I mean, does everyone sit around waiting for a deck to do well and then call for bans?
Every couple of months there's a new top dog. It doesn't last long (just look at eldrazi tron and death's shadow) but somehow people manage to get wrapped up into such a blinkered fervour that it's like these decks are the be-all and end-all and need to be banned.
Really guys. Bannings are for *exceptional* circumstances.
I mean, does everyone sit around waiting for a deck to do well and then call for bans?
Every couple of months there's a new top dog. It doesn't last long (just look at eldrazi tron and death's shadow) but somehow people manage to get wrapped up into such a blinkered fervour that it's like these decks are the be-all and end-all and need to be banned.
Really guys. Bannings are for *exceptional* circumstances.
Abso-*******-lutely. Just because ban/unban discussion is allowed doesn't mean it's necessary to have a particular deck targeted at all times. Negative criticisms made just for the sake of argument end up turning into a glorified witch hunt.
On the one hand, I understand your frustration. I argued against more bans than I can remember in this thread in 2017 alone, fully support the squashing of ban mania, and have been a major "No changes" defender throughout the year.
On the other hand, Storm may be the first deck in 2017 where we actually have data a) to assess the bannability of Storm cards in the first place and b) that might actually prove Storm has a bannable card. One or both of these were not the case in all previous instances of MTGS/Reddit/article ban mania throughout 2017. I think by November 2017, people are just exhausted with 2017 ban complaints. Off the top of my head, I remember major periods of ban complaint aimed at Temple, DS, Tron lands, Chalice, CoCo, Mox, Puresteel Paladin, SSG, Street Wraith, Thoughtseize, and Cavern of Souls. It was exhausting to encounter that daily ban mania focused on so many unjustifiable ban suggestions, and I too am tired of hearing about bans in this thread.
Unfortunately, Storm might actually be bannable, and we might actually have the data to discuss it in a meaningful way. It's a classic "boy/girl who cried wolf" situation. After 10+ instances ban mania gripped Modern throughout 2017, we finally encounter a deck we should be discussing, but some/many people are so fed up with ban talk that they don't want to. That's a reasonable and understandable position, and I empathize with it. But it does not mean the Storm ban talk is unjustified. Rather, it just means much of the previous ban talk was unjustified and we're all so tired of it when finally discussing a deck that needs discussion.
Not entirely convinced storm needs a ban. I still hate eldrazi temple, but still expect it to survive any ban announcements
Eldrazi tron hasn't even been performing well.
STORM is performing well and edging on being a violator
Just kill the storm cards, gifts banning punishes brewers.
Storm contributes nothing to modern except beating titanshift
It also beats Eldrazi which is one of the reasons eldrazi has been on the downswing.
Does it? A friend of mine who plays EldraziTron said he thinks he has a decent matchup against Storm which turns into a great matchup postboard.
It's pretty bad particularly if storm is on the play. Eldrazi only has 2 dismember to deal with cost reducers (sometimes Warping Wail to hit Baral too) and its other interaction is 4 Thoughtknot Seer, Karn, and Chalice. Once they start to go off Chalice on 1 doesn't matter, Karn is definitely not reliable, and Thoughtknot seer is sometimes too late and usually not enough.
Why do we care if it dies? What makes it any more important than other decks that have "died"? I thought that no deck was entitled to any form of success?
See, this is exactly why I want the moratorium on Twin talk removed. That way, with posts like these, instead of the vague talk about a mystery deck that he is clearly referring to, he can just say TWIN.
Yep.
OT: Grapeshot is the ban target if you have to hit anything. Empty is a much clunkier win-con, requiring a haste enabler like Goblin Bushwacker to end the game. More targets to be hit by counters/hand control/etc.
Not only that, what's often overlooked about Grapeshot is it can work as something other than a win condition, most notably removal. Is a Thalia ruining your day? Just cast a single Grapeshot and it's gone and you can combo off. You can't do that with Empty the Warrens which requires you to run some removal (e.g. Lightning Bolts) maindeck which in turn requires you to lower consistency by removing rituals or cantrips. Need to stall a little against an aggro deck? Cast a few spells, then Grapeshot to take out their attackers before going for the kill later (admittedly, Empty the Warrens can be used to stonewall the opponent with chump blockers, but again the efficiency is worse). It also makes cards like Meddling Mage or Surgical Extraction more powerful because you only have one win condition, so naming Grapeshot doesn't open you up to Empty the Warrens. I suppose they could try something like Ignite Memories as the backup win condition, but that's a whole lot worse.
Again, all of this is if Storm receives a ban, which I don't necessarily support. But if it does, then I think anything other than Grapeshot is laughable.
I'm not for any Deck getting banned in modern, really. I feel that when a new deck emerges that is unpolished and goes tier 1 against long established decks that is a good sign it will be on a watch list.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Does it? A friend of mine who plays EldraziTron said he thinks he has a decent matchup against Storm which turns into a great matchup postboard.
It's pretty bad particularly if storm is on the play. Eldrazi only has 2 dismember to deal with cost reducers (sometimes Warping Wail to hit Baral too) and its other interaction is 4 Thoughtknot Seer, Karn, and Chalice. Once they start to go off Chalice on 1 doesn't matter, Karn is definitely not reliable, and Thoughtknot seer is sometimes too late and usually not enough.
I don't think Chalice at 1 doesn't matter. It doesn't stop the rituals, but when they start to go off, they need those 1-mana cantrips in order to keep going, plus it weakens Gifts Ungiven because they can't grab Noxious Revival with it to get back one of the cards you put in their graveyard.
Postboard it seems they've got a lot of stuff to bring in. Look at this list; Grafdigger's Cage and Relic of Progenitus to hate on their graveyards, Spatial Contortion and Warping Wail to remove their enablers, and Ratchet Bomb to wipe away any tokens. Reminds me of Tron when Splinter Twin was around, which tended to pack so many hate cards that its typically weak Game 1 could be made up for by having all of those cards in Game 2 and 3 (see this list for example, when Twin was legal--that number of Boils is a bit uncommon, but their "typical" replacements would've consisted of at least a few Spellskites which is good against Twin as well).
I mean, the guy I know has been playing EldraziTron for a while, so I expect he's probably right in his assessment of it being a positive matchup on the whole.
Sad people want Storm banned after it has survived through so much. Just because you dont like playing against it doesnt mean it should be banned. Some people enjoy that style of pure engine combo that almost no other deck really brings to the table.
This feels like 2016 again when people were defending dredge
This isn't about not liking a deck, or hating the new hotness. In fact, I have a great record against storm in paper and mtgo.
The issue is that it's edging on being a turn 3 violator. It absolutely ruins other combo decks. I cannot possibly justify playing other combo decks over storm
No one cares if storm has had it rough; wotc admits the mechanic is one of the hugest mistakes of all time, across all formats.
Honestly, the only reason death shadow decks are safe from a ban is because it's massively skill testing and punishing. If people could play that deck to perfection it would be beyond busted and banned.
Storm is the first deck ive felt adamant about being dangerous to the format. I had my radar on temple and street wraith, but that ended up being regulated.
People are way too quick to assume someone wants something banned because it beats them. I have tons of wins over them between all the midrange decks I play and when e tron was jamming 7 or 8 graveyard hate cards in the 75
Well I personally disagree with Maro about his storm scale, and that certain mecahnics like dredge and storm is what makes mtg so great in the first place, but I'd rather not get into this topic here.
The turn 3/4 rule is something worth discussing and i think it has always been way too vague of a rule.
Anyways, Storm has so much hate vs it especially post board that i think its current iteration in the current meta shouldnt call for a ban at all
edit:
Honestly, the only reason death shadow decks are safe from a ban is because it's massively skill testing and punishing. If people could play that deck to perfection it would be beyond busted and banned.
Then say goodby to the deck. deck complexity and skill testing didnt stop the ban on Summer Bloom, the most difficult tier 1 deck modern's seen in a long time by a long shot
People are worried about storm when I'm more concerned with the implications of the 5 color humans deck.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think what the poster is going on with Humans getting close to a ban is the results of that top 32 a couple of posts up. 4 decks in the top 8, which if previous ban announcements are anything to go off of, are a red flag. One thing they pointed towards in the twin ban was three different versions of the deck, TC nearly all delver decks with the offending card, and if we look probably can see more cases where this was a warning sign. Still there isn't a clear ban criteria it's breaking yet either.
People are worried about storm when I'm more concerned with the implications of the 5 color humans deck.
What concerns are those?
It's actually nothing to do with the deck being bad for the format itself as much as there being enough creatures of the human subtype in modern along with enough rainbow lands to make a 5 color deck viable.
I'm always leery of modern turning into nothing but rainbow decks of different types because fixing becomes far too viable.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
People are worried about storm when I'm more concerned with the implications of the 5 color humans deck.
What concerns are those?
It's actually nothing to do with the deck being bad for the format itself as much as there being enough creatures of the human subtype in modern along with enough rainbow lands to make a 5 color deck viable.
Actually, I agree with this concern. The deck itself is fine. The problem is that Modern is so linear that you can play a 5-color deck completely unimpeded. The absence of abundant police cards combined with dominant deckbuilding strategies that suggest you can ignore your opponent have turned Modern into this weird place where you can play anything because nobody cares what you're playing.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
People are worried about storm when I'm more concerned with the implications of the 5 color humans deck.
What concerns are those?
It's actually nothing to do with the deck being bad for the format itself as much as there being enough creatures of the human subtype in modern along with enough rainbow lands to make a 5 color deck viable.
Actually, I agree with this concern. The deck itself is fine. The problem is that Modern is so linear that you can play a 5-color deck completely unimpeded. The absence of abundant police cards combined with dominant deckbuilding strategies that suggest you can ignore your opponent have turned Modern into this weird place where you can play anything because nobody cares what you're playing.
And yet when people adjust and play the best possible hate card against 5-color goodstuff (Blood Moon), people scream for Blood Moon's ban.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
It's actually nothing to do with the deck being bad for the format itself as much as there being enough creatures of the human subtype in modern along with enough rainbow lands to make a 5 color deck viable.
Actually, I agree with this concern. The deck itself is fine. The problem is that Modern is so linear that you can play a 5-color deck completely unimpeded. The absence of abundant police cards combined with dominant deckbuilding strategies that suggest you can ignore your opponent have turned Modern into this weird place where you can play anything because nobody cares what you're playing.
And yet when people adjust and play the best possible hate card against 5-color goodstuff (Blood Moon), people scream for Blood Moon's ban.
Blood Moon is an annoying card. It prevents people from playing greedy manabases, which to most Modern players, equates to not being able to play Magic. But it's also not like Choke, which punishes people for playing basic Islands. (An obligatory nod has to go to SaffronOlive for talking about this years ago.)
In the history of Magic, Blood Moon has been a reasonably fair card, so I think it's interesting that Modern players seem to despise it. Part of that dislike comes from the comparably slow speed of Modern; Blood Moon is less impactful in Vintage and Legacy because they're faster. Part of it also comes from Modern's weak counterspells; in Legacy and Vintage, Blood Moon is less likely to resolve, whereas in Modern it is largely kept in check by targeteddiscard. Another part comes from how difficult enchantments are to interact with in general, a concept that Bogles takes to the extreme.
But despite the complaining, Blood Moon remains an important police card in Modern. The problem is that it's one of very few police cards in the format. Thoughtseize is another great police card, but we just need more of them that work on different axes. In Legacy, things like Wasteland, Force of Will, and even Cabal Therapy act as police cards. We don't need those things in Modern, but we do need more cards like those things. Right now, the police cards in the format are homogenized and not diverse, so players basically find themselves choose between all-in strategies or being some kind of police deck.
5-color humans is an all-in strategy, like Affinity. It's a little more interactive than Affinity, but it still wins by hoping to not bump into its weaknesses at a tournament. I like that the deck exists, but I just don't like how many decks in the format basically encourage players to ignore their opponents.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
One thing I'm noticing, through playing (though I'm not playing all that much so well, it can all be random) and through watching streams, is that Dredge seems to be creeping back into existence.
So I ask you: What consequences will that have for the meta?
The meta should remain as cyclical as ever. Dredge is a lot like Affinity in terms of getting hated out, fading into the shadows, and then springing up again when players start dedicating sideboard slots to beating whatever's topping more lately (in this case, Thalia decks). It just surges and recedes on a smaller and more long-term scale than Affinity does, for two reasons:
1. Affinity is the better deck with a higher constant metagame share, so it stays in most players' minds even when it's having a bad couple weeks. Plus, perhaps obviously, more players are on the deck.
2. Graveyard hate has wider applications than artifact hate, so players are less likely to pack dedicated hate cards for Dredge (Surgical and Relic are much less effective vs. the deck than, say, Leyline and Rest in Peace, but are better-suited to open metagames for their added utility).
These factors combine to ensure Dredge rises and falls in bursts less noticeable than Affinity's, and that it takes longer to do so. The sky is definitely not falling when Dredge goes from 1% to 3%; check the standings again in a month or two.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Blood Moon doesn't really solve the problem if they make mana fixing too good. It does punish greedy mana bases, but because it's a symmetrical effect the only way to play the card effectively is to be playing a deck that doesn't get impacted by it's presence. Also, there are ways even in 4 or 5 color to play around Blood Moon, such as using Aether Vial. Ultimately this is similar to the problem encountered in standard with energy and Solemnity. Yes, Solemnity can stop energy from being produced by creatures, but it also kills every other type of counter based strategy in the format.
Right now the reason 5 color humans can exist is because Ancient Ziggurat, Cavern of Souls, and Unclaimed Territory give 12 painless sources of rainbow mana. Plus they are playing Vial so their creatures are often instants with bodies. I'm not really sure how people are worried about storm when this 12x painless rainbow land mayhem is only going to get better as they print more and more creatures going forward. Also, I will pray they are merciful and not going to print a ton of new slivers or reprint a bunch of them from the past in Return to Dominaria. People might laugh at the thought, but I lived through sliver hell. It's the only lord loving tribe that can out-lord merfolk and beat that deck on versatility.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Right now the reason 5 color humans can exist is because Ancient Ziggurat, Cavern of Souls, and Unclaimed Territory give 12 painless sources of rainbow mana. Plus they are playing Vial so their creatures are often instants with bodies. I'm not really sure how people are worried about storm when this 12x painless rainbow land mayhem is only going to get better as they print more and more creatures going forward.
The thing is, the only reason Ancient Ziggurat/Cavern of Souls/Unclaimed Territory works for Humans is that all of its creatures are the same type. This kind of manabase is very much restricted to tribal decks.
Also, I will pray they are merciful and not going to print a ton of new slivers or reprint a bunch of them from the past in Return to Dominaria. People might laugh at the thought, but I lived through sliver hell. It's the only lord loving tribe that can out-lord merfolk and beat that deck on versatility.
What "sliver hell"? As far as I can tell, the only time and place Slivers was a particularly strong force was circa 1999 Extended, and even there wasn't the top deck.
As a side note, it's really weird to look back at old decklists and see that people were using Oath of Druids to cheat into play cards like Triskelion.
Right now the reason 5 color humans can exist is because Ancient Ziggurat, Cavern of Souls, and Unclaimed Territory give 12 painless sources of rainbow mana. Plus they are playing Vial so their creatures are often instants with bodies. I'm not really sure how people are worried about storm when this 12x painless rainbow land mayhem is only going to get better as they print more and more creatures going forward.
The thing is, the only reason Ancient Ziggurat/Cavern of Souls/Unclaimed Territory works for Humans is that all of its creatures are the same type. This kind of manabase is very much restricted to tribal decks.
Also, I will pray they are merciful and not going to print a ton of new slivers or reprint a bunch of them from the past in Return to Dominaria. People might laugh at the thought, but I lived through sliver hell. It's the only lord loving tribe that can out-lord merfolk and beat that deck on versatility.
What "sliver hell"? As far as I can tell, the only time and place Slivers was a particularly strong force was circa 1999 Extended, and even there wasn't the top deck.
As a side note, it's really weird to look back at old decklists and see that people were using Oath of Druids to cheat into play cards like Triskelion.
Slivers was the top deck in a lot of places back in 1999, as there wasn't the kind of networking we have today with forums and such. My own area was plagued with nothing but sliver players for literally months on end and I swore if I ever saw another sliver deck back then I was going to start flipping tables. You had little Timmy playing slivers casually, Joe the competitive grinder playing slivers, your best friend playing slivers, it was just relentless. I'd say a good analogy would be energy decks in standard right now. I don't think there's anything like that in modern yet. Usually there's enough variety on the top end that people generally all play different things.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
In other news, Standard is looking super awful again. 50% of the collective GP T8 was energy. Energy won two of the GP and won the recent PT, which itself had 50% of the T8 on energy and 40%+ of the Day 1, Day 2, and similar conversions into 18+, 21+, and 24+ brackets. I don't know how Wizards will react to this, especially if they receive negative feedback from TOs and LGS owners about attendance. But I do know R&D will dedicate resources to analyzing this situation.
How does that relate to Modern? I expect it means there's an even lower chance we see any changes in the January 2018 update. This was already unlikely per the last B&R update, and Standard's state probably makes it less likely still. I also think it will challenge the ridiculous Wizards platform of "less data, less format solving." Despite players having limited data (the MTGO changes took effect over the summer), Standard still got solved. This will hopefully serve as an indictment of that absurd stance and lead to more data release, not less. At the least, I think it will lead to more internal Wizards conversations.
If Standard is looking that bad, I agree that the next announcement, we won't get anything, which we already weren't gonna, UNLESS, and I don't believe it, but just spitballing, Wizards decides to deflect a little bit of the rage for what I can only ASSUME would be another set of Standard bannings, by unbanning a card in another format. Unlikely. Either way,if that is the case, I don't see how there could not be more Standard bannings, which would HAVE to also mean people getting fired at Wizards, right? I mean, this is just silly, this is what I read about Affinity back in the day. maybe NOW they will pull out all the stops and pack some 'too strong for Standard' answers to always be legal
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How does that relate to Modern? I expect it means there's an even lower chance we see any changes in the January 2018 update. This was already unlikely per the last B&R update, and Standard's state probably makes it less likely still. I also think it will challenge the ridiculous Wizards platform of "less data, less format solving." Despite players having limited data (the MTGO changes took effect over the summer), Standard still got solved. This will hopefully serve as an indictment of that absurd stance and lead to more data release, not less. At the least, I think it will lead to more internal Wizards conversations.
I tweeted AF and MaRo about giving us reasonable data, since their curtain isn't doing anything to make formats better. Doubt I will get an answer.
Also, I FULLY expect nothing to happen in January anyway, regardless of Standard. But I also FULLY expect something banned and/or unbanned immediately after, as a response to whatever garbage fire shenanigans happen at the PT.
Just want to say I'm really interested in metagames and understanding the nuances and changes in the game we play.
But that's not what people are talking about in this thread. It's almost entirely the same small group of people cyclically talking about bans, which is something else entirely and not a helpful discussion.
I mean I hardly believed it as I read it but someone actually advocated a humans ban a few posts earlier....???
Anyway like I said, I check this thread fairly often because actually I like to read and talk about metagames and new developments (I know right? Shock horror!), but that's not what happens here so I'm bowing out. At times its felt like reading a flat-earth forum in the way arguments are presented or re-hashed, and I can't be doing with it. I'll look elsewhere for my metagame discussion. Who knows, maybe even reddit can oblige.
Later peeps. Enjoy the ban talk.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
i think past in flames would look better next to my eye of ugin, splinter twin and gitaxian probes. So if they were going to ban my 4th modern deck (and 5th deck overall) in a row since KTK, I'd hope they went for the better looking card.
Sounds like you prefer to play the absolute best deck possible and could be why you're seeing all these bans?
If storm is edging close to blooms wins then that's an issue
And while goblins may not have had an rptq with any of storm, I know at least one storm made it to the top 8 of the IQ I attended yesterday (I got 9th place with regular jund, so close!)
I do think 5 color shadow, humans and shadow will be big in the pro tour unless there's a major new meta shift.
Right now, I think decks that deal with aggro and storm are in a nice spot right now for the time being
Story time!
1. Marc starts his modern journey during KTK with Grixis delver. Its fun, challenging and the learning curve is pretty steep but rewarding.
2. Tired of being destroyed by goblin guides, marc observes twin does pretty good. He buys a playset of twin and the pestermites and exarchs.
3. Twin gets banned 3 months later. Bah. Its Jan 2016 and Eldrazi looks sweet. I'll play that. Buys temples and plays BW Eldrazi processors, which is pretty cool and does OK in the meta.
4. JC Tao and bunch of other people crush PT OGW with Eldrazi.
5. Eye gets banned in April. Bah. Well, Marc has Kiln fiends and a UR manabase, he'll play Kiln Fiend! Titi looks pretty cool!
6. Probe gets banned. You know what, Marc is getting pretty sick of modern and its bans. Standard doesn't really see bans so...
7. Marc buys 4 Saheelis for $80 and the her cats. Playing twin-like in Standard should be fun!
8. Cats are banned. Haha, ha. Ha.
9. Right, back to modern then. I can go back to grixis delver and elves.
10. Crushed by wurmcoils, karns.
11. Now crushed worse by TKS, Smashers.
12. Marc researches how not to go 0-3 / 1-2 consecutively for 5 weeks FNMs playing against Tron decks.
13. Buys into Storm and goes 3-0 for 5 weeks against Trons before meeting a Burn deck that breaks the streak. It seems Burn decks crush Storm pretty handily!
And here we are! I can't retreat to Kiln Fiend this time, and I'm adverse to shelling out money for Noble Hierarchs to go Bant, or Chalices for Etron, because if you notice Modern likes to burn me. So cheap decks its going to have to be. If they can crush tron (I hate tron thiiiiiiiis much) then I'll definitely play it.
Story time indicates to me you're lacking a fundamental understanding of the game itself. Now, I'll conceede and give you the twin banning, very few saw that coming.
But that you didn't sell out of eyes, that you bought the saheeli combo in standard? I'm sorry, this is very much on you. Purchases like those are for someone who wants to spike a tournament real quick and know the decks life expectancy.
You're attracted to degenerate combos, which is fine, but you have to understand that mechanics like that are usually at more risk.
I hope you know you're investment in storm may very well burn you in Feb If results for it stay strong. Now, if it calms down, has a relatively quiet showing at the pro tour and isn't eating mtgo up, it's definitely safe
I'm annoyed because I don't think you read stories very well.
I bought into twin because it wasn't a huge jump from Delver, I only had to buy the combo itself because the rest was mostly the same. Biggest reason for the change was because I was doing badly against burn (there were no UR fastlands at the time).
I bought into Eyes before they spiked. If you look at the sequence of events, I bought in before PT OGW, which was literally right after my twin got banned. I had a bunch of BW eldrazi, TKS and reality smashers lying around from cracking packs, and eyes were what, $30-40? BW Processors were not broken, and Eldrazi in general were regarded as strong but not banworthy. Up till that crazy PT.
Saheeli combo in standard; were people talking about a ban? Yes they were; they were whining for Mardu Vehicles to be banned. Pros were whining about it; people were drawing comics about how every other match up was vehicles. Well, that did happen in the end. But there was comparatively less noise surrounding Saheeli and her cats.
And finally probe. Did you say something about this too? Well, it would have done great in storm but I wasn't playing storm before then.
The thing that drew me to storm wasn't the fact it was a degenerate combo. Its the fact that its the cheapest way I can beat Tron. Over and over until nobody wants to play that skill-less, toxic, sickening deck.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
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On the one hand, I understand your frustration. I argued against more bans than I can remember in this thread in 2017 alone, fully support the squashing of ban mania, and have been a major "No changes" defender throughout the year.
On the other hand, Storm may be the first deck in 2017 where we actually have data a) to assess the bannability of Storm cards in the first place and b) that might actually prove Storm has a bannable card. One or both of these were not the case in all previous instances of MTGS/Reddit/article ban mania throughout 2017. I think by November 2017, people are just exhausted with 2017 ban complaints. Off the top of my head, I remember major periods of ban complaint aimed at Temple, DS, Tron lands, Chalice, CoCo, Mox, Puresteel Paladin, SSG, Street Wraith, Thoughtseize, and Cavern of Souls. It was exhausting to encounter that daily ban mania focused on so many unjustifiable ban suggestions, and I too am tired of hearing about bans in this thread.
Unfortunately, Storm might actually be bannable, and we might actually have the data to discuss it in a meaningful way. It's a classic "boy/girl who cried wolf" situation. After 10+ instances ban mania gripped Modern throughout 2017, we finally encounter a deck we should be discussing, but some/many people are so fed up with ban talk that they don't want to. That's a reasonable and understandable position, and I empathize with it. But it does not mean the Storm ban talk is unjustified. Rather, it just means much of the previous ban talk was unjustified and we're all so tired of it when finally discussing a deck that needs discussion.
It's pretty bad particularly if storm is on the play. Eldrazi only has 2 dismember to deal with cost reducers (sometimes Warping Wail to hit Baral too) and its other interaction is 4 Thoughtknot Seer, Karn, and Chalice. Once they start to go off Chalice on 1 doesn't matter, Karn is definitely not reliable, and Thoughtknot seer is sometimes too late and usually not enough.
Not only that, what's often overlooked about Grapeshot is it can work as something other than a win condition, most notably removal. Is a Thalia ruining your day? Just cast a single Grapeshot and it's gone and you can combo off. You can't do that with Empty the Warrens which requires you to run some removal (e.g. Lightning Bolts) maindeck which in turn requires you to lower consistency by removing rituals or cantrips. Need to stall a little against an aggro deck? Cast a few spells, then Grapeshot to take out their attackers before going for the kill later (admittedly, Empty the Warrens can be used to stonewall the opponent with chump blockers, but again the efficiency is worse). It also makes cards like Meddling Mage or Surgical Extraction more powerful because you only have one win condition, so naming Grapeshot doesn't open you up to Empty the Warrens. I suppose they could try something like Ignite Memories as the backup win condition, but that's a whole lot worse.
Again, all of this is if Storm receives a ban, which I don't necessarily support. But if it does, then I think anything other than Grapeshot is laughable.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Postboard it seems they've got a lot of stuff to bring in. Look at this list; Grafdigger's Cage and Relic of Progenitus to hate on their graveyards, Spatial Contortion and Warping Wail to remove their enablers, and Ratchet Bomb to wipe away any tokens. Reminds me of Tron when Splinter Twin was around, which tended to pack so many hate cards that its typically weak Game 1 could be made up for by having all of those cards in Game 2 and 3 (see this list for example, when Twin was legal--that number of Boils is a bit uncommon, but their "typical" replacements would've consisted of at least a few Spellskites which is good against Twin as well).
I mean, the guy I know has been playing EldraziTron for a while, so I expect he's probably right in his assessment of it being a positive matchup on the whole.
Well I personally disagree with Maro about his storm scale, and that certain mecahnics like dredge and storm is what makes mtg so great in the first place, but I'd rather not get into this topic here.
The turn 3/4 rule is something worth discussing and i think it has always been way too vague of a rule.
Anyways, Storm has so much hate vs it especially post board that i think its current iteration in the current meta shouldnt call for a ban at all
edit:
Then say goodby to the deck. deck complexity and skill testing didnt stop the ban on Summer Bloom, the most difficult tier 1 deck modern's seen in a long time by a long shot
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
What concerns are those?
I could use a little elaboration on this one as well.
On a sidenote, dredge taking the win this round.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
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It's actually nothing to do with the deck being bad for the format itself as much as there being enough creatures of the human subtype in modern along with enough rainbow lands to make a 5 color deck viable.
I'm always leery of modern turning into nothing but rainbow decks of different types because fixing becomes far too viable.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
And yet when people adjust and play the best possible hate card against 5-color goodstuff (Blood Moon), people scream for Blood Moon's ban.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
In the history of Magic, Blood Moon has been a reasonably fair card, so I think it's interesting that Modern players seem to despise it. Part of that dislike comes from the comparably slow speed of Modern; Blood Moon is less impactful in Vintage and Legacy because they're faster. Part of it also comes from Modern's weak counterspells; in Legacy and Vintage, Blood Moon is less likely to resolve, whereas in Modern it is largely kept in check by targeted discard. Another part comes from how difficult enchantments are to interact with in general, a concept that Bogles takes to the extreme.
But despite the complaining, Blood Moon remains an important police card in Modern. The problem is that it's one of very few police cards in the format. Thoughtseize is another great police card, but we just need more of them that work on different axes. In Legacy, things like Wasteland, Force of Will, and even Cabal Therapy act as police cards. We don't need those things in Modern, but we do need more cards like those things. Right now, the police cards in the format are homogenized and not diverse, so players basically find themselves choose between all-in strategies or being some kind of police deck.
5-color humans is an all-in strategy, like Affinity. It's a little more interactive than Affinity, but it still wins by hoping to not bump into its weaknesses at a tournament. I like that the deck exists, but I just don't like how many decks in the format basically encourage players to ignore their opponents.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
1. Affinity is the better deck with a higher constant metagame share, so it stays in most players' minds even when it's having a bad couple weeks. Plus, perhaps obviously, more players are on the deck.
2. Graveyard hate has wider applications than artifact hate, so players are less likely to pack dedicated hate cards for Dredge (Surgical and Relic are much less effective vs. the deck than, say, Leyline and Rest in Peace, but are better-suited to open metagames for their added utility).
These factors combine to ensure Dredge rises and falls in bursts less noticeable than Affinity's, and that it takes longer to do so. The sky is definitely not falling when Dredge goes from 1% to 3%; check the standings again in a month or two.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Right now the reason 5 color humans can exist is because Ancient Ziggurat, Cavern of Souls, and Unclaimed Territory give 12 painless sources of rainbow mana. Plus they are playing Vial so their creatures are often instants with bodies. I'm not really sure how people are worried about storm when this 12x painless rainbow land mayhem is only going to get better as they print more and more creatures going forward. Also, I will pray they are merciful and not going to print a ton of new slivers or reprint a bunch of them from the past in Return to Dominaria. People might laugh at the thought, but I lived through sliver hell. It's the only lord loving tribe that can out-lord merfolk and beat that deck on versatility.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
What "sliver hell"? As far as I can tell, the only time and place Slivers was a particularly strong force was circa 1999 Extended, and even there wasn't the top deck.
As a side note, it's really weird to look back at old decklists and see that people were using Oath of Druids to cheat into play cards like Triskelion.
then why do you use so many statistics.
honestly confused, diva.
Slivers was the top deck in a lot of places back in 1999, as there wasn't the kind of networking we have today with forums and such. My own area was plagued with nothing but sliver players for literally months on end and I swore if I ever saw another sliver deck back then I was going to start flipping tables. You had little Timmy playing slivers casually, Joe the competitive grinder playing slivers, your best friend playing slivers, it was just relentless. I'd say a good analogy would be energy decks in standard right now. I don't think there's anything like that in modern yet. Usually there's enough variety on the top end that people generally all play different things.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
How does that relate to Modern? I expect it means there's an even lower chance we see any changes in the January 2018 update. This was already unlikely per the last B&R update, and Standard's state probably makes it less likely still. I also think it will challenge the ridiculous Wizards platform of "less data, less format solving." Despite players having limited data (the MTGO changes took effect over the summer), Standard still got solved. This will hopefully serve as an indictment of that absurd stance and lead to more data release, not less. At the least, I think it will lead to more internal Wizards conversations.
Also, I FULLY expect nothing to happen in January anyway, regardless of Standard. But I also FULLY expect something banned and/or unbanned immediately after, as a response to whatever garbage fire shenanigans happen at the PT.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
But that's not what people are talking about in this thread. It's almost entirely the same small group of people cyclically talking about bans, which is something else entirely and not a helpful discussion.
I mean I hardly believed it as I read it but someone actually advocated a humans ban a few posts earlier....???
Anyway like I said, I check this thread fairly often because actually I like to read and talk about metagames and new developments (I know right? Shock horror!), but that's not what happens here so I'm bowing out. At times its felt like reading a flat-earth forum in the way arguments are presented or re-hashed, and I can't be doing with it. I'll look elsewhere for my metagame discussion. Who knows, maybe even reddit can oblige.
Later peeps. Enjoy the ban talk.
I'm annoyed because I don't think you read stories very well.
I bought into twin because it wasn't a huge jump from Delver, I only had to buy the combo itself because the rest was mostly the same. Biggest reason for the change was because I was doing badly against burn (there were no UR fastlands at the time).
I bought into Eyes before they spiked. If you look at the sequence of events, I bought in before PT OGW, which was literally right after my twin got banned. I had a bunch of BW eldrazi, TKS and reality smashers lying around from cracking packs, and eyes were what, $30-40? BW Processors were not broken, and Eldrazi in general were regarded as strong but not banworthy. Up till that crazy PT.
Saheeli combo in standard; were people talking about a ban? Yes they were; they were whining for Mardu Vehicles to be banned. Pros were whining about it; people were drawing comics about how every other match up was vehicles. Well, that did happen in the end. But there was comparatively less noise surrounding Saheeli and her cats.
And finally probe. Did you say something about this too? Well, it would have done great in storm but I wasn't playing storm before then.
The thing that drew me to storm wasn't the fact it was a degenerate combo. Its the fact that its the cheapest way I can beat Tron. Over and over until nobody wants to play that skill-less, toxic, sickening deck.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR