So now we have a healthy Day 1, a healthy Day 2, and a healthy overall PT T8. All that's left is to see what the top-performing Modern decks are (we already have the standings by format but still need all the decks). Those will probably look awesome too. We have ZERO big mana in the overall T8 and 5 fundamentally interactive decks. And we have Reid Duke with the 4th overall Modern performance on the allegedly defunct Abzan, who beat Tron at least twice en route to his finish. Guess skillful players beat bad matchups after all at the highest level.
Hopefully this puts an end to all but the bitterest Modern complainers and their incessant criticism of the format. I'm sure there is a subset that will continue to tear down Modern and top-performing interactive decks because it doesn't perfectly fit the exact deck and experience they want, but the overall format is excellent. Not only can you play any kind of deck you want, but you can basically do well with any kind of deck you want. When we see Mardu Pyromancer, Abzan, JDS, and Lantern all succeeding into the T8, it's clear that interaction is completely viable in Modern and that bad matchups can be overcome.
Well, we also have the tried and true folly of peoples Top 8 placements decided on by Draft performances, but other than that, the Modern portion was really great to watch.
The thing many of us may have qualms with is whether or not Wizards see this and decides to act on its implied hint to unban something. Modern is in a "good" spot, but it can always be improved upon.
Re: 50/50 decks
If you want this deck, go play Legacy. It's the only format where it is allowed to exist the longest because Wizards has minimal oversight of the format. But the last deck that did this, Miracles, did eventually eat a ban. So even there it's not a guarantee.
Ehhhhh, not exactly.
"In Legacy, Miracles—a deck that is focused on combining Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top to control what opponents can or (mostly) cannot resolve—has been the best deck in the format for some time. We were hopeful that this would change over time, but it has not. That alone is not necessarily enough to move to ban a card from the deck, but Sensei's Divining Top comes with its own host of issues that center around the timely conclusion of matches in a tournament setting. The necessity of repeated Top activations to play the card slows down match play and leads to tournament delays. Coupled with the power of the Miracles deck, this is reason enough for us to take action on Top. Therefore, Sensei's Divining Top is banned in Legacy."
Well, we also have the tried and true folly of peoples Top 8 placements decided on by Draft performances, but other than that, the Modern portion was really great to watch.
We already know Duke was the 4th highest performing Modern player, and he played Abzan (a deck many of us thought was dead/bad), beating two Tron en route to his finish. Interactive decks are good if you are a good player. If you are not succeeding with such decks, one should not blame their matchups and instead investigate personal skill deficits.
The thing many of us may have qualms with is whether or not Wizards see this and decides to act on its implied hint to unban something. Modern is in a "good" spot, but it can always be improved upon.
I have no issue with reasonable unban suggestions. If Modern is good, that's a great time to unban.
Ehhhhh, not exactly.
"In Legacy, Miracles—a deck that is focused on combining Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top to control what opponents can or (mostly) cannot resolve—has been the best deck in the format for some time. We were hopeful that this would change over time, but it has not. That alone is not necessarily enough to move to ban a card from the deck, but Sensei's Divining Top comes with its own host of issues that center around the timely conclusion of matches in a tournament setting. The necessity of repeated Top activations to play the card slows down match play and leads to tournament delays. Coupled with the power of the Miracles deck, this is reason enough for us to take action on Top. Therefore, Sensei's Divining Top is banned in Legacy."
I pretty clearly never said that Miracles was banned because it was a 50/50 deck. 50/50 decks just tend to have other problems going on with them that lead to them being banned. This happened in Modern, Standard, and Legacy.
Well, we also have the tried and true folly of peoples Top 8 placements decided on by Draft performances, but other than that, the Modern portion was really great to watch.
We already know Duke was the 4th highest performing Modern player, and he played Abzan (a deck many of us thought was dead/bad), beating two Tron en route to his finish. Interactive decks are good if you are a good player. If you are not succeeding with such decks, one should not blame their matchups and instead investigate personal skill deficits.
Of the top 22 players in Modern, only 2 of them made it to the Top 8. The others (beginning at spot #23), were outplayed in Modern by 20 other people that did not make Top 8. Draft absolutely decided this placement.
I pretty clearly never said that Miracles was banned because it was a 50/50 deck. 50/50 decks just tend to have other problems going on with them that lead to them being banned. This happened in Modern, Standard, and Legacy.
So then we agree: there is nothing inherently wrong with a deck being "50/50." It is only when a deck creates OTHER problems (or perceived problems) that it ever actually becomes an issue worth addressing. It's the "broken tail light" or "missing front plate" excuse to tack onto the real reason for the ticket.
Edit: also, being a "50/50 deck" and being "the best deck" are not synonymous.
I dont know man, if someone breaks down the numbers and we see UWR was close (Top 16) this weekend, I'm just not going to hold out hope. I'm having fun with the pure Control UWR (I love Search for Azcanta...) right now and would take an upgrade of course, but I just dont see it coming.
I dont know man, if someone breaks down the numbers and we see UWR was close (Top 16) this weekend, I'm just not going to hold out hope. I'm having fun with the pure Control UWR (I love Search for Azcanta...) right now and would take an upgrade of course, but I just dont see it coming.
I've started to go through the decks - but there are a few missing data points we should get tomorrow. But jeskai isn't near the top unless most of the ponts I'm missing are that. UW in the hands of Gabriel Nassif and Grixis in the hands of Corey Burkhart seem to be the best (Edit I meant control) performers.
Of the top 22 players in Modern, only 2 of them made it to the Top 8. The others (beginning at spot #23), were outplayed in Modern by 20 other people that did not make Top 8. Draft absolutely decided this placement.
That's not a huge revelation. In fact, we've said this for months. I can quote at least three of my posts that said this is an issue with the overall PT T8, and I can't think of any regular poster to this forum that didn't either say this explicitly or imply it. I just don't understand why you keep throwing up caveats based on things we already know. It's like you are (at best) supremely skeptical of anything that doesn't fit your experience and (at worst) you are just trying to discredit tournament results you don't like.
So then we agree: there is nothing inherently wrong with a deck being "50/50." It is only when a deck creates OTHER problems (or perceived problems) that it ever actually becomes an issue worth addressing. It's the "broken tail light" or "missing front plate" excuse to tack onto the real reason for the ticket.
Edit: also, being a "50/50 deck" and being "the best deck" are not synonymous.
There is nothing theoretically wrong with a theoretical 50/50 deck. It's just that basically all the actual 50/50 decks become problems. This is mostly true through the history of Magic, let alone Modern and recent formats.
After the Conversion rate to Day 2, I just really want to know what happened to ETron and UWR, those numbers were solid, to all fall to what eventually hit top 8??
Of the top 22 players in Modern, only 2 of them made it to the Top 8. The others (beginning at spot #23), were outplayed in Modern by 20 other people that did not make Top 8. Draft absolutely decided this placement.
That's not a huge revelation. In fact, we've said this for months. I can quote at least three of my posts that said this is an issue with the overall PT T8, and I can't think of any regular poster to this forum that didn't either say this explicitly or imply it. I just don't understand why you keep throwing up caveats based on things we already know. It's like you are (at best) supremely skeptical of anything that doesn't fit your experience and (at worst) you are just trying to discredit tournament results you don't like.
I have consistently criticized Pro Tour results with this exact same reasoning for several years. However good or bad any PT Top 8 looks, I have never held any other stance on them. I have also always heavily criticized Wizards for placing so much importance on the constructed format of an event in which nearly 40% of your record has nothing to do with that constructed format. I have frequently excluded any PT results from many discussions for exactly this reason.
The Modern portion of this event was absolutely fantastic. But it also suffers the same problem EVERY PT has, which is being skewed heavily by Draft results. Moving forward, Wizards should take a cue from the massive popularity and viewership and create a PT-like event just for Modern. Earn your way in, the same way you would with a PT, and let the best battle each other in 15 (or 16) rounds of all-Modern.
After the Conversion rate to Day 2, I just really want to know what happened to ETron and UWR, those numbers were solid, to all fall to what eventually hit top 8??
I need those details.
Because the decks are extremely susceptible to bad matchups?
Or the pilots did poorly in Draft.
We won't know until we get a breakdown of the X-4 or better lists.
Corey as the exception proving the rule again? Colour me surprised.
The guy is insane! At this point I think he's the poster child for play what you know in modern (potentially closely followed by Reid 'I play BGx' Duke)
Yeah it would be auto include into blue based tempo/control/(combo?) and looking at the day 2 conversion rates...I dont think anything gets unbanned and counterspell likely puts Uxx decks over the top.
I'm not so sure that counter spell would do that. The reality is that the choice to weaken counter magic is more due to casual play. If there are two things people hate in magic, it's when someone picks cards out of their hand or counters stuff.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Worth pointing out: Bloodbraid Elf isn't a good fit for any of the decks that went 6-4 or better. I guess the 4-color Death's Shadow decks could play it, but it really isn't a good fit for them with its high CMC.
Sheridan, are you saying Abzan isn't bad or dead because Reid duke did well?
I'm rooting for him, but the archetype is barely hanging on
I'm sure it's still bad for most players. Reid Duke is just really good at Magic and playing midrange in Modern, so he can overcome some of its bad matchups. But that basically took him 10 years of BGx Midrange practice to get to that point (as he alluded to in his profile page). The majority of BGx Midrange players would be unlikely to have his success on the deck. That's fine; we can't all be as good as Reid Duke. If the bar to Abzan success is "be as good as Reid Duke," Abzan and BGx probably need a bit of help.
Sheridan, are you saying Abzan isn't bad or dead because Reid duke did well?
I'm rooting for him, but the archetype is barely hanging on
I'm sure it's still bad for most players. Reid Duke is just really good at Magic and playing midrange in Modern, so he can overcome some of its bad matchups. But that basically took him 10 years of BGx Midrange practice to get to that point (as he alluded to in his profile page). The majority of BGx Midrange players would be unlikely to have his success on the deck. That's fine; we can't all be as good as Reid Duke. If the bar to Abzan success is "be as good as Reid Duke," Abzan and BGx probably need a bit of help.
I feel I should point out that it's honestly a bit of a stretch to call his deck Abzan. It's really just a BG Rock deck with a White splash for Lingering Souls (and Stony Silence in the sideboard).
Sheridan, are you saying Abzan isn't bad or dead because Reid duke did well?
I'm rooting for him, but the archetype is barely hanging on
I'm sure it's still bad for most players. Reid Duke is just really good at Magic and playing midrange in Modern, so he can overcome some of its bad matchups. But that basically took him 10 years of BGx Midrange practice to get to that point (as he alluded to in his profile page). The majority of BGx Midrange players would be unlikely to have his success on the deck. That's fine; we can't all be as good as Reid Duke. If the bar to Abzan success is "be as good as Reid Duke," Abzan and BGx probably need a bit of help.
Haha, ok, good response, I can agree with your post.
I actually think this top 8 looks good for Reid Duke if he can avoid his first matchup of Hollow One being too explosive.
Well, we also have the tried and true folly of peoples Top 8 placements decided on by Draft performances, but other than that, the Modern portion was really great to watch.
The thing many of us may have qualms with is whether or not Wizards see this and decides to act on its implied hint to unban something. Modern is in a "good" spot, but it can always be improved upon.
Ehhhhh, not exactly.
"In Legacy, Miracles—a deck that is focused on combining Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top to control what opponents can or (mostly) cannot resolve—has been the best deck in the format for some time. We were hopeful that this would change over time, but it has not. That alone is not necessarily enough to move to ban a card from the deck, but Sensei's Divining Top comes with its own host of issues that center around the timely conclusion of matches in a tournament setting. The necessity of repeated Top activations to play the card slows down match play and leads to tournament delays. Coupled with the power of the Miracles deck, this is reason enough for us to take action on Top. Therefore, Sensei's Divining Top is banned in Legacy."
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
We already know Duke was the 4th highest performing Modern player, and he played Abzan (a deck many of us thought was dead/bad), beating two Tron en route to his finish. Interactive decks are good if you are a good player. If you are not succeeding with such decks, one should not blame their matchups and instead investigate personal skill deficits.
I have no issue with reasonable unban suggestions. If Modern is good, that's a great time to unban.
I pretty clearly never said that Miracles was banned because it was a 50/50 deck. 50/50 decks just tend to have other problems going on with them that lead to them being banned. This happened in Modern, Standard, and Legacy.
Spirits
Skullclamp /jk
It purely depends on the respective player. Some would want Jace, Stoneforge and BBE, others would look at DTT, Dark Depths or Preordain.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Of the top 22 players in Modern, only 2 of them made it to the Top 8. The others (beginning at spot #23), were outplayed in Modern by 20 other people that did not make Top 8. Draft absolutely decided this placement.
So then we agree: there is nothing inherently wrong with a deck being "50/50." It is only when a deck creates OTHER problems (or perceived problems) that it ever actually becomes an issue worth addressing. It's the "broken tail light" or "missing front plate" excuse to tack onto the real reason for the ticket.
Edit: also, being a "50/50 deck" and being "the best deck" are not synonymous.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I would like to play DTT, Preordain, Twin, and Jace.
However its really tough to say those would not break the format.
Spirits
Any one of those probably wouldn't. Any two or more probably would.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Spirits
I've started to go through the decks - but there are a few missing data points we should get tomorrow. But jeskai isn't near the top unless most of the ponts I'm missing are that. UW in the hands of Gabriel Nassif and Grixis in the hands of Corey Burkhart seem to be the best (Edit I meant control) performers.
Legacy - LED Dredge, ANT & WDnT
Spirits
That's not a huge revelation. In fact, we've said this for months. I can quote at least three of my posts that said this is an issue with the overall PT T8, and I can't think of any regular poster to this forum that didn't either say this explicitly or imply it. I just don't understand why you keep throwing up caveats based on things we already know. It's like you are (at best) supremely skeptical of anything that doesn't fit your experience and (at worst) you are just trying to discredit tournament results you don't like.
There is nothing theoretically wrong with a theoretical 50/50 deck. It's just that basically all the actual 50/50 decks become problems. This is mostly true through the history of Magic, let alone Modern and recent formats.
I need those details.
Spirits
I have consistently criticized Pro Tour results with this exact same reasoning for several years. However good or bad any PT Top 8 looks, I have never held any other stance on them. I have also always heavily criticized Wizards for placing so much importance on the constructed format of an event in which nearly 40% of your record has nothing to do with that constructed format. I have frequently excluded any PT results from many discussions for exactly this reason.
The Modern portion of this event was absolutely fantastic. But it also suffers the same problem EVERY PT has, which is being skewed heavily by Draft results. Moving forward, Wizards should take a cue from the massive popularity and viewership and create a PT-like event just for Modern. Earn your way in, the same way you would with a PT, and let the best battle each other in 15 (or 16) rounds of all-Modern.
Because the decks are extremely susceptible to bad matchups?
Or the pilots did poorly in Draft.
We won't know until we get a breakdown of the X-4 or better lists.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
The guy is insane! At this point I think he's the poster child for play what you know in modern (potentially closely followed by Reid 'I play BGx' Duke)
Legacy - LED Dredge, ANT & WDnT
I'm not so sure that counter spell would do that. The reality is that the choice to weaken counter magic is more due to casual play. If there are two things people hate in magic, it's when someone picks cards out of their hand or counters stuff.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Links for top modern only decklists
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
There was one UW as foretold list. You can see the full metagame here https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/ptrix/day-one-metagame-breakdown-2018-02-02
I'm rooting for him, but the archetype is barely hanging on
I'm sure it's still bad for most players. Reid Duke is just really good at Magic and playing midrange in Modern, so he can overcome some of its bad matchups. But that basically took him 10 years of BGx Midrange practice to get to that point (as he alluded to in his profile page). The majority of BGx Midrange players would be unlikely to have his success on the deck. That's fine; we can't all be as good as Reid Duke. If the bar to Abzan success is "be as good as Reid Duke," Abzan and BGx probably need a bit of help.
7x Grixis Shadow
7x 5-Color Humans
6x Burn
5x Affinity
3x Eldrazi Tron
3x U/W Control
3x Grixis Control
3x Abzan
3x Mardu Pyromancer
3x G-Tron
2x Storm
2x Lantern
2x Jeskai Control (Geist/Queller version)
2x Hollow One
2x 4-Color Shadow no blue
1x WB Zombies (with 4 Copter and 4 Dread Wanderer!)
1x Bant Knightfall
1x Titanshift
1x Madcap Moon
1x R/G Eldrazi
1x Dredge
1x Living End
1x KCI Combo
1x GB Tron
1x Bogles
1x W/B Eldrazi (not exactly Taxes, with Stillmoon Cavalier SB)
1x 4-Color Shadow no white (with Delay and Hostage Taker SB)
1x UR Thing
Total Shadow: 10
Total Trons: 7
Unless I miss counted somewhere.
http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/13649 - My all foil cube.
Haha, ok, good response, I can agree with your post.
I actually think this top 8 looks good for Reid Duke if he can avoid his first matchup of Hollow One being too explosive.
EDIT: SO MUCH SKILL ON DISPLAY