After watching the Pro Tour having 6 Burn decks in the top 8 and probably 12 in the top 16, and after watching a million mono red mirrors that most of them are decided based on the die and mulligans, I have to say if PT was on Modern atm, we would surely be watching much more interesting games.
I am so happy that my prediction about Grixis Shadow is finally right. The deck is just one of the best decks atm, and anyone who thinks it's the best deck by far is clearly wrong.
Preach it! Let's just hope that stays true when the Modern PT rolls around.
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WoTC, thank you for finally announcing the Modern format, an eternal format where everyone can participate.
Not sure if you know this, but when the term "shake up ban" is used, it's used almost exclusively to refer to the situation you just described. To answer your question, I can't speak for everyone but I sure as heck don't want any deck I play hit just to make things "more interesting" nor would I wish that onto other people. If the deck I'm playing is unhealthy for the meta (too much meta presence, T4 rule violator, etc.) fine, but if I wanted top decks to get nerfed just for the sake of artificially changing the meta to make things interesting I'd still be playing Yu-Gi-Oh.
Re read what I wrote I was suggesting shake up unbans. To touch on what you said though bans are and integral part of modern and have been since it's inception. It really doesn't matter if people don't like their decks being banned this is modern and it is what happens. Bannings, new cards and meta shift all can make someone's deck unplayable and they are gone a have to live with that. It's also not like people don't know that banning are a huge part of modern, just look at what dominates modern discussions. Players don't have a right to play a certian deck and if your deck gets banned or becomes unplayable well too bad so sad
It's very rare that a new card or an unban will make a deck unplayable. Plenty of people play t3 decks and have fun doing so. Bans however do make decks unplayable and that's why most people prefer to not see them.
I understand why people don't like bans. my point is modern is a format centered around bans. you wouldn't complain about swimming because it makes your wet. If you don't like bans modern isn't the format for you
You need water to swim you don't need bans to play modern. Horrible analogy imo. Modern isn't centered around bans by any means, nor would wotc want any format to be centered around bans. I'm sorry I just don't agree with that at all.
"if you dont like bans modern isnt for you" Is actually true though.
As long as new cards are printed, and answers remain the way they are. Bans will always be a possibility.
Re read what I wrote I was suggesting shake up unbans. To touch on what you said though bans are and integral part of modern and have been since it's inception. It really doesn't matter if people don't like their decks being banned this is modern and it is what happens. Bannings, new cards and meta shift all can make someone's deck unplayable and they are gone a have to live with that. It's also not like people don't know that banning are a huge part of modern, just look at what dominates modern discussions. Players don't have a right to play a certian deck and if your deck gets banned or becomes unplayable well too bad so sad
It's very rare that a new card or an unban will make a deck unplayable. Plenty of people play t3 decks and have fun doing so. Bans however do make decks unplayable and that's why most people prefer to not see them.
I understand why people don't like bans. my point is modern is a format centered around bans. you wouldn't complain about swimming because it makes your wet. If you don't like bans modern isn't the format for you
You need water to swim you don't need bans to play modern. Horrible analogy imo. Modern isn't centered around bans by any means, nor would wotc want any format to be centered around bans. I'm sorry I just don't agree with that at all.
"if you dont like bans modern isnt for you" Is actually true though.
As long as new cards are printed, and answers remain the way they are. Bans will always be a possibility.
So you like bans? Possibility yes, centered around, no. No format is centered around bans I guarantee that. Bans are possible in every format but in no way should they be thought of as a purpose of the format.
Fatal Push wasn't designed "for" modern, it like any other card that is good in modern was designed for standard and just happens to shine in Modern.
This is wrong. Fatal Push was purposefully designed for non-rotating formats like Modern.
A lot of people hear that WOTC doesn't test new sets/cards for anything other than limited and standard and conflate that with not designing for other formats. The two aren't the same. They design a card or two for other formats very often, they simply don't test them in those formats.
Fatal Push wasn't designed "for" modern, it like any other card that is good in modern was designed for standard and just happens to shine in Modern.
This is wrong. Fatal Push was purposefully designed for non-rotating formats like Modern.
A lot of people hear that WOTC doesn't test new sets/cards for anything other than limited and standard and conflate that with not designing for other formats. The two aren't the same. They design a card or two for other formats very often, they simply don't test them in those formats.
no it wasn't they said that when the designed it they understood that it would be great in non-rotating formats. It like any other card had to be balanced for Standard power levels, did they recognize that revolt as a mechanic would be better in Modern. If a card isn't balanced for standard it simply will not see print, Fatal Push is a great example of WotC taking advantage of a situation once they designed Revolt they understood what could be done with it and took advantage of the situation but they didn't even begin designing the set with the goal of making Modern playable cards they just took advantage of the situation that the Standard design afforded them. Its really to bad that the Revolt mechanic name isn't as vanilla as Prowess, I doubt it will make evergreen status so it will probably be 5-6 years before they get back to it.
Fatal Push wasn't designed "for" modern, it like any other card that is good in modern was designed for standard and just happens to shine in Modern.
This is wrong. Fatal Push was purposefully designed for non-rotating formats like Modern.
A lot of people hear that WOTC doesn't test new sets/cards for anything other than limited and standard and conflate that with not designing for other formats. The two aren't the same. They design a card or two for other formats very often, they simply don't test them in those formats.
no it wasn't they said that when the designed it they understood that it would be great in non-rotating formats. It like any other card had to be balanced for Standard power levels, did they recognize that revolt as a mechanic would be better in Modern. If a card isn't balanced for standard it simply will not see print, Fatal Push is a great example of WotC taking advantage of a situation once they designed Revolt they understood what could be done with it and took advantage of the situation but they didn't even begin designing the set with the goal of making Modern playable cards they just took advantage of the situation that the Standard design afforded them. Its really to bad that the Revolt mechanic name isn't as vanilla as Prowess, I doubt it will make evergreen status so it will probably be 5-6 years before they get back to it.
I suppose I can agree that it's a tad nuanced, but they did design the card for other formats. Revolt as a mechanic was designed for Standard/Limited, but in terms of that particular card and whether it was instant/sorcery, the mana cost, and the rest of the text box, it was all created with more than limited and standard in mind.
When RnD makes cards specifically for Modern, we get stuff that totally warps the format like Deathrite Shaman and Fatal Push. I'd rather them just focus on making good cards rather than making cards for us because it's clear, they barely understand their own game.
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WoTC, thank you for finally announcing the Modern format, an eternal format where everyone can participate.
Fatal Push wasn't designed "for" modern, it like any other card that is good in modern was designed for standard and just happens to shine in Modern.
This is wrong. Fatal Push was purposefully designed for non-rotating formats like Modern.
A lot of people hear that WOTC doesn't test new sets/cards for anything other than limited and standard and conflate that with not designing for other formats. The two aren't the same. They design a card or two for other formats very often, they simply don't test them in those formats.
no it wasn't they said that when the designed it they understood that it would be great in non-rotating formats. It like any other card had to be balanced for Standard power levels, did they recognize that revolt as a mechanic would be better in Modern. If a card isn't balanced for standard it simply will not see print, Fatal Push is a great example of WotC taking advantage of a situation once they designed Revolt they understood what could be done with it and took advantage of the situation but they didn't even begin designing the set with the goal of making Modern playable cards they just took advantage of the situation that the Standard design afforded them. Its really to bad that the Revolt mechanic name isn't as vanilla as Prowess, I doubt it will make evergreen status so it will probably be 5-6 years before they get back to it.
I suppose I can agree that it's a tad nuanced, but they did design the card for other formats. Revolt as a mechanic was designed for Standard/Limited, but in terms of that particular card and whether it was instant/sorcery, the mana cost, and the rest of the text box, it was all created with more than limited and standard in mind.
And really that is my point, they set out to develop a Standard set, they balanced the mechanic to function in a safe fun way for standard and realized after the fact "yeah we can do things with this that will be great in older formats" but it wasn't something they had in mind from day one and it never will be. Sometimes its super easy for them to know that they can make pushed cards for older formats because the mechanic is established as great in older formats like Delve, they knew from Tombstalker's history that Delve is great in those formats so Tas, Angler, TC, DDT they had to know at as soon as they settled on that being a set in which Delve would be the showcase mechanic that it would make older format staples/potentially broken cards, but like with TC Standard design always takes the lead in terms of concerns because WotC isn't stupid they had to understand that this was functionally a AR at sorcery speed in Modern/Legacy/Vintage but like with the fore knowledge of the potential risk of printing 3,4,5cc Eldrazi they didn't care. Its easy to say look at Fatal Push because its a well balanced card but they are equally if not more likely to print things that they know will be great in Modern to the point of being broken and potentially demanding a ban to maintain meta-game health.
The real sad part about Revolt is that even if they choose to make it a evergreen mechanic it would likely only ever be printed on BGand W cards kind of how Prowess was a RUand W mechanic and once moved to evergreen status remained solidly in those colors similar to Trample, Vigilance, etc... it is likely solidly locked into those color identity, same thing with Delve in BUG etc....
Whats your source for it was created to Deal with counter-top? http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/top-decks/it-also-speaks-itself-2012-09-05 This is the only article I could find talking about it and the only mention of any specific card that it was great to Hate on was Delver of Secrets but again this card was clearly designed just to be a super flexible removal for anything 3 or less without protection from BG or Hexproof. WotC designs for Standard first and foremost always.
pretty sure the BGx decks are running green creatures, Amulet Titan and Boggles also. I wish we could see the complete brackets and not just the top 8 pairing as I would like see what decks beat out BGx mid-range, did they fall to some combo deck or was it GDS or some kind of Eldrazi or Tron deck that knocked them out.
Also interesting that again the GDS deck that performed to a high finish was a much more streamlined aggro build with its grinder cards in the SB and double Deprive in the main
pretty sure the BGx decks are running green creatures, Amulet Titan and Boggles also. I wish we could see the complete brackets and not just the top 8 pairing as I would like see what decks beat out BGx mid-range, did they fall to some combo deck or was it GDS or some kind of Eldrazi or Tron deck that knocked them out.
Also interesting that again the GDS deck that performed to a high finish was a much more streamlined aggro build with its grinder cards in the SB and double Deprive in the main
To clarify I'm talking about decks like Abzan company, knightfall and elves.
Whats your source for it was created to Deal with counter-top? http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/top-decks/it-also-speaks-itself-2012-09-05 This is the only article I could find talking about it and the only mention of any specific card that it was great to Hate on was Delver of Secrets but again this card was clearly designed just to be a super flexible removal for anything 3 or less without protection from BG or Hexproof. WotC designs for Standard first and foremost always.
Lauer: Modern is a format created by players, not developers. So we tend to be hands off, although we try to avoid adding turn-three kills. With Legacy, we sometimes design "answer cards" such as Abrupt Decay being an answer to Counterbalance. When appropriate, we might do that with Modern. But we haven't had to yet.
Note this was from late 2012, hence the "we haven't had to [design "answer cards" for Modern] yet" (which is likely no longer true).
pretty sure the BGx decks are running green creatures, Amulet Titan and Boggles also. I wish we could see the complete brackets and not just the top 8 pairing as I would like see what decks beat out BGx mid-range, did they fall to some combo deck or was it GDS or some kind of Eldrazi or Tron deck that knocked them out.
Also interesting that again the GDS deck that performed to a high finish was a much more streamlined aggro build with its grinder cards in the SB and double Deprive in the main
To clarify I'm talking about decks like Abzan company, knightfall and elves.
Elves at 26, some Company decks in the 20's. I'm still convinced that CoCo decks while good are just to random going to just have those games where you hit bird, bird and your looking at Eldrazi monsters, plus quite a few Grafdiggers Cages in the SB's of decks.
pretty sure the BGx decks are running green creatures, Amulet Titan and Boggles also. I wish we could see the complete brackets and not just the top 8 pairing as I would like see what decks beat out BGx mid-range, did they fall to some combo deck or was it GDS or some kind of Eldrazi or Tron deck that knocked them out.
Also interesting that again the GDS deck that performed to a high finish was a much more streamlined aggro build with its grinder cards in the SB and double Deprive in the main
To clarify I'm talking about decks like Abzan company, knightfall and elves.
Elves at 26, some Company decks in the 20's. I'm still convinced that CoCo decks while good are just to random going to just have those games where you hit bird, bird and your looking at Eldrazi monsters, plus quite a few Grafdiggers Cages in the SB's of decks.
Coco is horrible to play online. That matters a lot.
CoCo decks are miserable to play online since you can't shortcut any infinite loops. Want to make an obscene amount of mana for a huge ballista? have fun tapping and untapping. Infinite life? Infinite Damage? Scry through your deck? It is all the same problem. I used to play a ton of rally online (both standard and in modern) and it was pretty annoying trying to execute the combo and manage the clock.
pretty sure the BGx decks are running green creatures, Amulet Titan and Boggles also. I wish we could see the complete brackets and not just the top 8 pairing as I would like see what decks beat out BGx mid-range, did they fall to some combo deck or was it GDS or some kind of Eldrazi or Tron deck that knocked them out.
Also interesting that again the GDS deck that performed to a high finish was a much more streamlined aggro build with its grinder cards in the SB and double Deprive in the main
To clarify I'm talking about decks like Abzan company, knightfall and elves.
Elves at 26, some Company decks in the 20's. I'm still convinced that CoCo decks while good are just to random going to just have those games where you hit bird, bird and your looking at Eldrazi monsters, plus quite a few Grafdiggers Cages in the SB's of decks.
Coco is horrible to play online. That matters a lot.
It's really not that bad anymore since they did a change to the yields a few months back.
pretty sure the BGx decks are running green creatures, Amulet Titan and Boggles also. I wish we could see the complete brackets and not just the top 8 pairing as I would like see what decks beat out BGx mid-range, did they fall to some combo deck or was it GDS or some kind of Eldrazi or Tron deck that knocked them out.
Also interesting that again the GDS deck that performed to a high finish was a much more streamlined aggro build with its grinder cards in the SB and double Deprive in the main
To clarify I'm talking about decks like Abzan company, knightfall and elves.
Elves at 26, some Company decks in the 20's. I'm still convinced that CoCo decks while good are just to random going to just have those games where you hit bird, bird and your looking at Eldrazi monsters, plus quite a few Grafdiggers Cages in the SB's of decks.
Coco is horrible to play online. That matters a lot.
It's really not that bad anymore since they did a change to the yields a few months back.
You still can't just gain 1 million life in 1 second. It's not close to the same as paper and this is why it sees less play online.
To clarify I'm talking about decks like Abzan company, knightfall and elves.
Elves at 26, some Company decks in the 20's. I'm still convinced that CoCo decks while good are just to random going to just have those games where you hit bird, bird and your looking at Eldrazi monsters, plus quite a few Grafdiggers Cages in the SB's of decks.
Coco is horrible to play online. That matters a lot.
It's really not that bad anymore since they did a change to the yields a few months back.
You still can't just gain 1 million life in 1 second. It's not close to the same as paper and this is why it sees less play online.
So what about the non Abzan company green decks.
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Preach it! Let's just hope that stays true when the Modern PT rolls around.
As long as new cards are printed, and answers remain the way they are. Bans will always be a possibility.
decks playing:
none
So you like bans? Possibility yes, centered around, no. No format is centered around bans I guarantee that. Bans are possible in every format but in no way should they be thought of as a purpose of the format.
A lot of people hear that WOTC doesn't test new sets/cards for anything other than limited and standard and conflate that with not designing for other formats. The two aren't the same. They design a card or two for other formats very often, they simply don't test them in those formats.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
no it wasn't they said that when the designed it they understood that it would be great in non-rotating formats. It like any other card had to be balanced for Standard power levels, did they recognize that revolt as a mechanic would be better in Modern. If a card isn't balanced for standard it simply will not see print, Fatal Push is a great example of WotC taking advantage of a situation once they designed Revolt they understood what could be done with it and took advantage of the situation but they didn't even begin designing the set with the goal of making Modern playable cards they just took advantage of the situation that the Standard design afforded them. Its really to bad that the Revolt mechanic name isn't as vanilla as Prowess, I doubt it will make evergreen status so it will probably be 5-6 years before they get back to it.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
And really that is my point, they set out to develop a Standard set, they balanced the mechanic to function in a safe fun way for standard and realized after the fact "yeah we can do things with this that will be great in older formats" but it wasn't something they had in mind from day one and it never will be. Sometimes its super easy for them to know that they can make pushed cards for older formats because the mechanic is established as great in older formats like Delve, they knew from Tombstalker's history that Delve is great in those formats so Tas, Angler, TC, DDT they had to know at as soon as they settled on that being a set in which Delve would be the showcase mechanic that it would make older format staples/potentially broken cards, but like with TC Standard design always takes the lead in terms of concerns because WotC isn't stupid they had to understand that this was functionally a AR at sorcery speed in Modern/Legacy/Vintage but like with the fore knowledge of the potential risk of printing 3,4,5cc Eldrazi they didn't care. Its easy to say look at Fatal Push because its a well balanced card but they are equally if not more likely to print things that they know will be great in Modern to the point of being broken and potentially demanding a ban to maintain meta-game health.
The real sad part about Revolt is that even if they choose to make it a evergreen mechanic it would likely only ever be printed on B Gand W cards kind of how Prowess was a RUand W mechanic and once moved to evergreen status remained solidly in those colors similar to Trample, Vigilance, etc... it is likely solidly locked into those color identity, same thing with Delve in BUG etc....
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
Yes, it was created to fight Counter-Top.
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
Loving the number of different decks here again. Seems like a good week for controlling decks.
Legacy - LED Dredge, ANT & WDnT
It's also an online event though so that makes a difference. Don't care for Jeff myself but congrats to him on another modern win.
I wonder what is pushing the green creature decks out
Whats your source for it was created to Deal with counter-top? http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/top-decks/it-also-speaks-itself-2012-09-05 This is the only article I could find talking about it and the only mention of any specific card that it was great to Hate on was Delver of Secrets but again this card was clearly designed just to be a super flexible removal for anything 3 or less without protection from BG or Hexproof. WotC designs for Standard first and foremost always.
Also interesting that again the GDS deck that performed to a high finish was a much more streamlined aggro build with its grinder cards in the SB and double Deprive in the main
To clarify I'm talking about decks like Abzan company, knightfall and elves.
Here you go.
Lauer: Modern is a format created by players, not developers. So we tend to be hands off, although we try to avoid adding turn-three kills. With Legacy, we sometimes design "answer cards" such as Abrupt Decay being an answer to Counterbalance. When appropriate, we might do that with Modern. But we haven't had to yet.
Note this was from late 2012, hence the "we haven't had to [design "answer cards" for Modern] yet" (which is likely no longer true).
1 burn
2 Affinity
1 grixis shadow
2 counters company
1 esper control
1 Titan shift
This is from our 50ish player monthly open
Elves at 26, some Company decks in the 20's. I'm still convinced that CoCo decks while good are just to random going to just have those games where you hit bird, bird and your looking at Eldrazi monsters, plus quite a few Grafdiggers Cages in the SB's of decks.
Coco is horrible to play online. That matters a lot.
CoCo decks are miserable to play online since you can't shortcut any infinite loops. Want to make an obscene amount of mana for a huge ballista? have fun tapping and untapping. Infinite life? Infinite Damage? Scry through your deck? It is all the same problem. I used to play a ton of rally online (both standard and in modern) and it was pretty annoying trying to execute the combo and manage the clock.
It's really not that bad anymore since they did a change to the yields a few months back.
You still can't just gain 1 million life in 1 second. It's not close to the same as paper and this is why it sees less play online.
So what about the non Abzan company green decks.