Sure, but you are also not getting Ulamog or World Breaker dropping Triggers on your head when you are at 2 Mana. :]
I mean I get you (side eyes Kiki...) costs mean something, but 1 vs 2 within the context of this discussion? If one REALLY needed to stop an on cast trigger, Trick Bind is perfectly sideboardable in Modern.
I'd burn those slots of my 75 on 2 or 3 Field of Ruin instead, but thats just me.
EDIT: I mean I just spent probably 6 Turns keeping up 1U, so I could Disdainful Stroke a Collected Company I knew my Knightfall opponent was sitting on. That was their only out, so..keep up the mana.
I don't think Trickbind is a good comparison to Stifle. Yes it does everything Stifle does (and a bit more) but there is a HUGE difference between something costing 1 mana, and 2 mana.
I'm not comparing it to Stifle. I'm saying if you're looking at Stifle ONLY in the interest of stopping Ulamog on-cast triggers then we already have the tools for that. Then I talked about other reasons Stifle probably wouldn't see much Modern play. Stopping 1 fetchland and not being able to follow it up with continued free/cheap denial and undercosted threats would be pretty meaningless.
I don't think Trickbind is a good comparison to Stifle. Yes it does everything Stifle does (and a bit more) but there is a HUGE difference between something costing 1 mana, and 2 mana.
I'm not comparing it to Stifle. I'm saying if you're looking at Stifle ONLY in the interest of stopping Ulamog on-cast triggers then we already have the tools for that. Then I talked about other reasons Stifle probably wouldn't see much Modern play. Stopping 1 fetchland and not being able to follow it up with continued free/cheap denial and undercosted threats would be pretty meaningless.
The reason Stifle can check cards in Legacy is that it allows Tempo decks to threaten to blow up any fetchland at instant speed, meaning they effectively trade leaving open one mana to keep their opponent also one short on mana. That reason alone would make Stifle worth considering in Ux Tempo decks, since they can trade even on tempo whereas Trickbind forces them to trade down.
Checking Eldrazi, Storm triggers, etc. just comes along with having Stifle be good maindeck material whereas Trickbind simply isn't.
That said, I don't know how much Stifle would shape the meta overall, but think about Stubborn Denial in GDS, and then consider them doing that to your lands. Ouch.
I don't think Trickbind is a good comparison to Stifle. Yes it does everything Stifle does (and a bit more) but there is a HUGE difference between something costing 1 mana, and 2 mana.
I'm not comparing it to Stifle. I'm saying if you're looking at Stifle ONLY in the interest of stopping Ulamog on-cast triggers then we already have the tools for that. Then I talked about other reasons Stifle probably wouldn't see much Modern play. Stopping 1 fetchland and not being able to follow it up with continued free/cheap denial and undercosted threats would be pretty meaningless.
The reason Stifle can check cards in Legacy is that it allows Tempo decks to threaten to blow up any fetchland at instant speed, meaning they effectively trade leaving open one mana to keep their opponent also one short on mana. That reason alone would make Stifle worth considering in Ux Tempo decks, since they can trade even on tempo whereas Trickbind forces them to trade down.
Checking Eldrazi, Storm triggers, etc. just comes along with having Stifle be good maindeck material whereas Trickbind simply isn't.
That said, I don't know how much Stifle would shape the meta overall, but think about Stubborn Denial in GDS, and then consider them doing that to your lands. Ouch.
Yeah, I'm still not comparing Stifle to Trickbind btw.
Everything else you said was just different words for what I said up until the point you thought it'd port into Modern. I don't think it would, because just 4 copies of that in your deck aren't enough to force that tempo. You also need Wasteland and Daze to capitalize on the mana denial. Much easier to Force Spike someone (even for free) when you're actively nuking their lands.
Vindicate doesn't seem like it's going to happen. It simply can't pass the Standard test no matter what Standard looks like. Its power level is way above anything else we see in Standard answers for the past 7+ years.
The other three cards are great ideas and could all reasonably pass the Standard test. Absorb and Undermine are just good 3 CMC counters, and we know Wizards is trying to print CMC 3 counters with upsides. Prohibit is actively bad in some Standard environments and would be merely strong in others. I would be surprised if we never saw these cards enter the format.
Would Stifle necessarily see that much play in Modern? It's not really played much in Legacy even though fetchlands (the optimal target) are played more frequently in Legacy than in Modern, I believe.
I'm also very skeptical about whether Undermine would see much play. Undermine's lose 3 life isn't that useful if you're not an aggressive deck, but what aggressive decks are running 3-mana counterspells? Absorb seems potentially good, but what does Undermine really go into?
Would Stifle necessarily see that much play in Modern? It's not really played much in Legacy even though fetchlands (the optimal target) are played more frequently in Legacy than in Modern, I believe.
I'm also very skeptical about whether Undermine would see much play. Undermine's lose 3 life isn't that useful if you're not an aggressive deck, but what aggressive decks are running 3-mana counterspells? Absorb seems potentially good, but what does Undermine really go into?
I don't believe so. I think you need a specific shell for it and the pieces aren't available in Modern.
Theoretically would stifle + daze be enough to enable some sort of delver tempo deck in modern?
Also I'm pretty absorb is the actual real card I can't think of undermine ever being really good, countersquall only sees play because it's almost essentially negate in grixis decks, what deck wants an over costed counterspell like undermine.
This talk of 3 CMC Counterspells and Stifle is just reminding me of my disappointment at Disallow. If it would have been up to one spell and one ability, instead of one or the other, that would have had virtually zero effect on Standard as far as I can tell, while also making it niche sideboard tech against cast triggers.
But nope. :/
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
This talk of 3 CMC Counterspells and Stifle is just reminding me of my disappointment at Dissipate. If it would have been up to one spell and one ability, instead of one or the other, that would have had virtually zero effect on Standard as far as I can tell, while also making it niche sideboard tech against cast triggers.
But nope. :/
Do you mean Disallow? Because I too, really, really wanted Disallow to be good. At UU, this would have been FANTASTIC; better than Counterspell. But at 1UU, it's just another unplayable and forgettable Cancel that doesn't see play outside of Standard. I wish they could have found a way to staple on some kind of drawback that would allow it to be cast for UU but not be too awful. Silumgar's Scorn was playable and good in Standard as strictly Counterspell most of the time, but never broken. I don't understand why such a spell is so gosh darn taboo for Wizards.
Good point about Silumgar’s. I don’t think the format needs straight-up Counterspell, but I would like to see a good catch-all-with-a-drawback. (I will plug the homebrew card in my sig until my dying breath.)
This talk of 3 CMC Counterspells and Stifle is just reminding me of my disappointment at Dissipate. If it would have been up to one spell and one ability, instead of one or the other, that would have had virtually zero effect on Standard as far as I can tell, while also making it niche sideboard tech against cast triggers.
But nope. :/
Do you mean Disallow? Because I too, really, really wanted Disallow to be good. At UU, this would have been FANTASTIC; better than Counterspell. But at 1UU, it's just another unplayable and forgettable Cancel that doesn't see play outside of Standard. I wish they could have found a way to staple on some kind of drawback that would allow it to be cast for UU but not be too awful. Silumgar's Scorn was playable and good in Standard as strictly Counterspell most of the time, but never broken. I don't understand why such a spell is so gosh darn taboo for Wizards.
Because as people say about Tron in modern it's not fun to play against. A lot of people don't like playing against countermagic and WotC has responded by putting less of it into the format.
Good point about Silumgar’s. I don’t think the format needs straight-up Counterspell, but I would like to see a good catch-all-with-a-drawback. (I will plug the homebrew card in my sig until mydyinf breath.)
I can't be the only person who has tried Familiar's Ruse and had success. It's exactly what you're asking for, 2 cmc counter with a drawback. Even better, you can use this particular drawback to your advantage with the right creatures...say, Snapcaster Mage.
Good point about Silumgar’s. I don’t think the format needs straight-up Counterspell, but I would like to see a good catch-all-with-a-drawback. (I will plug the homebrew card in my sig until mydyinf breath.)
I can't be the only person who has tried Familiar's Ruse and had success. It's exactly what you're asking for, 2 cmc counter with a drawback. Even better, you can use this particular drawback to your advantage with the right creatures...say, Snapcaster Mage.
I have tried it. I have mixed feelings. the one I really like is Deprive . If you're not in a spot where it screws up your curve too much, it's really good.
I was so, SO upset that we didn't get a Revolt counterspell. in Aether Revolt. UU- Mana Leak unless Revolt is active, then just straight counter
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
Good point about Silumgar’s. I don’t think the format needs straight-up Counterspell, but I would like to see a good catch-all-with-a-drawback. (I will plug the homebrew card in my sig until mydyinf breath.)
I can't be the only person who has tried Familiar's Ruse and had success. It's exactly what you're asking for, 2 cmc counter with a drawback. Even better, you can use this particular drawback to your advantage with the right creatures...say, Snapcaster Mage.
I have tried it. I have mixed feelings. the one I really like is Deprive . If you're not in a spot where it screws up your curve too much, it's really good.
I was so, SO upset that we didn't get a Revolt counterspell. in Aether Revolt. UU- Mana Leak unless Revolt is active, then just straight counter
Admittedly that would have been sweet, particularly for my Faeries deck which is getting stuff off of the battlefield all the time. For me, Deprive doesn't work as well, but in other decks I can totally see it being the better choice over FR. My point is that if you want counter magic, it's out there for you to use. I'm not convinced we need straight Counterspell or Daze in Modern when we have options.
I think they could possibly give us a Stifle that cannot target land abilities, to avoid being a one mana stone rain against Fetches.
Even though standard doesnt often have fetchlands, they will do this with modern in mind.
Would anyone play this hypothetical "fixed" stifle?
So how would that read? Something like: Counter target non-land activated or triggered ability? It might see some play still, although keep in mind this also means it can't be used against stuff like Valakut and Sanctum of Ugin as well.
I don't think Stifle per se would be healthy for Modern. 1CMC Stone Rain is just too punishing IMO, especially when it can also provide other utility like countering Valakut triggers, Storm triggers, etc. I think that if you wanted a Modern-playable Stifle effect, it would need to be able to hit land activations to be playable, but for 2 CMC. However, a card like that needs to have a strong upside to be playable (as Trickbind demonstrates).
Rather than tacking on value, I think a second mode could do the trick. Something like:
Unstifle 1U
Instant
Choose one—
• Return target creature to its owner’s hand.
• Counter target activated or triggered ability.
Unsummon effects aren't that great, but they fit with the tempo plan, and I think having that choice for when Stifling a land isn't relevant makes it good enough for including a few in a list. Overcosting each by 1 seems reasonable while keeping it playable.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Storm isn't even that good anymore...Tron is good but field of ruin is doing as much work as anything. I get that a GP had five trons in the top 8, but maybe give those players some credit for good metagaming? As long as people are obsessed with midrange goodstuff and control, tron will be viable. That's the wonder of the format - there is no deck with no weaknesses. There's no temur energy standard or grixis delver legacy. Hell, storm KEEPS tron in check just like Ad Nauseam. These card recommendations like stifle and wasteland sound more like a desire to remove tron from the format than something to actually improve modern.
Oh, and we've only had BBE and JTMS in the format for ten days. Maybe we can give it a month or two and let people, you know, learn, before declaring a deck broken. Same as when people said grixis shadow (that blue midrange deck that wasn't qualified enough for the blue mages) needed a nerf until people adapted.
No deck is broken, thats not really what we are discussing here. At the end of the day, playing Control, I understand that Tron can be configured to be a less optimal match up for me, thats not a bug, thats a feature.
I still hate the deck, but thats probably due to that 'feature'. :]
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
UW Spirits
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I mean I get you (side eyes Kiki...) costs mean something, but 1 vs 2 within the context of this discussion? If one REALLY needed to stop an on cast trigger, Trick Bind is perfectly sideboardable in Modern.
I'd burn those slots of my 75 on 2 or 3 Field of Ruin instead, but thats just me.
EDIT: I mean I just spent probably 6 Turns keeping up 1U, so I could Disdainful Stroke a Collected Company I knew my Knightfall opponent was sitting on. That was their only out, so..keep up the mana.
Spirits
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
The reason Stifle can check cards in Legacy is that it allows Tempo decks to threaten to blow up any fetchland at instant speed, meaning they effectively trade leaving open one mana to keep their opponent also one short on mana. That reason alone would make Stifle worth considering in Ux Tempo decks, since they can trade even on tempo whereas Trickbind forces them to trade down.
Checking Eldrazi, Storm triggers, etc. just comes along with having Stifle be good maindeck material whereas Trickbind simply isn't.
That said, I don't know how much Stifle would shape the meta overall, but think about Stubborn Denial in GDS, and then consider them doing that to your lands. Ouch.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
the ole' 1 mana stone rain. protector of fun and friendly magic
magic is weird sometimes
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Everything else you said was just different words for what I said up until the point you thought it'd port into Modern. I don't think it would, because just 4 copies of that in your deck aren't enough to force that tempo. You also need Wasteland and Daze to capitalize on the mana denial. Much easier to Force Spike someone (even for free) when you're actively nuking their lands.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Vindicate doesn't seem like it's going to happen. It simply can't pass the Standard test no matter what Standard looks like. Its power level is way above anything else we see in Standard answers for the past 7+ years.
The other three cards are great ideas and could all reasonably pass the Standard test. Absorb and Undermine are just good 3 CMC counters, and we know Wizards is trying to print CMC 3 counters with upsides. Prohibit is actively bad in some Standard environments and would be merely strong in others. I would be surprised if we never saw these cards enter the format.
I'm also very skeptical about whether Undermine would see much play. Undermine's lose 3 life isn't that useful if you're not an aggressive deck, but what aggressive decks are running 3-mana counterspells? Absorb seems potentially good, but what does Undermine really go into?
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Also I'm pretty absorb is the actual real card I can't think of undermine ever being really good, countersquall only sees play because it's almost essentially negate in grixis decks, what deck wants an over costed counterspell like undermine.
But nope. :/
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Do you mean Disallow? Because I too, really, really wanted Disallow to be good. At UU, this would have been FANTASTIC; better than Counterspell. But at 1UU, it's just another unplayable and forgettable Cancel that doesn't see play outside of Standard. I wish they could have found a way to staple on some kind of drawback that would allow it to be cast for UU but not be too awful. Silumgar's Scorn was playable and good in Standard as strictly Counterspell most of the time, but never broken. I don't understand why such a spell is so gosh darn taboo for Wizards.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Good point about Silumgar’s. I don’t think the format needs straight-up Counterspell, but I would like to see a good catch-all-with-a-drawback. (I will plug the homebrew card in my sig until my dying breath.)
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Because as people say about Tron in modern it's not fun to play against. A lot of people don't like playing against countermagic and WotC has responded by putting less of it into the format.
Spirits
I can't be the only person who has tried Familiar's Ruse and had success. It's exactly what you're asking for, 2 cmc counter with a drawback. Even better, you can use this particular drawback to your advantage with the right creatures...say, Snapcaster Mage.
I have tried it. I have mixed feelings. the one I really like is Deprive . If you're not in a spot where it screws up your curve too much, it's really good.
I was so, SO upset that we didn't get a Revolt counterspell. in Aether Revolt. UU- Mana Leak unless Revolt is active, then just straight counter
Admittedly that would have been sweet, particularly for my Faeries deck which is getting stuff off of the battlefield all the time. For me, Deprive doesn't work as well, but in other decks I can totally see it being the better choice over FR. My point is that if you want counter magic, it's out there for you to use. I'm not convinced we need straight Counterspell or Daze in Modern when we have options.
Even though standard doesnt often have fetchlands, they will do this with modern in mind.
Would anyone play this hypothetical "fixed" stifle?
So how would that read? Something like: Counter target non-land activated or triggered ability? It might see some play still, although keep in mind this also means it can't be used against stuff like Valakut and Sanctum of Ugin as well.
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Rather than tacking on value, I think a second mode could do the trick. Something like:
Unsummon effects aren't that great, but they fit with the tempo plan, and I think having that choice for when Stifling a land isn't relevant makes it good enough for including a few in a list. Overcosting each by 1 seems reasonable while keeping it playable.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Oh, and we've only had BBE and JTMS in the format for ten days. Maybe we can give it a month or two and let people, you know, learn, before declaring a deck broken. Same as when people said grixis shadow (that blue midrange deck that wasn't qualified enough for the blue mages) needed a nerf until people adapted.
I still hate the deck, but thats probably due to that 'feature'. :]
Spirits