I think Delay needs to be in the discussion more. It's usually a hard counter for 1U in Modern. I'm lost as to why nobody plays it. I do in a few decks and it works wonders.
I think Delay needs to be in the discussion more. It's usually a hard counter for 1U in Modern. I'm lost as to why nobody plays it. I do in a few decks and it works wonders.
Control doesn't really want it, because slowing a spell down for 3 turns isn't great when control takes longer than that to win anyways, especially is you have to deal with your opponents other spells. Combo might want it, but generally speaking they probably prefer Spell Pierce or Dispel since they cost only U, meaning that they can go off with countermagic up a turn sooner. Tempo may play it, but they also aren't quite fast enough and the cantrip on Remand is a huge reason to prioritize it over Delay.
Basically the decks that want the effect have access to other counters that, while narrower, are either cheaper or come with a tack-on effect they actually care about.
What about Censor? This card could seems decent enough to see play in a right deck.
I've currently ranked it lower than Countervailing Winds and much lower than Supreme Will (all 3 cards can either counter spells or dig for better cards). I've ranked Censor much lower because it barely counters anything. Putting it into perspective for my list, Countervailing Winds didn't even Top 10 (Supreme Will counters enough and digs much better, IMO).
I think the issue with determining a best counterspell revolves around the archetype the counterspell is being played in and the metagame in which said archetype is played.
For example, Stubborn Denial is an efficient answer to most removal in low-curve tempo decks, but, while it is fantastic in decks that can consistently hit that Ferocious condition, it loses steam the longer the game goes on.
Pact of Negation is great for protecting a combo (or, in addition to Hive Mind, enabling a combo), but other than that it is bad as control or even a tempo spell.
Cryptic Command is probably the most universal, but unfortunately its restrictive cost is a nightmare.
Trickbind, Disallow, and other "counter-target activated/triggered ability" spells are basically reserved only for Grapeshot Storm trigger (which you always counter first before countering any of the storm copies if possible) and anything of that sort.
Remand would be best in tempo/combo decks hoping to buy an extra turn.
I really could go on and on, but the main gist is still the same as before: context is important.
Putting Spell Queller in my sample list was my mistake since yes, it is not a counterspell. I am not considering Chalice of the Void to be a counterspell. I am just considering instants with the text - or with a variant of the text - "counter target spell".
What data are you going by? If you have a source, could you send it to me?
I feel that you are right about Stubborn Denial being in the top 3, but I am writing this just based on playing against it.
Best counterspells in Modern?
Here's the top five of ones I'd even consider playing in the format right now; Countersquall: A better Negate. Chalice of the Void: Don't tell me it isn't a counter spell. Cryptic Command: The versatile catchall. Ceremonious Rejection: Is Etron still great? Is Affinity still a deck? Remand: For the tempo player.
Spell Pierce and Dispel are the top 2. No question. They may not be the most common, but they are by and large the most mana efficient and see play in most sideboards. Most of their variations are high in play as well. Cryptic Command definitely ranks among the most powerful, which I think is a very different definition than the term "Best"
Mindbreak Trap is a garbage card. If someone boards that in against me playing storm, then I'm happy
I'm very curious about this card vs. Storm. Is it too easy to keep going and Grapeshot again after the first and it's copies have been countered? Would most Storm players play around that or just play around it casually? I was wondering because I actually sided one for the first time in quite a while in the SB of UW Control vs. Storm. It didn't come up, but luckily I was able to stave him off in 2. But I was curious. Because if it's too easy to just keep going with mana and then do another Grapeshot, then there's really no point.
(I could just test myself and see, lol.)
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Mindbreak Trap is a garbage card. If someone boards that in against me playing storm, then I'm happy
I'm very curious about this card vs. Storm. Is it too easy to keep going and Grapeshot again after the first and it's copies have been countered? Would most Storm players play around that or just play around it casually? I was wondering because I actually sided one for the first time in quite a while in the SB of UW Control vs. Storm. It didn't come up, but luckily I was able to stave him off in 2. But I was curious. Because if it's too easy to just keep going with mana and then do another Grapeshot, then there's really no point.
(I could just test myself and see, lol.)
I've always thought the same thing, unfortunately I believe the issue relies on just how restrictive it is vs Grafdiggers Cage pro-actively, and Leyline. All the while not being as efficient re-actively compared to Nihil Spellbomb and Thoughtseize.
Mindbreak Trap is a garbage card. If someone boards that in against me playing storm, then I'm happy
I'm very curious about this card vs. Storm. Is it too easy to keep going and Grapeshot again after the first and it's copies have been countered? Would most Storm players play around that or just play around it casually? I was wondering because I actually sided one for the first time in quite a while in the SB of UW Control vs. Storm. It didn't come up, but luckily I was able to stave him off in 2. But I was curious. Because if it's too easy to just keep going with mana and then do another Grapeshot, then there's really no point.
(I could just test myself and see, lol.)
There are instances when Mindbreak Trap can be good, especially if the storm player doesnt know its coming. If they know its coming, its very easy to play around. Besides just countering it, theres other ways. They can always remand their own spell. If the storm player isnt super restricted on mana or draw cards, they can just continue their turn and draw more cards and just cast another Grapeshot. Most of the time, you want to counter Past In Flames or something before they begin their huge storm count.
It was almost trivially easy to nail someone with two full-Storm Grapeshots back before the Gitaxian Probe ban (i.e. Mindbreak Trap only blocks one and its caster dies to the other). I suspect it's harder nowadays, but it's still easy to Storm for lethal and then cast two Grapeshots against slow enough decks. And then there's always the first throwaway Empty the Warrens.
I can't get enough of Disrupting Shoal!
In the right build this counter is totally devastating and always feels totally out of left field.
Feels like cheating and late game its a great use of extra mana.
^^
It is very mana-inefficient even compared to something like Condescend (which doesn't see much play).
Also it is plain worse than 3-mana counterspells like Counterflux and Disallow.
^^
It is very mana-inefficient even compared to something like Condescend (which doesn't see much play).
Also it is plain worse than 3-mana counterspells like Counterflux and Disallow.
All due respect, but I'm going to disagree. For every X you spend, you're getting a 200% value. With Condescend, which I also plan to use in the American Draw-Go deck I'm developing, the U is essentially paying for the Scry 2 and the X is paying for the counter; which is very efficient, mind, but only in that you're getting even value for money. Counterflux is a problem because it requires a very specific mana investment and offers no flexibility, plus its real value is in its Overload cost; useful against Storm decks, but I don't believe those see much play in Modern nowadays. I didn't know about Disallow, that's a great card; my only hesitation with it is that for it to make sense, you either have to be splashing Blue for counter or playing Mono-U Permission.
Then again, I'm a stubborn old-school Draw-Go player, so my perspective is probably warped.
PS: In your Mono-U Colossus deck, have you considered Jester's Cap for general hate?
"Storm" is actually a Tier 1 deck at the moment so it is pretty relevant.
The "Scry 2" of Condescend is much better than the damge you can do with Mindswipe, control decks care about hitting land drops and finding answers more than some incidental damage.
Mindswipe begins as a 3-mana Force Spike, thats why I've compared it to the 3-mana (unconditional) counterspells.
It is just too expensive to be Modern playable especially when you already have Cryptic Command at 4-mana and Logic Knot as a flexible option.
About Jester's Cap, not really as it is pretty slow as a way to deal with combo decks.
Probably Chalice of the Void, although I'll admit that that's kind of a lame answer.
Control doesn't really want it, because slowing a spell down for 3 turns isn't great when control takes longer than that to win anyways, especially is you have to deal with your opponents other spells. Combo might want it, but generally speaking they probably prefer Spell Pierce or Dispel since they cost only U, meaning that they can go off with countermagic up a turn sooner. Tempo may play it, but they also aren't quite fast enough and the cantrip on Remand is a huge reason to prioritize it over Delay.
Basically the decks that want the effect have access to other counters that, while narrower, are either cheaper or come with a tack-on effect they actually care about.
I've currently ranked it lower than Countervailing Winds and much lower than Supreme Will (all 3 cards can either counter spells or dig for better cards). I've ranked Censor much lower because it barely counters anything. Putting it into perspective for my list, Countervailing Winds didn't even Top 10 (Supreme Will counters enough and digs much better, IMO).
For example, Stubborn Denial is an efficient answer to most removal in low-curve tempo decks, but, while it is fantastic in decks that can consistently hit that Ferocious condition, it loses steam the longer the game goes on.
Pact of Negation is great for protecting a combo (or, in addition to Hive Mind, enabling a combo), but other than that it is bad as control or even a tempo spell.
Cryptic Command is probably the most universal, but unfortunately its restrictive cost is a nightmare.
Creature-based "counterspells" like Spell Queller, Spellstutter Sprite, Mausoleum Wanderer, Judge's Familiar, Cursecatcher, etc. are good in the sense that their value is compounded by being attached to a body, but outside of tribal shenanigans, they don't just hold up well on their own.
Trickbind, Disallow, and other "counter-target activated/triggered ability" spells are basically reserved only for Grapeshot Storm trigger (which you always counter first before countering any of the storm copies if possible) and anything of that sort.
Remand would be best in tempo/combo decks hoping to buy an extra turn.
I really could go on and on, but the main gist is still the same as before: context is important.
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I feel that you are right about Stubborn Denial being in the top 3, but I am writing this just based on playing against it.
In case I need to clarify, I meant for my list to just be an example. I may consider Stubborn Denial to be the best counterspell in modern.
2 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Thoughtseize
4 Snapcaster Mage
5 Vendillion Clique
6 IoK
7 Spell Queller
8 Vines of Vastwood
9 Rattle Chains
10 Witchbane Orb
Pretty sure this is the correct list of top modern counterspells.
I'm dang close to not seeing Vines of Vastwood or Rattlechains anymore (and considering that I visit www.tcdecks.net and MTGO League results daily, that's saying something).
Here's the top five of ones I'd even consider playing in the format right now;
Countersquall: A better Negate.
Chalice of the Void: Don't tell me it isn't a counter spell.
Cryptic Command: The versatile catchall.
Ceremonious Rejection: Is Etron still great? Is Affinity still a deck?
Remand: For the tempo player.
Honorable Mentions:
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
I'm very curious about this card vs. Storm. Is it too easy to keep going and Grapeshot again after the first and it's copies have been countered? Would most Storm players play around that or just play around it casually? I was wondering because I actually sided one for the first time in quite a while in the SB of UW Control vs. Storm. It didn't come up, but luckily I was able to stave him off in 2. But I was curious. Because if it's too easy to just keep going with mana and then do another Grapeshot, then there's really no point.
(I could just test myself and see, lol.)
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Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I've always thought the same thing, unfortunately I believe the issue relies on just how restrictive it is vs Grafdiggers Cage pro-actively, and Leyline. All the while not being as efficient re-actively compared to Nihil Spellbomb and Thoughtseize.
There are instances when Mindbreak Trap can be good, especially if the storm player doesnt know its coming. If they know its coming, its very easy to play around. Besides just countering it, theres other ways. They can always remand their own spell. If the storm player isnt super restricted on mana or draw cards, they can just continue their turn and draw more cards and just cast another Grapeshot. Most of the time, you want to counter Past In Flames or something before they begin their huge storm count.
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
In the right build this counter is totally devastating and always feels totally out of left field.
Feels like cheating and late game its a great use of extra mana.
It is very mana-inefficient even compared to something like Condescend (which doesn't see much play).
Also it is plain worse than 3-mana counterspells like Counterflux and Disallow.
All due respect, but I'm going to disagree. For every X you spend, you're getting a 200% value. With Condescend, which I also plan to use in the American Draw-Go deck I'm developing, the U is essentially paying for the Scry 2 and the X is paying for the counter; which is very efficient, mind, but only in that you're getting even value for money. Counterflux is a problem because it requires a very specific mana investment and offers no flexibility, plus its real value is in its Overload cost; useful against Storm decks, but I don't believe those see much play in Modern nowadays. I didn't know about Disallow, that's a great card; my only hesitation with it is that for it to make sense, you either have to be splashing Blue for counter or playing Mono-U Permission.
Then again, I'm a stubborn old-school Draw-Go player, so my perspective is probably warped.
PS: In your Mono-U Colossus deck, have you considered Jester's Cap for general hate?
The "Scry 2" of Condescend is much better than the damge you can do with Mindswipe, control decks care about hitting land drops and finding answers more than some incidental damage.
Mindswipe begins as a 3-mana Force Spike, thats why I've compared it to the 3-mana (unconditional) counterspells.
It is just too expensive to be Modern playable especially when you already have Cryptic Command at 4-mana and Logic Knot as a flexible option.
About Jester's Cap, not really as it is pretty slow as a way to deal with combo decks.