MTG Salvation

i say we give it some time. its no use just discussing this in circles. let control players get their bearings and figure out what type of cards they need to be playing.

if we end up seeing a healthy mixture of blue reactive decks doing well, then everything is good. in the event that versions using a combo or lean heavily on blood moon are doing better by a substantial margin; then i think its worth talking about if anything can be feasibly done without jeopardizing the health of the format.

wotc explicitly stated that their intent for the jace unban was to give slower blue decks an avenue to being competitive without being forced to adopt combo finishes. if that intent never comes to fruition then i think its reasonable to assume they might try something else.

one thing i wanted to bring up is how people are pointing at stoneforge mystic as something that might help. there are two things wrong with this idea:

1) SFM is white, and therefore can only be used in UWx control shells
2) SFM is very good against control decks

its an early threat that provides card advantage, allows players to circumvent counter magic, and produces permanents that are difficult to deal with.

UW might play stoneforge. however when a mardu player is suiting up their lingering souls with Sword of War and Peace you have to ask yourself who really got the better end of the deal.

I'll ask again since I wasn't following the format when it was unbanned: why Thopter Foundry / Sword of the Meek didn't get going? Which cards or archetypes are holding it back? Still think that 1:gain 1 life and put a 1/1 flyer is impossible to overcome for many decks.

It's sad that Mental Misstep ended failing because it was noble idea to bring a counter that could be used on turn 0 against 1-mana cost spells. Instead of refraining from trying another card in the same vein, they should look at where Mental Misstap went awry in order to do a better attempt. Without derailing the thread into Make your Card, let's see the features that Mental Misstep had that doomed it:

• Colorless cost, so every deck could play it.
• Answered itself, so every deck had to play it to counter it.
• Was easy to recur from the graveyard, so Snapcaster Mage made it super good.

So a new counter that avoids those mistakes and is able to counter spells on turn 1 on the draw should be a boon for blue decks against the busted openings of linear decks that make them ill prepared to answer with Mana Leaks. The one sensible thing to ask about such free counter is that it doesn't invalidate the "turn three rule" of the banning policy, because a deck that tramples over anything but Force of Will kind of cards should be hit with the banhammer anyway.

Quote from javert »

I'll ask again since I wasn't following the format when it was unbanned: why Thopter Foundry / Sword of the Meek didn't get going? Which cards or archetypes are holding it back? Still think that 1:gain 1 life and put a 1/1 flyer is impossible to overcome for many decks.

Engineered Explosives and Izzet Staticaster are cards. Plus incidental artifact hate, K Command, etc, and the fact that it's a slow combo that needs both pieces and doesn't win the game on the spot. I pounded these decks quite a bit as Grixis for the few that tried playing it shortly after unbanned.

thopter sword never gained traction because:

-too slow
-steep opportunity cost requiring significant deck space
-easily disrupted with graveyard or artifact hate

at first people tried to include it in more normalized decks. maybe playing a couple Muddle the Mixture and a single Academy Ruins.

as time passed it didnt prove a more potent option that what blue decks were just doing before.

so now thopter sword is relegated to artifact-centric decks such as UB tezzerator. its still a powerful option, but often suffers from splash damage as people prepare sideboard for affinity and graveyard decks like dredge. not to mention tron just laughs in its face.

the new damping sphere coming with dominaria might change the paradigm, but no one is certain.

as for free(ish) counterspells. i honestly wouldnt mind seeing Force of Will added to the format. it isnt free to play since it has some deckbuilding cost, and is actively bad in matchups where the opponent wants to trade resources with you.

the way i see it if people can pitch simian spirit guides to enable broken things, then i should be able to pitch a blue card to stop them.

I do think that a fixed Mental Misstep would be good for the format. Something like U to counter a CMC 1 spell, and if you haven’t taken a turn yet, you can reveal an island from your hand and pay 2 life instead of paying its mana cost. That way you have to be actually in blue (and without many non-Island lands), and it doesn’t let you cheat on mana on the play or after you’re first turn (so no free counters for your all-in combos).

As an aside, I think one of the principle problems with the broader Modern meta at the moment is that it’s only unfair decks that get access to free counterspells. So pretty much the opposite situation of what makes Force of Will is such a powerful regulator of Legacy.

It’s harder to whsh for FoW now that Jace is unbanned, but I agree that it would be great to help permission decks regulate all-in combos. Not just for the sake of permission, but for the sake of the combo decks that keep getting pieces banned.

Meh.

Thats my feeling on this whole thing. We all know Twin isnt coming back, as ktk mentioned the reasons (it doesnt fit Wizards established vision for the format) and EVERYTHING else that UR could be doing.

1. Shape Anew.
2. Madcap Experiment.
3. Breach.

In conjunction with Blood Moon...all of them pale in comparison, and if you played Twin, you know it, in your soul.

Would BGx players accept Moldgraf Scavenger with Goyf banned? Because thats what Kiki is compared to Twin. I dont expect people who didnt play it to understand this, but the difference is way more that '1 extra R and a Creature instead of an Enchantment'.

In the end, I go back to Shape/Madcap/Breach, and try them, but when you know what you had, its just impossible for me to stomach.

UWR, is all I can play now.

Quote from rogue_LOVE »

I do think that a fixed Mental Misstep would be good for the format. Something like U to counter a CMC 1 spell, and if you haven’t taken a turn yet, you can reveal an island from your hand and pay 2 life instead of paying its mana cost. That way you have to be actually in blue (and without many non-Island lands), and it doesn’t let you cheat on mana on the play or after you’re first turn (so no free counters for your all-in combos).

As an aside, I think one of the principle problems with the broader Modern meta at the moment is that it’s only unfair decks that get access to free counterspells. So pretty much the opposite situation of what makes Force of Will is such a powerful regulator of Legacy.

It’s harder to whsh for FoW now that Jace is unbanned, but I agree that it would be great to help permission decks regulate all-in combos. Not just for the sake of permission, but for the sake of the combo decks that keep getting pieces banned.

i think the problem with that idea is what 1 mana plays do you really care about? nobody is doing anything threatening at 1 mana, at least nothing you cant solve with a bolt or fatal push.

the real issues are when players are expending significant resources to gain an insurmountable tempo advantage or outright win the game. if people want to blow their whole hand to get a big creature, chalice, or blood moon into play then i see no issue with spending extra resources to stop them (ie. pitching a blue card).

A game 1, turn 1 discard can absolutely ruin your day. Or Burning Inquiry. Or Faithless Looting, that that eventual Death's Shadow..

Not that think we need that kind of a counter spell, but yeah, 1 mana can do a lot.

1 mana discard is fine, even if the trade is in your opponents favor since they get to choose the card, it still amounts to a 1-for-1

burning inquiry is a decent example

other examples might include:

-double mox opal openings from affinity
-death shadow fetch + shock -> street wraith x2 -> bauble -> thought scour for a turn 2 angler with stubborn denial backup
-colorless eldrazi pitching for gemstone caverns for a turn 1 chalice on the draw (or SSG on the play)
-dredge pitching cards for cathartic reunion

as of now, for the most part they can do these things with no fear of reprisal. im not entirely sure why that should be the case.

Quote from BlueTronFTW »

Quote from idSurge »

The difference between a 10 turn game with the UWR player having all the answers, and a Turn 4 Shape Anew into Blightsteel Colossus...is what I mean by 'free win'

That's not a free win. That's a fast win.

I would simply argue it's both.

Quote from idSurge »

A game 1, turn 1 discard can absolutely ruin your day. Or Burning Inquiry. Or Faithless Looting, that that eventual Death's Shadow..

Not that think we need that kind of a counter spell, but yeah, 1 mana can do a lot.

Just in terms of Turn 1, add to that Bolt or Guide, or Dork/Arbor Elf, or Stirrings or Map or post-board Needle.

Thinking about it more though, I think it would work better as a Force Spike with the alternate cost on turn 0 rather than a hard counter. Mana Tithe has been in the format since it’s inception and has never been relevant even with viable White control decks, so I don’t foresee problems with giving it an upside for decks with heavy Blue on the draw

actually the more i think about it. what are the arguments AGAINST force of will being in the format?

Quote from tronix »

Quote from rogue_LOVE »

I do think that a fixed Mental Misstep would be good for the format. Something like U to counter a CMC 1 spell, and if you haven’t taken a turn yet, you can reveal an island from your hand and pay 2 life instead of paying its mana cost. That way you have to be actually in blue (and without many non-Island lands), and it doesn’t let you cheat on mana on the play or after you’re first turn (so no free counters for your all-in combos).

As an aside, I think one of the principle problems with the broader Modern meta at the moment is that it’s only unfair decks that get access to free counterspells. So pretty much the opposite situation of what makes Force of Will is such a powerful regulator of Legacy.

It’s harder to whsh for FoW now that Jace is unbanned, but I agree that it would be great to help permission decks regulate all-in combos. Not just for the sake of permission, but for the sake of the combo decks that keep getting pieces banned.

i think the problem with that idea is what 1 mana plays do you really care about? nobody is doing anything threatening at 1 mana, at least nothing you cant solve with a bolt or fatal push.

the real issues are when players are expending significant resources to gain an insurmountable tempo advantage or outright win the game. if people want to blow their whole hand to get a big creature, chalice, or blood moon into play then i see no issue with spending extra resources to stop them (ie. pitching a blue card).

I wouldn't mind seeing it as U or if you have no lands in play, can pay 2 life instead of its mana cost

Quote from tronix »

actually the more i think about it. what are the arguments AGAINST force of will being in the format?

has to go through standard is the main one stopping it (although I agree that it likely wouldn't have a negative affect)

damnit. now im just sitting here day dreaming about how freakin awesome it would be to have force of will.

i wouldnt just roll over to nut draws, id be able to punish all-in sequences, the powerlevel of all my conditional blue cards would even out because i could always pitch them, and i could more reliably tap out.

i could force a jund players turn 1 discard to preserve my removal for their turn 2 creature. force an expedition map, a bogle, blood moon skullcrack, goryos...the list just keeps on going.

well. at least i can dream.

Quote from tronix »

actually the more i think about it. what are the arguments AGAINST force of will being in the format?

The zeal of cardhoarders mainly. Anything below mythic rare and they make a ruckus even if the playerbase at a whole doesn't care. At mythic rare, every Modern blue deck suddenly costs $400 more to play.

But yeah without Brainstorm magically fixing the draws and Wasteland punishing anyone that doesn't, I don't see how FoW would translate into every nonblue deck sucking. Additional help to punish linear decks and their nut draws would be welcome and turn Modern more grindy and midrange oriented.

I'd gladly add some of those Eternal Masters FOW to my deck.

You know I never noticed the echo cost of Pact of Negation, is the same as the natural cost of FOW...

We can probably bet against FoW ever existing in Standard, so what's the Modern-playable, Standard-appropriate replacement? Maybe a FoW that is only free if it's the first N turns of the game? A FoW that only counters permanents? There needs to be some kind of restriction that matters in Standard but is more negligible in Modern.

Quote from ktkenshinx »

We can probably bet against FoW ever existing in Standard, so what's the Modern-playable, Standard-appropriate replacement? Maybe a FoW that is only free if it's the first N turns of the game? A FoW that only counters permanents? There needs to be some kind of restriction that matters in Standard but is more negligible in Modern.

It would just need to be a format like Time Spiral. A set that pushes the edges of what they are mechanically willing to do.

Will we ever get that again? I dont know, but there are cards like the pacts, suspend cards, Gemstone Caverns, Pull from Eternity.

Does Wizards have the stones for an experimental set like that again? I doubt it.

Quote from ktkenshinx »

We can probably bet against FoW ever existing in Standard, so what's the Modern-playable, Standard-appropriate replacement? Maybe a FoW that is only free if it's the first N turns of the game? A FoW that only counters permanents? There needs to be some kind of restriction that matters in Standard but is more negligible in Modern.

well im not entirely convinced that FoW would be too good in standard. however i agree that wotc reprinting it is likely never going to happen.

there are any number of ways to make a worse version.

-let the opponent pay the converted mana cost of the card you pitched (or maybe cmc +1). with the idea that to make the spell better you have to sacrifice better cards. maybe add in that you can pitch any number of blue cards and the opponent has to pay the total cmc.

-make the alternative casting cost only applicable if you have fewer than X lands in play. so basically if you have enough lands to hard cast it, then that is the only way to use it.

-if the spell is successfully countered let the opponent loot (draw -> discard). obvious downside because you improve your opponents hand. (having them outright draw a card would be way too brutal)

-make the opponents next spell cost X less. though im not sure if that version would be playable.

-the next spell you cast costs X more. again, not sure if it would be playable.

-if the spell is countered you show your opponent your hand. not a huge downside, but its something.

-the opponents spells and permanents cant be targetted by spells or abilities you control for the remainder of the turn. basically everything gains hexproof and all of their spells cannot be countered.

-can only counter non creature spells. maybe playable, maybe not.

thats all i could think of, but yeah there are a ton of ways to make a worse version.

Quote from ktkenshinx »

We can probably bet against FoW ever existing in Standard, so what's the Modern-playable, Standard-appropriate replacement? Maybe a FoW that is only free if it's the first N turns of the game? A FoW that only counters permanents? There needs to be some kind of restriction that matters in Standard but is more negligible in Modern.

The problem I would argue is generally non-battlefield related spells, since that spectrum is so isolated and inherently toxic within Magic. So I would argue that the card needs to be similar in wording like Negate.

Quote from ktkenshinx »

We can probably bet against FoW ever existing in Standard, so what's the Modern-playable, Standard-appropriate replacement? Maybe a FoW that is only free if it's the first N turns of the game? A FoW that only counters permanents? There needs to be some kind of restriction that matters in Standard but is more negligible in Modern.

One of the things that is important for FoW is the trade you are making for the free spell. For FoW it is 1 life and a blue card, which has been proven to be relatively insignificant.

For Pact of Negation (the closest we have to a FoW), is a delayed cost of the spell.
For Disrupting Soil, the card had to be the exact same cost, which has proven to be really hard in a format as diverse as modern.

I think, if we are ever to get a free counterspell again, we should be looking at what would be a meaningful drawback first, and then what it can counter. We know for example that life points are not a significant enough drawback. So if they wanted to use life points, they would need an extra requirement. Limitations on what you can discard has already been used twice. Delayed cost has been used. We also saw that they weren't willing to do the "your lands don't untap" drawback for a free/cheap coutnerspell.

I might be a bit "pessimistic", but I don't think there is any chance we are getting a free counterspell in standard ever again.

Force of Will would take blue from being a "bad" color to the best. The entire format would be flipped completely on its head. At that point we are no longer talking about modern, but rather turning modern into legacy. I'd rather see counterspell and/or daze, if anything. Daze in particular I think would become more fair given the presence of shocklands.

Then again, the format is incredibly healthy, and this entire conversation is based around the prevalence or lack thereof of a single archetype.

Quote from BlueTronFTW »

Force of Will would take blue from being a "bad" color to the best. The entire format would be flipped completely on its head. At that point we are no longer talking about modern, but rather turning modern into legacy. I'd rather see counterspell and/or daze, if anything. Daze in particular I think would become more fair given the presence of shocklands.

Then again, the format is incredibly healthy, and this entire conversation is based around the prevalence or lack thereof of a single archetype.

I would argue against this completely, and state the only massive difference between Modern and Legacy right now is Dual Lands vs Shocklands and Brainstorm vs Serum Visions. The countermagic only exists in the prevalence that it does in Legacy because there are decks that run cards like Dark Ritual. We have seen Legacy metagames where either only Force, or 3 Force main, 1 Side have existed because fair decks dominated in those periods of time.

Quote from Shmanka »

I would argue against this completely, and state the only massive difference between Modern and Legacy right now is Dual Lands vs Shocklands and Brainstorm vs Serum Visions. The countermagic only exists in the prevalence that it does in Legacy because there are decks that run cards like Dark Ritual. We have seen Legacy metagames where either only Force, or 3 Force main, 1 Side have existed because fair decks dominated in those periods of time.

Well first off, those are huge differences between the formats

Having to take 2 damage for your duals lands to enter untapped is a huge reason as to why Burn is honestly a good deck in the format. So many decks deal incidental damage to themselves already, Burn usually only has to really do 14-15 damage most games, which isn't overly difficult.

I'm not even going to touch on how much more powerful Brainstorm is than Visions, that one is plain as day lol.

In one essence, I feel FoW would do to Modern what many people feared Jace would do. It will congeal blue decks towards a specific deck build, while other control decks in the format fail at being nearly as good. Again I'll bring up Burn since most people forget that the alternate cost on FoW does in fact cost you 1 life in addition to the blue card you need to exile.

I feel if Wizards was going to remake FoW for Standard, at the very least the damage it did for the alternate cost would probably be up to around 3 damage I'd say, as opposed to the measly 1 current FoW does.

I think a Disrupting Shoal but with "X or less" and "you lose X life" would be totally fair. Or a Logic Knot effect where again X = the pitched card's CMC and you lose X life.