Yeah, I think both Jace and BBE are very exciting. Blue control is legitimately good now, and BBE empowers a lot of fun midrange and creature-based aggro shells. When the format settles out in a month or two, I think Modern could be even better than it was before the unbans.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
The revisionist history of 'viable blue' is...funny. Someone at one point argued that Bant Eldrazi was a blue deck...
Either way, people can play whatever these days and 5-0, so...just play. :]
I remember those days... *shutter*.
I honestly am really excited about Jace in the format. I hope it does what Twin used to without skewing the meta to an absurd degree (decks that use jace, decks that do not use jace, and those decks used to meta game).
Having resolved and kept-around a Jace multiple times last night in paper, I can say it is definitely a powerful thing blue decks can be doing, but it is hardly back-breakingly powerful. It seems the best place for Jace is a deck that is already doing something else and also happens to play Jace. It's another headache for the opponent to deal with that is both a threat and answer on its own, but fairly fragile win condition if that's all you've got and you aren't already ahead. If nothing else, it is something to make your opponent fight over while you save resolving your Plan A.
I imagine lots of different wonky blue shells are going to get better simply by adding 2-3 Jace in their 75; be it Pyro/Thing, Breach, Madcap, Kiki, Geist, or draw-go. I think the only shell that may still be fairly bad (and may not want to be casting a 4cmc sorcery speed spell) is a Delver list of some sort. Having played Kiki/Mite yesterday, I think I'm going to try a Grixis shell next.
As much as I would have rather had Twin released, Jace has been a breath of fresh air after years of mediocrity.
I would have infinitly rather had Twin, but I truly feel in this wide meta we have it becomes a defacto tier 1 deck the moment it is free, because it has no fear of jank tier 2 decks.
I would have infinitly rather had Twin, but I truly feel in this wide meta we have it becomes a defacto tier 1 deck the moment it is free, because it has no fear of jank tier 2 decks.
With the prevalence of Push, Path, and Thoughtseize, I just don't see it as much. It would probably be really good, but not broken by any means. No different or any more "warping" than any other "Good Tier 1 deck." I would also personally not mind thinning out a lot of the "Tier 2 Jank™" for a more predictable meta, but we know Wizards actively does not want that. Either way, with Jace free, it's safe to say that even if Twin is ever released, it's not going to be for another long while.
'Wrong' is a concept of opinion, and format goals.
Certainly it would be 'wrong' based on what Wizards apparent goals are, but it would simply be a deck up there with Eldrazi Tron, G Tron, 4C Shadow, Burn, etc.
In the recently posted 5-0 leagues ( https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-modern-constructed-league-2018-02-20 ), only 12 decks were running JTMS and of them, only 2 ran the full play-set. I've watched also several streams of pros (and non-pros) playing Jace decks going 5-0;/4-1 and it really seems to me that the card is super fine. We also see several decks making a come-back with jace like chord decks. Unfortunately I didn't have the time to play with him yet, but hopefully I'll give my Faeries as spin coming Friday. From what I've seen so far though, Jace is definitely NOT the end of modern.
Splinter Twin is over. Stop talking about it, it would be wrong to come off and it won't ever be.
Unless WOTC makes a statement saying so, there is always the Wild Nacatl precedent to release it. Now, I don't think they will (now that Jace is free), but to say it will never happen is just as unfounded as any other absolute claim.
Jace is super enough and Modern needs to be heading into the right direction. Also, JTMS does not win on the spot.
Games should last longer, especially the control decks should end the game in a rather slow fashion.
I agree. And games with and against Twin were often long, drawn-out affairs, with lots of intense back-and-forth trading of resources and jockeying for position. They were incredibly demanding and skill-testing. The games that were over quickly were because some arrogant linear deck over-extended without respecting the combo and it happened to be one of those 25% times you had it on Turn 4.
Either way, I'll just reiterate the last line of the first post that started this needless train of "Twin is never coming back" talk: "As much as I would have rather had Twin released, Jace has been a breath of fresh air after years of mediocrity."
The number of decks reported in wizards data dump with Jace in them isn’t really representative of anything though since they only report decks that are differentiated by at least twenty cards in the 75. So even if this week had 800 UW control decks with Jace 5-0, it would only show up as one of those twelve one time.
Not making any conclusion on Jace at this time, simply saying that the “only 12 decks were running JTMS” can be misleading
Splinter Twin is over. Stop talking about it, it would be wrong to come off and it won't ever be.
Unless WOTC makes a statement saying so
As a four-mana card that doesn't necessarily win the game on the spot, Bloodbraid Elf is at its best when games are longer and resources are being exchanged
Convoluted, vague, and cryptic message meanings are kind of WOTC's jam. I assume they do this on purpose so as to not inadvertently commit to absolutely supporting or opposing anything.
Besides, how do we know they aren't talking about Gifts Ungiven?
Splinter Twin kill prob threatens diversity and the above quote proves the card has as much chances as Birthing Pod to come off.
It literally reads: "Cards that win on the spot on turn 4 are problem, but cards that do not win on the spot are fine"
That's not actually what it reads. It says that BBE is a 4 drop that doesn't necessarily win on the spot, and nothing more. Anything beyond that is inferred by the reader and not explicitly stated by Wizards. Going back on what was said in the Wild Nacatl unban:
"At the time Wild Nacatl was banned, we hoped that this would allow room for other aggressive decks to shine. Artifact-based aggressive strategies have remained popular and a few other aggressive decks have emerged, but the Zoo decks eventually disappeared as a result of the ban and nothing else emerged as a viable traditional aggressive deck. We expect that with the return of Wild Nacatl, those decks will return as a viable option."
You could exchange the words "Wild Nacatl" with "Splinter Twin" and "aggressive decks" with "blue, reactive/control decks," and you have nearly an identical case, especially considering the bland mediocrity of the past two years. It wasn't really until just the past couple months that Jeskai gained popularity, but still never held any real presence at top tables in big paper tournaments (and virtually nothing else to be seen playing counterspell/reactive decks). And no, GDS is not a reactive/control deck.
I understand the stance one could hold after reading that statement, but it remains to be seen how Jace will affect blue going forward. It is abundantly clear that WOTC observed how terrible Uxx decks have been since banning Twin (remember, they have access to a LOT more data than we do, and it already looked not great). As a result, they have chosen to give us Jace as a tool to stop sucking so much. Hopefully this leads to a rise in Uxx reactive decks (it has already breathed TONS of life into Island-lovers in terms of brewing). But if not, it's the Wild Nacatl problem all over again.
I would not like to discuss this further because I am frankly over the "It's never going to happen" comments. Sure, it will probably not come off (especially in the short term), but to say never is as disingenuous as Mark Rosewater telling us that fetchlands wouldn't be in Battle for Zendikar.
all i know is that the format would have to be in a REALLY weird place for twin to be a viable solution. the probability of that occurring is close enough to zero to make it functionally the same as 'never gonna happen'.
if for some magical reason blue decks needed help even after jace i would look at Dig Through Time before looking at twin. ive always felt that it wasnt given a fair chance to transition into the format, and was just swept up in the treasure cruise catastrophy.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Twin solves, literally nothing. Its a nuke to 'well Blue reactive still cannot close out a game'.
Dig probably would be next if reactive blue continues to struggle, as hilarious as that would be.
Can we all not sit back and laugh if, in 6-8 months Jace, the might Wallet Sculptor, has done nothing to this format and is back down to like $70 bucks?
all i know is that the format would have to be in a REALLY weird place for twin to be a viable solution. the probability of that occurring is close enough to zero to make it functionally the same as 'never gonna happen'.
if for some magical reason blue decks needed help even after jace i would look at Dig Through Time before looking at twin. ive always felt that it wasnt given a fair chance to transition into the format, and was just swept up in the treasure cruise catastrophy.
IIRC, there was exactly one deck that really managed to abuse Dig Through Time: Splinter Twin. (Everyone else was busy abusing Treasure Cruise, so it would definitely have gotten a lot more play apart from that.)
That said, Dig is dangerous because of how powerful it is in combo decks. Storm in particular should have a heyday with it, and we know how much WotC loves to empower storm.
I don't imagine Dig would overpower reactive Blue decks, but other Blue decks could become a problem. Then again, reactive Blue decks are some of the best counters to those spell-based combos, so IDK.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Twin solves, literally nothing. Its a nuke to 'well Blue reactive still cannot close out a game'.
Dig probably would be next if reactive blue continues to struggle, as hilarious as that would be.
Can we all not sit back and laugh if, in 6-8 months Jace, the might Wallet Sculptor, has done nothing to this format and is back down to like $70 bucks?
I would lmao...
You mean like AV and SOTM?
In all seriousness though, I really hope Jace does well and helps support interactive decks.
I don't really feel that anything on the ban list would help blue based control very much. The trouble blue has isn't really digging or protecting. DTT just digs for what you need. As much as I would love the cantrips, same deal. The trouble is that blue doesn't have the same caliber of actual win conditions. Wizards missed a great chance with Khans block. The blue cards with Delver absolutely laid waste to the format, but they only LOOKED for cards or DREW cards. Cruise wasn't usually what you were hoping to draw off of Cruise. What we needed was a blue Hooting Mandril or Gurmag Angler. Blue has very little for huge creatures at a Modern rate.
TiTi is a great card, I love it, I have been bending over backwards to find a good build that doesn't use Red. I think that it or something similar in the future will be the thing to revolutionize Blue control, we just need somethingbesides Delver that is a valid threat in andof itself, at a rate and power level that matters in Modern.
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
Cryptic Serpent is pretty decent as that, but maybe just a touch slow, if it was 4UU instead maybe, I dont know. I played around with it but never seriously.
I don't really feel that anything on the ban list would help blue based control very much. The trouble blue has isn't really digging or protecting. DTT just digs for what you need. As much as I would love the cantrips, same deal. The trouble is that blue doesn't have the same caliber of actual win conditions. Wizards missed a great chance with Khans block. The blue cards with Delver absolutely laid waste to the format, but they only LOOKED for cards or DREW cards. Cruise wasn't usually what you were hoping to draw off of Cruise. What we needed was a blue Hooting Mandril or Gurmag Angler. Blue has very little for huge creatures at a Modern rate.
Why exactly does blue need creatures as good as Angler or Mandrils? Are you demanding monoblue control be viable? If you really feel like your list needs an equivalent to Angler or Tasigur, you can just play Grixis and run them.
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UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Let the conspiracy theories commence!
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Having resolved and kept-around a Jace multiple times last night in paper, I can say it is definitely a powerful thing blue decks can be doing, but it is hardly back-breakingly powerful. It seems the best place for Jace is a deck that is already doing something else and also happens to play Jace. It's another headache for the opponent to deal with that is both a threat and answer on its own, but fairly fragile win condition if that's all you've got and you aren't already ahead. If nothing else, it is something to make your opponent fight over while you save resolving your Plan A.
I imagine lots of different wonky blue shells are going to get better simply by adding 2-3 Jace in their 75; be it Pyro/Thing, Breach, Madcap, Kiki, Geist, or draw-go. I think the only shell that may still be fairly bad (and may not want to be casting a 4cmc sorcery speed spell) is a Delver list of some sort. Having played Kiki/Mite yesterday, I think I'm going to try a Grixis shell next.
As much as I would have rather had Twin released, Jace has been a breath of fresh air after years of mediocrity.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Spirits
With the prevalence of Push, Path, and Thoughtseize, I just don't see it as much. It would probably be really good, but not broken by any means. No different or any more "warping" than any other "Good Tier 1 deck." I would also personally not mind thinning out a lot of the "Tier 2 Jank™" for a more predictable meta, but we know Wizards actively does not want that. Either way, with Jace free, it's safe to say that even if Twin is ever released, it's not going to be for another long while.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
The thing preventing Twin from being unbanned is that thinning of the Tier 2 ranks.
Wizards wants a wide meta. Many (most?) Players want a wide meta.
I think you know as well as I that twin feasted on the decks that make up a wide meta.
It wouldn't be overwhelming to the format, but it would force the meta to account for it in a way no other deck really does right now.
I honestly believe, within the context of Wizards goals for the format, Twin will never come off, regardless of Jace.
Spirits
Just please not Gabriel Nassif slow.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Certainly it would be 'wrong' based on what Wizards apparent goals are, but it would simply be a deck up there with Eldrazi Tron, G Tron, 4C Shadow, Burn, etc.
Spirits
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Spirits
Unless WOTC makes a statement saying so, there is always the Wild Nacatl precedent to release it. Now, I don't think they will (now that Jace is free), but to say it will never happen is just as unfounded as any other absolute claim.
I agree. And games with and against Twin were often long, drawn-out affairs, with lots of intense back-and-forth trading of resources and jockeying for position. They were incredibly demanding and skill-testing. The games that were over quickly were because some arrogant linear deck over-extended without respecting the combo and it happened to be one of those 25% times you had it on Turn 4.
Either way, I'll just reiterate the last line of the first post that started this needless train of "Twin is never coming back" talk: "As much as I would have rather had Twin released, Jace has been a breath of fresh air after years of mediocrity."
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Spirits
The number of decks reported in wizards data dump with Jace in them isn’t really representative of anything though since they only report decks that are differentiated by at least twenty cards in the 75. So even if this week had 800 UW control decks with Jace 5-0, it would only show up as one of those twelve one time.
Not making any conclusion on Jace at this time, simply saying that the “only 12 decks were running JTMS” can be misleading
Besides, how do we know they aren't talking about Gifts Ungiven?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Either way, there are plenty of inconsistent things in the format.
Turn 3 Exarch into Turn 4 Twin? No way.
Turn 2 Knight of the Reliquary into Turn 3 Retreat to Coralhelm? Like I just pulled? Let em ride folks. :]
Spirits
Spirits
That's not actually what it reads. It says that BBE is a 4 drop that doesn't necessarily win on the spot, and nothing more. Anything beyond that is inferred by the reader and not explicitly stated by Wizards. Going back on what was said in the Wild Nacatl unban:
"At the time Wild Nacatl was banned, we hoped that this would allow room for other aggressive decks to shine. Artifact-based aggressive strategies have remained popular and a few other aggressive decks have emerged, but the Zoo decks eventually disappeared as a result of the ban and nothing else emerged as a viable traditional aggressive deck. We expect that with the return of Wild Nacatl, those decks will return as a viable option."
You could exchange the words "Wild Nacatl" with "Splinter Twin" and "aggressive decks" with "blue, reactive/control decks," and you have nearly an identical case, especially considering the bland mediocrity of the past two years. It wasn't really until just the past couple months that Jeskai gained popularity, but still never held any real presence at top tables in big paper tournaments (and virtually nothing else to be seen playing counterspell/reactive decks). And no, GDS is not a reactive/control deck.
I understand the stance one could hold after reading that statement, but it remains to be seen how Jace will affect blue going forward. It is abundantly clear that WOTC observed how terrible Uxx decks have been since banning Twin (remember, they have access to a LOT more data than we do, and it already looked not great). As a result, they have chosen to give us Jace as a tool to stop sucking so much. Hopefully this leads to a rise in Uxx reactive decks (it has already breathed TONS of life into Island-lovers in terms of brewing). But if not, it's the Wild Nacatl problem all over again.
I would not like to discuss this further because I am frankly over the "It's never going to happen" comments. Sure, it will probably not come off (especially in the short term), but to say never is as disingenuous as Mark Rosewater telling us that fetchlands wouldn't be in Battle for Zendikar.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
if for some magical reason blue decks needed help even after jace i would look at Dig Through Time before looking at twin. ive always felt that it wasnt given a fair chance to transition into the format, and was just swept up in the treasure cruise catastrophy.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Dig probably would be next if reactive blue continues to struggle, as hilarious as that would be.
Can we all not sit back and laugh if, in 6-8 months Jace, the might Wallet Sculptor, has done nothing to this format and is back down to like $70 bucks?
I would lmao...
Spirits
IIRC, there was exactly one deck that really managed to abuse Dig Through Time: Splinter Twin. (Everyone else was busy abusing Treasure Cruise, so it would definitely have gotten a lot more play apart from that.)
That said, Dig is dangerous because of how powerful it is in combo decks. Storm in particular should have a heyday with it, and we know how much WotC loves to empower storm.
I don't imagine Dig would overpower reactive Blue decks, but other Blue decks could become a problem. Then again, reactive Blue decks are some of the best counters to those spell-based combos, so IDK.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
You mean like AV and SOTM?
In all seriousness though, I really hope Jace does well and helps support interactive decks.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Spirits
TiTi is a great card, I love it, I have been bending over backwards to find a good build that doesn't use Red. I think that it or something similar in the future will be the thing to revolutionize Blue control, we just need somethingbesides Delver that is a valid threat in andof itself, at a rate and power level that matters in Modern.
Spirits