Is it too much to ask for a modern format where Midrange is on top, aggro and control comprise a solid tier 2, and at the bottom are the fringe strategies that are ok in small amounts but make for an awful meta when they rise to the top such as ramp and linear combo decks?
Or should I just shut up and play standard where the format is almost precisely as I have described above?
Is it too much to ask for a modern format where Midrange is on top, aggro and control comprise a solid tier 2, and at the bottom are the fringe strategies that are ok in small amounts but make for an awful meta when they rise to the top such as ramp and linear combo decks?
Or should I just shut up and play standard where the format is almost precisely as I have described above?
That sounds 100% awful. So yes, it is far to much to ask. Goodstuff.pile is a deck that is impossible to meta game against in a meaningful way. The worse it is, the better the format is. Consider the following: Storm and Jund are built with the same strategy in mind - make your opponents cards as irrelevant as possible. Storm does something that is hard to interact with. Jund Thoughtseizes you into oblivion then goldfishes you with Tarmogoyfs, while they top deck the best cards in the format. Would you rather play against something you can hate on, or something you can't?
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
It's encouraging to see MTGO lean so heavily interactive. MTGO is historically more linear than paper, so if it has lots of interaction, that generally indicates the paper metagame will follow. On the flip side, MTGO trends can change very quickly whereas paper tends to have more inertia. So we'll see if this lasts.
Either way, I'm feeling cautiously optimistic heading into the PT.
And just like that, the talk of Big Tron being oppressive will at least ease up a bit.
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Is it too much to ask for a modern format where Midrange is on top, aggro and control comprise a solid tier 2, and at the bottom are the fringe strategies that are ok in small amounts but make for an awful meta when they rise to the top such as ramp and linear combo decks?
Or should I just shut up and play standard where the format is almost precisely as I have described above?
That sounds 100% awful. So yes, it is far to much to ask. Goodstuff.pile is a deck that is impossible to meta game against in a meaningful way. The worse it is, the better the format is. Consider the following: Storm and Jund are built with the same strategy in mind - make your opponents cards as irrelevant as possible. Storm does something that is hard to interact with. Jund Thoughtseizes you into oblivion then goldfishes you with Tarmogoyfs, while they top deck the best cards in the format. Would you rather play against something you can hate on, or something you can't?
That quite honestly rubbish.
Goodstuff.pile loses to decks that topdeck more powerful cards. Tron, Valakut, even the blue-white and jeskai control decks can all topdeck cards which are on average better than Jund or whatever else you consider goodstuff.pile.
In fact, if you use "topdeck the best cards in the format" as the criterion for goodstuff.pile, I would say Tron falls more firmly into that category as what is more powerful than topdecking Karn, Wormcoil Engine, Ugin, or Ulamog.
In order to one-up midrange decks like Jund, you just go BIGGER. So to say you cannot hate on them is quite blatantly false
Is it too much to ask for a modern format where Midrange is on top, aggro and control comprise a solid tier 2, and at the bottom are the fringe strategies that are ok in small amounts but make for an awful meta when they rise to the top such as ramp and linear combo decks?
Or should I just shut up and play standard where the format is almost precisely as I have described above?
If that is Standard, then Modern should be fundamentally different.
Modern is traditionally and fundamentally about Plan A and Plan B decks.
e.g. in the days of Pod- Plan A- grind you out with value, Plan B combo or vice versa
or Amulet - Plan A combo, plan B, just ramp to a Titan slowly.
Twin needed no introduction as both control and combo. That is the defining feature of many modern decks.
Decks today such as Titanshift do the same.
Even Ad Nauseam has two ways of winning- Maniac and targeted kill via LS, and fringe decks like Enduring Ideal manage to be both combo and Prison.
For me that is why I like the format, in its own way. Decks have modes. Midrange like Jund fundamentally does not. Instead it has the best one drops in terms of discard with no predatory card to stop them and leave you high and dry other than Leyline of Sanctity, which is main deckable in fringe decks only. Even then it can be removed as Jund can kill almost anything outside of an accompanied totem'ed up boggle.
Few decks just do one thing- and running the best removal/discard and value does not get you to the top in Modern, which is how I like it, entirely personal preference, but for my money if you chose to run midrange there should be a deck that absolutely wipes the floor with it, and given the nature of Jund's weapons that will never be the case. It will lose, but it will not have the pilot saying "oh no I am up against X", unlike many other decks int the format. Once there is a forest it can kill a Blood Moon, once it has GB then Abrupt Decay will kill key permanents regardless of the enemy holding a counter. If the format was chock full of hexproof effects and plenty of decks to punish greedy manabases then fair enough, but it isn't, and playing efficient threats and the best way to remove them sounds like you want to have the cake and eat it. If the format had amazing one cc stuff or fast mana that meant that a t1 discard spell followed by removal or bob and lilly + removal/goyf t4 was not always great then fair enough, but it won't do that, and t1 discard t2 bob, t3 lilly t4 bloodbraid or 2 x 2cc plays would always be super which is why jund has lost its tools over the years. BBE and DRS were reasonable bans at the time. No more quality one drops will be forthcoming in the format, fast mana won't be improved, meaning white and blue get to do very little whilst black midrange Jund or Junk pecks at its hand on the play and follows by a bob and more pressure. That is why I am glad there are decks that can withstand the early discard and just "go off", ensuring Jund is where it is. They are much easier to hate on than Good stuff TM. So in short yes, lets keep Jund and its midrange mates exactly where they are now.
Is it too much to ask for a modern format where Midrange is on top, aggro and control comprise a solid tier 2, and at the bottom are the fringe strategies that are ok in small amounts but make for an awful meta when they rise to the top such as ramp and linear combo decks?
Or should I just shut up and play standard where the format is almost precisely as I have described above?
That sounds 100% awful. So yes, it is far to much to ask. Goodstuff.pile is a deck that is impossible to meta game against in a meaningful way. The worse it is, the better the format is. Consider the following: Storm and Jund are built with the same strategy in mind - make your opponents cards as irrelevant as possible. Storm does something that is hard to interact with. Jund Thoughtseizes you into oblivion then goldfishes you with Tarmogoyfs, while they top deck the best cards in the format. Would you rather play against something you can hate on, or something you can't?
That quite honestly rubbish.
Goodstuff.pile loses to decks that topdeck more powerful cards. Tron, Valakut, even the blue-white and jeskai control decks can all topdeck cards which are on average better than Jund or whatever else you consider goodstuff.pile.
In fact, if you use "topdeck the best cards in the format" as the criterion for goodstuff.pile, I would say Tron falls more firmly into that category as what is more powerful than topdecking Karn, Wormcoil Engine, Ugin, or Ulamog.
In order to one-up midrange decks like Jund, you just go BIGGER. So to say you cannot hate on them is quite blatantly false
The difference that you are missing, is that Tron isn't actively making what I do worse. They are just doing their thing and I can choose to build my deck to beat Tron, same way I can choose to build my deck to beat storm. You've missed my point entirely. You can hate Tron away. You can hate Storm away. You can Dredge, Affinity, whatever away. You cannot hate Jund away. If the answer to beating Jund is to go bigger, we just turn the format into garbage battlecruiser stuff that zero people want. (Evidence: Standard's continual decline in popularity.)
Jund is fine as a solid tier two option.
Furthermore, you've ignored my point about Jund being poster child for complete non games of magic. Thoughtseize, Liliana, and co. are just as much a part of the non interactive puzzle as any other such thing. There were two wonderful posts on Reddit that I've screen capture for you to check out.
Well said. Midrange decks saying they can't beat Tron ever at all, meanwhile Affinity vs UWR or Jund is just terrible. Why should one style of deck go unpreyed upon? Every deck needs predators. This other guy doesn't get it.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
Are people really saying that Jund can't be hated away? There are plenty of cards, and decks, that can be run to hate on Jund. There is a reason Jund isn't performing all that well for nearly all this last year.
Mostly by Eldrazi and Scapeshift, two decks people are clamoring to be banned. Somewhat theoretically speaking, (this happens in Standard, so I'm citing that) if Midrange is the best deck in a format without ramp, the best counter deck is Midrange +1, which loses to Midrange +2, which is so mid-y and range-y that Midrange can sneak under it. But no matter how you slice it, it's not a desirable outcome to have your format be ever escalating and de-escalating midrange decks. This is battlecruiser magic at its finest. We know this is a bad outcome or else the last six years of Standard would have been much more popular. Having Tron in the format means decks like Infect and Storm are sometimes good, which is a good thing. It allows the format to shift the top dog from Midrange to Ramp to Combo, instead of Midrange to bigger Midrange to bigger Midrange.
It's worth noting that this whole time midrange has been bad, everyone was praising modern for being super diverse and healthy.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
@Exatraz, did you even read my latest post? The numbers literally prove you wrong. Tron is fine. If you want to win it there are ways. Even if you are a Control player, you can go UW Control with Spreading Seas and Field Of Ruins all playsets. If you want to smash them, add 1-2 Ceremonious Rejection and 1-2 Disdainful Stroke in your sideboard. The first card is also great vs other popular colourless or artifact decks like Lantern, Affinity, Eldrazis and the second one is great vs Scapeshift or Titanshift decks, great in the UW Walker mirrors, Storm, Ad Nauseam.
I did read your comments but you are also wrong. It does warp the format. The fact the death shadow decks have moved to running Temur Battle Rage and cutting IoK is further examples of them having to warp to adjust to Tron. Titanshift is far less of a problem but Tron has warped the format.
All due respect, one thing I disagree with a lot at this forum is with how much light-hearted you all use the word "warping". The Temur Battle Rage and all of the other additions is called adjustment and not warping. If you want to see what warping is, you should go back to the Eldrazi Winter. To consider a certain situation warping, it needs to last in time. During Eldrazi Winter, even if some weeks/months passed, all decks were just Eldrazi or silly things like Living End or Big Game Hunter mainboard decks that used to beat up on Eldrazi.
To consider a certain situation warping, you should remember the times when Burn used to splash U to play Treasure Cruise.
While, adjustment takes some time to go from THIS(3ple DS top 8) into THIS(no DS Top 16).
Modern is a format that is constantly in flux and moves in waves. Tron made a 3ple Top 8. So what? Modern just adjusted in the last PTQ and will probably adjust in the next large event, that is the PT.
But to even accept that Tron is warping, that's really fine. Because Tron is no more warping than many other Modern decks, all Tier 1 decks to be honest.
You could play UWx with Seas and Field of Ruins hoping to beat Tron but you lose to most of the other decks in the field. That is the problem.
What? Are you sure about that? UW Control has pretty cool finishes at the moment. It just Top 32'd the latest GP also. Do you think that the top 32 player got to the top 32 by "losing to most of the other decks"? Do you think UW Control loses to midrange, do you think it loses to aggro? Do you think it loses to Affinity, Death's Shadow(LUL!), or Affinity, or Infect, or Living End? Or BGx? If this is comment is not a hyperbole, I literally don't know what is.
Yes, UW Control has some difficult matchups in the form of Ad Nauseam, Dredge and Storm. Those three in particular feel almost unbeatable. All other matchups are super winnable.
Also, to even accept Tron warped the decks in the last PTQ and those decks procceded to totally wipe it off is super. You know, even if you were warping yourself 100% and playing 4 Blood Moon in the Eldrazi era, there was a pretty big chance that you were going to lose.
To consider a deck in Modern as a warping one :
1) The deck that is warping the format, should be able to fight through hate and the warping nature of that format.
2) It also should be able to stay as the deck to beat or as a top-tier deck for a long time.
Neither Death's Shadow variants, nor Tron, not Storm not even any other deck is able to do that currently.
Tron, in particular is on and off of Tier 1 for many, many years.
When was Tron actually top dog? I dont really remember
Jund has pretty much been a tier 3 deck since push was printed, Shadow decks became more efficient, and combinations of E-Tron and ramp became fairly uncontested.
Jund is not leaving tier 3 until something huge and new is printed or BBE is unbanned. I don't think BBE would elevate it to tier 1, I imagine just tier 2.
If SFM is unbanned and BBE isn't, Jund easily replicates how infect died in most of 2017.
I'm not sure BBE would even elevate Jund. There's a real question as to how many should be played, and that answer might just be zero.
Are people really saying that Jund can't be hated away? There are plenty of cards, and decks, that can be run to hate on Jund. There is a reason Jund isn't performing all that well for nearly all this last year.
Mostly by Eldrazi and Scapeshift, two decks people are clamoring to be banned. Somewhat theoretically speaking, (this happens in Standard, so I'm citing that) if Midrange is the best deck in a format without ramp, the best counter deck is Midrange +1, which loses to Midrange +2, which is so mid-y and range-y that Midrange can sneak under it. But no matter how you slice it, it's not a desirable outcome to have your format be ever escalating and de-escalating midrange decks. This is battlecruiser magic at its finest. We know this is a bad outcome or else the last six years of Standard would have been much more popular. Having Tron in the format means decks like Infect and Storm are sometimes good, which is a good thing. It allows the format to shift the top dog from Midrange to Ramp to Combo, instead of Midrange to bigger Midrange to bigger Midrange.
It's worth noting that this whole time midrange has been bad, everyone was praising modern for being super diverse and healthy.
You cannot hate Jund away. If the answer to beating Jund is to go bigger, we just turn the format into garbage battlecruiser stuff that zero people want. (Evidence: Standard's continual decline in popularity.)
But going bigger is precisely how to hate Jund away. And it doesn't turn the format into a garbage battlecruiser, because in order to beat the bigger decks you go super small to sneak under them (e.g. infect). Although, as I have stated in a previous post, the option to go super small needs to be available in order to keep the big decks in check. This was somewhat hampered with the Gitaxian Probe ban
@Exatraz, did you even read my latest post? The numbers literally prove you wrong. Tron is fine. If you want to win it there are ways. Even if you are a Control player, you can go UW Control with Spreading Seas and Field Of Ruins all playsets. If you want to smash them, add 1-2 Ceremonious Rejection and 1-2 Disdainful Stroke in your sideboard. The first card is also great vs other popular colourless or artifact decks like Lantern, Affinity, Eldrazis and the second one is great vs Scapeshift or Titanshift decks, great in the UW Walker mirrors, Storm, Ad Nauseam.
I did read your comments but you are also wrong. It does warp the format. The fact the death shadow decks have moved to running Temur Battle Rage and cutting IoK is further examples of them having to warp to adjust to Tron. Titanshift is far less of a problem but Tron has warped the format.
All due respect, one thing I disagree with a lot at this forum is with how much light-hearted you all use the word "warping". The Temur Battle Rage and all of the other additions is called adjustment and not warping. If you want to see what warping is, you should go back to the Eldrazi Winter. To consider a certain situation warping, it needs to last in time. During Eldrazi Winter, even if some weeks/months passed, all decks were just Eldrazi or silly things like Living End or Big Game Hunter mainboard decks that used to beat up on Eldrazi.
To consider a certain situation warping, you should remember the times when Burn used to splash U to play Treasure Cruise.
While, adjustment takes some time to go from THIS(3ple DS top 8) into THIS(no DS Top 16).
Modern is a format that is constantly in flux and moves in waves. Tron made a 3ple Top 8. So what? Modern just adjusted in the last PTQ and will probably adjust in the next large event, that is the PT.
But to even accept that Tron is warping, that's really fine. Because Tron is no more warping than many other Modern decks, all Tier 1 decks to be honest.
You could play UWx with Seas and Field of Ruins hoping to beat Tron but you lose to most of the other decks in the field. That is the problem.
What? Are you sure about that? UW Control has pretty cool finishes at the moment. It just Top 32'd the latest GP also. Do you think that the top 32 player got to the top 32 by "losing to most of the other decks"? Do you think UW Control loses to midrange, do you think it loses to aggro? Do you think it loses to Affinity, Death's Shadow(LUL!), or Affinity, or Infect, or Living End? Or BGx? If this is comment is not a hyperbole, I literally don't know what is.
Yes, UW Control has some difficult matchups in the form of Ad Nauseam, Dredge and Storm. Those three in particular feel almost unbeatable. All other matchups are super winnable.
Also, to even accept Tron warped the decks in the last PTQ and those decks procceded to totally wipe it off is super. You know, even if you were warping yourself 100% and playing 4 Blood Moon in the Eldrazi era, there was a pretty big chance that you were going to lose.
To consider a deck in Modern as a warping one :
1) The deck that is warping the format, should be able to fight through hate and the warping nature of that format.
2) It also should be able to stay as the deck to beat or as a top-tier deck for a long time.
Neither Death's Shadow variants, nor Tron, not Storm not even any other deck is able to do that currently.
Tron, in particular is on and off of Tier 1 for many, many years.
When was Tron actually top dog? I dont really remember
Tron was Tier 1 between ~2015 and the eye of ugin ban. splinter twin and infect were both tier 1 as well though.
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Are people really saying that Jund can't be hated away? There are plenty of cards, and decks, that can be run to hate on Jund. There is a reason Jund isn't performing all that well for nearly all this last year.
Mostly by Eldrazi and Scapeshift, two decks people are clamoring to be banned. Somewhat theoretically speaking, (this happens in Standard, so I'm citing that) if Midrange is the best deck in a format without ramp, the best counter deck is Midrange +1, which loses to Midrange +2, which is so mid-y and range-y that Midrange can sneak under it. But no matter how you slice it, it's not a desirable outcome to have your format be ever escalating and de-escalating midrange decks. This is battlecruiser magic at its finest. We know this is a bad outcome or else the last six years of Standard would have been much more popular. Having Tron in the format means decks like Infect and Storm are sometimes good, which is a good thing. It allows the format to shift the top dog from Midrange to Ramp to Combo, instead of Midrange to bigger Midrange to bigger Midrange.
It's worth noting that this whole time midrange has been bad, everyone was praising modern for being super diverse and healthy.
You cannot hate Jund away. If the answer to beating Jund is to go bigger, we just turn the format into garbage battlecruiser stuff that zero people want. (Evidence: Standard's continual decline in popularity.)
But going bigger is precisely how to hate Jund away. And it doesn't turn the format into a garbage battlecruiser, because in order to beat the bigger decks you go super small to sneak under them (e.g. infect). Although, as I have stated in a previous post, the option to go super small needs to be available in order to keep the big decks in check. This was somewhat hampered with the Gitaxian Probe ban
Tron is not a midrange deck. It dedicates 12 slots to finding land cards and runs zero cards looking to trade one for one. If you think some circle jerk of of Jund < Abzan < Grixis < Jund is an enjoyable format, I have nothing more to say to you.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
PV does read these boards from time to time, and has posted in the Modern forums. That said, he's also one of the best players to ever play the game and like Reid Duke puts out quality content now and then. This was a great article - thanks for highlighting it.
Have you guys noticed Grixis Shadow is exploding on mtggoldfish?
I've been playing so many games with the deck and I'm still so trash with it. It's so discouraging, I don't think I've ever played with such a difficult deck before (would put 5C shadow in there, too).
I'm close to giving up on the Shadow Archetypes and about to just stick with GBx with a side of Tron decks (since they're easy and straight-forward).
Have you guys noticed Grixis Shadow is exploding on mtggoldfish?
I've been playing so many games with the deck and I'm still so trash with it. It's so discouraging, I don't think I've ever played with such a difficult deck before (would put 5C shadow in there, too).
I'm close to giving up on the Shadow Archetypes and about to just stick with GBx with a side of Tron decks (since they're easy and straight-forward).
Yeah its definitely one of the harder modern decks to pilot, alongside affinity and lantern
On another note, im glad theyve finally renamed the Jeskai Control deck what it really is: Jeskai Geist
I've never played Lantern, but I think shadow decks are harder. I think a lot of people in these boards study up on modern enough you can understand what's in a decks 75.
Affinity is pretty tough to play well, I don't feel comfortable sequencing aggro decks, I absolutely hate not feeling like I'm in control, so that one is on a personal level.
I think what's frustrating in Grixis is that you'll get these openers with a ton of air but you can't mull it. So like, an opener with a serum/opt, street wraith, thought-scour, two lands, a push, one creature/random card.
And then of course the life management. Usually life is a resource in a normal deck, but the life total is also a win con in shadow decks so it's a lot to balance. It's interesting to read articles from pro's that say, "screw it, the decks difficulty isn't worth it, play a slightly worse deck that has has more potential to do very well".
I've been playing midrange for years, but I'm very certain I have a losing record with shadow decks.
I've been playing midrange for years, but I'm very certain I have a losing record with shadow decks.
I'm not sure Grixis Shadow is entirely a midrange deck. Midrange decks don't usually play cards like Temur Battle Rage. It's the best parts of midrange combined with the best parts of tempo decks like Delver.
There could be a Modern format without 8th and 9th, and players would adapt. On the other hand, the current format doesn't suffer from those editions so players can't adapt : Tron and Moon decks NEVER ever were the top decks of any metagame for more than one big event win, cause we had cards and archetypes that restored balance immediatly ; Boil never was a playable card in a format where Islands never dominated. Just to name a few.
This weird ban idea came up a few years ago (in a BBD's article iirc), and since then, new editions were printed, bans were done, so the opinions should take those things into consideration. Besides shaking up the format in a huge way - like a child would crush a sand castle just for the sake of fun -, banning those editions doesn't do anything that search, stats or experiments prove to make a better format. It's pure speculation and fantasy at this point, and always will be. It's already hard to figure out what a single card unbanned can do to the format...
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Have you guys noticed Grixis Shadow is exploding on mtggoldfish?
I've been playing so many games with the deck and I'm still so trash with it. It's so discouraging, I don't think I've ever played with such a difficult deck before (would put 5C shadow in there, too).
I'm close to giving up on the Shadow Archetypes and about to just stick with GBx with a side of Tron decks (since they're easy and straight-forward).
Yeah its definitely one of the harder modern decks to pilot, alongside affinity and lantern
On another note, im glad theyve finally renamed the Jeskai Control deck what it really is: Jeskai Geist
you know modern is linear/mindless when people are saying urx shadow decks are hard to play....
Try playing pod if you think shadow is hard. Oh wait they banned it.
Actually, bud, most pro's consider it one of the hardest decks in all of Magic history, so stop creating such bad posts
Or should I just shut up and play standard where the format is almost precisely as I have described above?
That sounds 100% awful. So yes, it is far to much to ask. Goodstuff.pile is a deck that is impossible to meta game against in a meaningful way. The worse it is, the better the format is. Consider the following: Storm and Jund are built with the same strategy in mind - make your opponents cards as irrelevant as possible. Storm does something that is hard to interact with. Jund Thoughtseizes you into oblivion then goldfishes you with Tarmogoyfs, while they top deck the best cards in the format. Would you rather play against something you can hate on, or something you can't?
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/modern-challenge-2017-12-24
It's encouraging to see MTGO lean so heavily interactive. MTGO is historically more linear than paper, so if it has lots of interaction, that generally indicates the paper metagame will follow. On the flip side, MTGO trends can change very quickly whereas paper tends to have more inertia. So we'll see if this lasts.
Either way, I'm feeling cautiously optimistic heading into the PT.
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Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)That quite honestly rubbish.
Goodstuff.pile loses to decks that topdeck more powerful cards. Tron, Valakut, even the blue-white and jeskai control decks can all topdeck cards which are on average better than Jund or whatever else you consider goodstuff.pile.
In fact, if you use "topdeck the best cards in the format" as the criterion for goodstuff.pile, I would say Tron falls more firmly into that category as what is more powerful than topdecking Karn, Wormcoil Engine, Ugin, or Ulamog.
In order to one-up midrange decks like Jund, you just go BIGGER. So to say you cannot hate on them is quite blatantly false
If that is Standard, then Modern should be fundamentally different.
Modern is traditionally and fundamentally about Plan A and Plan B decks.
e.g. in the days of Pod- Plan A- grind you out with value, Plan B combo or vice versa
or Amulet - Plan A combo, plan B, just ramp to a Titan slowly.
Twin needed no introduction as both control and combo. That is the defining feature of many modern decks.
Decks today such as Titanshift do the same.
Even Ad Nauseam has two ways of winning- Maniac and targeted kill via LS, and fringe decks like Enduring Ideal manage to be both combo and Prison.
For me that is why I like the format, in its own way. Decks have modes. Midrange like Jund fundamentally does not. Instead it has the best one drops in terms of discard with no predatory card to stop them and leave you high and dry other than Leyline of Sanctity, which is main deckable in fringe decks only. Even then it can be removed as Jund can kill almost anything outside of an accompanied totem'ed up boggle.
Few decks just do one thing- and running the best removal/discard and value does not get you to the top in Modern, which is how I like it, entirely personal preference, but for my money if you chose to run midrange there should be a deck that absolutely wipes the floor with it, and given the nature of Jund's weapons that will never be the case. It will lose, but it will not have the pilot saying "oh no I am up against X", unlike many other decks int the format. Once there is a forest it can kill a Blood Moon, once it has GB then Abrupt Decay will kill key permanents regardless of the enemy holding a counter. If the format was chock full of hexproof effects and plenty of decks to punish greedy manabases then fair enough, but it isn't, and playing efficient threats and the best way to remove them sounds like you want to have the cake and eat it. If the format had amazing one cc stuff or fast mana that meant that a t1 discard spell followed by removal or bob and lilly + removal/goyf t4 was not always great then fair enough, but it won't do that, and t1 discard t2 bob, t3 lilly t4 bloodbraid or 2 x 2cc plays would always be super which is why jund has lost its tools over the years. BBE and DRS were reasonable bans at the time. No more quality one drops will be forthcoming in the format, fast mana won't be improved, meaning white and blue get to do very little whilst black midrange Jund or Junk pecks at its hand on the play and follows by a bob and more pressure. That is why I am glad there are decks that can withstand the early discard and just "go off", ensuring Jund is where it is. They are much easier to hate on than Good stuff TM. So in short yes, lets keep Jund and its midrange mates exactly where they are now.
The difference that you are missing, is that Tron isn't actively making what I do worse. They are just doing their thing and I can choose to build my deck to beat Tron, same way I can choose to build my deck to beat storm. You've missed my point entirely. You can hate Tron away. You can hate Storm away. You can Dredge, Affinity, whatever away. You cannot hate Jund away. If the answer to beating Jund is to go bigger, we just turn the format into garbage battlecruiser stuff that zero people want. (Evidence: Standard's continual decline in popularity.)
Jund is fine as a solid tier two option.
Furthermore, you've ignored my point about Jund being poster child for complete non games of magic. Thoughtseize, Liliana, and co. are just as much a part of the non interactive puzzle as any other such thing. There were two wonderful posts on Reddit that I've screen capture for you to check out.
Well said. Midrange decks saying they can't beat Tron ever at all, meanwhile Affinity vs UWR or Jund is just terrible. Why should one style of deck go unpreyed upon? Every deck needs predators. This other guy doesn't get it.
Mostly by Eldrazi and Scapeshift, two decks people are clamoring to be banned. Somewhat theoretically speaking, (this happens in Standard, so I'm citing that) if Midrange is the best deck in a format without ramp, the best counter deck is Midrange +1, which loses to Midrange +2, which is so mid-y and range-y that Midrange can sneak under it. But no matter how you slice it, it's not a desirable outcome to have your format be ever escalating and de-escalating midrange decks. This is battlecruiser magic at its finest. We know this is a bad outcome or else the last six years of Standard would have been much more popular. Having Tron in the format means decks like Infect and Storm are sometimes good, which is a good thing. It allows the format to shift the top dog from Midrange to Ramp to Combo, instead of Midrange to bigger Midrange to bigger Midrange.
It's worth noting that this whole time midrange has been bad, everyone was praising modern for being super diverse and healthy.
When was Tron actually top dog? I dont really remember
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
I'm not sure BBE would even elevate Jund. There's a real question as to how many should be played, and that answer might just be zero.
You do realize that Tron is just Midrange taken to the extreme, right? Karn Liberated is Liliana of the Veil on steroids,Oblivion Stone is Abrupt Decay on crack, ect.
But going bigger is precisely how to hate Jund away. And it doesn't turn the format into a garbage battlecruiser, because in order to beat the bigger decks you go super small to sneak under them (e.g. infect). Although, as I have stated in a previous post, the option to go super small needs to be available in order to keep the big decks in check. This was somewhat hampered with the Gitaxian Probe ban
Tron was Tier 1 between ~2015 and the eye of ugin ban.
splinter twin and infect were both tier 1 as well though.
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
Tron is not a midrange deck. It dedicates 12 slots to finding land cards and runs zero cards looking to trade one for one. If you think some circle jerk of of Jund < Abzan < Grixis < Jund is an enjoyable format, I have nothing more to say to you.
Playing tron in these tournaments after the recent gp has been punished by players ready for them
Kind of sounds like minimax.
My response
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I've been playing so many games with the deck and I'm still so trash with it. It's so discouraging, I don't think I've ever played with such a difficult deck before (would put 5C shadow in there, too).
I'm close to giving up on the Shadow Archetypes and about to just stick with GBx with a side of Tron decks (since they're easy and straight-forward).
Yeah its definitely one of the harder modern decks to pilot, alongside affinity and lantern
On another note, im glad theyve finally renamed the Jeskai Control deck what it really is: Jeskai Geist
Affinity is pretty tough to play well, I don't feel comfortable sequencing aggro decks, I absolutely hate not feeling like I'm in control, so that one is on a personal level.
I think what's frustrating in Grixis is that you'll get these openers with a ton of air but you can't mull it. So like, an opener with a serum/opt, street wraith, thought-scour, two lands, a push, one creature/random card.
And then of course the life management. Usually life is a resource in a normal deck, but the life total is also a win con in shadow decks so it's a lot to balance. It's interesting to read articles from pro's that say, "screw it, the decks difficulty isn't worth it, play a slightly worse deck that has has more potential to do very well".
I've been playing midrange for years, but I'm very certain I have a losing record with shadow decks.
Have you tried jund shadow? It might be a weaker deck but covers a bunch of the basics for managing life total and when to hold/push for the win.
Legacy - LED Dredge, ANT & WDnT
I'm not sure Grixis Shadow is entirely a midrange deck. Midrange decks don't usually play cards like Temur Battle Rage. It's the best parts of midrange combined with the best parts of tempo decks like Delver.
This weird ban idea came up a few years ago (in a BBD's article iirc), and since then, new editions were printed, bans were done, so the opinions should take those things into consideration. Besides shaking up the format in a huge way - like a child would crush a sand castle just for the sake of fun -, banning those editions doesn't do anything that search, stats or experiments prove to make a better format. It's pure speculation and fantasy at this point, and always will be. It's already hard to figure out what a single card unbanned can do to the format...
Actually, bud, most pro's consider it one of the hardest decks in all of Magic history, so stop creating such bad posts
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
I always call shadow a midrange deck but that's wrong, it is tempo.
I'm really certain bbe is getting unbanned after the tour, I'm not sure i have ever felt this confident
The only way it isn't happening is if wotc has too focus on standard, which is a dumpster fire right now
If wotc feels bbe and sfm are too strong even now I think the cards truly are banned forever