So I built a list I'm going to try out at a largeish local event this weekend. Basically it's a test of a theory that Kiki Jiki/Pestermite is actually viable in this format. Here's my reasons:
1. Removal that kills the combo is at an all time low. Lightning Bolt isn't seeing much play even though the threats are shifting back to Bolt being reasonable, and the tappers dodge Fatal Push without revolt so picking your moment is completely plausible. Kiki always dodges Push. The only universal removal is Path and that was true of Twin too.
2. Several new cards have been added to the format that "were too good with Twin". Well, now we have all that stronger support with a weaker combo. Ancestral Vision, Opt, another set of painless UR lands, Censor, these are all cards that are fantastic with the combo.
3. I've seen a few people try and play this with UWR but I think that's wrong. White adds Restoration Angel and Wall of Omens but seriously dilutes your mana. UR can still play Cryptic Command+Blood Moon+Kiki. Adding white causes you to lose Cryptic and the threats aren't any better. Pestermite is at least comparable to Restoration Angel right now, and likely better (in terms of this specific deck), and if you really want card draw, red offers you a 2 drop in Abbot of Keral Keep that fills much the same role as Wall of Omens does.
4. By staying 2 color you get access to Blood Moon. Blood Moon is very well positioned right now. Most decks exist along one of two axis, they're weak to Blood Moon and take little pain from their lands (these are the better decks), or they have fetches and take a lot to their lands, but may be able to proactively beat a Blood Moon. Blood Moons are effectively free wins against the first category, which represents pretty much all of T1 and the better decks in T2 (aside from Shadow, which is in the second category).
So what do people think? Without having a specific list given (since I don't want the discussion to change to nitpicking a particular list... that's what deck forums are for) do I make a convincing enough case that the deck should in theory be viable again?
As a tier 1 deck? Not without a 4cmc combo piece that doesn't require triple red. As a janky T2/T3 deck that has a few gotcha games and folds to many of the top decks? Well that's where it's been for two years.
1. It's really not. Fatal Push and Path to Exile see play everywhere and kill just about everything relevant. Push triggering revolt is incredibly easy. ETron and other colorless decks also have Warping Wail, which takes care of each tapper creature. This is in addition to all the Thoughtseize effects that wreck the deck.
2. Ancestral Vision is mediocre and slow. Doesn't even really see play in ANYTHING these days. Might be good if the meta is not all fast decks killing you before it comes off suspend. Opt doesn't dig deep enough and is usually worse than both Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand. Spirebluff Canal (the UR painless land) is basically unplayable, because it NEEDS to come in untapped. It can't do that as land 4+, as required for combo.
3. I've tried the Jeskai version as described as well, and it's usually pretty bad. It's a mediocre fair deck with a slow clock and is unreliable at finding the combo. The manabase is a a complete wreck as you need W/R/U on turn 1 and at different stages of the game, UUU, RRR, and UWW. It's extremely clunky and awkward.
4. You could try making a 4 Spreading Seas, 3-4 Blood Moon kind of deck, but at that point, your wincon is mostly irrelevant. Either way, your tools are still limited, you still fold to a ton of top decks, and the deck is clunky and slow with minimal backup plan.
I had been trying to make it work for more than a year before giving up entirely. It's just not worth stressing about trying to recreate a good deck with bad cards and going 0-4 or 1-3 night after night. Just play something else or play another format.
I had been trying to make it work for more than a year before giving up entirely. It's just not worth stressing about trying to recreate a good deck with bad cards and going 0-4 or 1-3 night after night. Just play something else or play another format.
I had been trying to make it work for more than a year before giving up entirely. It's just not worth stressing about trying to recreate a good deck with bad cards and going 0-4 or 1-3 night after night. Just play something else or play another format.
Or perhaps you built it wrong?
So what would be the right way to build? Because I've tried about a dozen different iterations and lists before giving up entirely and focusing on Delver (which then got banned itself at which point I mostly gave up on Modern all together).
Recently this deck has seen some success, but 1 win and a top 4 isn't much. It might be a meta deck now, not sure how it will do in a creature heavy environment.
Recently this deck has seen some success, but 1 win and a top 4 isn't much. It might be a meta deck now, not sure how it will do in a creature heavy environment.
I actually just played a version of it today at a Modern event. Went undefeated in the Swiss+top 8, except the draw in the finals. Out of the T1 decks right now, based on what I saw today I would probably place the matchups as something like
Good (even or better) - UW Control, GDS, Storm, Titanshift
Bad - ETron, Burn, Affinity
Anyways, my list was probably off by 10 cards, maybe more. Yet it still did well. Which is reinforcing my opinion that the points in my OP were correct. The combo is resistant towards Fatal Push, though not completely immune which is a huge edge against black decks. Blood Moon is very well positioned right now and this is a good Blood Moon deck. Ancestral, Opt, and Spirebluff were all fantastic (Censor didn't work out though).
I think there's a lot of areas to explore here. Anyways, I guess my point is that I think it's reasonable again. The combo itself isn't as good as the old combo was, but it doesn't need to be, because the rest of the cards make up for it.
2) Better land disruption package. The U/R list is comfortable enough to run Blood Moon as a maindeck option. Copycat can run Spreading Seas, but Moon hurts them.
3) Options to splash or not. Copycat is forced to play 3 colors, always at least Jeskai, if it splashes it has to go 4 colors or more. Kiki can splash or not, but the winning lists lack a splash.
Saheeli has her own strength's but Kiki I think is in a better position.
I built it on mtgo (UR version) as my only deck and I seem to have found a way to make it work.
I'm not claiming to be some kind of genius succeeding where others have failed, but a good balance of early interaction (of the right kind) and then threatening the combo has worked wonders against the whole field.
To get to my list, I went back and took one of the more successful UR twin builds and replaced 4 twin with 3 Kiki and a roast (plus a few other minor tweaks to suit the current format)
Also, the list I took inspiration from was doing the old thing of running 1x stomping ground for ancient grudge and huntmaster in the side. Seemed like such a fun idea I couldn't say no, so I've got those two cards in the side against Affinity and burn.
So far, not lost a burn game or an affinity game. Not lost to eldrazi either (they don't play enough removal) and the only deck I've dropped games to was ad nauseam which is winnable but didn't stack up on the day.
My win/loss ratio at this point is something like 18-2 in the 1v1 queues.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
There is basically no replacing Splinter Twin as far as the cloning / blinky combo style play goes in modern. I'm not really sure what could fill that cards original shoes without reprinting what effectively is either a weaker version or more powerful version of the same card. I'd say the Saheeli deck is a completely different beast due to the way it plays in comparison to the Splinter Twin shell. I believe Shockwave already explained the big points that are worth mentioning as far as differences go.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
There is basically no replacing Splinter Twin as far as the cloning / blinky combo style play goes in modern. I'm not really sure what could fill that cards original shoes without reprinting what effectively is either a weaker version or more powerful version of the same card. I'd say the Saheeli deck is a completely different beast due to the way it plays in comparison to the Splinter Twin shell. I believe Shockwave already explained the big points that are worth mentioning as far as differences go.
Kiki is basically a weaker version of Splinter Twin. But, it actually has a couple points in favor of it that are relevant. Bolt isn't played much in the meta right now which works in Kiki's favor, it completely dodges Fatal Push, dying only to Path. Also, because the combo is two creatures, removal isn't a total blowout, if the combo gets interrupted you're still left with half of it and with all the additional card draw/filtering blue has gained lately, finding the other half again isn't difficult.
Also another meta consideration, not specific to this deck but in general is that the best decks right now are weak to Blood Moon. This is something I wrote another analysis on (it's still on page 1 if you scroll down to find it), but the highest performing decks right now are mana pain free. Which means they have few to no ways to get a basic to fight Blood Moon. The fetch/shock manabase is T2 or worse in any deck other than GDS. This is a good Blood Moon deck, which almost by definition makes it well positioned right now.
2) Better land disruption package. The U/R list is comfortable enough to run Blood Moon as a maindeck option. Copycat can run Spreading Seas, but Moon hurts them.
3) Options to splash or not. Copycat is forced to play 3 colors, always at least Jeskai, if it splashes it has to go 4 colors or more. Kiki can splash or not, but the winning lists lack a splash.
Saheeli has her own strength's but Kiki I think is in a better position.
Regarding land disruption, the 4c (GWru) Copycat lists can (and do) comfortably run Blood Moon (and possibly a tutorable Magus of the Moon) in the side thanks to Oath of Nissa and mana dorks. As you pointed out you can also run Spreading Seas, which synergizes well with Felidar Guardian. Finally, you can also run builds that are heavy on Renegade Rallier and Ghost Quarter, recurring the Ghost Quarter to pick off multiple lands.
If land disruption is a primary goal for you I think you may be pleasantly surprised with 4c Copycat. I agree that playing at sorcery speed is a legitimate drawback, though.
Kiki-Jiki is such a clunky creature to cast fairly (especially in a multicolor deck) that getting it out with Chord or Evolution would be much easier especailly with the mana dorks in green that accelerate this and fix the mana.
my take on this topic is that the most successful version of a kiki deck wouldn't be one that taps 5 lands to cast it. You either ramp into him or cheat him in. My latest iteration can combo out turn 2 with a perfect hand or turn 3 with a good hand, and does a combination of both ramping and cheating. Green is obviously a must.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I could imagine a Breach/Emrakul version of the deck that either ran Kiki/Exarch out of the side or vice versa. You could run Kiki/Exarch main to draw in creature removal, then side into Breach/Emrakul, or run the Breach version main, have them take out their removal, and side into Kiki/Exarch. Iduno. They all still seem pretty clunky.
I've seen someone with the transformational Kiki-Exarch plan in the board for Storm, oddly enough.
oh, nothing odd about that, its just one of the options, if a little fringe. I've tried it myself. Considering people don't board out their spot removal though, trying to kiki-off is just hard. But it dodges all the typical storm hate, which is the main idea.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I've built around Modern Pauper Twin (Midnight Guard + Presence of Gond, plus some defense like Apostle's Blessing or Vines of Vastwood and some library digging like Commune with the Gods and Benefaction of Rhonas) - for laffs. I dream of it becoming viable one day, but for now it's just hilarious to have the occasional T3 million-elf army from a modern pauper deck if your opponent is playing his own uninteractive deck or doesn't draw removal.
1. Land, manadork
2. Land, Midnight Guard
3. Presence of Gond, make a million elves.
(Of course I'd slowroll that if playing more seriously, to keep removal defense up).
1. Removal that kills the combo is at an all time low. Lightning Bolt isn't seeing much play even though the threats are shifting back to Bolt being reasonable, and the tappers dodge Fatal Push without revolt so picking your moment is completely plausible. Kiki always dodges Push. The only universal removal is Path and that was true of Twin too.
2. Several new cards have been added to the format that "were too good with Twin". Well, now we have all that stronger support with a weaker combo. Ancestral Vision, Opt, another set of painless UR lands, Censor, these are all cards that are fantastic with the combo.
3. I've seen a few people try and play this with UWR but I think that's wrong. White adds Restoration Angel and Wall of Omens but seriously dilutes your mana. UR can still play Cryptic Command+Blood Moon+Kiki. Adding white causes you to lose Cryptic and the threats aren't any better. Pestermite is at least comparable to Restoration Angel right now, and likely better (in terms of this specific deck), and if you really want card draw, red offers you a 2 drop in Abbot of Keral Keep that fills much the same role as Wall of Omens does.
4. By staying 2 color you get access to Blood Moon. Blood Moon is very well positioned right now. Most decks exist along one of two axis, they're weak to Blood Moon and take little pain from their lands (these are the better decks), or they have fetches and take a lot to their lands, but may be able to proactively beat a Blood Moon. Blood Moons are effectively free wins against the first category, which represents pretty much all of T1 and the better decks in T2 (aside from Shadow, which is in the second category).
So what do people think? Without having a specific list given (since I don't want the discussion to change to nitpicking a particular list... that's what deck forums are for) do I make a convincing enough case that the deck should in theory be viable again?
1. It's really not. Fatal Push and Path to Exile see play everywhere and kill just about everything relevant. Push triggering revolt is incredibly easy. ETron and other colorless decks also have Warping Wail, which takes care of each tapper creature. This is in addition to all the Thoughtseize effects that wreck the deck.
2. Ancestral Vision is mediocre and slow. Doesn't even really see play in ANYTHING these days. Might be good if the meta is not all fast decks killing you before it comes off suspend. Opt doesn't dig deep enough and is usually worse than both Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand. Spirebluff Canal (the UR painless land) is basically unplayable, because it NEEDS to come in untapped. It can't do that as land 4+, as required for combo.
3. I've tried the Jeskai version as described as well, and it's usually pretty bad. It's a mediocre fair deck with a slow clock and is unreliable at finding the combo. The manabase is a a complete wreck as you need W/R/U on turn 1 and at different stages of the game, UUU, RRR, and UWW. It's extremely clunky and awkward.
4. You could try making a 4 Spreading Seas, 3-4 Blood Moon kind of deck, but at that point, your wincon is mostly irrelevant. Either way, your tools are still limited, you still fold to a ton of top decks, and the deck is clunky and slow with minimal backup plan.
I had been trying to make it work for more than a year before giving up entirely. It's just not worth stressing about trying to recreate a good deck with bad cards and going 0-4 or 1-3 night after night. Just play something else or play another format.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Or perhaps you built it wrong?
So what would be the right way to build? Because I've tried about a dozen different iterations and lists before giving up entirely and focusing on Delver (which then got banned itself at which point I mostly gave up on Modern all together).
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
I actually just played a version of it today at a Modern event. Went undefeated in the Swiss+top 8, except the draw in the finals. Out of the T1 decks right now, based on what I saw today I would probably place the matchups as something like
Good (even or better) - UW Control, GDS, Storm, Titanshift
Bad - ETron, Burn, Affinity
Better deck construction could shift things.
It's in the thread for it.
Anyways, my list was probably off by 10 cards, maybe more. Yet it still did well. Which is reinforcing my opinion that the points in my OP were correct. The combo is resistant towards Fatal Push, though not completely immune which is a huge edge against black decks. Blood Moon is very well positioned right now and this is a good Blood Moon deck. Ancestral, Opt, and Spirebluff were all fantastic (Censor didn't work out though).
I think there's a lot of areas to explore here. Anyways, I guess my point is that I think it's reasonable again. The combo itself isn't as good as the old combo was, but it doesn't need to be, because the rest of the cards make up for it.
Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
1) Instant speed combo pieces. Deciever Exarct and Pestermite can be cast on the oppenents turn. Felidar Guardian can't.
2) Better land disruption package. The U/R list is comfortable enough to run Blood Moon as a maindeck option. Copycat can run Spreading Seas, but Moon hurts them.
3) Options to splash or not. Copycat is forced to play 3 colors, always at least Jeskai, if it splashes it has to go 4 colors or more. Kiki can splash or not, but the winning lists lack a splash.
Saheeli has her own strength's but Kiki I think is in a better position.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
I'm not claiming to be some kind of genius succeeding where others have failed, but a good balance of early interaction (of the right kind) and then threatening the combo has worked wonders against the whole field.
To get to my list, I went back and took one of the more successful UR twin builds and replaced 4 twin with 3 Kiki and a roast (plus a few other minor tweaks to suit the current format)
Also, the list I took inspiration from was doing the old thing of running 1x stomping ground for ancient grudge and huntmaster in the side. Seemed like such a fun idea I couldn't say no, so I've got those two cards in the side against Affinity and burn.
So far, not lost a burn game or an affinity game. Not lost to eldrazi either (they don't play enough removal) and the only deck I've dropped games to was ad nauseam which is winnable but didn't stack up on the day.
My win/loss ratio at this point is something like 18-2 in the 1v1 queues.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Kiki is basically a weaker version of Splinter Twin. But, it actually has a couple points in favor of it that are relevant. Bolt isn't played much in the meta right now which works in Kiki's favor, it completely dodges Fatal Push, dying only to Path. Also, because the combo is two creatures, removal isn't a total blowout, if the combo gets interrupted you're still left with half of it and with all the additional card draw/filtering blue has gained lately, finding the other half again isn't difficult.
Also another meta consideration, not specific to this deck but in general is that the best decks right now are weak to Blood Moon. This is something I wrote another analysis on (it's still on page 1 if you scroll down to find it), but the highest performing decks right now are mana pain free. Which means they have few to no ways to get a basic to fight Blood Moon. The fetch/shock manabase is T2 or worse in any deck other than GDS. This is a good Blood Moon deck, which almost by definition makes it well positioned right now.
If land disruption is a primary goal for you I think you may be pleasantly surprised with 4c Copycat. I agree that playing at sorcery speed is a legitimate drawback, though.
I have my own take (UG-colors with a red micro-splash) on the idea where the combo doesn't take any slots and can be sided out easily.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/785429-ug-r-kiki-evolution
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
oh, nothing odd about that, its just one of the options, if a little fringe. I've tried it myself. Considering people don't board out their spot removal though, trying to kiki-off is just hard. But it dodges all the typical storm hate, which is the main idea.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Modern - Burn
EDH - Neheb the Eternal
1. Land, manadork
2. Land, Midnight Guard
3. Presence of Gond, make a million elves.
(Of course I'd slowroll that if playing more seriously, to keep removal defense up).