I dont think I agree here headminerve, but I've only seen a few of the games so far.
Burn, completely different in again, what I've seen.
Elves, may as well be a combo deck in many regards.
Coco Decks, similar, and I'm not a huge fan, but CoCo is a spell. A wall of lands that tap for anything, and Cavern...well, thats a pretty solid difference.
Storm? Not in the least bit similar.
To me, (again I've only watched a few games) its much closer to Merfolk than anything else no? Also I have to admit, I loathe Thalia, so that may be what tips me over from it being just another deck, to 'eww Thalia' range of emotions. :]
How could anyone hate Thalia? She's one of the most wonderful, pro-fair creatures ever printed!
That said, you'd be right to observe that Humans is basically Merfolk that happen to also be small Eldrazi (also worth noting that Eldrazi are basically big merfolk with actual abilities instead of lords).
The common point with these decks are they're linear, and you seem to consider Merfolk and Humans as "I play my spells proactively and I win, this is brainless". Which is the case for the decks I mention and many more. I only don't understand what you blame the deck for if not its linear aspect it shares with combo and aggro decks overall.
Actually Humans interact way more than Merfolk does, and way more than Storm or Elves do. That's why it's somewhat comparable to Burn or even Spell Queller and D&T decks. I also maintain you can briefly compare Humans to Storm in the sense Humans dump permanents while Storm dumps sorceries and instants. Infect dumps pump spells, Coco decks dump creatures until a combo shows up, etc... Linear and proactive.
I'm not saying those decks are similar in the way they play, or the experience you need to master either, although I saw David Williams misplay at least twice in one match, so that may ring a bell.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
I'm not saying its brainless, just an initial read on what I feel after a few games observed thats all.
I bought into the deck super-early before any of the cards spiked in price and practiced a bit with my mates, not dropping a single match.
Then I took it to a GP side event and immediately scrubbed out, and realising how little experience I had with the deck was a real slap in the face. There's a lot of small decisions and lines in the humans deck which make the difference between winning and losing. Having played a lot of elves I'd say it's way above the elf deck in terms of complexity. It seems more complex than decks like scapeshift (which have their own type of complexity to them). Burn is a deceptively tricky deck and humans is probably above burn as well.
I'd put it somewhere around hatebears or death & taxes, but not as complex as affinity.
I really like the deck bit actually found it fairly tricky to play optimally. Maybe I'm being too harsh on myself I don't know. I can play Tron almost perfectly, just from sheer amount of reps. I'm not too bad with rug scapeshift either (but nobody plays that deck anymore). Maybe i'm not used to the aggro/disruptive style but I found myself making weird subtle errors all the time and losing edges where I should be gaining them.
Day 1 is EXCEEDINGLY healthy by basically every metric. Day 2 obviously matters more, but this at least means not everyone showed up with one of about five linear decks and just expected to face roll with them. Also, Day 1 metagame breakdowns are excellent because we'll be able to see Day 2 conversion rates and then conversion rates to X-4, X-3, X-2, X-1, and the Modern-only T8. This will be an important performance metric in the absence of other metrics from Wizards. I am also sure we can deep-dive some MWP data from this when the PT is over.
Also, that list of most-played cards at the PT is awesome. What a great addition. I will note that the top 11 cards are almost all interactive or lands (they are ALL interactive if you count SV).
I don't know how much stock, if any, we can put into the diversity on Day 1. All that data tells us is what people showed up with to play, it says nothing of results which are the important thing. Don't forget that Day 1--and even Day 2!--of Pro Tour Eldrazi had a diverse-looking metagame.
Day 1 is EXCEEDINGLY healthy by basically every metric. Day 2 obviously matters more, but this at least means not everyone showed up with one of about five linear decks and just expected to face roll with them. Also, Day 1 metagame breakdowns are excellent because we'll be able to see Day 2 conversion rates and then conversion rates to X-4, X-3, X-2, X-1, and the Modern-only T8. This will be an important performance metric in the absence of other metrics from Wizards. I am also sure we can deep-dive some MWP data from this when the PT is over.
Also, that list of most-played cards at the PT is awesome. What a great addition. I will note that the top 11 cards are almost all interactive or lands (they are ALL interactive if you count SV).
I don't know how much stock, if any, we can put into the diversity on Day 1. All that data tells us is what people showed up with to play, it says nothing of results which are the important thing. Don't forget that Day 1--and even Day 2!--of Pro Tour Eldrazi had a diverse-looking metagame.
The real indicator will be the X-2 Modern decks (or better), aka the best performing decks.
Greetings,
Kathal
Agreed, which is why I said basically that in my post. The top Modern-only decks, and the Day 2 before that, are obviously the better indicators of health. But it's a great start that Day 1 was diverse to begin with and we didn't just see everyone come and jam Tron or something. I guarantee that if we saw that, the community would be immediately up in arms and there would be no qualified discussion of "well, it's just Day 1."
Did anyone see a breakdown of who is on what deck? I know sometimes this gets figured out by the end of Day 1, at least for big name players. I'd love to see it too.
Have we ever seen a big paper tournament (PT or otherwise) that wasn't diverse on day 1?
PT FRF was like 30% Abzan and 12% Burn. Not super diverse.
Again, Day 1 diversity is just one indicator. Like I said, if Day 1 was 30% Tron, chat and forums would have EXPLODED. I also suspect quite a few people thought that was going to happen. Given that, Day 1 is a good start.
What we saw was the 2 extremes of Tron. In one match, the UR player bricked pretty hard. And in the other match Finkel bricked pretty hard himself in game 3, not being able to assemble Tron 6 turns into the game.
Not really good examples to draw conclusions of Tron's power level with.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Hallow One decks had only 6 players and 5 made it to day 2. That's pretty interesting to say the least. Otherwise, not incredibly impressed with the lineup of decks. Jeskai Control is back, though.
The problem I'm seeing illustrated is the age old one of having three types of decks that are fairly linear take up the field just by sheer numbers. Namely, Combo, Big Mana, and Aggro. Meanwhile, mid-range and control, while providing more interesting games to watch, take up far less. It's basically 2 to 1 on non-interactive rush vs decks that have some prioritization to defensive game play going by the numbers in the conversion article.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
How could anyone hate Thalia? She's one of the most wonderful, pro-fair creatures ever printed!
That said, you'd be right to observe that Humans is basically Merfolk that happen to also be small Eldrazi (also worth noting that Eldrazi are basically big merfolk with actual abilities instead of lords).
Spirits
Actually Humans interact way more than Merfolk does, and way more than Storm or Elves do. That's why it's somewhat comparable to Burn or even Spell Queller and D&T decks. I also maintain you can briefly compare Humans to Storm in the sense Humans dump permanents while Storm dumps sorceries and instants. Infect dumps pump spells, Coco decks dump creatures until a combo shows up, etc... Linear and proactive.
I'm not saying those decks are similar in the way they play, or the experience you need to master either, although I saw David Williams misplay at least twice in one match, so that may ring a bell.
Spirits
I bought into the deck super-early before any of the cards spiked in price and practiced a bit with my mates, not dropping a single match.
Then I took it to a GP side event and immediately scrubbed out, and realising how little experience I had with the deck was a real slap in the face. There's a lot of small decisions and lines in the humans deck which make the difference between winning and losing. Having played a lot of elves I'd say it's way above the elf deck in terms of complexity. It seems more complex than decks like scapeshift (which have their own type of complexity to them). Burn is a deceptively tricky deck and humans is probably above burn as well.
I'd put it somewhere around hatebears or death & taxes, but not as complex as affinity.
I really like the deck bit actually found it fairly tricky to play optimally. Maybe I'm being too harsh on myself I don't know. I can play Tron almost perfectly, just from sheer amount of reps. I'm not too bad with rug scapeshift either (but nobody plays that deck anymore). Maybe i'm not used to the aggro/disruptive style but I found myself making weird subtle errors all the time and losing edges where I should be gaining them.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Agreed, which is why I said basically that in my post. The top Modern-only decks, and the Day 2 before that, are obviously the better indicators of health. But it's a great start that Day 1 was diverse to begin with and we didn't just see everyone come and jam Tron or something. I guarantee that if we saw that, the community would be immediately up in arms and there would be no qualified discussion of "well, it's just Day 1."
Did anyone see a breakdown of who is on what deck? I know sometimes this gets figured out by the end of Day 1, at least for big name players. I'd love to see it too.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Define "big".
Also, the entirety of Eldrazi Winter.
PT FRF was like 30% Abzan and 12% Burn. Not super diverse.
Again, Day 1 diversity is just one indicator. Like I said, if Day 1 was 30% Tron, chat and forums would have EXPLODED. I also suspect quite a few people thought that was going to happen. Given that, Day 1 is a good start.
Spirits
If it's like every other PT, it will be 3 more rounds of draft before we see Modern again.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Spirits
Currently working on making the best Time Warp deck in here: Taking Turns
And then when he loses to Abzan while on Tron, you start to wonder if it is too strong after all.
Currently working on making the best Time Warp deck in here: Taking Turns
Yuuya's opponent kept a one-lander game 2 and never hit a second blue source to use under Blood Moon. That's not really conducive for a good game.
Not really good examples to draw conclusions of Tron's power level with.
The problem I'm seeing illustrated is the age old one of having three types of decks that are fairly linear take up the field just by sheer numbers. Namely, Combo, Big Mana, and Aggro. Meanwhile, mid-range and control, while providing more interesting games to watch, take up far less. It's basically 2 to 1 on non-interactive rush vs decks that have some prioritization to defensive game play going by the numbers in the conversion article.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W