If someone says man that matchup is tough from my experience and you say prove it, how are you being productive in the argument at all.
I am simply asking that they show how they arrived at that conclusion. I'm not saying it's true, nor am I saying it's not true. I'm simply asking for them to fulfill their burden of proof.
All your doing is refuting everyone unless they have data? Anecdotal means zilch in this world does it? Because I disagree. And when enough pros and players have said it. It cannot be ignored. That in of itself, Is a form of data.
How many percent of players find tron unfun and polarizing. Investigate, then if its true act on it.
So yes to answer your question there is currently no data to prove such a claim. However that does not mean it doesn't have the potential to be true.
The person who made the original claim claimed that there was evidence to prove their claim. All I'm asking for is that evidence that they claimed existed.
but is it healthy if there are enough 45/55 matchups in the top tiers of the game? Enough to push out an entire archtype and even hurt another simultaneously?
"The first, most obvious thing to look for is whether or not any deck has a positive matchup against every other major deck in the field. When your worst matchup is the mirror, chances are you are going to get banned. Even if, in the real world, the deck hasn't won a lot of tournaments, this is a clear sign that it is poised to take over at some point, and we should probably act sooner rather than later."
Does that mean the archtype needs help or does this mean that the number of decks in the top tiers that beat this archtype/s is unhealthy?
Sure. If fair decks aren't in the top-tier, Wizards should give them help. But helping those decks doesn't mean hurting other decks that aren't doing anything wrong.
And people just kept Not playing
Control and instead played more of an aggressive strategy to race these big mana decks?
but they could be doing something wrong couldn't they? To claim they aren't as if it's 100 percent fact without evidence shows bias.
Where is pure control In the top tier? It does decent vs aggro and midrange. Your saying that tron lands have nothing to do with that... Really man?
If someone says man that matchup is tough from my experience and you say prove it, how are you being productive in the argument at all.
I am simply asking that they show how they arrived at that conclusion. I'm not saying it's true, nor am I saying it's not true. I'm simply asking for them to fulfill their burden of proof.
All your doing is refuting everyone unless they have data? Anecdotal means zilch in this world does it? Because I disagree. And when enough pros and players have said it. It cannot be ignored. That in of itself, Is a form of data.
How many percent of players find tron unfun and polarizing. Investigate, then if its true act on it.
So yes to answer your question there is currently no data to prove such a claim. However that does not mean it doesn't have the potential to be true.
The person who made the original claim claimed that there was evidence to prove their claim. All I'm asking for is that evidence that they claimed existed.
EDIT: Are you avoiding a suspension?
but you are saying it's untrue. The bias is in your tone and condescension. It's even in your crappy little write up's you do aswell.
Enough people say something there has to be truth to it.
Other wise what's the point to opinions.
Dredge got banned because it made sideboard games of unfun.
Tron makes fair games unfun and is in 2 forms eldrazi and non eldrazi. Tron lands are pillar in modern. That is unhealthy Imo. just admit you disagree. And that you have no idea. And stop discrediting what many have said because it makes you look like a know it all ignorant prick.
but they could be doing something wrong couldn't they? To claim they aren't as if it's 100 percent fact without evidence shows bias.
What are they doing wrong? They are Tier 1 but so are other decks. They don't win before T4. Wizards just said the format was "healthy" in October, and big mana decks look the same today as they did in October. There's no need to show any additional evidence beyond that. We've looked at a half dozen metagame analyses since October; that was the evidence. We know what "healthy" looks like and we know the format looks like. There's no bias here whatsoever.
but they could be doing something wrong couldn't they? To claim they aren't as if it's 100 percent fact without evidence shows bias.
What are they doing wrong? They are Tier 1 but so are other decks. They don't win before T4. Wizards just said the format was "healthy" in October, and big mana decks look the same today as they did in October. There's no need to show any additional evidence beyond that. We've looked at a half dozen metagame analyses since October; that was the evidence. We know what "healthy" looks like and we know the format looks like. There's no bias here whatsoever.
They are stifling control and hurting slow midrange. That's what they are doing wrong.
Play 100 games vs them with a pure control deck that isn't built to beat big mana and tell me otherwise.
The bias is the definition of healthy. That's where the bias lies. Wizards is managing this game terribly and you stand by them when they say the game is healthy.
Hearthstone developers said the same thing and Thier game is faaaaar from healthy.
They are stifling control and hurting slow midrange. That's what they are doing wrong.
Play 100 games vs them with a pure control deck that isn't built to beat big mana and tell me otherwise.
Control is doing fine. Read any of the metagame analyses done since early October. Plenty of control players are seeing success.
BGx Midrange is not doing fine, but that's not because of big mana. BGx is just worse than GDS right now so it's an inferior choice. BGx is even struggles against GDS itself because of Push. BGx definitely needs a boost but that boost isn't in banning cards that aren't the main problem. Unbans or new cards are needed there, which leads to the very reasonable suggestion of a BBE unban.
Also, I can't emphasize this enough: Wizards called Modern healthy in October 2017. Look at that metagame picture because that's the Modern we're getting. And honestly, it has significant archetype diversity for me to agree it's healthy. It would be one thing if Wizards was painting an unhealthy Modern as healthy, but they aren't. The format looks good. Is it perfect? No. I'd love to see BGx Midrange get some love. But it's very good and you can play decks like blue-based control that were previously not playable.
Ugh, I'm a little grossed out by how much Tron we're seeing on camera today. We definitely saw more traditional interactive and fun decks yesterday.
I'm curious to see what this top 8 will look like and see if it's the predictions GK and Sheridan made, or if we see a bunch of linear combo decks dominate the top lists.
They are stifling control and hurting slow midrange. That's what they are doing wrong.
Play 100 games vs them with a pure control deck that isn't built to beat big mana and tell me otherwise.
Control is doing fine. Read any of the metagame analyses done since early October. Plenty of control players are seeing success.
BGx Midrange is not doing fine, but that's not because of big mana. BGx is just worse than GDS right now so it's an inferior choice. BGx is even struggles against GDS itself because of Push. BGx definitely needs a boost but that boost isn't in banning cards that aren't the main problem. Unbans or new cards are needed there, which leads to the very reasonable suggestion of a BBE unban.
Also, I can't emphasize this enough: Wizards called Modern healthy in October 2017. Look at that metagame picture because that's the Modern we're getting. And honestly, it has significant archetype diversity for me to agree it's healthy. It would be one thing if Wizards was painting an unhealthy Modern as healthy, but they aren't. The format looks good. Is it perfect? No. I'd love to see BGx Midrange get some love. But it's very good and you can play decks like blue-based control that were previously not playable.
wrong! Abzan just crushed death shadow on camera as the commenters admitted its a good matchup. Which in my experience it is aswell.
Which leaves us to why death shadow is preferred.... Better Big mana matchup what a suprise..
Which shows that big mana is affecting deck decisions. And stifling/warping certain decks and strategies.
Wonder what Gregory orange has to say about how tron affects our format?
Ugh, I'm a little grossed out by how much Tron we're seeing on camera today. We definitely saw more traditional interactive and fun decks yesterday.
I'm curious to see what this top 8 will look like and see if it's the predictions GK and Sheridan made, or if we see a bunch of linear combo decks dominate the top lists.
won't be suprised if its linear sprinkled with shadow honestly.
Who knows maybe abzan or uwr will get lucky and dodge tron/big mana and make it to the top! how fun!
I actually think that the printing of new black cards like Fatal Push and Collective Bruality could have made Tron too good for the format, since those cards are aggro/combo stoppers on their own, and they don't sacrifice nothing to play them as efficiently as possible. The basically fix Trons bad matchups, while being super easy to play and having almost free wins against midrange. I think slowly, Tron has become the boogeyman of the format again, suplanting Grixis Shadow.
All in all, Tron is not getting banend in the near future, and Modern STILL looks pretty healthy diversity-wise. Happy to see all those control/midrange players doing well in the GP. Also happy to see that the format actually could handle Death's Shadow, and it's looking promisingly self-regulating.
I actually think that the printing of new black cards like Fatal Push and Collective Bruality could have made Tron too good for the format, since those cards are aggro/combo stoppers on their own, and they don't sacrifice nothing to play them as efficiently as possible. The basically fix Trons bad matchups, while being super easy to play and having almost free wins against midrange. I think slowly, Tron has become the boogeyman of the format again, suplanting Grixis Shadow.
All in all, Tron is not getting banend in the near future, and Modern STILL looks pretty healthy diversity-wise. Happy to see all those control/midrange players doing well in the GP. Also happy to see that the format actually could handle Death's Shadow, and it's looking promisingly self-regulating.
That's really jumping the gun
If that were so true, why was Tron so quiet after those releases?
Tron is just like affinity and dredge, it ebbs and flows and takes turn being a boogeyman.
Glad Jeskai is in the top 8---but this top 8 is looking really linear. It's always heartbreaking when the pro's show you that being linear is the way to go in modern.
tron x 3
Scapeshift x 2
Dredge
Living End
Jeskai breach(not control)
It seems like a terrible top8
Yup, that is awful. It's interesting that the local and regional events always look healthier than the Opens (still a bit diverse) and the GP (this one is wretched). Of course, the PT tends to expose the cracks even more, as we have said before. Note that this GP T8 does not reflect the same "healthy" picture we saw in October 2017 when Wizards called Modern healthy. This is significantly less diverse and I expect Wizards isn't thrilled.
I expect we still see no changes going into the PT. We have almost 8 months of diverse Modern and now a big bump in the road, which is generally not enough to compel action. But after the PT, if it looks anything like this, we'll see some major unbans and/or bans.
The only redeeming element I've seen so far is Jeskai Breach's performance, taking 1st going into the T8. But he can't make it into the T8 any further than that, so I dunno.
What bans or unbans would a repeat like this prompt from WOTC and why?
Pretty much all of the midrange and control cards can come off the banned list since big mana just laughs at these archetypes anyway: Stoneforge Mystic, Bloodbraid Elf, Jace, Punishing Fire
Even Birthing Pod doesn't seem particularly good in this current meta
Birthing POD is still off the table for all of time.
Obviously all those unbans can't happen at once.
I think unbanning Jace before SFM would be a gigantic mistake, at least see how much SFM improves blue decks first.
Grixis Death Shadow would most likely play Jace, you can't just unban him.
Punishing fire is a no go either, I've noticed you've suggested that multiple times and you've already had explained why that would be bad from multiple people in the past
What bans or unbans would a repeat like this prompt from WOTC and why?
BBE seems laughably safe at this point. It looks like BB, AV, and Sword in this metagame, and that was before this GP's results. SFM also looks more likely but I think Wizards might be pathologically afraid of that card.
I don't know about specific bans though. Expedition Map makes Tron less consistent? But that's not really the issue because you still have decks like Valakut and Dredge and Storm running around. I can't think of any clear ban I just think Wizards' track record is always for banning before unbanning.
The funny thing is that we all know what would fix these issues: better answers! Everyone on Wizards' design/development team should have been removed for their failures over the last few years. But Wizards has some misguided philosophy about threats and answers in Standard which has created this problem in Modern.
Well I'm rooting for the Jeskai Breach deck, as it is the most interactive out of the bunch. I hope it crushes every tron deck on the way to winning
I am right there with you hoping that Jeskai curbstomps Tron....Tron is one of my favorite decks to play, and if it gets banned for the sins of those BLASTED BFZ abominations, I'm gonna lose my voice screaming at Wizards.
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Birthing POD is still off the table for all of time.
Obviously all those unbans can't happen at once.
I think unbanning Jace before SFM would be a gigantic mistake, at least see how much SFM improves blue decks first.
Grixis Death Shadow would most likely play Jace, you can't just unban him.
Punishing fire is a no go either, I've noticed you've suggested that multiple times and you've already had explained why that would be bad from multiple people in the past
I can't imagine Birthing Pod decks doing very well against Tron/Scapeshift. How do you think its unbanning would warp the meta?
You're probably right about Punishing Fire though: it would slot right into Tron decks and cement RG as the best color combination for that archetype.
The other 3: Jace, BBE, Stoneforge should most definitely come off. I don't think Grixis Shadow would play Jace - that deck's curve stops at 3
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At what point did I admit to the matchups being terrible? I have my own opinions, but I am not going to state them without some evidence. Thus, I have said nothing about that matchup.
I am simply asking that they show how they arrived at that conclusion. I'm not saying it's true, nor am I saying it's not true. I'm simply asking for them to fulfill their burden of proof.
Simply because " enough pros" said something is true, or, that enough players have said it, does not make it true.
The person who made the original claim claimed that there was evidence to prove their claim. All I'm asking for is that evidence that they claimed existed.
EDIT: Are you avoiding a suspension?
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
Where is pure control In the top tier? It does decent vs aggro and midrange. Your saying that tron lands have nothing to do with that... Really man?
Enough people say something there has to be truth to it.
Other wise what's the point to opinions.
Dredge got banned because it made sideboard games of unfun.
Tron makes fair games unfun and is in 2 forms eldrazi and non eldrazi. Tron lands are pillar in modern. That is unhealthy Imo. just admit you disagree. And that you have no idea. And stop discrediting what many have said because it makes you look like a know it all ignorant prick.
What are they doing wrong? They are Tier 1 but so are other decks. They don't win before T4. Wizards just said the format was "healthy" in October, and big mana decks look the same today as they did in October. There's no need to show any additional evidence beyond that. We've looked at a half dozen metagame analyses since October; that was the evidence. We know what "healthy" looks like and we know the format looks like. There's no bias here whatsoever.
They are stifling control and hurting slow midrange. That's what they are doing wrong.
Play 100 games vs them with a pure control deck that isn't built to beat big mana and tell me otherwise.
The bias is the definition of healthy. That's where the bias lies. Wizards is managing this game terribly and you stand by them when they say the game is healthy.
Hearthstone developers said the same thing and Thier game is faaaaar from healthy.
Control is doing fine. Read any of the metagame analyses done since early October. Plenty of control players are seeing success.
BGx Midrange is not doing fine, but that's not because of big mana. BGx is just worse than GDS right now so it's an inferior choice. BGx is even struggles against GDS itself because of Push. BGx definitely needs a boost but that boost isn't in banning cards that aren't the main problem. Unbans or new cards are needed there, which leads to the very reasonable suggestion of a BBE unban.
Also, I can't emphasize this enough: Wizards called Modern healthy in October 2017. Look at that metagame picture because that's the Modern we're getting. And honestly, it has significant archetype diversity for me to agree it's healthy. It would be one thing if Wizards was painting an unhealthy Modern as healthy, but they aren't. The format looks good. Is it perfect? No. I'd love to see BGx Midrange get some love. But it's very good and you can play decks like blue-based control that were previously not playable.
I'm curious to see what this top 8 will look like and see if it's the predictions GK and Sheridan made, or if we see a bunch of linear combo decks dominate the top lists.
Which leaves us to why death shadow is preferred.... Better Big mana matchup what a suprise..
Which shows that big mana is affecting deck decisions. And stifling/warping certain decks and strategies.
Wonder what Gregory orange has to say about how tron affects our format?
Who knows maybe abzan or uwr will get lucky and dodge tron/big mana and make it to the top! how fun!
They aren't doing much that's better.
Abzan is a brutal matchup for the archetype, but Jund and BG Rock really have to grind hard for those wins.
BBE is the unban that needs to happen in Feb, otherwise it's an archetype left for dead.
What are the worst matchups for Tron? Humans, storm, burn, ad nauseam, and maybe dredge? Merfolk?
All in all, Tron is not getting banend in the near future, and Modern STILL looks pretty healthy diversity-wise. Happy to see all those control/midrange players doing well in the GP. Also happy to see that the format actually could handle Death's Shadow, and it's looking promisingly self-regulating.
That's really jumping the gun
If that were so true, why was Tron so quiet after those releases?
Tron is just like affinity and dredge, it ebbs and flows and takes turn being a boogeyman.
Glad Jeskai is in the top 8---but this top 8 is looking really linear. It's always heartbreaking when the pro's show you that being linear is the way to go in modern.
Cool, so so no interactive deck made top 8. I've supremely lost interest in watching it.
This is very much what I was worried about.
EDIT: Ok, jeskai breech interacts a lot. I'm just a little disgruntled that this is basically an all combo top 8
This setting is perfect for Storm, which I still feel is in danger of being banned.
We'll see though, if there's no copies of Storm in the top 8 of the pro-tour than this assertion won't happen.
I turned off twitch, it's not worth it to see what deck won, I'll just read up on what deck took 1st place
Yup, that is awful. It's interesting that the local and regional events always look healthier than the Opens (still a bit diverse) and the GP (this one is wretched). Of course, the PT tends to expose the cracks even more, as we have said before. Note that this GP T8 does not reflect the same "healthy" picture we saw in October 2017 when Wizards called Modern healthy. This is significantly less diverse and I expect Wizards isn't thrilled.
I expect we still see no changes going into the PT. We have almost 8 months of diverse Modern and now a big bump in the road, which is generally not enough to compel action. But after the PT, if it looks anything like this, we'll see some major unbans and/or bans.
The only redeeming element I've seen so far is Jeskai Breach's performance, taking 1st going into the T8. But he can't make it into the T8 any further than that, so I dunno.
Pretty much all of the midrange and control cards can come off the banned list since big mana just laughs at these archetypes anyway: Stoneforge Mystic, Bloodbraid Elf, Jace, Punishing Fire
Even Birthing Pod doesn't seem particularly good in this current meta
Obviously all those unbans can't happen at once.
I think unbanning Jace before SFM would be a gigantic mistake, at least see how much SFM improves blue decks first.
Grixis Death Shadow would most likely play Jace, you can't just unban him.
Punishing fire is a no go either, I've noticed you've suggested that multiple times and you've already had explained why that would be bad from multiple people in the past
BBE seems laughably safe at this point. It looks like BB, AV, and Sword in this metagame, and that was before this GP's results. SFM also looks more likely but I think Wizards might be pathologically afraid of that card.
I don't know about specific bans though. Expedition Map makes Tron less consistent? But that's not really the issue because you still have decks like Valakut and Dredge and Storm running around. I can't think of any clear ban I just think Wizards' track record is always for banning before unbanning.
The funny thing is that we all know what would fix these issues: better answers! Everyone on Wizards' design/development team should have been removed for their failures over the last few years. But Wizards has some misguided philosophy about threats and answers in Standard which has created this problem in Modern.
I am right there with you hoping that Jeskai curbstomps Tron....Tron is one of my favorite decks to play, and if it gets banned for the sins of those BLASTED BFZ abominations, I'm gonna lose my voice screaming at Wizards.
I can't imagine Birthing Pod decks doing very well against Tron/Scapeshift. How do you think its unbanning would warp the meta?
You're probably right about Punishing Fire though: it would slot right into Tron decks and cement RG as the best color combination for that archetype.
The other 3: Jace, BBE, Stoneforge should most definitely come off. I don't think Grixis Shadow would play Jace - that deck's curve stops at 3