I understand why people would feel salty after playing against Hollow One, but are we really saying that Humans is some kind of major problem here? Burn? Affinity? Where is the patience to let the format handle itself?
I understand why people would feel salty after playing against Hollow One, but are we really saying that Humans is some kind of major problem here? Burn? Affinity? Where is the patience to let the format handle itself?
[quote from="gkourou »" url="/forums/the-game/modern/791992-the-state-of-modern-thread-b-r-16-04-2018?comment=320"]
But again, this is just an example why Twin discussions go nowhere. People make melodramatic and exaggerated claims about a misremembered past, and we get yelled at for adding context or making clarifications.
This.
@Mods: Please ban all Twin talk from this thread, and dont just come down on those who RESPOND to the incorrect statements.
i dont believe anyone has said humans is an issue. from what ive seen the consensus is that it is a fair aggro deck, but probably the best one of its kind seen in a long while. i agree with that. the question now is what will it take to knock it off its pedestal.
vanilla control and removal heavy midrange probably arent the answer. humans just barreled through a meta full of that like it wasnt even there. decks relying on few, but big, blockers get torn up by reflector mage. so i suspect it will be decks that play heavily to the board and can mix up the attacking/blocking game such as GWx company decks.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
i dont believe anyone has said humans is an issue. from what ive seen the consensus is that it is a fair aggro deck, but probably the best one of its kind seen in a long while. i agree with that. the question now is what will it take to knock it off its pedestal.
vanilla control and removal heavy midrange probably arent the answer. humans just barreled through a meta full of that like it wasnt even there. decks relying on few, but big, blockers get torn up by reflector mage. so i suspect it will be decks that play heavily to the board and can mix up the attacking/blocking game such as GWx company decks.
My issue is not with humans, simply that its yet another vector for Aggro. 100% agree that Control/Midrange are not the answer (comically as Midrange is what should beat it traditionally) but gumming up the board with Creatures, while threatening some creature based combo with GW, would certainly be where I would look.
So we can all just play creature based strats....like Standard.
i dont believe anyone has said humans is an issue. from what ive seen the consensus is that it is a fair aggro deck, but probably the best one of its kind seen in a long while. i agree with that. the question now is what will it take to knock it off its pedestal.
vanilla control and removal heavy midrange probably arent the answer. humans just barreled through a meta full of that like it wasnt even there. decks relying on few, but big, blockers get torn up by reflector mage. so i suspect it will be decks that play heavily to the board and can mix up the attacking/blocking game such as GWx company decks.
My issue is not with humans, simply that its yet another vector for Aggro. 100% agree that Control/Midrange are not the answer (comically as Midrange is what should beat it traditionally) but gumming up the board with Creatures, while threatening some creature based combo with GW, would certainly be where I would look.
So we can all just play creature based strats....like Standard.
You've also got various U/x control decks, blood moon decks, lantern control, tezzerator, scapeshift etc if you don't want to play a creature based strat.
To say there are U/x, or Blue Moon, when the fact of the matter is that those are not competitive with the hordes of Hollow/Human/Bogle/Affinity/Burn, has been the topic (at its root anyway) for pages and pages. Someone posted a great thought several pages ago, or in the last version of this thread.
The fact there is UWR Control, UWR Flash, UW Control (aka Mana Denial...) UR Moon (Breach, Kiki, Jace, Thing in the Ice) is not a 'good thing' it simply reflects that Ux is scattered, and poor.
As HolyDiva would say while on her vacation from the forums, they are all just bad decks.
If Blue Moon was actually good enough, that would be one thing. It isnt though. It dies to Human/Hollow One just like Jund does.
Humans are insane and I'm a little salty that when it comes to them R & D simply doesn't register they might be used in conjunction but when it comes to Elves, Goblins and Merfolk it is obvious they are not ignoring their interaction with non Standard cards. But whatever, the point is that as powerful as Humans are, they are the deck that is currently policing the combo and linear strategies. A healthy dose of Meddling Mages and freebooters make sure any deck that is way too focused on winning on a single card gets properly punished. If you get beat by humans, you were probably putting way too much eggs in a single basket.
It seems that when it comes to beating humans, people can't keep a cool head. I've seen on camera stuff like going for full copies of single card only to have them rotting in hand in multiples to a single Meddling mage or the same on creatures due to Reflector Mage. On sweepers, EE is miles better than Anger of the gods but it seems that currently people can only think of the latter when talking about sweepers.
Or...you depend on interaction with the stack, and a high IQ Rainbow land can invalidate your interaction, and snowball you to get the kill by Turn 3 or 4?
What I'm trying to figure out is where are all the human deck players at that have meddling mages? Those guys haven't been printed since Alara and they aren't exactly easy to find now that everyone has basically bought them up. Probably need to add that to the list of things behind the Runed Halo that need to get a second run.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
What I'm trying to figure out is where are all the human deck players at that have meddling mages? Those guys haven't been printed since Alara and they aren't exactly easy to find now that everyone has basically bought them up. Probably need to add that to the list of things behind the Runed Halo that need to get a second run.
I have 3 Meddling Mages from Planeshift, but I've played for quite a while. I bought them for $5 each years ago. I also had 3 foil Planeshift copies, but I just sold them today on High End Facebook for $73 each (gave a deal to the dude).
I also played during Shards of Alara and I recall seeing so many of those Meddling Mages. I had one myself, but am unable to find it, lol. Nobody at all used them during that time, so maybe somebody just picked up a bunch of jank...turned good card nowadays?
I also have 4 Runed Halos because a few years back, I wanted to try RW Enduring Ideal. I HAAAATED the fact that I had to pay $6 each for them (already had 2 in my bulk from when I played back then). Now it doesn't look so bad... Between that and Greater Auramancy going up so high, it basically is bulk turned into some money.
*I guess to answer your question better, either older players who hold onto cards or players trying to build jank decks could both have copies of such cards. They weren't good for many years, but now they're solid AND in need of a reprint. To me even if a card is jank, there's really no reason for me to sell it for under $5 unless I know FOR SURE that it isn't worth that.
**Right now I'm trying to hunt down some odd teen copies of Helix Pinnacle that I specced on years ago. I have been unable to find them, but I'm sure I'll get there soon. (Looks like someone on FB is selling them for $11 each, so I'm assuming it's somewhere close to that.)
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
These sorts of threads were more interesting to read when discussing
Splinter Twin was off the table.
Not really. Then the usual suspects just played chicken with the mods, referencing the card without ever actually typing the words "Splinter Twin". It was the same mess with the same passive-aggressiveness, at least now everyone is open and honest about their intent.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Obviously the 3ple top 8 at GP pittsburgh, or the double Top 8 at the PT FRF, or the other PT win, or the infinite top 8/ wins at GP's or SCG's are inaccurate statements.
Twin was winning too much
We've been over this multiple times in the past, but Twin's numbers are more like "about 1 copy per Top 8" and "2 of 7 GP wins" with 6 of 7 winners from 2015 being unique archetypes, and the two Twin builds being drastically different from each other. PTs were PTs, but they were also self-fulfilling metagames with pros trying to next-level each other and outcomes derived from 40% draft results.
But again, this is just an example why Twin discussions go nowhere. People make melodramatic and exaggerated claims about a misremembered past, and we get yelled at for adding context or making clarifications.
Nevermind the fact that Affinity had nearly as many wins, Top 8s, and metashare percentage. And that BGx (Jund/Abzan) combined for a larger meta share than Twin (UR/Grixis/Jeskai/Temur).
They go nowhere because you put your fingers in your ears anytime anyone ever brings anything that contradicts your narrative. This grand persecution complex you have has to stop.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I'm not on board with the idea that Modern is in trouble. Some troubling trends, perhaps, but it feels like the mood here has somehow shifted to 'the sky is falling' which is just ludicrous. Over the past year, we've seen Modern do a pretty good job of regulating itself, and I just can't buy that Hollow One and Humans somehow will prevent that from happening. What these decks are doing is forcing the meta to change and adapt, which for me has been exciting.
Maybe I'm in the minority, and that's fine, but having to analyze what's happening and changing my deck/strategy accordingly is a lot of the fun of Magic. You don't have to deconstruct your deck completely every few months like Standard, but changing some cards every once in awhile is refreshing. For instance, my Cyclonic Rifts had been collecting dust until I started seeing Hollow One show up in force. I even picked up Reality Shift since my standard removal suite wasn't cutting it. If a few months from now we're still seeing Hollow One continue to put up great results, then I think there's a more legitimate basis for discussing bans and whatnot.
[Theory]: With hollow one in particular, I came across the idea of Steel Sabotage which I am currently discussing as an option with the rest of the Faeries crew in the discord. Also with the printing of cast down I think the removal coverage can help cover ground against the deck. Flaying Tendrils is a card that also helps. But my issue is the question of "Where in the metagame do these cards also slot into, so they arent for one matchup" Affinity does come to mind here for both, but I am certain I will need more of a developing theory/plan to sleeve these up and test them in practice.
[Thought]: The deck seems answerable from this perspective, but metagaming in an actual environment is harder without racing pressure. That being said, I think the issue is that the development of blue from an R&D standpoint should move back to blue's resource being tempo and time rather than slow grindy control value. Maybe modern blue needs an array of efficient tempo threats to race what it cant answer
Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
Obviously the 3ple top 8 at GP pittsburgh, or the double Top 8 at the PT FRF, or the other PT win, or the infinite top 8/ wins at GP's or SCG's are inaccurate statements.
Twin was winning too much
We've been over this multiple times in the past, but Twin's numbers are more like "about 1 copy per Top 8" and "2 of 7 GP wins" with 6 of 7 winners from 2015 being unique archetypes, and the two Twin builds being drastically different from each other. PTs were PTs, but they were also self-fulfilling metagames with pros trying to next-level each other and outcomes derived from 40% draft results.
But again, this is just an example why Twin discussions go nowhere. People make melodramatic and exaggerated claims about a misremembered past, and we get yelled at for adding context or making clarifications.
Nevermind the fact that Affinity had nearly as many wins, Top 8s, and metashare percentage. And that BGx (Jund/Abzan) combined for a larger meta share than Twin (UR/Grixis/Jeskai/Temur).
They go nowhere because you put your fingers in your ears anytime anyone ever brings anything that contradicts your narrative. This grand persecution complex you have has to stop.
I address individual questions and comments with multiple, reasonable replies and support. Meanwhile, doomsayers make things up, exaggerate, or blatantly misrepresent a documented past. Your comment is another example of complaining without adding anything to the conversation, and is far more toxic than constructive discussion with examples and support.
Obviously the 3ple top 8 at GP pittsburgh, or the double Top 8 at the PT FRF, or the other PT win, or the infinite top 8/ wins at GP's or SCG's are inaccurate statements.
Twin was winning too much
We've been over this multiple times in the past, but Twin's numbers are more like "about 1 copy per Top 8" and "2 of 7 GP wins" with 6 of 7 winners from 2015 being unique archetypes, and the two Twin builds being drastically different from each other. PTs were PTs, but they were also self-fulfilling metagames with pros trying to next-level each other and outcomes derived from 40% draft results.
But again, this is just an example why Twin discussions go nowhere. People make melodramatic and exaggerated claims about a misremembered past, and we get yelled at for adding context or making clarifications.
Nevermind the fact that Affinity had nearly as many wins, Top 8s, and metashare percentage. And that BGx (Jund/Abzan) combined for a larger meta share than Twin (UR/Grixis/Jeskai/Temur).
They go nowhere because you put your fingers in your ears anytime anyone ever brings anything that contradicts your narrative. This grand persecution complex you have has to stop.
I address individual questions and comments with multiple, reasonable replies and support. Meanwhile, doomsayers make things up, exaggerate, or blatantly misrepresent a documented past. Your comment is another example of complaining without adding anything to the conversation, and is far more toxic than constructive discussion with examples and support.
The problem with modern is that it is breaking apart bit by bit with time. Wizards designers are constantly trying to find more design space to build new sets from and often revisit areas that were already visited before. When they do come up with an idea they don't necessarily look back to 8th-10th edition to see what is potentially broken with the next set. They are probably doing that a bit more now after the results of these last two years, especially post BFZ block where they basically admitted to not caring about eye of ugin when making the eldrazi.
Even if they did start looking back to see what might break their latest format, would anyone have even looked at Goblin Lore and Burning Inquiry? In the case of 5c humans I don't think anyone outside of commander even knew that Ancient Ziggurat existed so why would the designers have that at the front of their minds when making Unclaimed Territory? And speaking of which, that would have been a great set to reprint Ancient Ziggurat.
At the end of the day it's not even about linear vs non-linear decks. It's more about how the format at the highest level forces players to have to do something turn 2-3 to either put a plan in motion or at least do a little set up while also running interference to really be successful. Strait up removal spells almost don't cut it anymore, let alone counter spells. What removal does exist has to be so efficient and so low cost it doesn't interfere with the aforementioned set up or game plan, which is why Fatal Push sees play while Hero's Downfall see's basically no play.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
3 mana removal is about as useful as a 3 mana counter, in our format of 'free' 4/4's.
I wish I liked the lines of play with Storm...
Actually went and checked my retired dredge deck because I swore I was putting out more power on a single body than 4 by turn 3-4, but it was more like 4 power max on Vengevine backed up by about two or three other creatures with 2-3 power. I'm pretty sure I was swinging lethal by turn 4 like clockwork even through hate cards simply because the locals who played modern never saw anything like dredge before at the time.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think it would be absolutely fantastic if they did that.
Nimble Obstructionist has helped on this front immensely. It's a versatile card that lets you play control well, and also helps with quickly turning the corner into killing the opponent.
I think it would be absolutely fantastic if they did that.
Nimble Obstructionist has helped on this front immensely. It's a versatile card that lets you play control well, and also helps with quickly turning the corner into killing the opponent.
That must be why it shows up in 20 out of 4352 decks listed on MTG Top 8 under any category (Major, Professional, Competitive, Regular) since Hour was released. That's 0.4% of Modern decks. Personally, I think the card is trash because it should have its counter ability as an ETB, not when you cycle. Cycling should have just been a bonus option for U or 1U. Instead, they played it super safe and made another fairly bad tempo card that isn't even seeing Standard play (8 of 2818 decks). If I'm running a 3 drop flying flash threat, I want it to be Clique or Queller, or something that does anything of value when it enters.
Or...you depend on interaction with the stack, and a high IQ Rainbow land can invalidate your interaction, and snowball you to get the kill by Turn 3 or 4?
Or...you depend on interaction with the stack, and a high IQ Rainbow land can invalidate your interaction, and snowball you to get the kill by Turn 3 or 4?
Seems legit as a 'police deck'.
Isn't that what twin did?
The fetch-based lands regularly dealt the player 3-6 damage every game (sometimes more with the need for both UUU and RR), which is much different than pain-free rainbow lands that act as free counterspells too. What interaction did Twin invalidate? If anything, it promoted interaction by being weak to every form of maindeck answer: discard, creature removal, and counterspells.
Yeah, dredge, or old Vengvine strats also did funny things. Vengvine is probably my favorite green card.
Either way the more I dwell on it, the less I want to play against these decks. So just play Storm, and play mostly by myself.
Good times.
I get that you're in the moros zone, and I feel you, but boy howdy if you do pickup Storm are you in for a suprise. Sure game 1 against a bunch of things you can goldfish on your own but that's about it. There's so much Storm hate kicking around that you have to and infact enjoy playing through hard counters to get anywhere with the deck.
Storm 9 months ago could mostly do what it wanted much like Shadow. Things are not the same now.
Also if you really like Vengevine, have you looked at H0ly's angry garden list? It might be too aggro for you but it's an amusing deck to play.
Gone, after 2+ Years.
This.
@Mods: Please ban all Twin talk from this thread, and dont just come down on those who RESPOND to the incorrect statements.
Spirits
vanilla control and removal heavy midrange probably arent the answer. humans just barreled through a meta full of that like it wasnt even there. decks relying on few, but big, blockers get torn up by reflector mage. so i suspect it will be decks that play heavily to the board and can mix up the attacking/blocking game such as GWx company decks.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)My issue is not with humans, simply that its yet another vector for Aggro. 100% agree that Control/Midrange are not the answer (comically as Midrange is what should beat it traditionally) but gumming up the board with Creatures, while threatening some creature based combo with GW, would certainly be where I would look.
So we can all just play creature based strats....like Standard.
Spirits
You've also got various U/x control decks, blood moon decks, lantern control, tezzerator, scapeshift etc if you don't want to play a creature based strat.
To say there are U/x, or Blue Moon, when the fact of the matter is that those are not competitive with the hordes of Hollow/Human/Bogle/Affinity/Burn, has been the topic (at its root anyway) for pages and pages. Someone posted a great thought several pages ago, or in the last version of this thread.
The fact there is UWR Control, UWR Flash, UW Control (aka Mana Denial...) UR Moon (Breach, Kiki, Jace, Thing in the Ice) is not a 'good thing' it simply reflects that Ux is scattered, and poor.
As HolyDiva would say while on her vacation from the forums, they are all just bad decks.
If Blue Moon was actually good enough, that would be one thing. It isnt though. It dies to Human/Hollow One just like Jund does.
Spirits
It seems that when it comes to beating humans, people can't keep a cool head. I've seen on camera stuff like going for full copies of single card only to have them rotting in hand in multiples to a single Meddling mage or the same on creatures due to Reflector Mage. On sweepers, EE is miles better than Anger of the gods but it seems that currently people can only think of the latter when talking about sweepers.
Seems legit as a 'police deck'.
Spirits
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Runed Halo was legit sold out not long ago though, so I feel you on that one.
If I had any desire to play such a thing...I could put it together for not much more sunk costs, but...no.
Spirits
I have 3 Meddling Mages from Planeshift, but I've played for quite a while. I bought them for $5 each years ago. I also had 3 foil Planeshift copies, but I just sold them today on High End Facebook for $73 each (gave a deal to the dude).
I also played during Shards of Alara and I recall seeing so many of those Meddling Mages. I had one myself, but am unable to find it, lol. Nobody at all used them during that time, so maybe somebody just picked up a bunch of jank...turned good card nowadays?
I also have 4 Runed Halos because a few years back, I wanted to try RW Enduring Ideal. I HAAAATED the fact that I had to pay $6 each for them (already had 2 in my bulk from when I played back then). Now it doesn't look so bad... Between that and Greater Auramancy going up so high, it basically is bulk turned into some money.
*I guess to answer your question better, either older players who hold onto cards or players trying to build jank decks could both have copies of such cards. They weren't good for many years, but now they're solid AND in need of a reprint. To me even if a card is jank, there's really no reason for me to sell it for under $5 unless I know FOR SURE that it isn't worth that.
**Right now I'm trying to hunt down some odd teen copies of Helix Pinnacle that I specced on years ago. I have been unable to find them, but I'm sure I'll get there soon. (Looks like someone on FB is selling them for $11 each, so I'm assuming it's somewhere close to that.)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Not really. Then the usual suspects just played chicken with the mods, referencing the card without ever actually typing the words "Splinter Twin". It was the same mess with the same passive-aggressiveness, at least now everyone is open and honest about their intent.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
They go nowhere because you put your fingers in your ears anytime anyone ever brings anything that contradicts your narrative. This grand persecution complex you have has to stop.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Maybe I'm in the minority, and that's fine, but having to analyze what's happening and changing my deck/strategy accordingly is a lot of the fun of Magic. You don't have to deconstruct your deck completely every few months like Standard, but changing some cards every once in awhile is refreshing. For instance, my Cyclonic Rifts had been collecting dust until I started seeing Hollow One show up in force. I even picked up Reality Shift since my standard removal suite wasn't cutting it. If a few months from now we're still seeing Hollow One continue to put up great results, then I think there's a more legitimate basis for discussing bans and whatnot.
[Thought]: The deck seems answerable from this perspective, but metagaming in an actual environment is harder without racing pressure. That being said, I think the issue is that the development of blue from an R&D standpoint should move back to blue's resource being tempo and time rather than slow grindy control value. Maybe modern blue needs an array of efficient tempo threats to race what it cant answer
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
I think it would be absolutely fantastic if they did that.
I address individual questions and comments with multiple, reasonable replies and support. Meanwhile, doomsayers make things up, exaggerate, or blatantly misrepresent a documented past. Your comment is another example of complaining without adding anything to the conversation, and is far more toxic than constructive discussion with examples and support.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
The problem with modern is that it is breaking apart bit by bit with time. Wizards designers are constantly trying to find more design space to build new sets from and often revisit areas that were already visited before. When they do come up with an idea they don't necessarily look back to 8th-10th edition to see what is potentially broken with the next set. They are probably doing that a bit more now after the results of these last two years, especially post BFZ block where they basically admitted to not caring about eye of ugin when making the eldrazi.
Even if they did start looking back to see what might break their latest format, would anyone have even looked at Goblin Lore and Burning Inquiry? In the case of 5c humans I don't think anyone outside of commander even knew that Ancient Ziggurat existed so why would the designers have that at the front of their minds when making Unclaimed Territory? And speaking of which, that would have been a great set to reprint Ancient Ziggurat.
At the end of the day it's not even about linear vs non-linear decks. It's more about how the format at the highest level forces players to have to do something turn 2-3 to either put a plan in motion or at least do a little set up while also running interference to really be successful. Strait up removal spells almost don't cut it anymore, let alone counter spells. What removal does exist has to be so efficient and so low cost it doesn't interfere with the aforementioned set up or game plan, which is why Fatal Push sees play while Hero's Downfall see's basically no play.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I wish I liked the lines of play with Storm...
Spirits
Actually went and checked my retired dredge deck because I swore I was putting out more power on a single body than 4 by turn 3-4, but it was more like 4 power max on Vengevine backed up by about two or three other creatures with 2-3 power. I'm pretty sure I was swinging lethal by turn 4 like clockwork even through hate cards simply because the locals who played modern never saw anything like dredge before at the time.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Either way the more I dwell on it, the less I want to play against these decks. So just play Storm, and play mostly by myself.
Good times.
Spirits
Nimble Obstructionist has helped on this front immensely. It's a versatile card that lets you play control well, and also helps with quickly turning the corner into killing the opponent.
That must be why it shows up in 20 out of 4352 decks listed on MTG Top 8 under any category (Major, Professional, Competitive, Regular) since Hour was released. That's 0.4% of Modern decks. Personally, I think the card is trash because it should have its counter ability as an ETB, not when you cycle. Cycling should have just been a bonus option for U or 1U. Instead, they played it super safe and made another fairly bad tempo card that isn't even seeing Standard play (8 of 2818 decks). If I'm running a 3 drop flying flash threat, I want it to be Clique or Queller, or something that does anything of value when it enters.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Isn't that what twin did?
The fetch-based lands regularly dealt the player 3-6 damage every game (sometimes more with the need for both UUU and RR), which is much different than pain-free rainbow lands that act as free counterspells too. What interaction did Twin invalidate? If anything, it promoted interaction by being weak to every form of maindeck answer: discard, creature removal, and counterspells.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I get that you're in the moros zone, and I feel you, but boy howdy if you do pickup Storm are you in for a suprise. Sure game 1 against a bunch of things you can goldfish on your own but that's about it. There's so much Storm hate kicking around that you have to and infact enjoy playing through hard counters to get anywhere with the deck.
Storm 9 months ago could mostly do what it wanted much like Shadow. Things are not the same now.
Also if you really like Vengevine, have you looked at H0ly's angry garden list? It might be too aggro for you but it's an amusing deck to play.
Modern: Storm
Legacy: ANT