of 4352 decks listed on MTG Top 8 under any category (Major, Professional, Competitive, Regular) since Hour was released. That's 0.4% of Modern decks. Personally, I think the card is trash because it should have its counter ability as an ETB, not when you cycle. Cycling should have just been a bonus option for U or 1U. Instead, they played it super safe and made another fairly bad tempo card that isn't even seeing Standard play (8 of 2818 decks). If I'm running a 3 drop flying flash threat, I want it to be Clique or Queller, or something that does anything of value when it enters.
It solves a different problem. You're looking at it as a creature, it's primarily a Stifle that has an alternate mode of becoming a creature. As a Stifle, if you use it correctly you get a 2 for 1 thanks to the draw a card portion of the cycling. A 3 mana 2 for 1 is already playable in most circumstances, that it has an alternate mode of being able to hit the opponent or trade with a creature pushes it over the edge.
We have a 3 mana Stifle already in Disallow, and that still wouldn't see play because 3 mana needs to do a lot. Stifle + draw isn't good enough, a vanilla flier isn't good enough, it has to do something like that and then some, or it needs to cost 2. There are too many better options to play at 3 mana (like Clique and Queller) to serve as a tempo spell with flying legs, which is why those are seeing play and Nimble Obstructionist is not. NO is either an overcosted narrow effect or an overcosted vanilla flier. The only way this card would see play is if its stifle ability was on enter the battlefield, because stifle does nothing, but stifle + pressure is exactly what blue needs.
We have a 3 mana Stifle already in Disallow, and that still wouldn't see play because 3 mana needs to do a lot. Stifle + draw isn't good enough, a vanilla flier isn't good enough, it has to do something like that and then some, or it needs to cost 2. There are too many better options to play at 3 mana (like Clique and Queller) to serve as a tempo spell with flying legs, which is why those are seeing play and Nimble Obstructionist is not. NO is either an overcosted narrow effect or an overcosted vanilla flier. The only way this card would see play is if its stifle ability was on enter the battlefield, because stifle does nothing, but stifle + pressure is exactly what blue needs.
Disallow is not remotely the same, because Disallow doesn't cantrip, Obstructionist does if used as a stifle. As for your other point, I play them all alongside each other. It's harder in UW because Queller is also fighting for 3 drops, but in other combinations like Grixis it's pretty easy to play Clique/Obstructionist together. That said, I would only play Obstructionist in a draw/go deck. At 3 mana it's hard to include it in a deck that's also occasionally tapping out. But draw/go is in a pretty good position right now when it comes to turning the corner, it's getting to that point that's difficult.
Which abilities are there worth countering for three mana? A fetchland might be worth one, but not three even with a card. Maybe a Primeval Titan trigger but then Scapeshift is not all high right now. Affinity, Humans and Hollow all have abilities but most of them are repeatable and countering a single one isn't much worthy, they just trigger it again.
Maybe alone in a vacuum he isn't worthy but in a UW or Jeskai Flash deck he could have his utility.
So the main complaint is what UWx and UWR control based strategies suck. Most don't seem to think counterspell is enough and the cards that would make a difference are locked in Legacy as too powerful. So basically what it seems is needed to fix this problem are new cards.
So the main complaint is what UWx and UWR control based strategies suck. Most don't seem to think counterspell is enough and the cards that would make a difference are locked in Legacy as too powerful. So basically what it seems is needed to fix this problem are new cards.
This.
Damping Sphere is a clear signal R & D does acknowledge modern even if the card itself is a little behind the times (maybe Dominaria was on the development phase by GP Lyon?) but it gives hopes they also throw new cards in the future as silver bullets against tier 1 decks. Overall the biggest priorities would be:
A free counter. Not Force of Will since that would feel too Legacy but something playable that can make Modern feel like Modern.
Two for ones aimed at low mana costs, so they can be just as fast.
A faster Thrinisphere effect since we don't have Mishra's Workshop here. Hell, make it a Leyline. Imagine the face of an Affinity player against a Leyline of the Trinisphere at the start of the game.
Or...you depend on interaction with the stack, and a high IQ Rainbow land can invalidate your interaction, and snowball you to get the kill by Turn 3 or 4?
Seems legit as a 'police deck'.
Isn't that what twin did?
Either you misunderstood me, you've never played Twin, or this is a joke? I'm not sure. If you are serious, no, Twin was completely interactive, up to the point of the combo. It was 'Control/Combo'.
Yeah, dredge, or old Vengvine strats also did funny things. Vengvine is probably my favorite green card.
Either way the more I dwell on it, the less I want to play against these decks. So just play Storm, and play mostly by myself.
Good times.
I get that you're in the moros zone, and I feel you, but boy howdy if you do pickup Storm are you in for a suprise. Sure game 1 against a bunch of things you can goldfish on your own but that's about it. There's so much Storm hate kicking around that you have to and infact enjoy playing through hard counters to get anywhere with the deck.
Storm 9 months ago could mostly do what it wanted much like Shadow. Things are not the same now.
Also if you really like Vengevine, have you looked at H0ly's angry garden list? It might be too aggro for you but it's an amusing deck to play.
Yeah one of the reasons I dont like Storm, it always has a target on it, Wizards hates it, and so do most players.
I've played a lot of Vine lists, not sure I saw her's though. It's always fun for a few laughs, one of my most cherished win's is with that card actually against Tron, in an 8whack-Vine list.
Either way, yeah I'm mostly just bitter, I'm just going to take another extended break, as I did when ETron was everywhere. If the meta is no fun, no point in playing it.
I've played and played against twin enough to know that there were times you just slammed twin and won on turn 4 just like humans snowballing into a turn 4 win. There were also interactive games where you'd eventually win just like humans. If you think humans/hallow one are unfair decks then you should be unbiased and call twin unfair as well. Interaction is not just remand this, tap that with exarch, untap I win. Play affinity mirror if you're interested in some interaction.
Which abilities are there worth countering for three mana? A fetchland might be worth one, but not three even with a card. Maybe a Primeval Titan trigger but then Scapeshift is not all high right now. Affinity, Humans and Hollow all have abilities but most of them are repeatable and countering a single one isn't much worthy, they just trigger it again.
Maybe alone in a vacuum he isn't worthy but in a UW or Jeskai Flash deck he could have his utility.
Storm triggers, Bedlam Reveler ETB, Ulamog cast trigger, cascade, aether vial tap, creature returns in dredge, oblivion stone activations, and more. There are a lot of things you can hit.
So the main complaint is what UWx and UWR control based strategies suck. Most don't seem to think counterspell is enough and the cards that would make a difference are locked in Legacy as too powerful. So basically what it seems is needed to fix this problem are new cards.
This.
Damping Sphere is a clear signal R & D does acknowledge modern even if the card itself is a little behind the times (maybe Dominaria was on the development phase by GP Lyon?) but it gives hopes they also throw new cards in the future as silver bullets against tier 1 decks. Overall the biggest priorities would be:
A free counter. Not Force of Will since that would feel too Legacy but something playable that can make Modern feel like Modern.
Two for ones aimed at low mana costs, so they can be just as fast.
A faster Thrinisphere effect since we don't have Mishra's Workshop here. Hell, make it a Leyline. Imagine the face of an Affinity player against a Leyline of the Trinisphere at the start of the game.
Well that is the issue right something cheap enough to slow down say Hollow One. An unwind variant that cost two and untaps two lands and counters creatures?
Or maybe a Leyline variant that only lets your opponent drop one creature or full priced creatures.
Humans has a different problem you cannot stop it to a certain land via counterspells.
Hollow One though I am not sure its possible to make something cheap enough to stop them. Especially if they go first.
So maybe instead you need a cheap boardwipe ala Terminus. That should help against Humans, Hollow One and Bogles.
Granted the problem is I don't think WOTC wants control to be especially good. They love tribal and they love winning through creature combat which I am sure makes them conflicted over stuff like Bogles and Hollow Ones. Humans though is here to stay.
@Mods: Please ban all Twin talk from this thread, and dont just come down on those who RESPOND to the incorrect statements.
I just said the truth. Splinter Twin had little to none bad matchups, and it was winning too much, more than Affinity, except that you could hate on Affinity harder if you wanted.
There is nothing wrong here. Just a bunch of people wanting to play an archetype that has no bad matchups again.
Sorry, can't have that. In the real world, your deck must be dog to some matchups!
I'm sorry, but this is complete nonsense. Twin absolutely had some bad matchups. If it, per your claim, had no matchups (or "little to none" bad matchups), then it should have been completely dominant. After all, Abzan Pod, despite its astounding level of dominance prior to its ban, had some absolutely terrible matchups, and we're not even talking about fringe decks here (Tron and Scapeshift squashed that deck into the ground). Twin never came close to that level of dominance. So the idea that Twin somehow had fewer bad matchups than a deck that outperformed it on every metric is absurd.
I've played and played against twin enough to know that there were times you just slammed twin and won on turn 4 just like humans snowballing into a turn 4 win. There were also interactive games where you'd eventually win just like humans. If you think humans/hallow one are unfair decks then you should be unbiased and call twin unfair as well. Interaction is not just remand this, tap that with exarch, untap I win. Play affinity mirror if you're interested in some interaction.
If you could slam Twin Turn 4, then your opponent failed to interact turns 1, 2, and 3, and its not like Twin had a means to cast its spells without being denied, protect its hand without cost, or accelerate mana.
You are literally proving my point that Twin forces non-interactive decks, to play interaction or die.
Given Dominaria, there's multiple cards that could force the opponent to interact or die. I didn't even realize how crazy some of the 4 drops are in the set. There's already a flexible infinite combo deck that is viable in standard and can go off turn 4-5 using historic cards.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
im not understanding the difference here. every deck with a proactive gameplan puts the onus on the opponent to respond or fall behind (or outright lose). if you dont do anything storm is probably gonna kill you, the same goes for infect. that doesnt mean they are policing the format or anything.
what made twin different wasnt that it forced interaction, but rather that the combo had a relatively low deckbuilding cost meaning you could play a bunch of reactive elements of your own. so even against decks that were technically faster it could play back against them AND threaten to win on the spot.
so it was a deck that was proactive but not necessarily 'linear' in its deckbuilding nor gameplay. in which case i think there are some comparisons to humans that are valid, however the actual methods used are vastly different.
what allowed twin to act as gatekeeper was that it was simply a better deck. it took the best parts of both sides of the interactivity/non-interactivity dichotomy and played them seamlessly. which in turn was why you were a fool to play anything else in the colors.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Given Dominaria, there's multiple cards that could force the opponent to interact or die. I didn't even realize how crazy some of the 4 drops are in the set. There's already a flexible infinite combo deck that is viable in standard and can go off turn 4-5 using historic cards.
Dunno, at first sight looks like slightly alternate version of Ironworks combo. Probably worse since it is easier to remove Teshar. Needs a bunch of cards in play so it's certainly not a case of Twin or Dark Dephts compact 2 card combo that can dedicate space to digging/tutoring and protection.
Bring it. There's already like plenty of ways to die to a turn 4-5 combo so it's not going to make much difference. Prepare to get those Teshar's bolted, discarded, countered, etc.
So basically what it seems is needed to fix this problem are new cards.
Basically this. If they're not going to give us back Twin, then we need lots of good answers that are also threats at a reasonable cost. Something like a 3cmc Venser, Shaper Savant-like card, or a bunch of low-cost flash creature that have fragile bodies and do useful things when they enter. Every other color gets new spells-with-legs nearly every set; except for blue. Blue creatures are always way overcosted, or have needlessly nerfed and weak abilities. Nimble Obstructionist was the closest "swing and a miss" in a while though. As I said, card would be at least playable if it Stifled on ETB and cycled for 1-2 mana.
So basically what it seems is needed to fix this problem are new cards.
Basically this. If they're not going to give us back Twin, then we need lots of good answers that are also threats at a reasonable cost. Something like a 3cmc Venser, Shaper Savant-like card, or a bunch of low-cost flash creature that have fragile bodies and do useful things when they enter. Every other color gets new spells-with-legs nearly every set; except for blue. Blue creatures are always way overcosted, or have needlessly nerfed and weak abilities. Nimble Obstructionist was the closest "swing and a miss" in a while though. As I said, card would be at least playable if it Stifled on ETB and cycled for 1-2 mana.
Sounds good they should just make sure they don't make those new creatures, humans.
what allowed twin to act as gatekeeper was that it was simply a better deck. it took the best parts of both sides of the interactivity/non-interactivity dichotomy and played them seamlessly. which in turn was why you were a fool to play anything else in the colors.
im not understanding the difference here. every deck with a proactive gameplan puts the onus on the opponent to respond or fall behind (or outright lose). if you dont do anything storm is probably gonna kill you, the same goes for infect. that doesnt mean they are policing the format or anything.
what made twin different wasnt that it forced interaction, but rather that the combo had a relatively low deckbuilding cost meaning you could play a bunch of reactive elements of your own. so even against decks that were technically faster it could play back against them AND threaten to win on the spot.
so it was a deck that was proactive but not necessarily 'linear' in its deckbuilding nor gameplay. in which case i think there are some comparisons to humans that are valid, however the actual methods used are vastly different.
what allowed twin to act as gatekeeper was that it was simply a better deck. it took the best parts of both sides of the interactivity/non-interactivity dichotomy and played them seamlessly. which in turn was why you were a fool to play anything else in the colors.
You were a fool to play anything else while it was legal period. If your options are grind out a game with Jund or Abzan, fire an inconsistent combo like Grishoalbrand, or play a combo deck that kills you if you dare tap out past turn 3, but also plays counter magic, the choice seems fairly obvious.
Funny story from back in the day. I was in Top 8 at a local tournament, and was waiting to see who my opponent would be for 3rd place, since I lost the semi-final matchup to Infect. It was Tron versus Twin. Tron played went second game 1, and assembled Tron on Turn 3. He tapped out, slammed Karn, and then died because Twin flashed in Exarch. Just an anecdote.
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Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
eh i think there were merits to playing the other power house decks. jund of course went through its series of bannings, but it was definitely better than twin at various points in its lifespan. pod was...well pod. i didnt consider old GR tron to be that great tbh.
when i decided to play modern over standard i was stuck choosing between affinity and twin. i thought both were equally good at the time, but ultimately hedged by buying UR staples since they would give me a better platform to play other decks in the future. i wouldnt say that i regret my decision, even in hindsight, but i still think affinity is amazing. it takes a top 3 spot on my list of most skill intensive decks in the format (amulet, lantern, and 4c/grixis shadow being the other candidates).
i really do wonder what the format would look like had death shadow been discovered sooner.
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That's the Teshar Loops combo deck. Honestly, Helm of the Host is pretty easily abused and I'm thinking people might be overlooking sagas not realizing that they are very easy to manipulate. Phyrexian Scriptures is a turn 4 board lock. I don't know how many people are brewing in modern with these things, but manipulating and passing around counters seems like a pretty solid strategy when those tools are History of Benalia, Phyrexian Scriptures, Power Conduit, Hex Parasite, Thrull Parasite, and Timespinning. I'm still sort of toying with Time of Ice because that one is really hilarious. There's also proliferate, but there aren't a lot of good proliferate cards outside maybe the draw 2 one.
FYI, if you can add a counter while it's the opponents turn, that part of the saga goes off. It's like having a planeswalker that you can activate on your opponents turn.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
That's the Teshar Loops combo deck. Honestly, Helm of the Host is pretty easily abused and I'm thinking people might be overlooking sagas not realizing that they are very easy to manipulate. Phyrexian Scriptures is a turn 4 board lock. I don't know how many people are brewing in modern with these things, but manipulating and passing around counters seems like a pretty solid strategy when those tools are History of Benalia, Phyrexian Scriptures, Power Conduit, Hex Parasite, Thrull Parasite, and Timespinning. I'm still sort of toying with Time of Ice because that one is really hilarious. There's also proliferate, but there aren't a lot of good proliferate cards outside maybe the draw 2 one.
FYI, if you can add a counter while it's the opponents turn, that part of the saga goes off. It's like having a planeswalker that you can activate on your opponents turn.
We're talking about Modern, right? What equipment have you seen played in the last year, outside of Cranial Plating and Puresteel Combo? Moreover, which equipment that costs 4 to play and 5 to equip? In what world is that a viable Modern strategy?
As to Sagas, if you're using bad cards to make other bad cards less bad, your deck is probably bad. Caveat to this being, obviously, Lantern Control. Brew all you like, but I don't foresee Sagas having a place in Modern, which is a shame because I like the concept. Maybe History of Benalia, but I feel tokens has better 3 mana stuff to do.
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Either you misunderstood me, you've never played Twin, or this is a joke? I'm not sure. If you are serious, no, Twin was completely interactive, up to the point of the combo. It was 'Control/Combo'.
Yeah one of the reasons I dont like Storm, it always has a target on it, Wizards hates it, and so do most players.
I've played a lot of Vine lists, not sure I saw her's though. It's always fun for a few laughs, one of my most cherished win's is with that card actually against Tron, in an 8whack-Vine list.
Either way, yeah I'm mostly just bitter, I'm just going to take another extended break, as I did when ETron was everywhere. If the meta is no fun, no point in playing it.
Spirits
It solves a different problem. You're looking at it as a creature, it's primarily a Stifle that has an alternate mode of becoming a creature. As a Stifle, if you use it correctly you get a 2 for 1 thanks to the draw a card portion of the cycling. A 3 mana 2 for 1 is already playable in most circumstances, that it has an alternate mode of being able to hit the opponent or trade with a creature pushes it over the edge.
If you're not feeling it, there's no point forcing it.
I think her list went something like:
4 Flamekin Harbinger
3 Bushwhacker
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Ballista
4 Hollow One
4 Noose Constrictor
4 Street Wraith
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Vengevine
4 Faithless Looting
4 Bridge from Below
17 Lands
The goal being to chuck things in the graveyard AND having them count as being cast at the same time with the X's so that you get your Vengevine back and make Zombie tokens via Bridge at the same time (I've seen another version with Endless One's to help that plan). I've only mucked about with it a few times online but it's pretty amusing. I'm not sure if I would enjoy it longer term though.
But as you're not usually on the aggro train, this might not be up your alley despite Vengevine.
Modern: Storm
Legacy: ANT
We have a 3 mana Stifle already in Disallow, and that still wouldn't see play because 3 mana needs to do a lot. Stifle + draw isn't good enough, a vanilla flier isn't good enough, it has to do something like that and then some, or it needs to cost 2. There are too many better options to play at 3 mana (like Clique and Queller) to serve as a tempo spell with flying legs, which is why those are seeing play and Nimble Obstructionist is not. NO is either an overcosted narrow effect or an overcosted vanilla flier. The only way this card would see play is if its stifle ability was on enter the battlefield, because stifle does nothing, but stifle + pressure is exactly what blue needs.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
If I'm going to play, then I may as well be goldfishing, and its between UR Thing/Kiln or Storm.
Spirits
Disallow is not remotely the same, because Disallow doesn't cantrip, Obstructionist does if used as a stifle. As for your other point, I play them all alongside each other. It's harder in UW because Queller is also fighting for 3 drops, but in other combinations like Grixis it's pretty easy to play Clique/Obstructionist together. That said, I would only play Obstructionist in a draw/go deck. At 3 mana it's hard to include it in a deck that's also occasionally tapping out. But draw/go is in a pretty good position right now when it comes to turning the corner, it's getting to that point that's difficult.
Maybe alone in a vacuum he isn't worthy but in a UW or Jeskai Flash deck he could have his utility.
This.
Damping Sphere is a clear signal R & D does acknowledge modern even if the card itself is a little behind the times (maybe Dominaria was on the development phase by GP Lyon?) but it gives hopes they also throw new cards in the future as silver bullets against tier 1 decks. Overall the biggest priorities would be:
A free counter. Not Force of Will since that would feel too Legacy but something playable that can make Modern feel like Modern.
Two for ones aimed at low mana costs, so they can be just as fast.
A faster Thrinisphere effect since we don't have Mishra's Workshop here. Hell, make it a Leyline. Imagine the face of an Affinity player against a Leyline of the Trinisphere at the start of the game.
I've played and played against twin enough to know that there were times you just slammed twin and won on turn 4 just like humans snowballing into a turn 4 win. There were also interactive games where you'd eventually win just like humans. If you think humans/hallow one are unfair decks then you should be unbiased and call twin unfair as well. Interaction is not just remand this, tap that with exarch, untap I win. Play affinity mirror if you're interested in some interaction.
Storm triggers, Bedlam Reveler ETB, Ulamog cast trigger, cascade, aether vial tap, creature returns in dredge, oblivion stone activations, and more. There are a lot of things you can hit.
Well that is the issue right something cheap enough to slow down say Hollow One. An unwind variant that cost two and untaps two lands and counters creatures?
Or maybe a Leyline variant that only lets your opponent drop one creature or full priced creatures.
Humans has a different problem you cannot stop it to a certain land via counterspells.
Hollow One though I am not sure its possible to make something cheap enough to stop them. Especially if they go first.
So maybe instead you need a cheap boardwipe ala Terminus. That should help against Humans, Hollow One and Bogles.
Granted the problem is I don't think WOTC wants control to be especially good. They love tribal and they love winning through creature combat which I am sure makes them conflicted over stuff like Bogles and Hollow Ones. Humans though is here to stay.
If you could slam Twin Turn 4, then your opponent failed to interact turns 1, 2, and 3, and its not like Twin had a means to cast its spells without being denied, protect its hand without cost, or accelerate mana.
You are literally proving my point that Twin forces non-interactive decks, to play interaction or die.
Spirits
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Spirits
what made twin different wasnt that it forced interaction, but rather that the combo had a relatively low deckbuilding cost meaning you could play a bunch of reactive elements of your own. so even against decks that were technically faster it could play back against them AND threaten to win on the spot.
so it was a deck that was proactive but not necessarily 'linear' in its deckbuilding nor gameplay. in which case i think there are some comparisons to humans that are valid, however the actual methods used are vastly different.
what allowed twin to act as gatekeeper was that it was simply a better deck. it took the best parts of both sides of the interactivity/non-interactivity dichotomy and played them seamlessly. which in turn was why you were a fool to play anything else in the colors.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Teshar Loops?
Dunno, at first sight looks like slightly alternate version of Ironworks combo. Probably worse since it is easier to remove Teshar. Needs a bunch of cards in play so it's certainly not a case of Twin or Dark Dephts compact 2 card combo that can dedicate space to digging/tutoring and protection.
Bring it. There's already like plenty of ways to die to a turn 4-5 combo so it's not going to make much difference. Prepare to get those Teshar's bolted, discarded, countered, etc.
Basically this. If they're not going to give us back Twin, then we need lots of good answers that are also threats at a reasonable cost. Something like a 3cmc Venser, Shaper Savant-like card, or a bunch of low-cost flash creature that have fragile bodies and do useful things when they enter. Every other color gets new spells-with-legs nearly every set; except for blue. Blue creatures are always way overcosted, or have needlessly nerfed and weak abilities. Nimble Obstructionist was the closest "swing and a miss" in a while though. As I said, card would be at least playable if it Stifled on ETB and cycled for 1-2 mana.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Sounds good they should just make sure they don't make those new creatures, humans.
Now we are talking.
Spirits
You were a fool to play anything else while it was legal period. If your options are grind out a game with Jund or Abzan, fire an inconsistent combo like Grishoalbrand, or play a combo deck that kills you if you dare tap out past turn 3, but also plays counter magic, the choice seems fairly obvious.
Funny story from back in the day. I was in Top 8 at a local tournament, and was waiting to see who my opponent would be for 3rd place, since I lost the semi-final matchup to Infect. It was Tron versus Twin. Tron played went second game 1, and assembled Tron on Turn 3. He tapped out, slammed Karn, and then died because Twin flashed in Exarch. Just an anecdote.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
when i decided to play modern over standard i was stuck choosing between affinity and twin. i thought both were equally good at the time, but ultimately hedged by buying UR staples since they would give me a better platform to play other decks in the future. i wouldnt say that i regret my decision, even in hindsight, but i still think affinity is amazing. it takes a top 3 spot on my list of most skill intensive decks in the format (amulet, lantern, and 4c/grixis shadow being the other candidates).
i really do wonder what the format would look like had death shadow been discovered sooner.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX-WKYKGceI
That's the Teshar Loops combo deck. Honestly, Helm of the Host is pretty easily abused and I'm thinking people might be overlooking sagas not realizing that they are very easy to manipulate. Phyrexian Scriptures is a turn 4 board lock. I don't know how many people are brewing in modern with these things, but manipulating and passing around counters seems like a pretty solid strategy when those tools are History of Benalia, Phyrexian Scriptures, Power Conduit, Hex Parasite, Thrull Parasite, and Timespinning. I'm still sort of toying with Time of Ice because that one is really hilarious. There's also proliferate, but there aren't a lot of good proliferate cards outside maybe the draw 2 one.
FYI, if you can add a counter while it's the opponents turn, that part of the saga goes off. It's like having a planeswalker that you can activate on your opponents turn.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
We're talking about Modern, right? What equipment have you seen played in the last year, outside of Cranial Plating and Puresteel Combo? Moreover, which equipment that costs 4 to play and 5 to equip? In what world is that a viable Modern strategy?
As to Sagas, if you're using bad cards to make other bad cards less bad, your deck is probably bad. Caveat to this being, obviously, Lantern Control. Brew all you like, but I don't foresee Sagas having a place in Modern, which is a shame because I like the concept. Maybe History of Benalia, but I feel tokens has better 3 mana stuff to do.