I reckon Mardu would benefit the most. It has access to K-Command for opposing SFM and plenty of tokens to use the Equipment(s) as efficiently as possible, alongside a slew of discard spells to strip the answers out of the opponents hand.
There's a huge difference of tutoring these equipment and putting them into play for only 2 mana
Not if we are talking about the swords. You can already tutor them and play them with steelshaper's gift for the same cost as playing SFM and using her to put it into play. Sure, it doesn't come with a 1/2 body, but that doesn't make something go from unplayable to broken. The only thing we are talking about here is the batterskull.
There's a chance that it can push creature decks out of the format even more, especially if they dont run B or W to deal with Batterskull.
This has been posted before, not by me, but the risk is pretty high for a low reward, to unban SFM in Modern. Several things can happen, like warping the format around her and pushing interactive non-linear strategies out.
Lastly, to be honest, SFM lets you play a 4/4 Vigilance Lifelink for 4 mana split in two, its simply not just a 4/4 on turn 4. So thats only a 2 mana investment per turn. This is probably something the Jeskai control decks would like to use as a finisher to act as a a pseudo non-flying Celestial Colonnade for 2 mana with Lifelink.
The Jeskai control lists going around right now use a single secure the wastes and a single torrential gearhulk as their nonland finishers. That's quite a few slots that would have to open up to incorporate a SFM package, and they would only be in the market for batterskull. You probably aren't playing swords in a deck with 8 creatures and no token producers. If you are, you are just opening yourself up to more inconsistency. I'm sure a jeskai deck using SFM would appear, but I don't believe the current lists we are seeing would disappear all together.
I still think Orzhov and Abzan would benefit the most from SFM because they can use the preemptive protection of discard which suites her so well, while jeskai would have to slow roll her to protect her with counters.
Still, I dont agree with your first point and it hardly holds up. Why isn't Steelshaper's Gift played in Legacy and SFM is? It's not because of Umezawa's Jitte. Because a bad card is bad, and a good card is good.
Your second point about the answers to Batterskull. Yes, there are a multitude of answers to every single card in MTG, I get that. But you are talking about very narrow cards. There's reasons why Path to Exile and Fatal Push are so good, which is the reason for my initial comment about needing B and W to deal with it. You are also talking about side board cards compared to easily main deck cards when you include Naturalize, Smash to Smithereens, and Abrade (Vapor Snag is very mediocre and Simic Charm is just bad, as well as many other cards that can deal with Batter skull, but you get my point).
Sword of the Meek and to an extent, Thopter Foundry are very different cards than Stoneforge Mystic, with Legacy yet again to look for proof.
As for your final statement about Azban and Orzhov decks benefitting more than Jeskai, I probably agree. The point is, SFM is pretty darn flexible. I'm not fully against the unban, but if Modern wasn't in such a good place, then I'd be more for it
So taxes decks would maybe play them as a transformative sideboard package or cobble together maybe 3 in the main to reduce the effects of the arbiter non-bo. Maybe even 2x but I can't see people (beyond an initial rush to play with the card) actually settling on playset of both arbiter and SFM
So then you have to ask; if SFM is (according to most people here) a likely candidate in taxes as a sort of figurehead for the card, and taxes will only run two (or board them in) how exactly is this any sort of problem card too powerful to unleash?
Don't get me wrong I have my playset already and if they get unbanned I'm 100% jamming it until the cows come home but even though I love the card I can see it's a fairly durdly option in modern. Decent, high-value, low-cost but durdly. The best place I can figure for it actually making some serious waves would be some kind of jeskai deck that would value a Multi-purpose threat and be able to protect it fairly well. Is that so bad?
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
SFM is not a SB card and it's certainly not a transformation sideboard card. Giving up 6 slots of your sideboard for a card that isn't specifically breaking in any matchups is never going to happen. Most likely Taxes decks will evolve another version with SFM perhaps with Blood Moon and one version will prove superior, but it won't be in the SB.
Steelshaper's gift isn't played because they already have SFM.
Cards are only bad or sideboard cards in the context of a meta. If SFM became 50% of the meta, then all of a sudden abrade and vapor snag don't look so bad. Similarly, you cannot say "look at legacy for proof" when the meta's are completely different.
I really don't see how sword of the meek and SFM can be all that different when the arguments against them are exactly the same. They supposedly stifle fair creature strategies. We saw that one absolutely does not, and the other has never been given a chance. We've seen time and time again cards come of the original ban list and have minimal impact. The format itself, as well as WotC' understanding of it, are greatly superior to the early days of modern. I'm still not holding my breath but don't be surprised if it is unbanned.
Not trying to berate you, just getting some honest discussion on the card here but I must say, I remain unconvinced. I can tell you are as well, so on this point we will just have to agree to disagree.
Still, I dont agree with your first point and it hardly holds up. Why isn't Steelshaper's Gift played in Legacy and SFM is? It's not because of Umezawa's Jitte. Because a bad card is bad, and a good card is good.
Your second point about the answers to Batterskull. Yes, there are a multitude of answers to every single card in MTG, I get that. But you are talking about very narrow cards. There's reasons why Path to Exile and Fatal Push are so good, which is the reason for my initial comment about needing B and W to deal with it. You are also talking about side board cards compared to easily main deck cards when you include Naturalize, Smash to Smithereens, and Abrade (Vapor Snag is very mediocre and Simic Charm is just bad, as well as many other cards that can deal with Batter skull, but you get my point).
Sword of the Meek and to an extent, Thopter Foundry are very different cards than Stoneforge Mystic, with Legacy yet again to look for proof.
As for your final statement about Azban and Orzhov decks benefitting more than Jeskai, I probably agree. The point is, SFM is pretty darn flexible. I'm not fully against the unban, but if Modern wasn't in such a good place, then I'd be more for it
So your biggest issue with SFM is that it could create a new Esper Control archetype that tries to win off the back of SFM + Batterskull backed up by a bunch of counterspells and discard. At least, that is what I have gathered from reading the past page or so of comments.
SO first off, I will agree that SFM + Batterskull is a good combo. There is no doubt about it. Hell the entire interaction is why we are debating whether or not SFM should be unbanned in Modern or not. However, there are a few things about Modern that honestly keep the power of SFM in check.
1) No access to Umezawa's Jitte. Every single Legacy deck that runs SFM runs Jitte. And except in very specific scenarios, the pilot is going to grab Jitte before Batterskull. The true power of SFM in Legacy is that it is able to get a Jitte onto the board in a way that can't be stopped by Fore of Will. Batterskull is in because it is a very good equipment to pair with SFM since for 5 mana you can bounce it and re-deploy it without it getting countered, all at instant speed. Jitte being banned in Modern means that SFM only really has access to the Batterskull combo, which while very good, is nowhere near as powerful as what the card is mainly used for in Legacy.
2) Counterspells in Modern suck. If you look at the stats on MTGGoldfish, you'll find that in basically every deck that plays SFM that isn't D&T runs SFM alongside Force of Will. Now I don't know about you, but having a card that lets your cheat equipment into play, and being able to protect it with the best counterspell in the game, is a pretty good way to make a card more powerful. In Modern, let's say you play SFM on turn 2. You have no way to stop your opponent from using Fatal Push, Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile, Dismember, hell even Warping Wail to destroy your creature. At that point you have an expensive equipment in hand, and no creature to equip it to. In this instance, SFM is essentially a Steelshaper's Gift. Now granted, there will definitely be games where your opponent doesn't have the removal spell and you can untap with mystic. What then? Mana Leak, Remand? Literally the best thing I can think up (and admittedly it does seem like a good combo) is in response to removal to get Batterskull into play, get your 4/4 token and then use Stubborn Denial. I mean that uses a lot of resources. SFM is simply made a lot weaker in Modern by the fact that there are a lot fewer ways to protect it.
3) Modern is doing more powerful things than playing a 4/4 with vigilance and lifelink on turn 3. Gurmag Angler, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Death's Shadow, Reality Smasher, and Primeval Titan all laugh hysterically at Batterskull. Angler and Tasigur can be played on turn 2, Smasher and Titan can be played anywhere between Turns 3 and 4, and don't even get me started on cards like Karn Liberated that come down turn 3 to ruin your day, or the entirety of the Storm deck. Modern as a format is just more powerful than having SFM and a Batterskull. Again, don't get me wrong. SFM and Batterskull are good, and they are powerful. But in the company of giants, it is more likely to be another measly giant standing among them as opposed to being the colossus towering over them.
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
We need to really look at the point being made here, Torrential Gearhulk and Secure the Wastes are not Modern Staples, they appear in less than 25% of the current posted decklists. You need to compare Stoneforge Mystic to the current competitive slot, which is Geist of Saint Traft coming in at 57% as a 3x in the posted decklists. Jeskai would run 4x Stoneforge to have a competitive chance to gain tempo on the unfair decks.
There are a ton of smart people on this thread, we cannot allow basic and obvious misunderstanding of the Modern format to skew how we view individual cards.
In order to reach the best version of "diversity" is to clarify what that term means. What we do know, is that WotC have acknowledged Archetypes, Color, and Sideboard Slots. What they prioritize, no one knows for sure.
Steelshaper's gift isn't played because they already have SFM.
Cards are only bad or sideboard cards in the context of a meta. If SFM became 50% of the meta, then all of a sudden abrade and vapor snag don't look so bad. Similarly, you cannot say "look at legacy for proof" when the meta's are completely different.
I really don't see how sword of the meek and SFM can be all that different when the arguments against them are exactly the same. They supposedly stifle fair creature strategies. We saw that one absolutely does not, and the other has never been given a chance. We've seen time and time again cards come of the original ban list and have minimal impact. The format itself, as well as WotC' understanding of it, are greatly superior to the early days of modern. I'm still not holding my breath but don't be surprised if it is unbanned.
Not trying to berate you, just getting some honest discussion on the card here but I must say, I remain unconvinced. I can tell you are as well, so on this point we will just have to agree to disagree.
Very narrow cards possibly could become meta. This is my point, theres a chance she can be meta warping
If unbanned, the absolute first shell I would immediately slam Stoneforge Mystic into is an Esper list running Geists and Swords and discard and Lingering Souls. Maybe even Elspeth Knight Errant. It sort of slots into Jeskai, but if you aren't running a hard control package, it's really not any better than the 7-card Geist/Queller package the "non-control" version plays already.
We need to really look at the point being made here, Torrential Gearhulk and Secure the Wastes are not Modern Staples, they appear in less than 25% of the current posted decklists. You need to compare Stoneforge Mystic to the current competitive slot, which is Geist of Saint Traft coming in at 57% as a 3x in the posted decklists. Jeskai would run 4x Stoneforge to have a competitive chance to gain tempo on the unfair decks.
There are a ton of smart people on this thread, we cannot allow basic and obvious misunderstanding of the Modern format to skew how we view individual cards.
In order to reach the best version of "diversity" is to clarify what that term means. What we do know, is that WotC have acknowledged Archetypes, Color, and Sideboard Slots. What they prioritize, no one knows for sure.
Where are you getting your statistics? Considering we don’t have a reliable way to gather them I am skeptical. All the top performing jeskai lists I’ve seen have been on the 3 snap, 1 gearhulk creature plan with no geists or quellers to switch for sfm. They are different decks.
The Jeskai Control decks (the ones using 1 Gearhulk + 1 Secure) are not often running Geists/Quellers, those are indeed different decks. Quellers are sometimes in the side, but the hard control deck we saw out of the SCG event a few weeks back isnt running them.
Green Sun's Zenith
On turn one, this can give the acceleration of a Llanowar Elves by getting a Dryad Arbor. On later turns, it can get a large creature or a one-of "toolbox" creature such as Gaddock Teeg. While this is interesting, it is also too efficient. If one intends to build a deck that has turn-one accelerants, Green Sun's Zenith is a great choice. If one wants to more access to utility green creatures, Green Sun's Zenith is a great choice. If one wants to more reliably get a large green creature, such as a Primeval Titan, onto the battlefield, Green Sun's Zenith is a great choice. However, this ends up with fewer different decks being played in practice, as Green Sun's Zenith is such a good choice that there are fewer green decks that do anything else. The DCI hopes that banning Green Sun's Zenith increases diversity among Modern green decks.
They mention acceleration and Titan. Given TitanShift is T1, that seems a "no". Basically it is good at all stages of the game, a sin DRS was banned for. WotC doesn't like such cards.
@SFM, as I said before, it would be a GGT-styled unban. Maybe safe for now, but potentially problematic in the future. I wonder whether WotC dares to make the same unban again.
Regarding the Titanshift being tier 1 argument, I'll repost my reasoning for why it very likely would not see play in the deck.
Green Sun's Zenith highly likely would not even see play in Titanshift, if one thinks about what incorporating a Dryad Arbor and Green Sun's Zenith into the deck would mean you come up with the following scenarios:
Tutoring up a DA turns on all of your opponents dead removal.
What happens if Dryad Arbor is in your hand and is your 6th land drop needed to cast Prime Time? You get delayed a whole turn which is often crucial.
What happens if Dryad Arbor is your 7th land drop (or one of your first 7) and it gets bolted/pushed in response to your Scapeshift? Nightmare scenario right there.
Tutoring up a Primeval Titan with 7 mana instead of the 6 mana needed for Pact makes a huge difference, after all, with 7 mana you could just be casting a lethal Scapeshift.
How many Green Sun's would you even run, and if 3+, how many Dryad Arbor? I can't imagine that running a singleton would warrant the inclusion of multiple GSZ, since after searching up your Dryad Arbor the following GSZ get worse than Summoner's Pact in a lot of spots. Then again, running multiple Dryad Arbor is definitely not what Titanshift wants due to the reasons shown above.
So yeah, after giving it some thought I can't imagine Titanshift preferring GSZ over Pact, or even wanting a removal susceptible land.
Regarding the diversity argument this 7 year old ban announcement gives, green creature decks currently basically all run Collected Company, so the supposed diversity they tried to achieve was not fulfilled. It is just normal that a specific color and archetype will use the best cards at their disposal, I don't see any blue control decks ditching Snapcaster Mage. GSZ would possibly even diversify green decks since it has different deck building restrictions than CoCo.
Lastly the "it's good at any stage of the game" argument is in this case very dependent on the quality of the current best green creatures available, which nowadays, in size ("can get a large creature"), all get easily outclassed by Deaths Shadow, and getting a value creature at 3+ mana does not seem "too good" for modern in my opinion (the only green "hatebear" like creature you can tutor up iirc is Gaddock Teeg which currently sees 0 play and actually would hinder any further GSZ from being cast so yeah..not great).
Again, there's being good at any stage of the game as in great, and then there's good as in being passable/acceptable, which is what a 4 mana Witness/Knight/Finks/etc feels to me. Ancient Stirrings honestly also fits the "it's good at any stage of the game" criteria by the way.
I'd just like to point out that I'm not arguing for a GSZ unban to "make my deck better", I sincerely feel like the card isn't too good for modern and none of the arguments I've heard until now have swayed me, and believe me, I haven't dismissed them out of stubbornness but instead given them some thought. I do support most unbans as long as they are not ludicrous though, for me BBE and Stoneforge would likely be fine in the current meta (Jace is another subject ) Edit: I'd probably give Splinter Twin another shot as well since the meta did change alot since then.
At first I thought the gsz talk was ridiculous but I have to say there have been some good points. The thing I think that keeps it banned is that it could make games play out the same too often and Wizards doesn’t want that. Regardless of power level, collected company and ancient stirrings still have some randomness involved and chord takes some set up keeping it from being so consistent.
At first I thought the gsz talk was ridiculous but I have to say there have been some good points. The thing I think that keeps it banned is that it could make games play out the same too often and Wizards doesn’t want that. Regardless of power level, collected company and ancient stirrings still have some randomness involved and chord takes some set up keeping it from being so consistent.
I completely forgot that WOTC hates games playing out the same, that's one of their primary reasons for not having powerful cantrips in modern
At first I thought the gsz talk was ridiculous but I have to say there have been some good points. The thing I think that keeps it banned is that it could make games play out the same too often and Wizards doesn’t want that. Regardless of power level, collected company and ancient stirrings still have some randomness involved and chord takes some set up keeping it from being so consistent.
I completely forgot that WOTC hates games playing out the same, that's one of their primary reasons for not having powerful cantrips in modern
And why they printed and pushed things like Aetherworks Marvel, CoCo, etc. The design philosophy changes over the years (pushing things to high variange/RNG) is likely driven by them getting killed by the king of RNG: Hearthstone, and trying to emulate that.
GSZ generally fosters a strategy closer to POD than coco does; you're incentivized to play high value creatures across a wide spectrum of CMCs and predominately good cards as opposed to combo enablers. GSZ is generally much weaker than Pod in modern's context (you'll see this is quite different in legacy due to an earlier critical turn, higher emphasis on consistency, and the prevalence of cards like Phyrexian Revoker and Pithing Needle).
I think rather than homogenize green it would create a split between coco and GSZ decks, with Elves being the only deck to play both. Elves would almost surely become tier 1, but I'm not convinced that is an issue. Seems like a perfectly healthy deck to be tier 1 to me (since it encourages fair gameplay for the most part and creature/combat interaction).
Honestly if you look at modern I think some of its issues are the lack of consistency tools in non-blue non-brown decks -- expedition map and ancient stirrings being probably the most powerful consistency tools in the format with blue cantrips second. Chord is really nowhere near on the level of these cards, and coco is better defined as an inconsistency tool than a consistency tool
Green Sun's Zenith and Stoneforge Mystic are some sweet cards but I don't see either of them breaking the meta these days. Lots of turn 3-4 combos that win on the spot. I'm fine with a few added value engines in the format, especially in white.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
We've seen what happens when Jund becomes top dog, Tron comes around smacks it down, and then aggro and combo become popular and then THAT cycle begins.
Right now, we aren't even sure BBE would make Jund tier 1 (but definitely tier 2).
With BBE being legal I actually have my doubts about Tron smacking it down though, a haste creature which attacks their Planeswalkers and brings with it, especially post SB, either a discard spell, a Maelstrom Pulse effect, K-Command, Fulminator, or Liliana might cause Tron some problems. Not saying BBE is too good, I honestly cannot answer that without some serious testing, but it definitely would make Junds Tron MU better.
For those who weren't aware, David Ernenwein at Modern Nexus (the old haunt of our own MTGS' ktkenshinx, and current haunt of MTGS' ashtonkutcher) has just posted the fourth in a thoughtful series of articles about a potential BBE urban.
TL;DR version: BBE is likely to improve Jund's match vs. Tron by a large percentage. However Tron may well be able to adjust its strategy to compensate, regardless of other larger meta changes that might result from a significant urban decision.
I feel like the format doesn't need an unban as much as getting some cards that didn't make it into modern into modern. Cards like Tortured Existence would be good for working with certain builds, and wasteland is something that probably wouldn't hurt to have in the format either.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
This GSZ talk is pretty scary to me as someone who's played a lot of legacy, and I mean a lot. People seem to be discounting how it homogenizes green decks and how consistent it makes green decks. This was fine in legacy since playing a green creature based strategy is pretty much just not strong enough, so it makes up for it by a powerful toolbox approach.
The shuffles back into library on cast is what makes this extremely strong (and in regards to one persons comparison to traverse, probably more powerful ignoring the casting cost shenanigans business). You start your deck with 4 GSZ, on every turn you have 5-8 copies of any card in your deck, but most importantly you have 5 copies of every stupid one of you can think of in green. For a format that people claim is based too much on powerful hosers, you're going to develop a deck that gets them for free.
Oh your deck doesn't run basics? Good thing I'm playing with 5 Ramunap Excavator, oh it's dredge? 6 copies of Scooze. You're a control deck with sweepers? You're tron? 5 Gaddock Teeg's. And every turn of the game your deck gets more consistent as your GSZ density increases, allowing you to just always play the best cards in the matchup and play the same game everytime.
It's incredibly consistent and I don't really see most coco decks surviving without becoming one bastard hybrid deck, value town and combo-centric coco decks probably just amalgamate. I dont' really see it being fine if ponder/preordain aren't in this format, especially when we already have green creature decks floating around, I think we'd lose our awesome diversity.
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Still, I dont agree with your first point and it hardly holds up. Why isn't Steelshaper's Gift played in Legacy and SFM is? It's not because of Umezawa's Jitte. Because a bad card is bad, and a good card is good.
Your second point about the answers to Batterskull. Yes, there are a multitude of answers to every single card in MTG, I get that. But you are talking about very narrow cards. There's reasons why Path to Exile and Fatal Push are so good, which is the reason for my initial comment about needing B and W to deal with it. You are also talking about side board cards compared to easily main deck cards when you include Naturalize, Smash to Smithereens, and Abrade (Vapor Snag is very mediocre and Simic Charm is just bad, as well as many other cards that can deal with Batter skull, but you get my point).
Sword of the Meek and to an extent, Thopter Foundry are very different cards than Stoneforge Mystic, with Legacy yet again to look for proof.
As for your final statement about Azban and Orzhov decks benefitting more than Jeskai, I probably agree. The point is, SFM is pretty darn flexible. I'm not fully against the unban, but if Modern wasn't in such a good place, then I'd be more for it
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
So taxes decks would maybe play them as a transformative sideboard package or cobble together maybe 3 in the main to reduce the effects of the arbiter non-bo. Maybe even 2x but I can't see people (beyond an initial rush to play with the card) actually settling on playset of both arbiter and SFM
So then you have to ask; if SFM is (according to most people here) a likely candidate in taxes as a sort of figurehead for the card, and taxes will only run two (or board them in) how exactly is this any sort of problem card too powerful to unleash?
Don't get me wrong I have my playset already and if they get unbanned I'm 100% jamming it until the cows come home but even though I love the card I can see it's a fairly durdly option in modern. Decent, high-value, low-cost but durdly. The best place I can figure for it actually making some serious waves would be some kind of jeskai deck that would value a Multi-purpose threat and be able to protect it fairly well. Is that so bad?
Cards are only bad or sideboard cards in the context of a meta. If SFM became 50% of the meta, then all of a sudden abrade and vapor snag don't look so bad. Similarly, you cannot say "look at legacy for proof" when the meta's are completely different.
I really don't see how sword of the meek and SFM can be all that different when the arguments against them are exactly the same. They supposedly stifle fair creature strategies. We saw that one absolutely does not, and the other has never been given a chance. We've seen time and time again cards come of the original ban list and have minimal impact. The format itself, as well as WotC' understanding of it, are greatly superior to the early days of modern. I'm still not holding my breath but don't be surprised if it is unbanned.
Not trying to berate you, just getting some honest discussion on the card here but I must say, I remain unconvinced. I can tell you are as well, so on this point we will just have to agree to disagree.
So your biggest issue with SFM is that it could create a new Esper Control archetype that tries to win off the back of SFM + Batterskull backed up by a bunch of counterspells and discard. At least, that is what I have gathered from reading the past page or so of comments.
SO first off, I will agree that SFM + Batterskull is a good combo. There is no doubt about it. Hell the entire interaction is why we are debating whether or not SFM should be unbanned in Modern or not. However, there are a few things about Modern that honestly keep the power of SFM in check.
1) No access to Umezawa's Jitte. Every single Legacy deck that runs SFM runs Jitte. And except in very specific scenarios, the pilot is going to grab Jitte before Batterskull. The true power of SFM in Legacy is that it is able to get a Jitte onto the board in a way that can't be stopped by Fore of Will. Batterskull is in because it is a very good equipment to pair with SFM since for 5 mana you can bounce it and re-deploy it without it getting countered, all at instant speed. Jitte being banned in Modern means that SFM only really has access to the Batterskull combo, which while very good, is nowhere near as powerful as what the card is mainly used for in Legacy.
2) Counterspells in Modern suck. If you look at the stats on MTGGoldfish, you'll find that in basically every deck that plays SFM that isn't D&T runs SFM alongside Force of Will. Now I don't know about you, but having a card that lets your cheat equipment into play, and being able to protect it with the best counterspell in the game, is a pretty good way to make a card more powerful. In Modern, let's say you play SFM on turn 2. You have no way to stop your opponent from using Fatal Push, Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile, Dismember, hell even Warping Wail to destroy your creature. At that point you have an expensive equipment in hand, and no creature to equip it to. In this instance, SFM is essentially a Steelshaper's Gift. Now granted, there will definitely be games where your opponent doesn't have the removal spell and you can untap with mystic. What then? Mana Leak, Remand? Literally the best thing I can think up (and admittedly it does seem like a good combo) is in response to removal to get Batterskull into play, get your 4/4 token and then use Stubborn Denial. I mean that uses a lot of resources. SFM is simply made a lot weaker in Modern by the fact that there are a lot fewer ways to protect it.
3) Modern is doing more powerful things than playing a 4/4 with vigilance and lifelink on turn 3. Gurmag Angler, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Death's Shadow, Reality Smasher, and Primeval Titan all laugh hysterically at Batterskull. Angler and Tasigur can be played on turn 2, Smasher and Titan can be played anywhere between Turns 3 and 4, and don't even get me started on cards like Karn Liberated that come down turn 3 to ruin your day, or the entirety of the Storm deck. Modern as a format is just more powerful than having SFM and a Batterskull. Again, don't get me wrong. SFM and Batterskull are good, and they are powerful. But in the company of giants, it is more likely to be another measly giant standing among them as opposed to being the colossus towering over them.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
We need to really look at the point being made here, Torrential Gearhulk and Secure the Wastes are not Modern Staples, they appear in less than 25% of the current posted decklists. You need to compare Stoneforge Mystic to the current competitive slot, which is Geist of Saint Traft coming in at 57% as a 3x in the posted decklists. Jeskai would run 4x Stoneforge to have a competitive chance to gain tempo on the unfair decks.
Mono White D&T Would 100% remove Leonin Arbiter, and run disruption in the form of Aven Mindcensor and Sword of Feast and Famine, that's not even debatable.
Abzan would not run Stoneforge Mystic, they are a Liliana of the Veil deck. Stoneforge Mystic does not suit that plan whatsoever. Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek are sufficient disruption, the competitive slot in that deck is Tireless Tracker and Lingering Souls. Abzan is a deck that doesn't need the lifegain, and can't effectively use the card advantage, and is already taxed on tapping out each and every turn at Sorcery speed.
There are a ton of smart people on this thread, we cannot allow basic and obvious misunderstanding of the Modern format to skew how we view individual cards.
EDIT; Just to make a point very clear; Stoneforge Mystic would not make cards like Torrential Gearhulk irrelevant, Torrential Gearhulk makes Torrential Gearhulk irrelevant in the context of the Modern format. This double sided-argument was used against Bloodbraid Elf for years, it's a nothing but a baseless argument in the name of "diversity"
In order to reach the best version of "diversity" is to clarify what that term means. What we do know, is that WotC have acknowledged Archetypes, Color, and Sideboard Slots. What they prioritize, no one knows for sure.
Very narrow cards possibly could become meta. This is my point, theres a chance she can be meta warping
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Where are you getting your statistics? Considering we don’t have a reliable way to gather them I am skeptical. All the top performing jeskai lists I’ve seen have been on the 3 snap, 1 gearhulk creature plan with no geists or quellers to switch for sfm. They are different decks.
Spirits
Regarding the diversity argument this 7 year old ban announcement gives, green creature decks currently basically all run Collected Company, so the supposed diversity they tried to achieve was not fulfilled. It is just normal that a specific color and archetype will use the best cards at their disposal, I don't see any blue control decks ditching Snapcaster Mage. GSZ would possibly even diversify green decks since it has different deck building restrictions than CoCo.
Lastly the "it's good at any stage of the game" argument is in this case very dependent on the quality of the current best green creatures available, which nowadays, in size ("can get a large creature"), all get easily outclassed by Deaths Shadow, and getting a value creature at 3+ mana does not seem "too good" for modern in my opinion (the only green "hatebear" like creature you can tutor up iirc is Gaddock Teeg which currently sees 0 play and actually would hinder any further GSZ from being cast so yeah..not great).
Again, there's being good at any stage of the game as in great, and then there's good as in being passable/acceptable, which is what a 4 mana Witness/Knight/Finks/etc feels to me. Ancient Stirrings honestly also fits the "it's good at any stage of the game" criteria by the way.
I'd just like to point out that I'm not arguing for a GSZ unban to "make my deck better", I sincerely feel like the card isn't too good for modern and none of the arguments I've heard until now have swayed me, and believe me, I haven't dismissed them out of stubbornness but instead given them some thought. I do support most unbans as long as they are not ludicrous though, for me BBE and Stoneforge would likely be fine in the current meta (Jace is another subject ) Edit: I'd probably give Splinter Twin another shot as well since the meta did change alot since then.
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
I completely forgot that WOTC hates games playing out the same, that's one of their primary reasons for not having powerful cantrips in modern
And why they printed and pushed things like Aetherworks Marvel, CoCo, etc. The design philosophy changes over the years (pushing things to high variange/RNG) is likely driven by them getting killed by the king of RNG: Hearthstone, and trying to emulate that.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Design philosophies do change
I'm really curious to see how 2018 shapes up for modern without Stoddards team. I wonder if we'll see better answers as a whole.
I think rather than homogenize green it would create a split between coco and GSZ decks, with Elves being the only deck to play both. Elves would almost surely become tier 1, but I'm not convinced that is an issue. Seems like a perfectly healthy deck to be tier 1 to me (since it encourages fair gameplay for the most part and creature/combat interaction).
Honestly if you look at modern I think some of its issues are the lack of consistency tools in non-blue non-brown decks -- expedition map and ancient stirrings being probably the most powerful consistency tools in the format with blue cantrips second. Chord is really nowhere near on the level of these cards, and coco is better defined as an inconsistency tool than a consistency tool
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
TL;DR version: BBE is likely to improve Jund's match vs. Tron by a large percentage. However Tron may well be able to adjust its strategy to compensate, regardless of other larger meta changes that might result from a significant urban decision.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
other than drastically redefining the whole Modern format...
RBU
Splinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBUUUUMono U TronUUU
GRGGR TronGRG
GWURKnight FallGWUR
Legacy
GWBDark MaverickGWB
--> EDH <--
BWUErtai, the CorruptedBWU
Well we know Wizards isn't too bothered by doing this though bans and new cards already. Maybe they draw the line at reprints?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
ehhh, I think wasteland would have a far bigger impact than any recent printing or ban/unban
RBU
Splinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBUUUUMono U TronUUU
GRGGR TronGRG
GWURKnight FallGWUR
Legacy
GWBDark MaverickGWB
--> EDH <--
BWUErtai, the CorruptedBWU
The shuffles back into library on cast is what makes this extremely strong (and in regards to one persons comparison to traverse, probably more powerful ignoring the casting cost shenanigans business). You start your deck with 4 GSZ, on every turn you have 5-8 copies of any card in your deck, but most importantly you have 5 copies of every stupid one of you can think of in green. For a format that people claim is based too much on powerful hosers, you're going to develop a deck that gets them for free.
Oh your deck doesn't run basics? Good thing I'm playing with 5 Ramunap Excavator, oh it's dredge? 6 copies of Scooze. You're a control deck with sweepers? You're tron? 5 Gaddock Teeg's. And every turn of the game your deck gets more consistent as your GSZ density increases, allowing you to just always play the best cards in the matchup and play the same game everytime.
It's incredibly consistent and I don't really see most coco decks surviving without becoming one bastard hybrid deck, value town and combo-centric coco decks probably just amalgamate. I dont' really see it being fine if ponder/preordain aren't in this format, especially when we already have green creature decks floating around, I think we'd lose our awesome diversity.