I think Jace fits better in decks with prison elements, be it Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge or chaining extra turns. This doesn't mean they're the best decks with Jace you could be playing in Modern.
Wait, Jace TMS doesn't sound good with Ensnaring Bridge. He stuffs your hand too full for Bridge on average. And the deck that's the least likely to +0 him, Lantern Control, is too busy Pithing Needleing Jace TMS because he draws opponents out of the Lantern-mill-rock lock.
You could pair Ensnaring Bridge with Liliana of the Veil and discard, so as you try to meet the requirements for Bridge you also empty your opponent's hand. If you add Jace to the mix, its +2 and ultimate do a similar job to the full collection of artifacts Lantern plays, and it is probably faster and easier to play, which are factors that shouldn't be overlooked among amateur players. Then you could wonder if playing so much discard, you don't need Jace at all and could be playing 8Rack; or if you could play more artifacts and use Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas as finisher; or you could just play a blue-black tap-out control deck with a few counterspells that don't fit with Bridge and more conventional creature removal instead.
However, my idea is that decks that try to not let your opponent play normally are a better home for Jace to shine than good stuff decks, where it could be just a clunky card that you need to board out in half the match-ups you play, and I believe it still applies even if the Bridge example is still unexplored or turns out to not be good enough.
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Jace is at his best when both players are out of cards and resources, so a deck that is just loads of discard and removal plus value surely suits him the best? Discard an opponents card on turn 1, cast a removal spell on their other threat, make them discard again with Liliana, then the path is clear for jace
Why would you need to add in Green? Wouldn't it be way more efficient to go straight UB, running Angler and Banana King as your finishers? The only reason I can think of would be to run LoamCrime, but that is really, really slow. Trust me, I've tried to make it work. I'm pretty convinced the way JtMS is going to work in Modern is UB tapout control. I'd say the core is more like:
UWx is sorta the 'level 1' home for jace. they can slot 2 maybe 3 into the deck to just supplement what they were doing before.
not sure how RUG decks will end up, but i know for sure some of them are just trying too much. like these As Foretold, AV, Jace, BBE, tireless tracker piles just get run over. i just like goyf running offense/defense with jace; keep it simple.
also i dont ever see UB being a thing. all the super discard heavy + jace shells ive seen havent been that impressive. i think sultai has some promise.
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UWx is sorta the 'level 1' home for jace. they can slot 2 maybe 3 into the deck to just supplement what they were doing before.
Most of the lists I've seen do well have 2 JtMS in the main and 1 in the side. It's basically just a Card Advantage engine in the deck for the late game.
not sure how RUG decks will end up, but i know for sure some of them are just trying too much. like these As Foretold, AV, Jace, BBE, tireless tracker piles just get run over. i just like goyf running offense/defense with jace; keep it simple.
I think RUG has legs, but I don't think Jace has a home in it. RUG wants to be aggressive. Jace is anything but aggressive. I think the most successful shells I've seen have a combination of mana denial, a little ramp, and fast beats. Spreading Seas, Field of Ruin, Tracker, Goyf, BBE, Bolt, Electrolyze, Izzet Charm, and some card filtering seems to work pretty good. JtMS might have a place in their sideboard, but I dunno.
also i dont ever see UB being a thing. all the super discard heavy + jace shells ive seen havent been that impressive. i think sultai has some promise.
What kind of shell are you talking about for Sultai? I've yet to see or use a successful list with Jace. Traverse Sultai is awesome, but it's usually too low to the ground for Jace. Sultai Shadow can work, but is strictly worse than Grixis or Traverse Shadow, and also too low to the ground for Jace. LoamCrime based decks just can't close the game out.
UWx is sorta the 'level 1' home for jace. they can slot 2 maybe 3 into the deck to just supplement what they were doing before.
Most of the lists I've seen do well have 2 JtMS in the main and 1 in the side. It's basically just a Card Advantage engine in the deck for the late game.
not sure how RUG decks will end up, but i know for sure some of them are just trying too much. like these As Foretold, AV, Jace, BBE, tireless tracker piles just get run over. i just like goyf running offense/defense with jace; keep it simple.
I think RUG has legs, but I don't think Jace has a home in it. RUG wants to be aggressive. Jace is anything but aggressive. I think the most successful shells I've seen have a combination of mana denial, a little ramp, and fast beats. Spreading Seas, Field of Ruin, Tracker, Goyf, BBE, Bolt, Electrolyze, Izzet Charm, and some card filtering seems to work pretty good. JtMS might have a place in their sideboard, but I dunno.
also i dont ever see UB being a thing. all the super discard heavy + jace shells ive seen havent been that impressive. i think sultai has some promise.
What kind of shell are you talking about for Sultai? I've yet to see or use a successful list with Jace. Traverse Sultai is awesome, but it's usually too low to the ground for Jace. Sultai Shadow can work, but is strictly worse than Grixis or Traverse Shadow, and also too low to the ground for Jace. LoamCrime based decks just can't close the game out.
yeah i run 2 jaces in my jeskai list. basically just value pieces. not amazing, but a welcomed upgrade.
yeah rug lists are all over the place right now. where they end up slotted in the metagame is yet to be seen. here is a pretty good example of what i was referring to:
the guy won the tournament, so i guess there has to be some merit.
as for sultai, ill admit that i havent seen any successful attempts either. so i may just be blowin smoke. what i had in mind was just a vanilla midrange shell. goyfs/scoozes/flayers/tasigur for the creature base, with 1 or 2 value snaps. push/decay/pulse/murderous cut for the removal suite. 5ish discard spells. 2-3 lilis, and 2-3 jaces. thought scours for grave fuel, and no counters main.
the more i think about it though, it might just be a worse jund. which is sorta depressing, cause if jace cant put sultai on the map im not sure what can. (Baleful Strix lulz)
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as for sultai, ill admit that i havent seen any successful attempts either. so i may just be blowin smoke. what i had in mind was just a vanilla midrange shell. goyfs/scoozes/flayers/tasigur for the creature base, with 1 or 2 value snaps. push/decay/pulse/murderous cut for the removal suite. 5ish discard spells. 2-3 lilis, and 2-3 jaces. thought scours for grave fuel, and no counters main.
the more i think about it though, it might just be a worse jund. which is sorta depressing, cause if jace cant put sultai on the map im not sure what can. (Baleful Strix lulz)
Sultai's main "trick" is card selection and digging. You get Grim Flayer, Serum Visions, Traverse the Ulvenwald, and Snapcaster. This is all backed by the targeted discard of Black and Green's efficient creatures. The best Sultai list is probably a tempo build with Flayer, Goyf, Tracker, 1-2 Tasigur, 1-2 Snapcasters, Traverse the Ulvenwald, lots of discard, and Stubborn Denial. Running a singleton Become Immense is always decent idea, too- especially if you do grab a Clique or two. The main mistake I see with Sultai lists is investing too heavily in countermagic or going to late game. It doesn't really play to the strengths of Green.
yeah i can see that working out. you sorta pointed out one of the issues in your previous post. if you are building lean, leveraging mana efficiency, you gotta ask yourself why you arent playing death shadow. once you have DS you ask yourself why you aren't playing traverse shadow or grixis DS, both of which have a better pedigree at the moment.
then if you up the curve into the midrange realm you might just be setting yourself up to be a worse jund. i think one of the prevailing issues is there arent any UB or UG specific tools that incentivize going into those color combos. there are like mill cards...and ashiok. nissa steward is seeing some play in bant lists, but thats about it.
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as for sultai, ill admit that i havent seen any successful attempts either. so i may just be blowin smoke. what i had in mind was just a vanilla midrange shell. goyfs/scoozes/flayers/tasigur for the creature base, with 1 or 2 value snaps. push/decay/pulse/murderous cut for the removal suite. 5ish discard spells. 2-3 lilis, and 2-3 jaces. thought scours for grave fuel, and no counters main.
the more i think about it though, it might just be a worse jund. which is sorta depressing, cause if jace cant put sultai on the map im not sure what can. (Baleful Strix lulz)
Sultai has 2 5-0 Daily lists, so say that there have not been any successful attempts is not entirely accurate when we do not really have much in the way of tournament results since the unbanning.
Sultai is going to be worse than Jund, and the reality of that is simply because Bloodbraid Elf is far better than Jace, the Mind Sulptor in the Modern format. I see nothing but articles on how to beat Jace. Jace this and Jace that... the real predator from these unbannings is Bloodbraid Elf and I understand that they unbanned it to act as a bit of a counterbalance to also unbanning Jace, but Jace decks are not busted even if BBE was not unbanned. Modern just has way too many ways to handle Jace in fairly efficient ways. I am willing to bet BBE is going to have to go back in the closet eventually.
That being said, Sultai is a fine deck and its strength really comes from having a solid enough MB that the SB can do some pretty oppressive things. The deck does take advantage of the Graveyard, but people trying to hate out that interaction are going to be punished by not establishing enough presence to deal with Jace because they are trying to prevent you from getting that extra value from the graveyard. Unlike Jund, you cannot just Spreading Seas the mana away and recap your plays. I do not believe Sultai is better than Jund in a few ways, but there are also ways that Jund is not better than Sultai and for that reason alone - I expect the deck to be playable.
what i meant was that i havent personally seen any sultai lists, either by playing against or other methods, that have particularly stood out as impressive.
however i agree with you that the deck has merit. which is why i said as much in a previous post. whether it has legs to become the best jace shell...well i dunno.
there is also a 4x jace 4x nahiri restore balance 5-0 daily list. whatever that means.
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Sultai has 2 5-0 Daily lists, so say that there have not been any successful attempts is not entirely accurate when we do not really have much in the way of tournament results since the unbanning.
Sultai is going to be worse than Jund, and the reality of that is simply because Bloodbraid Elf is far better than Jace, the Mind Sulptor in the Modern format. I see nothing but articles on how to beat Jace. Jace this and Jace that... the real predator from these unbannings is Bloodbraid Elf and I understand that they unbanned it to act as a bit of a counterbalance to also unbanning Jace, but Jace decks are not busted even if BBE was not unbanned. Modern just has way too many ways to handle Jace in fairly efficient ways. I am willing to bet BBE is going to have to go back in the closet eventually.
That being said, Sultai is a fine deck and its strength really comes from having a solid enough MB that the SB can do some pretty oppressive things. The deck does take advantage of the Graveyard, but people trying to hate out that interaction are going to be punished by not establishing enough presence to deal with Jace because they are trying to prevent you from getting that extra value from the graveyard. Unlike Jund, you cannot just Spreading Seas the mana away and recap your plays. I do not believe Sultai is better than Jund in a few ways, but there are also ways that Jund is not better than Sultai and for that reason alone - I expect the deck to be playable.
Yeah, I disagree. Fabiano is the Sultai guy, and if you look at his lists, they're built to basically top out at 2 cmc. I'd say that Sultai is an aggro-control deck, rather than a midrange deck. Delver really is its closest cousin, or maybe a more robust version of Infect. It's a much more specialized tool than Jund, and excels against control decks and combo decks because of its speed. It can go under those decks by having a very fast clock, reach, and some of the best interaction in Modern. It also doesn't have those games were it draws the wrong half of its deck as often. The reason that Jund is more popular is that it gets more versatile cards and a much better late game. Sultai is an archetype with growing pains, because balancing the disparate goals of the color combo is difficult.
Sultai has 2 5-0 Daily lists, so say that there have not been any successful attempts is not entirely accurate when we do not really have much in the way of tournament results since the unbanning.
Sultai is going to be worse than Jund, and the reality of that is simply because Bloodbraid Elf is far better than Jace, the Mind Sulptor in the Modern format. I see nothing but articles on how to beat Jace. Jace this and Jace that... the real predator from these unbannings is Bloodbraid Elf and I understand that they unbanned it to act as a bit of a counterbalance to also unbanning Jace, but Jace decks are not busted even if BBE was not unbanned. Modern just has way too many ways to handle Jace in fairly efficient ways. I am willing to bet BBE is going to have to go back in the closet eventually.
That being said, Sultai is a fine deck and its strength really comes from having a solid enough MB that the SB can do some pretty oppressive things. The deck does take advantage of the Graveyard, but people trying to hate out that interaction are going to be punished by not establishing enough presence to deal with Jace because they are trying to prevent you from getting that extra value from the graveyard. Unlike Jund, you cannot just Spreading Seas the mana away and recap your plays. I do not believe Sultai is better than Jund in a few ways, but there are also ways that Jund is not better than Sultai and for that reason alone - I expect the deck to be playable.
Yeah, I disagree. Fabiano is the Sultai guy, and if you look at his lists, they're built to basically top out at 2 cmc. I'd say that Sultai is an aggro-control deck, rather than a midrange deck. Delver really is its closest cousin, or maybe a more robust version of Infect. It's a much more specialized tool than Jund, and excels against control decks and combo decks because of its speed. It can go under those decks by having a very fast clock, reach, and some of the best interaction in Modern. It also doesn't have those games were it draws the wrong half of its deck as often. The reason that Jund is more popular is that it gets more versatile cards and a much better late game. Sultai is an archetype with growing pains, because balancing the disparate goals of the color combo is difficult.
Have you even looked at the 5-0 daily lists? Fabiano is not the layer of the law, and his latest list, that I am aware of, is not even from the same format where Jace is legal in Modern.
The daily lists are midrange lists. I hate to break it to you.
The deck is very Jund-like, far more than it is Delver (I am referring to the 5-0 lists). I will also add that going 5-0 in a daily is not a cake walk, especially for something like Sultai which is just now able to evaluate itself as an archetype. Some of the craziest plays I have seen so far are using Grim Flayer + Collective Brutality with access to Snapcaster Mage and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. While the current 5-0 lists do not run Grim Flayer, I am willing to bet you are going to see him start jamming the mainboard and the deck continuing a midrange plan of leveraging threats and removal into stable Jace boards.
Bringing this back to the threats title, Jace is best in decks that can deploy a board effectively via cards like Tarmogoyf, Liliana of the Veil, Scavenging Ooze - all which are at a prime with black discard spells. If that is not Jund enough for you, then idk what else is other than Jund itself.
Sultai has 2 5-0 Daily lists, so say that there have not been any successful attempts is not entirely accurate when we do not really have much in the way of tournament results since the unbanning.
Sultai is going to be worse than Jund, and the reality of that is simply because Bloodbraid Elf is far better than Jace, the Mind Sulptor in the Modern format. I see nothing but articles on how to beat Jace. Jace this and Jace that... the real predator from these unbannings is Bloodbraid Elf and I understand that they unbanned it to act as a bit of a counterbalance to also unbanning Jace, but Jace decks are not busted even if BBE was not unbanned. Modern just has way too many ways to handle Jace in fairly efficient ways. I am willing to bet BBE is going to have to go back in the closet eventually.
That being said, Sultai is a fine deck and its strength really comes from having a solid enough MB that the SB can do some pretty oppressive things. The deck does take advantage of the Graveyard, but people trying to hate out that interaction are going to be punished by not establishing enough presence to deal with Jace because they are trying to prevent you from getting that extra value from the graveyard. Unlike Jund, you cannot just Spreading Seas the mana away and recap your plays. I do not believe Sultai is better than Jund in a few ways, but there are also ways that Jund is not better than Sultai and for that reason alone - I expect the deck to be playable.
Yeah, I disagree. Fabiano is the Sultai guy, and if you look at his lists, they're built to basically top out at 2 cmc. I'd say that Sultai is an aggro-control deck, rather than a midrange deck. Delver really is its closest cousin, or maybe a more robust version of Infect. It's a much more specialized tool than Jund, and excels against control decks and combo decks because of its speed. It can go under those decks by having a very fast clock, reach, and some of the best interaction in Modern. It also doesn't have those games were it draws the wrong half of its deck as often. The reason that Jund is more popular is that it gets more versatile cards and a much better late game. Sultai is an archetype with growing pains, because balancing the disparate goals of the color combo is difficult.
Have you even looked at the 5-0 daily lists? Fabiano is not the layer of the law, and his latest list, that I am aware of, is not even from the same format where Jace is legal in Modern.
The daily lists are midrange lists. I hate to break it to you.
The deck is very Jund-like, far more than it is Delver (I am referring to the 5-0 lists). I will also add that going 5-0 in a daily is not a cake walk, especially for something like Sultai which is just now able to evaluate itself as an archetype. Some of the craziest plays I have seen so far are using Grim Flayer + Collective Brutality with access to Snapcaster Mage and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. While the current 5-0 lists do not run Grim Flayer, I am willing to bet you are going to see him start jamming the mainboard and the deck continuing a midrange plan of leveraging threats and removal into stable Jace boards.
Bringing this back to the threats title, Jace is best in decks that can deploy a board effectively via cards like Tarmogoyf, Liliana of the Veil, Scavenging Ooze - all which are at a prime with black discard spells. If that is not Jund enough for you, then idk what else is other than Jund itself.
Seeing those lists just makes me want to drop the green and go straight U/B. Ditch the dead weight in Pulse, Goyf, Tracker, and Decay for Denial, Angler, Tasigur, and more Spreading Seas. You could probably even rejig the mana base to run Field of Ruin too. I don't think green adds anything meaningful to the lists- they mostly appear to win by chaining discard/removal into Liliana, into Jace. Whatever beatsticks they use are pretty interchangeable. Decay and Pulse seem less useful than Stubborn Denial at protecting the Planeswalkers. Plus a straight UB deck would be much more reliable mana-wise.
It doesn't appear that those lists would want Grim Flayer either. With Grim Flayer, you've got to be aggressive and constantly applying pressure. If you don't, he's just a bear.
As to Fabiano not being the Sultai guy... well, have you placed higher than him with Sultai? As far as I know, he's pretty much the only pro that's made Sultai work in large tournaments.
i wouldnt discount what abrupt decay and pulse bring to the table. UB decks have historically had trouble dealing with oddball permanents
denial only really shines when you are leveraging the mana efficiency. im dubious on how often that would come up if you are looking to go more top heavy with lilis and jaces
straight UB decks havent done well in the format for various reasons. supporting that many delve threats seems challenging. jace is a nice boost in power, but color me skeptical. the mana disruption package with seas and FoR could be the missing piece, sorta like it was for UW...maybe
i wouldn't mind being proven wrong
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Jace is at his best when both players are out of cards and resources, so a deck that is just loads of discard and removal plus value surely suits him the best? Discard an opponents card on turn 1, cast a removal spell on their other threat, make them discard again with Liliana, then the path is clear for jace
While I agree that jace is better with good support, why would you play him in a heavy discard/removal shell while there is death shadow (the blue version) and BBE jund who have the game game plan (discard, removal, and beatdown when nothing left) and are just better decks.
For the Grixis shell, the Prodigy version of jace fell better because of the GY interactions that fuel the deck and make an insane value.
For Jeskai, it doesn't fit the aggressive game plan on theese colors, it's too dangerous to tap for 4 and survive next turns.
IMO the only viable shell where JTMS shine the most is the esper one. Because the esper game plan is to produce value out of your cards and you win on exhaustion. That's where tms produce the best value and can be a win con by himself.
I'm not the best blue player but that's my feelings about this card.
While I agree that jace is better with good support, why would you play him in a heavy discard/removal shell while there is death shadow (the blue version) and BBE jund who have the game game plan (discard, removal, and beatdown when nothing left) and are just better decks.
For the Grixis shell, the Prodigy version of jace fell better because of the GY interactions that fuel the deck and make an insane value.
For Jeskai, it doesn't fit the aggressive game plan on theese colors, it's too dangerous to tap for 4 and survive next turns.
IMO the only viable shell where JTMS shine the most is the esper one. Because the esper game plan is to produce value out of your cards and you win on exhaustion. That's where tms produce the best value and can be a win con by himself.
I'm not the best blue player but that's my feelings about this card.
Eh. Honestly, Esper control is very much a discard deck, though most of it comes from Esper Charm rather than the Thoughtseize/Inquisition package. The difference between Esper and UW/UB is that Esper by and large wants to operate at instant speed at all times. This makes Jace... kind of an odd duck. He's good enough in the shell though, but I don't think he'll replace Cryptic, Gearhulk, and/or WSZ as the top end. Frankly, if an Esper build was in the market for 4-mana plansewalkers, they'd probably prefer Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. That said, maybe JtMS will allow a tap out control build to be more successful. I have seen a few lists that run the Gideon of the Trials and Lingering Souls which look pretty solid.
The reason you'd run this sort of deck would be because you want to beat Death's Shadow decks and combo decks. Death's Shadow runs out of gas really fast- if you can survive to turn 6 as a control deck against Shadow, you're in the lead. A shell that supports JtMS is looking to go long and rely on answers. It's basically the worst possible matchup for Shadow.
i wouldnt discount what abrupt decay and pulse bring to the table. UB decks have historically had trouble dealing with oddball permanents
denial only really shines when you are leveraging the mana efficiency. im dubious on how often that would come up if you are looking to go more top heavy with lilis and jaces
Err, every game, I would imagine. It's a more mana efficient answer to protect the planeswalkers. 1 cmc is less than 2 cmc for most values of 1, which means that you can drop your walkers in relative safety earlier. That just seems like a straight up advantage to me, while also answering most of the same cards. I don't think it's that hard to fuel 5 delve cards with that many discard spells and cantrips. That said, if you're really that worried about it, use Thing in the Ice and Cryptic Serpent. They do pretty good impressions of the Delve critters in this sort of deck. Not perfect, but good enough. By and large this sort of deck just doesn't really care what finishers you use.
straight UB decks havent done well in the format for various reasons. supporting that many delve threats seems challenging. jace is a nice boost in power, but color me skeptical. the mana disruption package with seas and FoR could be the missing piece, sorta like it was for UW...maybe
The thing that I found is that dropping Snapcasters altogether helps a lot, actually. It's a great card, but UB is all about sorcery speed. Snapcaster wants lots of cheap instants. That's why when I use Esper, I run 4 and 2 Gearhulks.
Historically, the problem that UB had was a lack of an endgame. It used to be the optimal strategy was to shred their hand with Discard and then chain Cryptics into ridiculous value, but it's just a slow, inconsistent way to win. It didn't transition well, and Grixis Control was basically the same thing, but better. Taking a Spreading Seas/Field of Ruin package, with JtMS as an endgame is really good at locking your opponent down. You get to colorscrew them, making sure they never draw a relevant card, while beating down with Delve threats.
RUG, of what I have faced online, and its not close.
This was my inclination. I'm not sure how many times I've said this here on mtgs, but I have a sneaky feeling that something in RUG is going to be somewhat busted. I should be more specific. I mean it will be very good and Tier 1. I don't think it will warrant a ban at all though - just murder non big mana or non combo decks.
What suggestions can anyone give on this SUPER ROUGH draft that I made in 5 min?
I think once I cut the greedy cards, the deck can be more streamlined. It's super tough to think about what can hang with most of the top decks.
Why the spreading seas though? It seems like the deck would be better served in a general sense with more aggressive threats if you're worrieed about tron/valakut? What am I missing? Also do you have any opinion of the pyromancer versions of RUG?
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Why the spreading seas though? It seems like the deck would be better served in a general sense with more aggressive threats if you're worrieed about tron/valakut? What am I missing? Also do you have any opinion of the pyromancer versions of RUG?
No, you're probably correct. I would still lose to Tron - I just didn't want to autolose. I don't think Seas does much vs. Valakut in my opinion as someone who's played Valakut for a loooooong time.
No, I don't have any opinion on the Pyromancer versions of RUG.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Wait, Jace TMS doesn't sound good with Ensnaring Bridge. He stuffs your hand too full for Bridge on average. And the deck that's the least likely to +0 him, Lantern Control, is too busy Pithing Needleing Jace TMS because he draws opponents out of the Lantern-mill-rock lock.
However, my idea is that decks that try to not let your opponent play normally are a better home for Jace to shine than good stuff decks, where it could be just a clunky card that you need to board out in half the match-ups you play, and I believe it still applies even if the Bridge example is still unexplored or turns out to not be good enough.
Currently sleeved:
WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
Why would you need to add in Green? Wouldn't it be way more efficient to go straight UB, running Angler and Banana King as your finishers? The only reason I can think of would be to run LoamCrime, but that is really, really slow. Trust me, I've tried to make it work. I'm pretty convinced the way JtMS is going to work in Modern is UB tapout control. I'd say the core is more like:
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Collective Brutality
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Spreading Seas
4 Field of Ruin
not sure how RUG decks will end up, but i know for sure some of them are just trying too much. like these As Foretold, AV, Jace, BBE, tireless tracker piles just get run over. i just like goyf running offense/defense with jace; keep it simple.
also i dont ever see UB being a thing. all the super discard heavy + jace shells ive seen havent been that impressive. i think sultai has some promise.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Most of the lists I've seen do well have 2 JtMS in the main and 1 in the side. It's basically just a Card Advantage engine in the deck for the late game.
I think RUG has legs, but I don't think Jace has a home in it. RUG wants to be aggressive. Jace is anything but aggressive. I think the most successful shells I've seen have a combination of mana denial, a little ramp, and fast beats. Spreading Seas, Field of Ruin, Tracker, Goyf, BBE, Bolt, Electrolyze, Izzet Charm, and some card filtering seems to work pretty good. JtMS might have a place in their sideboard, but I dunno.
What kind of shell are you talking about for Sultai? I've yet to see or use a successful list with Jace. Traverse Sultai is awesome, but it's usually too low to the ground for Jace. Sultai Shadow can work, but is strictly worse than Grixis or Traverse Shadow, and also too low to the ground for Jace. LoamCrime based decks just can't close the game out.
yeah i run 2 jaces in my jeskai list. basically just value pieces. not amazing, but a welcomed upgrade.
yeah rug lists are all over the place right now. where they end up slotted in the metagame is yet to be seen. here is a pretty good example of what i was referring to:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=119130
the guy won the tournament, so i guess there has to be some merit.
as for sultai, ill admit that i havent seen any successful attempts either. so i may just be blowin smoke. what i had in mind was just a vanilla midrange shell. goyfs/scoozes/flayers/tasigur for the creature base, with 1 or 2 value snaps. push/decay/pulse/murderous cut for the removal suite. 5ish discard spells. 2-3 lilis, and 2-3 jaces. thought scours for grave fuel, and no counters main.
the more i think about it though, it might just be a worse jund. which is sorta depressing, cause if jace cant put sultai on the map im not sure what can. (Baleful Strix lulz)
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Sultai's main "trick" is card selection and digging. You get Grim Flayer, Serum Visions, Traverse the Ulvenwald, and Snapcaster. This is all backed by the targeted discard of Black and Green's efficient creatures. The best Sultai list is probably a tempo build with Flayer, Goyf, Tracker, 1-2 Tasigur, 1-2 Snapcasters, Traverse the Ulvenwald, lots of discard, and Stubborn Denial. Running a singleton Become Immense is always decent idea, too- especially if you do grab a Clique or two. The main mistake I see with Sultai lists is investing too heavily in countermagic or going to late game. It doesn't really play to the strengths of Green.
then if you up the curve into the midrange realm you might just be setting yourself up to be a worse jund. i think one of the prevailing issues is there arent any UB or UG specific tools that incentivize going into those color combos. there are like mill cards...and ashiok. nissa steward is seeing some play in bant lists, but thats about it.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Not too bad on a Tar Pit either.
I'm interested to see where Gfabs goes with Sultai.
David Ochoa: "Mono-bacon!..."
Sultai has 2 5-0 Daily lists, so say that there have not been any successful attempts is not entirely accurate when we do not really have much in the way of tournament results since the unbanning.
Sultai is going to be worse than Jund, and the reality of that is simply because Bloodbraid Elf is far better than Jace, the Mind Sulptor in the Modern format. I see nothing but articles on how to beat Jace. Jace this and Jace that... the real predator from these unbannings is Bloodbraid Elf and I understand that they unbanned it to act as a bit of a counterbalance to also unbanning Jace, but Jace decks are not busted even if BBE was not unbanned. Modern just has way too many ways to handle Jace in fairly efficient ways. I am willing to bet BBE is going to have to go back in the closet eventually.
That being said, Sultai is a fine deck and its strength really comes from having a solid enough MB that the SB can do some pretty oppressive things. The deck does take advantage of the Graveyard, but people trying to hate out that interaction are going to be punished by not establishing enough presence to deal with Jace because they are trying to prevent you from getting that extra value from the graveyard. Unlike Jund, you cannot just Spreading Seas the mana away and recap your plays. I do not believe Sultai is better than Jund in a few ways, but there are also ways that Jund is not better than Sultai and for that reason alone - I expect the deck to be playable.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
however i agree with you that the deck has merit. which is why i said as much in a previous post. whether it has legs to become the best jace shell...well i dunno.
there is also a 4x jace 4x nahiri restore balance 5-0 daily list. whatever that means.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)5-0 Sultai lists with JtMS? Can you link to them?
Yeah, I disagree. Fabiano is the Sultai guy, and if you look at his lists, they're built to basically top out at 2 cmc. I'd say that Sultai is an aggro-control deck, rather than a midrange deck. Delver really is its closest cousin, or maybe a more robust version of Infect. It's a much more specialized tool than Jund, and excels against control decks and combo decks because of its speed. It can go under those decks by having a very fast clock, reach, and some of the best interaction in Modern. It also doesn't have those games were it draws the wrong half of its deck as often. The reason that Jund is more popular is that it gets more versatile cards and a much better late game. Sultai is an archetype with growing pains, because balancing the disparate goals of the color combo is difficult.
Have you even looked at the 5-0 daily lists? Fabiano is not the layer of the law, and his latest list, that I am aware of, is not even from the same format where Jace is legal in Modern.
The daily lists are midrange lists. I hate to break it to you.
The deck is very Jund-like, far more than it is Delver (I am referring to the 5-0 lists). I will also add that going 5-0 in a daily is not a cake walk, especially for something like Sultai which is just now able to evaluate itself as an archetype. Some of the craziest plays I have seen so far are using Grim Flayer + Collective Brutality with access to Snapcaster Mage and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. While the current 5-0 lists do not run Grim Flayer, I am willing to bet you are going to see him start jamming the mainboard and the deck continuing a midrange plan of leveraging threats and removal into stable Jace boards.
Bringing this back to the threats title, Jace is best in decks that can deploy a board effectively via cards like Tarmogoyf, Liliana of the Veil, Scavenging Ooze - all which are at a prime with black discard spells. If that is not Jund enough for you, then idk what else is other than Jund itself.
MR_DEATHCLOUD (5-0)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Liliana of the Veil
Creature
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Sorcery
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Serum Visions
4 Thoughtseize
Instant
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Fatal Push
2 Spreading Seas
Land
2 Blooming Marsh
1 Breeding Pool
4 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
2 Ceremonious Rejection
3 Collective Brutality
2 Damnation
1 Flaying Tendrils
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
LIGHDAR (5-0)
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Liliana of the Veil
Creature
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tireless Tracker
Sorcery
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Serum Visions
4 Thoughtseize
Instant
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Fatal Push
2 Spreading Seas
Land
2 Blooming Marsh
1 Breeding Pool
4 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
2 Ceremonious Rejection
3 Collective Brutality
2 Damnation
1 Flaying Tendrils
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
Seeing those lists just makes me want to drop the green and go straight U/B. Ditch the dead weight in Pulse, Goyf, Tracker, and Decay for Denial, Angler, Tasigur, and more Spreading Seas. You could probably even rejig the mana base to run Field of Ruin too. I don't think green adds anything meaningful to the lists- they mostly appear to win by chaining discard/removal into Liliana, into Jace. Whatever beatsticks they use are pretty interchangeable. Decay and Pulse seem less useful than Stubborn Denial at protecting the Planeswalkers. Plus a straight UB deck would be much more reliable mana-wise.
It doesn't appear that those lists would want Grim Flayer either. With Grim Flayer, you've got to be aggressive and constantly applying pressure. If you don't, he's just a bear.
As to Fabiano not being the Sultai guy... well, have you placed higher than him with Sultai? As far as I know, he's pretty much the only pro that's made Sultai work in large tournaments.
denial only really shines when you are leveraging the mana efficiency. im dubious on how often that would come up if you are looking to go more top heavy with lilis and jaces
straight UB decks havent done well in the format for various reasons. supporting that many delve threats seems challenging. jace is a nice boost in power, but color me skeptical. the mana disruption package with seas and FoR could be the missing piece, sorta like it was for UW...maybe
i wouldn't mind being proven wrong
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)While I agree that jace is better with good support, why would you play him in a heavy discard/removal shell while there is death shadow (the blue version) and BBE jund who have the game game plan (discard, removal, and beatdown when nothing left) and are just better decks.
For the Grixis shell, the Prodigy version of jace fell better because of the GY interactions that fuel the deck and make an insane value.
For Jeskai, it doesn't fit the aggressive game plan on theese colors, it's too dangerous to tap for 4 and survive next turns.
IMO the only viable shell where JTMS shine the most is the esper one. Because the esper game plan is to produce value out of your cards and you win on exhaustion. That's where tms produce the best value and can be a win con by himself.
I'm not the best blue player but that's my feelings about this card.
Eh. Honestly, Esper control is very much a discard deck, though most of it comes from Esper Charm rather than the Thoughtseize/Inquisition package. The difference between Esper and UW/UB is that Esper by and large wants to operate at instant speed at all times. This makes Jace... kind of an odd duck. He's good enough in the shell though, but I don't think he'll replace Cryptic, Gearhulk, and/or WSZ as the top end. Frankly, if an Esper build was in the market for 4-mana plansewalkers, they'd probably prefer Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. That said, maybe JtMS will allow a tap out control build to be more successful. I have seen a few lists that run the Gideon of the Trials and Lingering Souls which look pretty solid.
The reason you'd run this sort of deck would be because you want to beat Death's Shadow decks and combo decks. Death's Shadow runs out of gas really fast- if you can survive to turn 6 as a control deck against Shadow, you're in the lead. A shell that supports JtMS is looking to go long and rely on answers. It's basically the worst possible matchup for Shadow.
Err, every game, I would imagine. It's a more mana efficient answer to protect the planeswalkers. 1 cmc is less than 2 cmc for most values of 1, which means that you can drop your walkers in relative safety earlier. That just seems like a straight up advantage to me, while also answering most of the same cards. I don't think it's that hard to fuel 5 delve cards with that many discard spells and cantrips. That said, if you're really that worried about it, use Thing in the Ice and Cryptic Serpent. They do pretty good impressions of the Delve critters in this sort of deck. Not perfect, but good enough. By and large this sort of deck just doesn't really care what finishers you use.
So far, this is what's worked for me:
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Gurmag Angler
Enchantment
4 Spreading Seas
Land
4 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Watery Grave
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Fetid Pools
4 Field of Ruin
3 Island
3 Swamp
4 Thought Scour
3 Stubborn Denial
3 Fatal Push
1 Victim of Night
Sorcery
2 Collective Brutality
2 Damnation
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Geth's Verdict
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Cryptic Command
2 Flaying Tendrils
The thing that I found is that dropping Snapcasters altogether helps a lot, actually. It's a great card, but UB is all about sorcery speed. Snapcaster wants lots of cheap instants. That's why when I use Esper, I run 4 and 2 Gearhulks.
Historically, the problem that UB had was a lack of an endgame. It used to be the optimal strategy was to shred their hand with Discard and then chain Cryptics into ridiculous value, but it's just a slow, inconsistent way to win. It didn't transition well, and Grixis Control was basically the same thing, but better. Taking a Spreading Seas/Field of Ruin package, with JtMS as an endgame is really good at locking your opponent down. You get to colorscrew them, making sure they never draw a relevant card, while beating down with Delve threats.
Why the spreading seas though? It seems like the deck would be better served in a general sense with more aggressive threats if you're worrieed about tron/valakut? What am I missing? Also do you have any opinion of the pyromancer versions of RUG?
UWUW ControlUW
UGWSpiritsUGW
GHardened ScalesG
WGRUKiki PodWGRU [RIP]
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)No, you're probably correct. I would still lose to Tron - I just didn't want to autolose. I don't think Seas does much vs. Valakut in my opinion as someone who's played Valakut for a loooooong time.
No, I don't have any opinion on the Pyromancer versions of RUG.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Not sure if it's actually any good haha.
UWUW ControlUW
UGWSpiritsUGW
GHardened ScalesG
WGRUKiki PodWGRU [RIP]
Sounds like a bit of a pile, speaking as one who has played many piles.
thats...not gonna work out...
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)