So me and a few people I play with are arguing about being able to untap after your upkeep. I feel that once you draw you cant untap all your mana and creatures because your upkeep is over. They claim it doesn't matter when you do it. I feel that if you forget, that is your fault and you cant just untap when you notice.
You can't forget to untap and you can't ignore it when your opponent doesn't untap. This is a game action that automatically happens in the untap step (not the upkeep step). If a player draws a card, sees there permanents are untapped, they just untap them.
There should be very few situations where players are untapping this late but newer players sometimes forget the order. I can understand trying to teach these players the order of operations for Magic (Untap-Upkeep-Draw) but there is nothing that supports your stance of "you forgot to untap; now you can't".
Indeed. Just to chime in on that excellent post above, something like forgetting a trigger would be resolved differently to untapping.
Untapping isn't a trigger, has to happen and so can't be missed. When people are rushing it sometimes happens that someone draws and then untaps. It's a bit sloppy to see (and this doesn't really happen at high level play) but you wouldn't even be issued a warning for this unless:
Upkeep triggers! Drawing your card first means you've missed your upkeep. If someone has an upkeep trigger that's important (say for example a Summoner's pact trigger that would lose you the game if you missed it) then doing these bits of your turn out of order can mean an immediate game loss or a warning (or certainly an embarrassing and demoralising judge call). In the above example with Summoner's pact, drawing your card for the turn without dealing with the trigger first is effectively the same thing as choosing not to pay the cost, so you forfeit the game. I've been paired against opponents even at high level tournaments who have got flustered and forgotten a pact trigger. It happens to the best of us haha, but nailing the turn order thing is worth it if you're learning. Other upkeep triggers (such as dark confidant or Aether Vial) are much less of an issue if you miss them, but it's not good practice of course.
However, untapping itself can't be missed and in a sense isn't really a problem or punishable in the way you've described, beyond just "hey dude - untap, upkeep, draw" as a friendly reminder.
The best advice I can give is to pick a deck you want to play and learn it inside out. Some decks have lots of triggers, some don't, but learning what your deck requires you to remember is critical so it's second nature if you hit up a tournament.
In the same sense what about changing your mind. I have a friend that loves to play something and then be like “oh wait never mind”. Tho he never takes his hand off, Iv seen the card so I can’t see how this would be allowed. I guess it’s not a big deal for just causal play but it’s still annoying. I plan on hitting some local tournaments up in the near future and if that’s something that’ll get us a warning or disqualifed for I’ll choose a new partner.
In the same sense what about changing your mind. I have a friend that loves to play something and then be like “oh wait never mind”. Tho he never takes his hand off, Iv seen the card so I can’t see how this would be allowed. I guess it’s not a big deal for just causal play but it’s still annoying. I plan on hitting some local tournaments up in the near future and if that’s something that’ll get us a warning or disqualifed for I’ll choose a new partner.
You wouldn't get a warning, he just wouldn't be able to take back his choice. Generally speaking, tournament magic = no takesies-backsies. FNM (Friday night magic if you're not familiar) is casual rules-enforcement-level (REL) and both the players and the tournament organiser will have a more lenient stance on this kind of thing. It's meant as an entry point and anyone can attend. It should be a welcoming environment for newer players. That doesn't mean you can take the 'mick', but chatting with your opponents is encouraged so you could tell your opponent in each round that you're just starting out or something like that. People are generally happy to walk you through the nuances of tournament play and help you feel welcomed.
General rule of thumb for your friend: Announcing a spell is casting the spell. Then he has to pay costs etc. and resolve the spell.
If your friend is capable of playing a good solid game of magic but otherwise is more in the habit of "playing out loud", then he just needs to slow down a little and do a self-check before announcing what he intends to do. Admittedly it can be a bit of a rude awakening if you're used to playing fast&loose casually and then attend (for example) a big modern tournament, but I don't think that's what you meant?
Also some stuff is inconsequential and you can 'undo', such as tapping lands before announcing a spell. I could (for example) tap three lands, have a quick reconsider, shrug my shoulders and immediately untap them again. As long as I didn't announce any spells or abilities this is allowed and fine. You see it even at the highest levels of play on coverage at large tournaments. Just be clear that at larger tournaments as soon as you announce your intention to use an activated ability or cast a spell, you're "locked in".
Occasionally weird stuff happens, like someone casting a spell into a chalice of the void and the owner of the chalice missing the chalice trigger. In this instance, the spell would resolve despite chalice being on the board. You can't know all of these corner-case rules foibles so it's just something you'd have to learn while playing.
Definitely don't be afraid to attend local small tournaments like fnm and be sure to enjoy yourself and chat with your opponents.
I had a comparable situation on a tournament, including a Judge Call.
I was playing MUD, my opponent was on Elves (Legacy).
There was a Lodestone Golem in play on my side, and my opponent announced an Elvish Visionary. He just payed 2 Mana first, so I reminded him of the Golem's ability. He then payed the extra Mana, reconsidered his play, took the Visionary back to his hand and untapped his lands.
I made a Judge Call for that, and the Judge told me that his decision is legitimate because he forgot the Golem. So in this case (and probably with a Chalice as well), it's a different story as far as I know.
Chalice would not be the same case as Lodestone Golem. Golem causes the spell to cast more, which changes how the player would cast the spell, and thus allows the player to reconsider what otherwise would have been an illegal action (casting a spell for an incorrect amount of Mana). Chalice is a triggered ability on the cast; if you forget about Chalice and cast something into it, you don't get to take it back. The spell just gets countered.
Chalice would not be the same case as Lodestone Golem. Golem causes the spell to cast more, which changes how the player would cast the spell, and thus allows the player to reconsider what otherwise would have been an illegal action (casting a spell for an incorrect amount of Mana). Chalice is a triggered ability on the cast; if you forget about Chalice and cast something into it, you don't get to take it back. The spell just gets countered.
For the record, this is exactly what I meant by "occasionally weird stuff happens" haha.
To the OP. Magic is complex. Not every card behaves exactly as you'd expect, because (often) of the specific wording on the cards meaning subtle differences in rules behaviour.
Apart from individual card weirdness (which everyone falls foul of sooner or later) just make sure to get the basic stuff done in the right order and "no takesies backsies" is a good general way to practice, keeps you sharp!
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Since we are on the topic of rules and stuff maybe I can just ask this here instead of making a whole new thread.
I signed up at a local card shop to start taking part in their tournaments. I was wondering if there was any etiquette or rules that I should know before I go? I learned recently that people seem to Scry 1 at the beginning of the game before people determine who goes first. Anything else like this I should know about?
Since we are on the topic of rules and stuff maybe I can just ask this here instead of making a whole new thread.
I signed up at a local card shop to start taking part in their tournaments. I was wondering if there was any etiquette or rules that I should know before I go? I learned recently that people seem to Scry 1 at the beginning of the game before people determine who goes first. Anything else like this I should know about?
What? Before the coin flip and mulligans? That's insane, take this to the Rulings Forum to learn how to respond to this type of BS. They mostly do rules questions, but they get a lot of these kinds of tournament questions, too.
No it’s after mulligans. And ok will do thank you.
Just so you know, the order is:
- Determine who goes first (this can be done while shuffling up)
- Draw starting hand; mulligans (starting with person on the play, followed by person on the draw)
- Once mulligans are finalised, anyone who took a Mulligan and has less than 7 cards can scry 1. This has been the current Mulligan rule for well over a year now, from memory.
If you're hitting up casual level tournaments, people will help you out. Be sure to explain you're still learning.
That said, definitely give yourself a refresher on the rules because the basic order of operations is really important. Stuff like the stack, triggers, turn order, active player/priority etc.
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Can anyone bring closer to this?
There should be very few situations where players are untapping this late but newer players sometimes forget the order. I can understand trying to teach these players the order of operations for Magic (Untap-Upkeep-Draw) but there is nothing that supports your stance of "you forgot to untap; now you can't".
Untapping isn't a trigger, has to happen and so can't be missed. When people are rushing it sometimes happens that someone draws and then untaps. It's a bit sloppy to see (and this doesn't really happen at high level play) but you wouldn't even be issued a warning for this unless:
Upkeep triggers! Drawing your card first means you've missed your upkeep. If someone has an upkeep trigger that's important (say for example a Summoner's pact trigger that would lose you the game if you missed it) then doing these bits of your turn out of order can mean an immediate game loss or a warning (or certainly an embarrassing and demoralising judge call). In the above example with Summoner's pact, drawing your card for the turn without dealing with the trigger first is effectively the same thing as choosing not to pay the cost, so you forfeit the game. I've been paired against opponents even at high level tournaments who have got flustered and forgotten a pact trigger. It happens to the best of us haha, but nailing the turn order thing is worth it if you're learning. Other upkeep triggers (such as dark confidant or Aether Vial) are much less of an issue if you miss them, but it's not good practice of course.
However, untapping itself can't be missed and in a sense isn't really a problem or punishable in the way you've described, beyond just "hey dude - untap, upkeep, draw" as a friendly reminder.
The best advice I can give is to pick a deck you want to play and learn it inside out. Some decks have lots of triggers, some don't, but learning what your deck requires you to remember is critical so it's second nature if you hit up a tournament.
You wouldn't get a warning, he just wouldn't be able to take back his choice. Generally speaking, tournament magic = no takesies-backsies. FNM (Friday night magic if you're not familiar) is casual rules-enforcement-level (REL) and both the players and the tournament organiser will have a more lenient stance on this kind of thing. It's meant as an entry point and anyone can attend. It should be a welcoming environment for newer players. That doesn't mean you can take the 'mick', but chatting with your opponents is encouraged so you could tell your opponent in each round that you're just starting out or something like that. People are generally happy to walk you through the nuances of tournament play and help you feel welcomed.
General rule of thumb for your friend: Announcing a spell is casting the spell. Then he has to pay costs etc. and resolve the spell.
If your friend is capable of playing a good solid game of magic but otherwise is more in the habit of "playing out loud", then he just needs to slow down a little and do a self-check before announcing what he intends to do. Admittedly it can be a bit of a rude awakening if you're used to playing fast&loose casually and then attend (for example) a big modern tournament, but I don't think that's what you meant?
Also some stuff is inconsequential and you can 'undo', such as tapping lands before announcing a spell. I could (for example) tap three lands, have a quick reconsider, shrug my shoulders and immediately untap them again. As long as I didn't announce any spells or abilities this is allowed and fine. You see it even at the highest levels of play on coverage at large tournaments. Just be clear that at larger tournaments as soon as you announce your intention to use an activated ability or cast a spell, you're "locked in".
Occasionally weird stuff happens, like someone casting a spell into a chalice of the void and the owner of the chalice missing the chalice trigger. In this instance, the spell would resolve despite chalice being on the board. You can't know all of these corner-case rules foibles so it's just something you'd have to learn while playing.
Definitely don't be afraid to attend local small tournaments like fnm and be sure to enjoy yourself and chat with your opponents.
I was playing MUD, my opponent was on Elves (Legacy).
There was a Lodestone Golem in play on my side, and my opponent announced an Elvish Visionary. He just payed 2 Mana first, so I reminded him of the Golem's ability. He then payed the extra Mana, reconsidered his play, took the Visionary back to his hand and untapped his lands.
I made a Judge Call for that, and the Judge told me that his decision is legitimate because he forgot the Golem. So in this case (and probably with a Chalice as well), it's a different story as far as I know.
Greetings
For the record, this is exactly what I meant by "occasionally weird stuff happens" haha.
To the OP. Magic is complex. Not every card behaves exactly as you'd expect, because (often) of the specific wording on the cards meaning subtle differences in rules behaviour.
Apart from individual card weirdness (which everyone falls foul of sooner or later) just make sure to get the basic stuff done in the right order and "no takesies backsies" is a good general way to practice, keeps you sharp!
I signed up at a local card shop to start taking part in their tournaments. I was wondering if there was any etiquette or rules that I should know before I go? I learned recently that people seem to Scry 1 at the beginning of the game before people determine who goes first. Anything else like this I should know about?
What? Before the coin flip and mulligans? That's insane, take this to the Rulings Forum to learn how to respond to this type of BS. They mostly do rules questions, but they get a lot of these kinds of tournament questions, too.
Just so you know, the order is:
- Determine who goes first (this can be done while shuffling up)
- Draw starting hand; mulligans (starting with person on the play, followed by person on the draw)
- Once mulligans are finalised, anyone who took a Mulligan and has less than 7 cards can scry 1. This has been the current Mulligan rule for well over a year now, from memory.
If you're hitting up casual level tournaments, people will help you out. Be sure to explain you're still learning.
That said, definitely give yourself a refresher on the rules because the basic order of operations is really important. Stuff like the stack, triggers, turn order, active player/priority etc.
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My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge