Confidence came back when Innistrad was released. I hate a lot of Limited formats, but even I have to admit that Innistrad limited was probably in the top 3 of all time, if not better than that. Then the set itself was super strong too. Yes, there were problems like Butcher's Cleaver/Invisible Stalker in Limited, but outside of small problems, Innistrad was a godsend. Even Avacyn Restored and Dark Ascension were very good sets.
yeah i got no problem saying that i think innistrad is the best magic block ever. flavor, mechanics, everything. limited was a home run, and every standard season with it around was a blast. even when thragtusk was everywhere.
as for pros talking about jace. im sure some of them were driven by ulterior motives, but for the most part i think they were just writing what they genuinely think. gotta remember that a lot of them are good at the game, but that doesnt automatically translate into being able to assess cards, deckbuilding, and metagame analysis. sensationalist or not part of the blame falls on readers that just blindly follow or parrot what they say without thinking for themselves.
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Its still a good card, but for the 'pro's' to flip out like they did was pretty embarrassing. Anyone who play's control should have been able to see the impact it would have.
Honestly, I think a lot of why people thought JTMS would be horrible for Modern was because of how ridiculous JTMS was in Standard. However sometimes people forget there is a big difference between what is good in Standard, and what is good in an eternal environment.
As someone who was firmly in the 'unban Jace, look at Modern, it's not actually going to do anything' camp (and unlike some of the flip-flopping pros, my stance is pretty easy to find on here) please don't unban Dread Return. I am not exactly sure what would be the best way to break it, but it's not like AV or Jace or SFM or even something more powerful like Jitte (which is incredibly broken) it's not a card that is good and would go in a remotely healthy deck. If it saw any play, it would be in something more toxic that amped Dredge.
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
Confidence came back when Innistrad was released. I hate a lot of Limited formats, but even I have to admit that Innistrad limited was probably in the top 3 of all time, if not better than that. Then the set itself was super strong too. Yes, there were problems like Butcher's Cleaver/Invisible Stalker in Limited, but outside of small problems, Innistrad was a godsend. Even Avacyn Restored and Dark Ascension were very good sets.
yeah i got no problem saying that i think innistrad is the best magic block ever. flavor, mechanics, everything. limited was a home run, and every standard season with it around was a blast. even when thragtusk was everywhere.
as for pros talking about jace. im sure some of them were driven by ulterior motives, but for the most part i think they were just writing what they genuinely think. gotta remember that a lot of them are good at the game, but that doesnt automatically translate into being able to assess cards, deckbuilding, and metagame analysis. sensationalist or not part of the blame falls on readers that just blindly follow or parrot what they say without thinking for themselves.
For people who don't play much, it's hard not to trust a Pro's opinion, rather than some guy on the internet that could be lying about playing 4-6 times per week. I say I go on Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays, and both weekends. But honestly as an outsider, I'd trust what a Pro says much more than someone like myself, even if some of the ideas actually do make sense. So, I don't think that you can necessarily blame others for trusting Pros.
Even my default when someone asks me something and I want it to correspond with what a Pro says is, "do you know what E Fro or so and so says?" I even jokingly told people that Brian Demars said Titanshift is Tier 3 or less while I won a PPTQ with the deck.
*Now on the other hand, someone like myself and Bocephus that play a heck of a lot of Modern, we are not just going to blindly trust what others say...anywhere. We trust our own experiences. I told people that Bloom Titan was Tier 1 for years, but people told me, "that's not how Tier 1 is determined." I don't care. I felt like the deck was as strong as Jund or Twin, so I put it in that same category. Sorry if that doesn't jive with what Hoogland or whoever says.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
*Now on the other hand, someone like myself and Bocephus that play a heck of a lot of Modern, we are not just going to blindly trust what others say...anywhere.
Hang on a minute, Bocephus? The guy who went crazy after Valakut was unbanned, claiming that it would overrun the format and make Jund unplayable? (Jund became the best deck afterwards, by the way) The guy who claimed that, during Eldrazi Winter, Eldrazi wasn't really overpowered and people were just not innovating against it? He made so many crazy claims I always had trouble deciding if he was trolling or not. He's such a weird person to point to as some kind of Modern expert.
We trust our own experiences. I told people that Bloom Titan was Tier 1 for years, but people told me, "that's not how Tier 1 is determined." I don't care. I felt like the deck was as strong as Jund or Twin, so I put it in that same category. Sorry if that doesn't jive with what Hoogland or whoever says.
Your lack of caring about the actual definition of Tier 1 does not mean something, when not meeting the definition, is somehow Tier 1. There may be some deck out there that has a 60/40 win rate or better against the entire format that no one's discovered... but until consistent results are posted with it, it's not Tier 1 despite its strength. Tiers are measures of results, not measures of strength.
*Now on the other hand, someone like myself and Bocephus that play a heck of a lot of Modern, we are not just going to blindly trust what others say...anywhere.
Hang on a minute, Bocephus? The guy who went crazy after Valakut was unbanned, claiming that it would overrun the format and make Jund unplayable? (Jund became the best deck afterwards, by the way) The guy who claimed that, during Eldrazi Winter, Eldrazi wasn't really overpowered and people were just not innovating against it? He made so many crazy claims I always had trouble deciding if he was trolling or not. He's such a weird person to point to as some kind of Modern expert.
We trust our own experiences. I told people that Bloom Titan was Tier 1 for years, but people told me, "that's not how Tier 1 is determined." I don't care. I felt like the deck was as strong as Jund or Twin, so I put it in that same category. Sorry if that doesn't jive with what Hoogland or whoever says.
Your lack of caring about the actual definition of Tier 1 does not mean something, when not meeting the definition, is somehow Tier 1. There may be some deck out there that has a 60/40 win rate or better against the entire format that no one's discovered... but until consistent results are posted with it, it's not Tier 1 despite its strength. Tiers are measures of results, not measures of strength.
No one has gotten everything right, especially here on MTGS. Sorry to burst your bubble. I did not agree with everything that Bo said either. But I talked to him privately here, mostly about trying to ignore the hateful things others said to him. He did come off seemingly rude sometimes, but he was just being brutally honest. He never attacked anyone, at least from what I saw, and was attacked by many. What happens when you put someone in a corner? I found out that he played a lot during the week. I'm sure there are others here. I just don't "personally" know if they do or don't. He also helped me with speculating with Ancestral Vision. When I found out that he was sitting on literally 100s of copies, it made me not feel so good with my 3 play sets (and play set of foils). I STILL wish I had bought more than the 3 other play sets that I bought after talking to him...
I realize what Tier 1 means, but it doesn't mean I'm going to just say, "oh, MTGS says that Bloom Titan is not Tier 1, so I won't take this deck seriously." This deck has to be worse than every other Tier 1 deck. I label Tiers by power level and if there's a deck that's not played much, like Lantern Control *cough *cough and I think it's one of the 3 strongest decks, then I will call it Tier 1. I really don't care if never more than 5% plays the damn deck. While it's good to know that you won't run into the top deck too often, it also kind of diminishes the actual power of the deck in the hands of a good pilot.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
No one has gotten everything right, especially here on MTGS. Sorry to burst your bubble.
It's one thing to not get everything right. It's another thing to say things that were laughably incorrect, as he often would do. Or also say things that seemed straight up false, like his repeated claims that his store (which he always refused to name, conveniently) was part of some Modern initial ban test that Wizards of the Coast did.
I did not agree with everything that Bo said either. But I talked to him privately here, mostly about trying to ignore the hateful things others said to him. He did come off seemingly rude sometimes, but he was just being brutally honest. He never attacked anyone, at least from what I saw, and was attacked by many. What happens when you put someone in a corner?
Bocephus certainly loved to use the rolleyes emote, so let's not claim he never attacked anyone. As for the "many" attacking him, if someone says things that are absurd, like claiming that Stoneforge Mystic is more powerful than Tinker (a claim he made), then many people will naturally take issue with it.
No one has gotten everything right, especially here on MTGS. Sorry to burst your bubble.
It's one thing to not get everything right. It's another thing to say things that were laughably incorrect, as he often would do. Or also say things that seemed straight up false, like his repeated claims that his store (which he always refused to name, conveniently) was part of some Modern initial ban test that Wizards of the Coast did.
I did not agree with everything that Bo said either. But I talked to him privately here, mostly about trying to ignore the hateful things others said to him. He did come off seemingly rude sometimes, but he was just being brutally honest. He never attacked anyone, at least from what I saw, and was attacked by many. What happens when you put someone in a corner?
Bocephus certainly loved to use the rolleyes emote, so let's not claim he never attacked anyone. As for the "many" attacking him, if someone says things that are absurd, like claiming that Stoneforge Mystic is more powerful than Tinker (a claim he made), then many people will naturally take issue with it.
I'm saying the attacks on him got personal. It should never come to this unless someone else made it personal, which I don't think he did. Its okay if you don't agree with me that Stoneforge Mystic should be unbanned. It's another thing to call me a stupid piece of ***** for living for it.
Some of the people that I agreed with the most were way too personal with him. If you don't believe him, that's fine. Part of me thinks that it's not possible to be part of a testing team. Part of me thinks that it's not likely to want to lie on the internet because it proves nothing to nobody. So, I'm undecided on that. But do you just have to say that everything that someone does is bull*****? Is that what it takes for someone to not just go out and have another ******* Columbine? If it is, then for Christ's sake, vent here. But otherwise, I think you can cut someone some slack. Even HE admits that we agreed on very little, but we didn't attack each other. I'm a grown man. I don't need to attack someone unless they threaten my family.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Some of the people that I agreed with the most were way too personal with him. If you don't believe him, that's fine. Part of me thinks that it's not possible to be part of a testing team. Part of me thinks that it's not likely to want to lie on the internet because it proves nothing to nobody. So, I'm undecided on that. But do you just have to say that everything that someone does is bull*****?
Whoa whoa whoa, when did I say that? He said a lot of crazy things (another one being his insistence that printing any card from before 8th Edition into Modern was some kind of betrayal of the format's purpose), but he could be reasonable when not saying things that made me take a double-take to make sure I wasn't misreading them. And I'll be fair and say he did cut down on the crazy considerably later on. Though I think that came mostly from him shifting his discussion focus so he wouldn't as frequently claim things like how Valakut is more powerful than Dark Depths and should be re-banned.
Honestly, I think people would've had much less of a problem with his odd claims if he hadn't constantly been drowning the banned list discussion threads with them.
At any rate, my point was that it seemed very odd to bring the guy up as some counterpoint to pros not knowing what they were talking about in Modern when he would make statements just as silly, if not sillier, than the goofy ones we've seen "pros" make about Modern. Like, look at that part about Valakut and Dark Depths I cited. If anyone on SCG said that, we'd all be on them for how dumb it was and out of touch they're in the format to make a claim like that (granted, said statement by him was from a year ago... but it was still silly back in March of 2017).
bosephus seemed like he would say the opposite of everyone else to upset people. When he claimed Eldrazi Winter was fine and people were just being lazy with innovation, it was difficult to ever take him seriously again.
Anyway,
Jace is super underperforming, eh? Nahiri from 2016 was making more waves than Jace is right now. Some of you guys here were pretty right, in that you all compared Jace to Nahiri and said Jace would face similar issues.
Is Blue doing ok or is it in a little trouble? I genuinely can't tell. On my side of things, it feels like blue got worse with the addition of BBE. I have a feeling soon we won't be seeing Jace much at all. Well, not if things continue this well. I think the GP was the most likely to see someone crack a shell for him.
Jace is super underperforming, eh? Nahiri from 2016 was making more waves than Jace is right now. Some of you guys here were pretty right, in that you all compared Jace to Nahiri and said Jace would face similar issues.
Is Blue doing ok or is it in a little trouble? I genuinely can't tell. On my side of things, it feels like blue got worse with the addition of BBE. I have a feeling soon we won't be seeing Jace much at all. Well, not if things continue this well. I think the GP was the most likely to see someone crack a shell for him.
Don't remind me Nahiri. I wasn't able to buy the card early and I had to get 3 copies when the price had sky-rocketed because I did, as many others, believed what many pros claimed (including Jim Davis who otherwise I trust a lot): that Jeskai Nahiri was the best deck in the format. Played it in about 10 events, and now she is sitting comfortably in my binder, not seeing the light of day I tried to build Jeskai Nahiri again, but really, any other version of Jeskai was better.
Jace doesn't run in the same problem in the sense that he doesn't require 5 dedicated slots or a build around. Therefore he is much easier to include in any controlling build, also because he simply is the best blue finisher. However he does run indeed in the other problems that Nahiri faced which were: 1) clunky 4-drop that deals with the board situationally; 2) too slow against aggressive MUs.
So overall, Jace is definitely better than Nahiri, but, as many of us had said, the problems of control remain the same, with or without Jace.
nah jace isnt underperforming. 4 copies in the top 8 at the GP, and plenty in the top 32. its showing up in decks all over the place on mtgo leagues, and has been influential on all the paper tournaments thus far.
has it been underperforming relative to the claims that it would single handedly reshape modern around it? sure. but anyone who sat down and played with the card for a couple of hours could come to a similar conclusion.
jace is still probably the most powerful effect of its type available to fair(ish) decks playing blue. i dont see it disappearing from decks based on that alone.
blue reactive decks arent in trouble. they are in the same place they have always been. poorly positioned when the meta is in flux, and plagued by having to choose from a set of conditional responsive cards that can easily not line up with what your opponent is doing.
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I honestly feel like Jace is a lot better than his performance seems to indicate solely because BBE is so busted and is very heavily keeping Jace in check. We saw BBE Elves and BBE Humans do well this weekend which are shells where logically BBE really shouldn't be a good fit except that the card's power level is so high that at this point it probably literally goes in every deck that can produce green and red. I still suspect that in a world where JTMS was unbanned but BBE was not the card might have become oppressive, but with BBE in the format it makes it a lot harder for Jace decks to get an edge against fair creature based decks that have access to the elf.
I agree with tronix. We saw 7 Jace decks in the Top 32 at GP Phoenix last weekend: 2 Breach Moon, 1 Madcap Moon, 1 Blue Moon, 2 UW Control, and a Takin' Turns with 1 Jace. He's been decidedly OK; good enough to gain a few percentage points here and there but not really fixing the underlying issues that keep U-based control from being a consistent performer.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
I honestly feel like Jace is a lot better than his performance seems to indicate solely because BBE is so busted and is very heavily keeping Jace in check. We saw BBE Elves and BBE Humans do well this weekend which are shells where logically BBE really shouldn't be a good fit except that the card's power level is so high that at this point it probably literally goes in every deck that can produce green and red. I still suspect that in a world where JTMS was unbanned but BBE was not the card might have become oppressive, but with BBE in the format it makes it a lot harder for Jace decks to get an edge against fair creature based decks that have access to the elf.
This does not seem very likely given the other decks in Modern. From what we've seen on coverage and on Twitch, not to mention personal experiences cited by players, the issue is rarely JTMS losing out in grindy BBE wars. It's JTMS acting as four-mana Brainstorm against faster decks or sitting in hand for multiple turns while control players try to stabilize the board. That's not Jund keeping JTMS back from being dominant. That's the known linear element doing exactly what it is supposed to be doing in Modern. This underscores my extreme skepticism of the JTMS doomsayers. Even ignoring the unknown impact of BBE, which certainly does negatively affect JTMS, the existing format conditions were going to prevent him from taking over. People who did not see this a) missed something about Modern, b) missed something about JTMS, and/or c) just wanted clicks/views/upvotes at any cost. Those three possibilities should lead us to be very cautious about accepting their future claims. This is relevant because many of those same people have strong opinions about bans/unbans (among other topics), and we would be wise to tread lightly with their claims.
I'm a member of category A, but I'm still going to continue to vote that SFM should stay banned. At least there was a good argument to unvote Jace: Blue Control/Midrange needed a more powerful finisher. Same with BBE, in that Jund needed some help. I don't think SFM has a good enough argument to justify unbanning it.
I think, right or wrong, people fear having the format 'ruined' by the introduction of an unknown.
People thought Valakut would ruin things. It has not.
People thought Troll would ruin things. It did not (it was new standard cards).
People thought AV and Thopter/Sword would ruin things. They did not, and in fact they did nothing.
People thought Jace was the Anti-Christ, and the format was doomed, and Pro's were claiming they would jam 4 + Disrupting Shoal (even pro's who play control..) and that it was the end of Modern for anyone playing Green or White tier 2 value company....and we are not just fine, we are BETTER OFF.
If you watched this weekend, Modern has quite literally never been as diverse, never had as many different approaches be viable (not simply deck types, but macro level) and its simply amazing.
Would SFM have an impact? Sure, its very possible it would be more like BBE, than Jace. Like BBE, it would probably spawn a few decks. Like Jace however, this is a format that has a MASSIVE scope for adaptation. Where is Grixis of late? Nowhere. You bring in SFM? Who kills creatures and artifacts and disrupts better than Grixis? Nobody.
SFM, much like everything else in Modern would be a fine, powerful addition to the format.
I'm a member of category A, but I'm still going to continue to vote that SFM should stay banned. At least there was a good argument to unvote Jace: Blue Control/Midrange needed a more powerful finisher. Same with BBE, in that Jund needed some help. I don't think SFM has a good enough argument to justify unbanning it.
Wha?
White decks are in far worse shape than blue has ever been. The argument is that white deserves a powerful midrange finisher too, which basically every other color has in some fashion. Yeh, people would splash it, and there might even be a Naya BBE deck. If Jund wants to be 4c and get blood mooned I'm Ok with it.
SFM, much like everything else in Modern would be a fine, powerful addition to the format.
This is the correct way to put it. Yes, it is a tremendously powerful card, just like BBE, Jace, Karn, Mox Opal, Ancient Stirrings, etc. Modern can accept powerful cards. It is many people's reasoning for playing Modern in fact. I don't think it breaks anything. In fact, we may see that even if equipment sees more play initially, it could eventually die off. Maybe equipment in itself is just too slow for Modern? (I hate to think it because I think this could push equipment to see some play, but you never know.)
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Wizards has claimed they will not print equipment more powerful than the Sword's series. If thats true or false (and mistakes can be made) we could certainly use that as a benchmark.
Is a Turn 3 Sword in play going to break anything, Turn 4 Equip? Is it Batterskull people are afraid of? I mean honestly, its absurd.
Are people afraid that Control will not just be knocking at the door, but could actually be a threat to dominate?
For people who are concerned about SFM, what hypothetical is it that causes your worry? In a 'jace was unleashed...and we moved on' world, I just cannot muster the worry to even shrug if SFM comes off. I Snap K-Command and obliterate your card advantage. Woo! lol
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yeah i got no problem saying that i think innistrad is the best magic block ever. flavor, mechanics, everything. limited was a home run, and every standard season with it around was a blast. even when thragtusk was everywhere.
as for pros talking about jace. im sure some of them were driven by ulterior motives, but for the most part i think they were just writing what they genuinely think. gotta remember that a lot of them are good at the game, but that doesnt automatically translate into being able to assess cards, deckbuilding, and metagame analysis. sensationalist or not part of the blame falls on readers that just blindly follow or parrot what they say without thinking for themselves.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)As someone who was firmly in the 'unban Jace, look at Modern, it's not actually going to do anything' camp (and unlike some of the flip-flopping pros, my stance is pretty easy to find on here) please don't unban Dread Return. I am not exactly sure what would be the best way to break it, but it's not like AV or Jace or SFM or even something more powerful like Jitte (which is incredibly broken) it's not a card that is good and would go in a remotely healthy deck. If it saw any play, it would be in something more toxic that amped Dredge.
For people who don't play much, it's hard not to trust a Pro's opinion, rather than some guy on the internet that could be lying about playing 4-6 times per week. I say I go on Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays, and both weekends. But honestly as an outsider, I'd trust what a Pro says much more than someone like myself, even if some of the ideas actually do make sense. So, I don't think that you can necessarily blame others for trusting Pros.
Even my default when someone asks me something and I want it to correspond with what a Pro says is, "do you know what E Fro or so and so says?" I even jokingly told people that Brian Demars said Titanshift is Tier 3 or less while I won a PPTQ with the deck.
*Now on the other hand, someone like myself and Bocephus that play a heck of a lot of Modern, we are not just going to blindly trust what others say...anywhere. We trust our own experiences. I told people that Bloom Titan was Tier 1 for years, but people told me, "that's not how Tier 1 is determined." I don't care. I felt like the deck was as strong as Jund or Twin, so I put it in that same category. Sorry if that doesn't jive with what Hoogland or whoever says.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Spirits
Your lack of caring about the actual definition of Tier 1 does not mean something, when not meeting the definition, is somehow Tier 1. There may be some deck out there that has a 60/40 win rate or better against the entire format that no one's discovered... but until consistent results are posted with it, it's not Tier 1 despite its strength. Tiers are measures of results, not measures of strength.
Spirits
No one has gotten everything right, especially here on MTGS. Sorry to burst your bubble. I did not agree with everything that Bo said either. But I talked to him privately here, mostly about trying to ignore the hateful things others said to him. He did come off seemingly rude sometimes, but he was just being brutally honest. He never attacked anyone, at least from what I saw, and was attacked by many. What happens when you put someone in a corner? I found out that he played a lot during the week. I'm sure there are others here. I just don't "personally" know if they do or don't. He also helped me with speculating with Ancestral Vision. When I found out that he was sitting on literally 100s of copies, it made me not feel so good with my 3 play sets (and play set of foils). I STILL wish I had bought more than the 3 other play sets that I bought after talking to him...
I realize what Tier 1 means, but it doesn't mean I'm going to just say, "oh, MTGS says that Bloom Titan is not Tier 1, so I won't take this deck seriously." This deck has to be worse than every other Tier 1 deck. I label Tiers by power level and if there's a deck that's not played much, like Lantern Control *cough *cough and I think it's one of the 3 strongest decks, then I will call it Tier 1. I really don't care if never more than 5% plays the damn deck. While it's good to know that you won't run into the top deck too often, it also kind of diminishes the actual power of the deck in the hands of a good pilot.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Bocephus certainly loved to use the rolleyes emote, so let's not claim he never attacked anyone. As for the "many" attacking him, if someone says things that are absurd, like claiming that Stoneforge Mystic is more powerful than Tinker (a claim he made), then many people will naturally take issue with it.
I'm saying the attacks on him got personal. It should never come to this unless someone else made it personal, which I don't think he did. Its okay if you don't agree with me that Stoneforge Mystic should be unbanned. It's another thing to call me a stupid piece of ***** for living for it.
Some of the people that I agreed with the most were way too personal with him. If you don't believe him, that's fine. Part of me thinks that it's not possible to be part of a testing team. Part of me thinks that it's not likely to want to lie on the internet because it proves nothing to nobody. So, I'm undecided on that. But do you just have to say that everything that someone does is bull*****? Is that what it takes for someone to not just go out and have another ******* Columbine? If it is, then for Christ's sake, vent here. But otherwise, I think you can cut someone some slack. Even HE admits that we agreed on very little, but we didn't attack each other. I'm a grown man. I don't need to attack someone unless they threaten my family.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Honestly, I think people would've had much less of a problem with his odd claims if he hadn't constantly been drowning the banned list discussion threads with them.
At any rate, my point was that it seemed very odd to bring the guy up as some counterpoint to pros not knowing what they were talking about in Modern when he would make statements just as silly, if not sillier, than the goofy ones we've seen "pros" make about Modern. Like, look at that part about Valakut and Dark Depths I cited. If anyone on SCG said that, we'd all be on them for how dumb it was and out of touch they're in the format to make a claim like that (granted, said statement by him was from a year ago... but it was still silly back in March of 2017).
Anyway,
Jace is super underperforming, eh? Nahiri from 2016 was making more waves than Jace is right now. Some of you guys here were pretty right, in that you all compared Jace to Nahiri and said Jace would face similar issues.
Is Blue doing ok or is it in a little trouble? I genuinely can't tell. On my side of things, it feels like blue got worse with the addition of BBE. I have a feeling soon we won't be seeing Jace much at all. Well, not if things continue this well. I think the GP was the most likely to see someone crack a shell for him.
Jace doesn't run in the same problem in the sense that he doesn't require 5 dedicated slots or a build around. Therefore he is much easier to include in any controlling build, also because he simply is the best blue finisher. However he does run indeed in the other problems that Nahiri faced which were: 1) clunky 4-drop that deals with the board situationally; 2) too slow against aggressive MUs.
So overall, Jace is definitely better than Nahiri, but, as many of us had said, the problems of control remain the same, with or without Jace.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
has it been underperforming relative to the claims that it would single handedly reshape modern around it? sure. but anyone who sat down and played with the card for a couple of hours could come to a similar conclusion.
jace is still probably the most powerful effect of its type available to fair(ish) decks playing blue. i dont see it disappearing from decks based on that alone.
blue reactive decks arent in trouble. they are in the same place they have always been. poorly positioned when the meta is in flux, and plagued by having to choose from a set of conditional responsive cards that can easily not line up with what your opponent is doing.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
This does not seem very likely given the other decks in Modern. From what we've seen on coverage and on Twitch, not to mention personal experiences cited by players, the issue is rarely JTMS losing out in grindy BBE wars. It's JTMS acting as four-mana Brainstorm against faster decks or sitting in hand for multiple turns while control players try to stabilize the board. That's not Jund keeping JTMS back from being dominant. That's the known linear element doing exactly what it is supposed to be doing in Modern. This underscores my extreme skepticism of the JTMS doomsayers. Even ignoring the unknown impact of BBE, which certainly does negatively affect JTMS, the existing format conditions were going to prevent him from taking over. People who did not see this a) missed something about Modern, b) missed something about JTMS, and/or c) just wanted clicks/views/upvotes at any cost. Those three possibilities should lead us to be very cautious about accepting their future claims. This is relevant because many of those same people have strong opinions about bans/unbans (among other topics), and we would be wise to tread lightly with their claims.
People thought Valakut would ruin things. It has not.
People thought Troll would ruin things. It did not (it was new standard cards).
People thought AV and Thopter/Sword would ruin things. They did not, and in fact they did nothing.
People thought Jace was the Anti-Christ, and the format was doomed, and Pro's were claiming they would jam 4 + Disrupting Shoal (even pro's who play control..) and that it was the end of Modern for anyone playing Green or White tier 2 value company....and we are not just fine, we are BETTER OFF.
If you watched this weekend, Modern has quite literally never been as diverse, never had as many different approaches be viable (not simply deck types, but macro level) and its simply amazing.
Would SFM have an impact? Sure, its very possible it would be more like BBE, than Jace. Like BBE, it would probably spawn a few decks. Like Jace however, this is a format that has a MASSIVE scope for adaptation. Where is Grixis of late? Nowhere. You bring in SFM? Who kills creatures and artifacts and disrupts better than Grixis? Nobody.
SFM, much like everything else in Modern would be a fine, powerful addition to the format.
Spirits
Wha?
White decks are in far worse shape than blue has ever been. The argument is that white deserves a powerful midrange finisher too, which basically every other color has in some fashion. Yeh, people would splash it, and there might even be a Naya BBE deck. If Jund wants to be 4c and get blood mooned I'm Ok with it.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I would simply rotate to Grixis probably, and enjoy the beatings I would unleash with K-Command.
Spirits
Spirits
This is the correct way to put it. Yes, it is a tremendously powerful card, just like BBE, Jace, Karn, Mox Opal, Ancient Stirrings, etc. Modern can accept powerful cards. It is many people's reasoning for playing Modern in fact. I don't think it breaks anything. In fact, we may see that even if equipment sees more play initially, it could eventually die off. Maybe equipment in itself is just too slow for Modern? (I hate to think it because I think this could push equipment to see some play, but you never know.)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Is a Turn 3 Sword in play going to break anything, Turn 4 Equip? Is it Batterskull people are afraid of? I mean honestly, its absurd.
Are people afraid that Control will not just be knocking at the door, but could actually be a threat to dominate?
For people who are concerned about SFM, what hypothetical is it that causes your worry? In a 'jace was unleashed...and we moved on' world, I just cannot muster the worry to even shrug if SFM comes off. I Snap K-Command and obliterate your card advantage. Woo! lol
Spirits