the humans deck is broken in the sense that it breaks one of the most important aspects of magic, you need to choose a color to gain access to certain effects, and normally, if you splash a color, it comes with a downside (for example, be color screwed), but this doesnt happen to humans. you can choose anything and painfree, cause your manabase is PERFECT, and, with the philosophy of WOTC, everyset you have more and more powerful humans to feed the deck, and you dont even care what are the colors of such creatures. it's hilarious
(english is not my language, so sorry for any mistakes)
Agreed! Probably a good move to ban Cavern of Souls at this time and also provide a much earlier solution to mana abusive decks as Field of Ruin is just 1 turn too slow. Also would like to see Chalice of the Void banned if they do end up banning Cavern of Souls.
ban chalice? Really? Why? Because modern has not enough fast creaturebased Decks? Ore not enough Decks like storm, kci and big tron?
I don't think they will ban Cavern of Souls. One of the most played archetypes in Magic is Tribal. There are plenty of tier 2 tribal decks in Elves, Merfolk, Eldrazi, Spirits, Humans (who is tier 1). There are also a ton of tier 3 and lesser tribal strategies that might get hosed by this like Allies, Slivers, and many more (been brewing Rats, Fungus, and Minotaurs).
It is a good card and necessary color fixing with great utility. Unclaimed Territory is good, but that utility is important to fight against control. I can understand the frustration for control with Aether Vial and Cavern negating one line of their attack. However, from a tribal aggro perspective, we need synergy to do our thing and your removal heavy nature combined with board wipes already does enough to hurt our game plan quite a bit.
well approaching a certain meta share is quite a bit different from having it. at this point the deck is merely popular and good, which translates to respectable results. unless there is some evidence that it is well above the 10% mark, its just one of many that float around in that 5-10 range; which is the norm.
reducing diversity is bogus. there will always be an objectively best versions of particular types of decks. two of the other most popular decks right now are aggro, and the various other tribal decks like slivers, allies, spirits, etc arent being pushed out but rather have their own glaring weaknesses that keep them from the top ranks. the same can be said for Wx death and taxes, which is loosely related to humans; but still just worse.
its the same thing as with the twin ban. it was the best version of URx decks, but when it went away its not like all these other decks magically sprung up to take its place. so the options are either to have one of the decks as tier 1 with everyone else below, or just have a bunch of non-tier 1 decks. the latter option seems just like 'well if my deck cant be tier 1, then no deck similar to mine should be able to'.
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I'm usually not a fan of bans and would much rather see unbans in Modern, yet I think that 5c Humans needs a ban (that specifically targets that deck and doesn't hurt other creature and/or tribal decks) and my reasoning is as follows:
A deck being "fair" (as in: Not a Combo deck) is irrevelant. Any "tier 1" (aka very popular and successful) should receive a ban if either of 2 criteria is fulfilled:
1. It has an oppressive metagame-share (think Modern Jund around the release of Return to Ravnica) that is unlikely to go down anytime soon, or
2. it severely reduces diversity by easily being the "strongest" deck and therefore "best" choice (in a fairly "open" meta) among decks of a similar archetype.
5c Humans is starting to approach the first criteria while certainly fulfilling the second criteria (it simply is the "best" Tribal deck and the best "non-prison" "fair" creature deck in Modern, squeezing more and more other Tribal and "fair" deck choices out of the meta).
Add to this that Humans is the most printed creature type in the history of Magic and the fact that this isn't going to chance anytime soon and you can easily come to the conclusion that the Humans deck is likely to see more powerful potential additions to its Tribal synergies and auxiliary cards than almost any other tribe in the future (how often, for example, are you going to see hyper-powerful Ally, Sliver, Merfolk or Goblin cards compared to powerful Humans ?).
To reduce the power of the 5c Humans deck, I would recommend banning one of their more powerful auxiliary cards while leaving their Tribal synergies (aka "pay-off"-cards for playing Humans like Champion of the Parish and Thalia's Lieutenant) and other strong Tribal cards that can also help other tribes (like Cavern of Souls) intact.
My potential ban targets would therefore be Meddling Mage (increasing 5c Humans' weakness to Combo and Control, a weakness that almost all "fair" creature decks share) and Kitesail Freebooter (decreasing the early-game disruptiveness of the Humans deck).
Humans has only pushed out one viable tribe in Merfolk. Elves remains viable. Slivers, Goblins, Faeries, etc. and all the other tribal decks were not viable even before Humans. So on that count, Humans has not truly reduced diversity. What other decks did Humans allegedly push out besides Merfolk?
Its metagame share has also not reached levels seen in previous bans, which could change at GP Vegas. I also don't know its true MTGO share, which could be worryingly high but we simply can't see it. For Humans to be bannable under the current paradigm of Modern management, we would probably need to see sustained levels for the rest of 2018. A 2+ Humans T8 at Vegas would need to be the start of that trend, and even then, I still don't think Wizards would care. Humans had only 1 T8 pilot at GP Hartford and 0 at GP Phoenix. Its MTGO Challenge/PTQ appearance rate in the T32 also does not approach the levels of previously banned decks.
Humans has only pushed out one viable tribe in Merfolk. Elves remains viable. Slivers, Goblins, Faeries, etc. and all the other tribal decks were not viable even before Humans. So on that count, Humans has not truly reduced diversity. What other decks did Humans allegedly push out besides Merfolk?
It's interesting to interpret what it means to supplant or push out decks. As tronix mentioned above about URx and Twin, it's not like it was ever actually pushing anything out, they were just ok/mediocre/bad to begin with and Twin was actually good. The same is true for Humans. Merfolk, Faeries, Gobbos, Slivers... What have those decks ever been, but Tier 2-3? Even Merfolk, the "best" of the tribes, has spent nearly the entirety of its life bobbing and weaving through Tier 2.
We can draw two conclusions from the comparison: Either Humans is fine, because it's not actually pushing out decks that were competitively viable anyway. Or Humans is supplanting and pushing out all these other decks, the same way Twin supposedly was, and is a factor in considering a ban.
Humans has already had a fairly large metagame presence for quite a while (and probably worse based on the unedited, unfiltered GP/MTGO data that WOTC has access to), so all it takes is a few T8 placements and a win or two and a ban is completely justifiable based on past actions. Do I think Humans should be banned? No. I'd rather other cards be unbanned to help bring up the power of other decks, rather than neuter what is a fairly interesting and overall fair deck that fights on an axis that is mostly easy to interact with.
I dont think Human's is even remotely in need of a ban, nothing is. When the meta leaned towards Humans, decks came out and took advantage. Thats just 'working as intended'.
I dont think Human's is even remotely in need of a ban, nothing is. When the meta leaned towards Humans, decks came out and took advantage. Thats just 'working as intended'.
Yeah, me neither. I just think "pushing out other decks" is still as ridiculous as it was when it was a defense for the Twin ban. Other than very rare cases, if a deck is not successful, it's usually because it's not good enough to stand on its own. Not because another option is better. Removing the better option does not make the other decks better, as we saw from 2+ years of UR misery. Just like removing Humans doesn't suddenly make Merfolk better.
I dont think Human's is even remotely in need of a ban, nothing is. When the meta leaned towards Humans, decks came out and took advantage. Thats just 'working as intended'.
Yeah, me neither. I just think "pushing out other decks" is still as ridiculous as it was when it was a defense for the Twin ban. Other than very rare cases, if a deck is not successful, it's usually because it's not good enough to stand on its own. Not because another option is better. Removing the better option does not make the other decks better, as we saw from 2+ years of UR misery. Just like removing Humans doesn't suddenly make Merfolk better.
Yeah, do we have any real examples of this actually taking place? I highly doubt it.
twin was a similar case, but not exactly a perfect comparison because the decks that did play twin and those that didnt were playing mostly the same stuff with around a 10 card difference. whereas humans and a deck like merfolk may be playing on the same axis, but the decks play barely any of the same cards.
a lot this encroaches on the grey area that is 'viability'. for instance you CAN choose to pick up merfolk, master it, and still do fine in most settings; however given any option its a smarter choice to pick up humans. the same goes for a deck like mono-u tron. sure you can play it, but a player is better served picking up a green variant based off of most any metric.
humans is an aggro deck, a vial deck, a go wide tribal deck, and a thalia (taxes) deck. given its level of success does that mean that anyone looking to play ANY of those types of decks should be playing humans if their smart? does that count as reducing diversity? color me dubious.
it'd be far more clear cut if humans was dominating the aggro archetype, but it isnt. therefore given all the ambiguity we might as well turn to the stuff that is observable like if its winning too much; which so far it hasnt been.
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I tend to agree with @cfusionpm here, but I guess we will wait for GP Vegas as well. If Humans makes more than a copy into the T8 or more than 3 copies into the T16, or more than 7/32 decks, the deck will be up for a serious consideration for a banning.
Judging from the Twin ban, and from past WOTC actions, I would certainly feel very nervous for my deck if I was a Human player.
I would rather have 2+ unbans in 2019 though, and no bans at all!
I still don't think it would be in the crosshairs based on Vegas. Its Phoenix and Hartford performance just wasn't too impressive. It did do well at the PT, however. Unless Wizards has additional behind the scene info, then the performance isn't even at Twin levels yet. I suspect 2+ T8 showings would put it on a serious watch list though.
Elves is and was much better off in a non-Twin landscape. It climbed and was a perennial tier 2 competitor in Eldrazi Winter and afterwords. It is a solid choice right now and generally puts a copy whether GW or GB in the non-top 8 section of most tournaments.
It did spike during Twin's end, but it wasn't a Tier 2 deck or just barely tier 2 during that time period.
Elves is and was much better off in a non-Twin landscape. It climbed and was a perennial tier 2 competitor in Eldrazi Winter and afterwords. It is a solid choice right now and generally puts a copy whether GW or GB in the non-top 8 section of most tournaments.
It did spike during Twin's end, but it wasn't a Tier 2 deck or just barely tier 2 during that time period.
I really can't imagine that the Humans matchup is any better than the Twin Match up for Elves. There's just too many fliers, potentially 8 meddling mage effects, and Champ/Lieutenant beats to worry about. If anything, I'd imagine that the environment got slightly more hostile to Elves since sweepers are way more critical for most decks now, with Humans acting as the boogeyman right now.
yeah but this is more about decks that are similar. the existence of the twin combo did a lot of things to the format, making some decks worse and some decks better. thats just the nature of any good deck. if we go down the rabbit hole of considering X deck being good against Y deck, then when X deck is popular Y deck gets shoved aside; then we are just discussing what a metagame is.
for the twin and humans comparison specifically though is that twin was a deck that basically could never be dethroned. if a decks bad matchups arent really bad and it starts to get close to that 50/50 mark, then thats it; its locked into place. which is what leads to the whole format 'pillars' situation.
the elves example for instance. elves is great against humans, probably on par with jeskai if not better. so people bring elves to fight the human menace, but that is only feeding jeskai's share. if this happens to a large enough degree, then it cascades to a point where a few decks are covering eachothers weaknesses so completely that they lock themselves at the top of the format. thus becoming pillars.
fortunately, or unfortunately depending on your perspective, the format isnt even remotely close to that and humans hasnt shown itself to be good enough to indicate things are moving in that direction.
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For what it's worth, Elves is very good vs. Humans. It just usually isn't much better against other matchups where Humans shines or has a 50/50 shot. That's where Elves fails in my opinion. I would consider running it myself at the GP, but I feel that the diversity of the format won't really allow me to do as well as I plan to with Elves as my deck. Also, there are some variations to consider - GB Elves, GW Elves, Mono Green Elves, and even Junk Elves. There are slight differences among them, although there are WAY more similarities, so I understand the lumping of them.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
yet wizards has shown they use this sort of faulty logic. the equal opportunity philosophy just leads to a whole lot of mediocre decks with too many weaknesses to cover. they just fail to realize how fickle competitive gamers are. decks going from being labeled tier 1 to unplayable in a span of six months is the byproduct.
they even went so far as to limit data to curb this effect, but this doesnt stop pistolpete420 or whoever else from looking at mtggoldfish, seeing humans on top, then posting on reddit about its banning potential. thats just the world we live in now.
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WotC seems to feel that countermagic, small mana spell decks and combo are "unfun". Yet, mindless sorcery tap and slap is very exciting.
Unban everything and spare me the bull*****. WotC is going to continue to print creatures irresponsibly and then follow that up with making creature based decks the most viable strategty.
Im seeing 20+ creatures in a majority of lists. Thats not diversity. Just seems like wotc telling me what i can and cannot play, which is the exact reason i steer clear of standard.
Really look at these matches and tell me why i shouldnt get to cancel a creature. Prove to me why tribal Needs cavern and not just aether vial? Then after your weak, baseless argument (have your cake and eat it too), you will start wailing about blood moon.
My wife can win matches with the human deck and she barely understands how the game works.
I have no problem with people playing tap and slap as long as i can interact with it. But my tools keep getting taken away (*****ty counters, *****ty draw) and creatures keep getting better effects built in than mpst spells and slapped in uncounterable shells.
Ban Cavern or unban everything. Id prefer the latter but this linear tap and slap is getting boring.
I am a long time casual player. My group play "modern plus" and "real cards-ish" meaning that you can proxy something without going silly (in line with wotc policy) and modern is preferred but just don't be silly if you run legacy cards. We have been having some issues getting together lately and I was thinking of playing some 'modern nights' at my local store. In order to so I need to become fully complaint with the rules and the cards.
There are two massive obstacles (as I see it) that I would like to state. Yes I am a novice in comparison, but I would my voice is probably under-represented in this thread. Anyway...
1) I do not like coming across fun cards that are not modern legal, when there doesn't seem to be any power issue. To give an example (and I have been told I am a "Johnny") I really like druids and built a deck around them. Of course I had to include Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury. I would doubt anyone would claim that this card is overpowered (or would even be used) in Modern. Having paid for it, I find it frustrating that I cannot use it. Yes I get it was a commander print, but I really feel that modern should encompass recent MTG cards unless there is a compelling reason not to.
2) The dollar-cost of good land. I feel like I am effectively being railroaded into a mono deck. My entire deck would end up being is around $138. Add some good land in order to be able to fully use the colours, and it is now $408. I honestly find it insulting to want to compete (already at a disadvantage given I am a newcomer) and be expected to lay that out.
Overall I am leaning towards giving up the idea. It really makes the hobby feel "unaccessible" for someone wanting to get into it.
I am a long time casual player. My group play "modern plus" and "real cards-ish" meaning that you can proxy something without going silly (in line with wotc policy) and modern is preferred but just don't be silly if you run legacy cards. We have been having some issues getting together lately and I was thinking of playing some 'modern nights' at my local store. In order to so I need to become fully complaint with the rules and the cards.
There are two massive obstacles (as I see it) that I would like to state. Yes I am a novice in comparison, but I would my voice is probably under-represented in this thread. Anyway...
1) I do not like coming across fun cards that are not modern legal, when there doesn't seem to be any power issue. To give an example (and I have been told I am a "Johnny") I really like druids and built a deck around them. Of course I had to include Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury. I would doubt anyone would claim that this card is overpowered (or would even be used) in Modern. Having paid for it, I find it frustrating that I cannot use it. Yes I get it was a commander print, but I really feel that modern should encompass recent MTG cards unless there is a compelling reason not to.
2) The dollar-cost of good land. I feel like I am effectively being railroaded into a mono deck. My entire deck would end up being is around $138. Add some good land in order to be able to fully use the colours, and it is now $408. I honestly find it insulting to want to compete (already at a disadvantage given I am a newcomer) and be expected to lay that out.
Overall I am leaning towards giving up the idea. It really makes the hobby feel "unaccessible" for someone wanting to get into it.
Thanks for listening to my whine...
Play pauper. Modern is very expensive and although the idea was initially to allow players to brew, wotc has completely railroaded the format and taken complete control.
Most games of modern are played out at sorcery speed and tbe result seems predetermined.
If you want to have fun brewing, play a format where you are competing against your opponent and not just their deck, then I would recommend pauper.
The matches ive played in pauper take 10x more thought and leave open a ton of choices and lines of play. Modern was amazing in the beginning, then it got controlled and lost its way.
Play pauper. It ticks all the boxes and makes you feel like you are actually playing magic.
I am a long time casual player. My group play "modern plus" and "real cards-ish" meaning that you can proxy something without going silly (in line with wotc policy) and modern is preferred but just don't be silly if you run legacy cards. We have been having some issues getting together lately and I was thinking of playing some 'modern nights' at my local store. In order to so I need to become fully complaint with the rules and the cards.
There are two massive obstacles (as I see it) that I would like to state. Yes I am a novice in comparison, but I would my voice is probably under-represented in this thread. Anyway...
1) I do not like coming across fun cards that are not modern legal, when there doesn't seem to be any power issue. To give an example (and I have been told I am a "Johnny") I really like druids and built a deck around them. Of course I had to include Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury. I would doubt anyone would claim that this card is overpowered (or would even be used) in Modern. Having paid for it, I find it frustrating that I cannot use it. Yes I get it was a commander print, but I really feel that modern should encompass recent MTG cards unless there is a compelling reason not to.
2) The dollar-cost of good land. I feel like I am effectively being railroaded into a mono deck. My entire deck would end up being is around $138. Add some good land in order to be able to fully use the colours, and it is now $408. I honestly find it insulting to want to compete (already at a disadvantage given I am a newcomer) and be expected to lay that out.
Overall I am leaning towards giving up the idea. It really makes the hobby feel "unaccessible" for someone wanting to get into it.
Thanks for listening to my whine...
Play pauper. Modern is very expensive and although the idea was initially to allow players to brew, wotc has completely railroaded the format and taken complete control.
Most games of modern are played out at sorcery speed and tbe result seems predetermined.
If you want to have fun brewing, play a format where you are competing against your opponent and not just their deck, then I would recommend pauper.
The matches ive played in pauper take 10x more thought and leave open a ton of choices and lines of play. Modern was amazing in the beginning, then it got controlled and lost its way.
Play pauper. It ticks all the boxes and makes you feel like you are actually playing magic.
Thank you I do appreciate the response
I just had a look and it seems interesting
I just had a look at my local store and they don't appear to play it. I was mostly in for the social interaction anyway.
Banning an innocuous card like Meddling Mage will only make Modern's problem bigger.
Modern's power level has risen very much during this past 3 years, so much that 4-5 cards would be literally fine in Modern.
Cards like SFM, Twin, Preordain, GSZ, Punishing Fire. They need to test those cards.
If not, Cavern Of Souls and Ancient Stirrings are great paradoxes by being legal and if there are two cards that need banning, are exactly those two. Ancient Stirrings in particular would be fine if Preordain was legal.
Regarding bans, those two would be the ones that would make sense in both Humans and in Lantern/Tron/KCI/Bloom/etc.
Everything else seems like a joke.
the metagame is finite. any deck that is relatively new and proves to be powerful/good has to carve out a space somehow. pinpointing these decks as an issue, without any evidence that they are winning too much, is just aversion to change more than anything else. jund flip flopping like it did was because of hype, and the community's penchant for duping themselves. one moment all the pros are playing it and people are worried about damping sphere making 'the obvious best deck even better', now jund is just a roleplayer with sphere doing absolutely nothing for the deck.
re: modern legal cards, and card availability
i think it'd be nice if a some of the more tame and interesting cards from supplementary products were legal. also i believe their is a decently sized chunk of players who think there are cards from sets prior to 8th edition that could benefit the format, but are slightly too strong to be reprinted in the standard sets of today. for this to change wizards either has to use a specific product line to introduce cards such as modern masters, or just cherry pick cards and arbitrarily proclaim their legality. either doesnt seem outlandish nor difficult to recognize, yet wizards has been hesitant to take that step.
card prices suck. there should be more reprints. lands happen to be ubiquitous. couple low supply with high demand because modern is extremely popular (partially due to standards lack of success). a stupid situation to be in, but isn't really saying anything about modern's 'health', balance, or whatever you want to call it. though im sure most everyone would feel much better about things if the price barrier was lower (which isnt the same as being gone).
re: pauper
ive heard great things about the format, but dont forget that many of the formats 'charms' only exist because it isnt a large tournament format; and therefore less competitive. i can guarantee you that if it was more competitive the format would converge on a few broken strategies. that feeling of 'playing magic' looks flimsy in the face of getting pounded relentlessly by decks like Ux delver and boros monarch, one of which is playing legacy/vintage level blue spells and the other a mechanic from a specialized draft set (thus not being balanced in the slightest). by all accounts EDH is the same way. when people are too tryhard about it any 'fun' goes up in a puff of smoke.
but hey, if you think modern sucks, then not spending time on it make sense. id just rather not see a disingenuous picture painted with claims that that have zero evidence to back them up.
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Yet the most popular pauper deck according to mtgtop8 is Mono Green. Spouting off opinions is fine, but acting like yours are based on more facts than anyone elses is just ignorant. Typical though.
Having legacy level draw spells doesnt have the same effect when you cant draw into cards that end the game single handedly. Without having any experience with the format, how can you give an honest assesment?
Plenty of people show up with Skred Delver and Monarch and Green... and many people show up with brews. The most importanr thing is that the decks have enough air in them to allow players to outplay their opponents.
MTG modern and standard is becomming a lot more like Hearthstone. Rock Paper Scissors deck based games. When you remove ways to interact with people (ie cavern of souls) you take the air out of the game.
I realize most people dont care to have to plan things out, or sculpt a turn or prevent an opponent from executing their strategy. But if MTG keeps going the way of Tap and Slap then players are gonna keep flocking from format to format.
Modern got so popular because of this. Now Pauper will be the new Modern. Then WotC will F that up. Mr. Rosewater and the other kool-aid drinkers need to stop telling people how to play. Stop making the game so that mythic permanents can easily hit the board. Stop.
Just unban everything or Ban Cavern. I like the stirrings ban idea too. Anything to limit braindead decks slapping ***** out.
I realize most people dont care to have to plan things out, or sculpt a turn or prevent an opponent from executing their strategy. But if MTG keeps going the way of Tap and Slap then players are gonna keep flocking from format to format.
This line of thinking has two problems. First, it suggests there is a "right" way to play Magic. That hasn't been true since Alpha and it definitely isn't true now. Modern's appeal is that you can play Magic how you want to play Magic. Want to play a creature-based aggro deck? You can do that. Want to slam giant threats? You can do that too. Assemble a 2-3 card combo? Get an engine combo going? Disrupt an opponent while protecting the queen? Play no creatures and lock them out of the game with prison elements or one-for-one/two-for-one removal? You can do all of that. This is why Modern is so popular; it allows players to choose how they enjoy competitive Magic. Fair, interactive Magic is certainly a part of that, your post (especially the very biased bit about Cavern) suggests that you place an inordinate value on a particular kind of fair and interactive Magic: one with counterspells. This is not the only acceptable way to play Magic, nor is it the most virtuous/valued way to play.
Just unban everything or Ban Cavern. I like the stirrings ban idea too. Anything to limit braindead decks slapping ***** out.
When the choice is presented as "unban everything" or "ban Cavern," it just reeks of bias towards a specific kind of countermagic-heavy gameplay. This gets at what I was saying earlier about your post coming across as touting a specific kind of Magic as the best or the "proper" kind. Modern is so popular because it does not make that judgment. If you really feel that blue-based, countermagic-heavy games are the best kind of Magic, then Legacy is probably the format for you. If you want to play what you want and how you want, acknowledging that there isn't an established best option, then it's Modern.
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It is a good card and necessary color fixing with great utility. Unclaimed Territory is good, but that utility is important to fight against control. I can understand the frustration for control with Aether Vial and Cavern negating one line of their attack. However, from a tribal aggro perspective, we need synergy to do our thing and your removal heavy nature combined with board wipes already does enough to hurt our game plan quite a bit.
reducing diversity is bogus. there will always be an objectively best versions of particular types of decks. two of the other most popular decks right now are aggro, and the various other tribal decks like slivers, allies, spirits, etc arent being pushed out but rather have their own glaring weaknesses that keep them from the top ranks. the same can be said for Wx death and taxes, which is loosely related to humans; but still just worse.
its the same thing as with the twin ban. it was the best version of URx decks, but when it went away its not like all these other decks magically sprung up to take its place. so the options are either to have one of the decks as tier 1 with everyone else below, or just have a bunch of non-tier 1 decks. the latter option seems just like 'well if my deck cant be tier 1, then no deck similar to mine should be able to'.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Humans has only pushed out one viable tribe in Merfolk. Elves remains viable. Slivers, Goblins, Faeries, etc. and all the other tribal decks were not viable even before Humans. So on that count, Humans has not truly reduced diversity. What other decks did Humans allegedly push out besides Merfolk?
Its metagame share has also not reached levels seen in previous bans, which could change at GP Vegas. I also don't know its true MTGO share, which could be worryingly high but we simply can't see it. For Humans to be bannable under the current paradigm of Modern management, we would probably need to see sustained levels for the rest of 2018. A 2+ Humans T8 at Vegas would need to be the start of that trend, and even then, I still don't think Wizards would care. Humans had only 1 T8 pilot at GP Hartford and 0 at GP Phoenix. Its MTGO Challenge/PTQ appearance rate in the T32 also does not approach the levels of previously banned decks.
It's interesting to interpret what it means to supplant or push out decks. As tronix mentioned above about URx and Twin, it's not like it was ever actually pushing anything out, they were just ok/mediocre/bad to begin with and Twin was actually good. The same is true for Humans. Merfolk, Faeries, Gobbos, Slivers... What have those decks ever been, but Tier 2-3? Even Merfolk, the "best" of the tribes, has spent nearly the entirety of its life bobbing and weaving through Tier 2.
We can draw two conclusions from the comparison: Either Humans is fine, because it's not actually pushing out decks that were competitively viable anyway. Or Humans is supplanting and pushing out all these other decks, the same way Twin supposedly was, and is a factor in considering a ban.
Humans has already had a fairly large metagame presence for quite a while (and probably worse based on the unedited, unfiltered GP/MTGO data that WOTC has access to), so all it takes is a few T8 placements and a win or two and a ban is completely justifiable based on past actions. Do I think Humans should be banned? No. I'd rather other cards be unbanned to help bring up the power of other decks, rather than neuter what is a fairly interesting and overall fair deck that fights on an axis that is mostly easy to interact with.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Spirits
Yeah, me neither. I just think "pushing out other decks" is still as ridiculous as it was when it was a defense for the Twin ban. Other than very rare cases, if a deck is not successful, it's usually because it's not good enough to stand on its own. Not because another option is better. Removing the better option does not make the other decks better, as we saw from 2+ years of UR misery. Just like removing Humans doesn't suddenly make Merfolk better.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Yeah, do we have any real examples of this actually taking place? I highly doubt it.
Spirits
a lot this encroaches on the grey area that is 'viability'. for instance you CAN choose to pick up merfolk, master it, and still do fine in most settings; however given any option its a smarter choice to pick up humans. the same goes for a deck like mono-u tron. sure you can play it, but a player is better served picking up a green variant based off of most any metric.
humans is an aggro deck, a vial deck, a go wide tribal deck, and a thalia (taxes) deck. given its level of success does that mean that anyone looking to play ANY of those types of decks should be playing humans if their smart? does that count as reducing diversity? color me dubious.
it'd be far more clear cut if humans was dominating the aggro archetype, but it isnt. therefore given all the ambiguity we might as well turn to the stuff that is observable like if its winning too much; which so far it hasnt been.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I still don't think it would be in the crosshairs based on Vegas. Its Phoenix and Hartford performance just wasn't too impressive. It did do well at the PT, however. Unless Wizards has additional behind the scene info, then the performance isn't even at Twin levels yet. I suspect 2+ T8 showings would put it on a serious watch list though.
Elves is and was much better off in a non-Twin landscape. It climbed and was a perennial tier 2 competitor in Eldrazi Winter and afterwords. It is a solid choice right now and generally puts a copy whether GW or GB in the non-top 8 section of most tournaments.
It did spike during Twin's end, but it wasn't a Tier 2 deck or just barely tier 2 during that time period.
I really can't imagine that the Humans matchup is any better than the Twin Match up for Elves. There's just too many fliers, potentially 8 meddling mage effects, and Champ/Lieutenant beats to worry about. If anything, I'd imagine that the environment got slightly more hostile to Elves since sweepers are way more critical for most decks now, with Humans acting as the boogeyman right now.
for the twin and humans comparison specifically though is that twin was a deck that basically could never be dethroned. if a decks bad matchups arent really bad and it starts to get close to that 50/50 mark, then thats it; its locked into place. which is what leads to the whole format 'pillars' situation.
the elves example for instance. elves is great against humans, probably on par with jeskai if not better. so people bring elves to fight the human menace, but that is only feeding jeskai's share. if this happens to a large enough degree, then it cascades to a point where a few decks are covering eachothers weaknesses so completely that they lock themselves at the top of the format. thus becoming pillars.
fortunately, or unfortunately depending on your perspective, the format isnt even remotely close to that and humans hasnt shown itself to be good enough to indicate things are moving in that direction.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Who do we blame for Zoo being tier 3?
Is Humans pushing out Mindcrank combo?
Bad decks are bad. It's not the fault of good decks that bad decks are bad.
Someone feel free to change my mind, but I'm not buying this.
Spirits
they even went so far as to limit data to curb this effect, but this doesnt stop pistolpete420 or whoever else from looking at mtggoldfish, seeing humans on top, then posting on reddit about its banning potential. thats just the world we live in now.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Unban everything and spare me the bull*****. WotC is going to continue to print creatures irresponsibly and then follow that up with making creature based decks the most viable strategty.
Im seeing 20+ creatures in a majority of lists. Thats not diversity. Just seems like wotc telling me what i can and cannot play, which is the exact reason i steer clear of standard.
Really look at these matches and tell me why i shouldnt get to cancel a creature. Prove to me why tribal Needs cavern and not just aether vial? Then after your weak, baseless argument (have your cake and eat it too), you will start wailing about blood moon.
My wife can win matches with the human deck and she barely understands how the game works.
I have no problem with people playing tap and slap as long as i can interact with it. But my tools keep getting taken away (*****ty counters, *****ty draw) and creatures keep getting better effects built in than mpst spells and slapped in uncounterable shells.
Ban Cavern or unban everything. Id prefer the latter but this linear tap and slap is getting boring.
I am a long time casual player. My group play "modern plus" and "real cards-ish" meaning that you can proxy something without going silly (in line with wotc policy) and modern is preferred but just don't be silly if you run legacy cards. We have been having some issues getting together lately and I was thinking of playing some 'modern nights' at my local store. In order to so I need to become fully complaint with the rules and the cards.
There are two massive obstacles (as I see it) that I would like to state. Yes I am a novice in comparison, but I would my voice is probably under-represented in this thread. Anyway...
1) I do not like coming across fun cards that are not modern legal, when there doesn't seem to be any power issue. To give an example (and I have been told I am a "Johnny") I really like druids and built a deck around them. Of course I had to include Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury. I would doubt anyone would claim that this card is overpowered (or would even be used) in Modern. Having paid for it, I find it frustrating that I cannot use it. Yes I get it was a commander print, but I really feel that modern should encompass recent MTG cards unless there is a compelling reason not to.
2) The dollar-cost of good land. I feel like I am effectively being railroaded into a mono deck. My entire deck would end up being is around $138. Add some good land in order to be able to fully use the colours, and it is now $408. I honestly find it insulting to want to compete (already at a disadvantage given I am a newcomer) and be expected to lay that out.
Overall I am leaning towards giving up the idea. It really makes the hobby feel "unaccessible" for someone wanting to get into it.
Thanks for listening to my whine...
Play pauper. Modern is very expensive and although the idea was initially to allow players to brew, wotc has completely railroaded the format and taken complete control.
Most games of modern are played out at sorcery speed and tbe result seems predetermined.
If you want to have fun brewing, play a format where you are competing against your opponent and not just their deck, then I would recommend pauper.
The matches ive played in pauper take 10x more thought and leave open a ton of choices and lines of play. Modern was amazing in the beginning, then it got controlled and lost its way.
Play pauper. It ticks all the boxes and makes you feel like you are actually playing magic.
Thank you I do appreciate the response
I just had a look and it seems interesting
I just had a look at my local store and they don't appear to play it. I was mostly in for the social interaction anyway.
Cheers.
Agreed
the metagame is finite. any deck that is relatively new and proves to be powerful/good has to carve out a space somehow. pinpointing these decks as an issue, without any evidence that they are winning too much, is just aversion to change more than anything else. jund flip flopping like it did was because of hype, and the community's penchant for duping themselves. one moment all the pros are playing it and people are worried about damping sphere making 'the obvious best deck even better', now jund is just a roleplayer with sphere doing absolutely nothing for the deck.
re: modern legal cards, and card availability
i think it'd be nice if a some of the more tame and interesting cards from supplementary products were legal. also i believe their is a decently sized chunk of players who think there are cards from sets prior to 8th edition that could benefit the format, but are slightly too strong to be reprinted in the standard sets of today. for this to change wizards either has to use a specific product line to introduce cards such as modern masters, or just cherry pick cards and arbitrarily proclaim their legality. either doesnt seem outlandish nor difficult to recognize, yet wizards has been hesitant to take that step.
card prices suck. there should be more reprints. lands happen to be ubiquitous. couple low supply with high demand because modern is extremely popular (partially due to standards lack of success). a stupid situation to be in, but isn't really saying anything about modern's 'health', balance, or whatever you want to call it. though im sure most everyone would feel much better about things if the price barrier was lower (which isnt the same as being gone).
re: pauper
ive heard great things about the format, but dont forget that many of the formats 'charms' only exist because it isnt a large tournament format; and therefore less competitive. i can guarantee you that if it was more competitive the format would converge on a few broken strategies. that feeling of 'playing magic' looks flimsy in the face of getting pounded relentlessly by decks like Ux delver and boros monarch, one of which is playing legacy/vintage level blue spells and the other a mechanic from a specialized draft set (thus not being balanced in the slightest). by all accounts EDH is the same way. when people are too tryhard about it any 'fun' goes up in a puff of smoke.
but hey, if you think modern sucks, then not spending time on it make sense. id just rather not see a disingenuous picture painted with claims that that have zero evidence to back them up.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Having legacy level draw spells doesnt have the same effect when you cant draw into cards that end the game single handedly. Without having any experience with the format, how can you give an honest assesment?
Plenty of people show up with Skred Delver and Monarch and Green... and many people show up with brews. The most importanr thing is that the decks have enough air in them to allow players to outplay their opponents.
MTG modern and standard is becomming a lot more like Hearthstone. Rock Paper Scissors deck based games. When you remove ways to interact with people (ie cavern of souls) you take the air out of the game.
I realize most people dont care to have to plan things out, or sculpt a turn or prevent an opponent from executing their strategy. But if MTG keeps going the way of Tap and Slap then players are gonna keep flocking from format to format.
Modern got so popular because of this. Now Pauper will be the new Modern. Then WotC will F that up. Mr. Rosewater and the other kool-aid drinkers need to stop telling people how to play. Stop making the game so that mythic permanents can easily hit the board. Stop.
Just unban everything or Ban Cavern. I like the stirrings ban idea too. Anything to limit braindead decks slapping ***** out.
This line of thinking has two problems. First, it suggests there is a "right" way to play Magic. That hasn't been true since Alpha and it definitely isn't true now. Modern's appeal is that you can play Magic how you want to play Magic. Want to play a creature-based aggro deck? You can do that. Want to slam giant threats? You can do that too. Assemble a 2-3 card combo? Get an engine combo going? Disrupt an opponent while protecting the queen? Play no creatures and lock them out of the game with prison elements or one-for-one/two-for-one removal? You can do all of that. This is why Modern is so popular; it allows players to choose how they enjoy competitive Magic. Fair, interactive Magic is certainly a part of that, your post (especially the very biased bit about Cavern) suggests that you place an inordinate value on a particular kind of fair and interactive Magic: one with counterspells. This is not the only acceptable way to play Magic, nor is it the most virtuous/valued way to play.
When the choice is presented as "unban everything" or "ban Cavern," it just reeks of bias towards a specific kind of countermagic-heavy gameplay. This gets at what I was saying earlier about your post coming across as touting a specific kind of Magic as the best or the "proper" kind. Modern is so popular because it does not make that judgment. If you really feel that blue-based, countermagic-heavy games are the best kind of Magic, then Legacy is probably the format for you. If you want to play what you want and how you want, acknowledging that there isn't an established best option, then it's Modern.