BW tokens does do poorly against traditional ramp decks like traditional Tron, but that's not seeing much play these days. BW tokens can out grind Eldrazi Tron, having push/path for their threats and tokens, intangible virtue, and Sorin, solemn visitor is too much for any midrange deck, unless they're able to get off an All is Dust. Even Hangerback walker loses power with an intangible virtue or two on the field.
Against ramp combo decks like Scapeshift and storm, disruption slows them down and the lifegain can put them out of lethal. Turn 2 auriok champion, turn 3 spectral procession and turn 4 Sorin can put a BW tokens player at 31 life by turn 4, while dealing the opponent 8 damage.
On top of that BW tokens can Side in more disruption, Aven mindcensor and Kambal against both, and then the opponent is stuck with the decision of siding in spot removal against BW tokens or not. I've had a storm player side in dismember against me because of Kambal, only to have to cast it against one of my spirit tokens. And GY hate also does a lot of work against Storm.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
As things are there is no good incentive to change anything. We have a full blocks worth of cards ahead of us before the PT so speculating about February in July seems pointless.
Regarding Eldrazi Temple I still think it doesn't belong in Modern, purely for holistic reasons, but I'm willing to tolerate it for as long as it doesn't homogenize midrange decks in the format (I don't know if that is happening already but I'm guessing a few posters on this thread are keeping track of such things).
It still remains the card most likely to be broken, again, at the pt by a wide margin though.I'm willing to wait this one out but WotC might not be of the same opinion on this given how the last pt went down.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
BW tokens does do poorly against traditional ramp decks like traditional Tron, but that's not seeing much play these days. BW tokens can out grind Eldrazi Tron, having push/path for their threats and tokens, intangible virtue, and Sorin, solemn visitor is too much for any midrange deck, unless they're able to get off an All is Dust. Even Hangerback walker loses power with an intangible virtue or two on the field.
Against ramp combo decks like Scapeshift and storm, disruption slows them down and the lifegain can put them out of lethal. Turn 2 auriok champion, turn 3 spectral procession and turn 4 Sorin can put a BW tokens player at 31 life by turn 4, while dealing the opponent 8 damage.
On top of that BW tokens can Side in more disruption, Aven mindcensor and Kambal against both, and then the opponent is stuck with the decision of siding in spot removal against BW tokens or not. I've had a storm player side in dismember against me because of Kambal, only to have to cast it against one of my spirit tokens. And GY hate also does a lot of work against Storm.
I mean most midrange decks now also play EE, and eldrazi tron runs ratchet bomb too. That's sorta the problem with mental magic - yes we can play out an imaginary game where things go exactly as well as you want, but that's not always the case. Not trying to disparage the deck, I've even thought about building it, but that's just my take.
Guys, what are your predictions for the next announcement? No changes/something gets banned/ something gets unbanned - BBE, JTMS, SFM? I tend to expect an unban but I want to hear your thoughts.
No changes, WotC is okay enough with the current Modern to let it back onto the PT and I doubt they want to risk pooping in the pool before they are going to swim in it. If we get a unban I think it won't happen until after the PT.
For yet another time, we get the confirmation that banning a card always leads to more bans. 6(!!!!) Ramunap Red Decks in Top8!!! (one of them with light splash black(to play Collective Brutality and Ammit Eternal).
I am only certain that the February Modern PT Top8 won't have this extremely bad top 8 standings.
Did they ban something? Not yet so this is a bit premature. Plus what your claiming simply isn't true, this is really the only time in MTG that they had developed such poor sets that it devolved into a spiral of bannings. Really you have to go all the way back to Urza's Saga block bannings to see a level of messing up this hard from R&D. Most of the time its a single ban announcement and it actually achieved the goal like when they Banned JtmS/SFM standard hadn't seen a banning until the recent slew.
I do agree that the Modern PT probably won't look as homogeneous as any Standard PT which normally only have 2-4 decks in them anyways. Unless WotC prints some TC level stuff in the sets between now and then.
Thats my fear. They screw up again, bust Modern for the PT and go 'look Pro's always break the PT we TOLD YOU' instead of taking that long hard look in the mirror.
Yeah, I mean every deck has its weaknesses, but a lot of times BW tokens can come back from a ratchet bomb or EE with a lingering souls from the GY, a bitterblossom, or a Sorin.
I'm not saying BW tokens is the best deck in the format, I'm just surprised it's not even tier 2.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Yeah, I mean every deck has its weaknesses, but a lot of times BW tokens can come back from a ratchet bomb or EE with a lingering souls from the GY, a bitterblossom, or a Sorin.
I'm not saying BW tokens is the best deck in the format, I'm just surprised it's not even tier 2.
As someone who has been jamming fair decks for a few months, I think BW Tokens is a) better than its tiering and b) incapable of doing really busted things. UW Control's and BW Tokens' most unfair and broken plays are still pretty fair. I think this is because these decks don't cheat on mana so their power/explosiveness ceiling is pretty low. This translates to few, if any, free wins, and even your average win can be relatively hard-fought. You also need lots of reps to pick up those matchups and margins. All of this pushes BW Tokens down the charts, but I'm sure you could be pretty successful with it if you committed.
I expect stoneforge sometime in the next year or two. Before a PT would be a good time as it'd open a few avenues to the meta that aren't open without any serious risk of homogenization.
so the majority of player dislike shakeup bans but what about shakeup unbans that happen right before the pro tour to make it more interesting
Not sure if you know this, but when the term "shake up ban" is used, it's used almost exclusively to refer to the situation you just described. To answer your question, I can't speak for everyone but I sure as heck don't want any deck I play hit just to make things "more interesting" nor would I wish that onto other people. If the deck I'm playing is unhealthy for the meta (too much meta presence, T4 rule violator, etc.) fine, but if I wanted top decks to get nerfed just for the sake of artificially changing the meta to make things interesting I'd still be playing Yu-Gi-Oh.
EDIT: So yeah I can't read apparently. Yeah unbans are fine so long as it's not anything that's been proven to be broken
so the majority of player dislike shakeup bans but what about shakeup unbans that happen right before the pro tour to make it more interesting
Not sure if you know this, but when the term "shake up ban" is used, it's used almost exclusively to refer to the situation you just described. To answer your question, I can't speak for everyone but I sure as heck don't want any deck I play hit just to make things "more interesting" nor would I wish that onto other people. If the deck I'm playing is unhealthy for the meta (too much meta presence, T4 rule violator, etc.) fine, but if I wanted top decks to get nerfed just for the sake of artificially changing the meta to make things interesting I'd still be playing Yu-Gi-Oh.
Re read what I wrote I was suggesting shake up unbans. To touch on what you said though bans are and integral part of modern and have been since it's inception. It really doesn't matter if people don't like their decks being banned this is modern and it is what happens. Bannings, new cards and meta shift all can make someone's deck unplayable and they are gone a have to live with that. It's also not like people don't know that banning are a huge part of modern, just look at what dominates modern discussions. Players don't have a right to play a certian deck and if your deck gets banned or becomes unplayable well too bad so sad
so the majority of player dislike shakeup bans but what about shakeup unbans that happen right before the pro tour to make it more interesting
Not sure if you know this, but when the term "shake up ban" is used, it's used almost exclusively to refer to the situation you just described. To answer your question, I can't speak for everyone but I sure as heck don't want any deck I play hit just to make things "more interesting" nor would I wish that onto other people. If the deck I'm playing is unhealthy for the meta (too much meta presence, T4 rule violator, etc.) fine, but if I wanted top decks to get nerfed just for the sake of artificially changing the meta to make things interesting I'd still be playing Yu-Gi-Oh.
Re read what I wrote I was suggesting shake up unbans. To touch on what you said though bans are and integral part of modern and have been since it's inception. It really doesn't matter if people don't like their decks being banned this is modern and it is what happens. Bannings, new cards and meta shift all can make someone's deck unplayable and they are gone a have to live with that. It's also not like people don't know that banning are a huge part of modern, just look at what dominates modern discussions. Players don't have a right to play a certian deck and if your deck gets banned or becomes unplayable well too bad so sad
It's very rare that a new card or an unban will make a deck unplayable. Plenty of people play t3 decks and have fun doing so. Bans however do make decks unplayable and that's why most people prefer to not see them.
With increased GP support and a spot back on the PT, is Modern too popular to not support in more ways than merely getting a Masters set every other year?
Such as actively designing for Modern within the new sets. Think Fatal Push.
Could we finally see new means of injecting new cards into Modern outside of standard filtration?
It just feels like Modern is this giant oil reservoir that isn't being tapped into.
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With increased GP support and a spot back on the PT, is Modern too popular to not support in more ways than merely getting a Masters set every other year?
Such as actively designing for Modern within the new sets. Think Fatal Push.
Could we finally see new means of injecting new cards into Modern outside of standard filtration?
It just feels like Modern is this giant oil reservoir that isn't being tapped into.
WOTC says new sets is how it introduces cards to modern. Sure, they could change that whenever they want, but I don't see that happening any time soon. And since Push and other cards (several of which built new decks) just showed up this year or last, maybe the idea of it being "untapped" is a bit off. New sets have been very relevant.
With increased GP support and a spot back on the PT, is Modern too popular to not support in more ways than merely getting a Masters set every other year?
Such as actively designing for Modern within the new sets. Think Fatal Push.
Could we finally see new means of injecting new cards into Modern outside of standard filtration?
It just feels like Modern is this giant oil reservoir that isn't being tapped into.
Injecting new cards is only going to be via Standard, WotC has restated this multiple times and it just isn't happening.
Fatal Push wasn't designed "for" modern, it like any other card that is good in modern was designed for standard and just happens to shine in Modern.
so the majority of player dislike shakeup bans but what about shakeup unbans that happen right before the pro tour to make it more interesting
Not sure if you know this, but when the term "shake up ban" is used, it's used almost exclusively to refer to the situation you just described. To answer your question, I can't speak for everyone but I sure as heck don't want any deck I play hit just to make things "more interesting" nor would I wish that onto other people. If the deck I'm playing is unhealthy for the meta (too much meta presence, T4 rule violator, etc.) fine, but if I wanted top decks to get nerfed just for the sake of artificially changing the meta to make things interesting I'd still be playing Yu-Gi-Oh.
Re read what I wrote I was suggesting shake up unbans. To touch on what you said though bans are and integral part of modern and have been since it's inception. It really doesn't matter if people don't like their decks being banned this is modern and it is what happens. Bannings, new cards and meta shift all can make someone's deck unplayable and they are gone a have to live with that. It's also not like people don't know that banning are a huge part of modern, just look at what dominates modern discussions. Players don't have a right to play a certian deck and if your deck gets banned or becomes unplayable well too bad so sad
It's very rare that a new card or an unban will make a deck unplayable. Plenty of people play t3 decks and have fun doing so. Bans however do make decks unplayable and that's why most people prefer to not see them.
I understand why people don't like bans. my point is modern is a format centered around bans. you wouldn't complain about swimming because it makes your wet. If you don't like bans modern isn't the format for you
so the majority of player dislike shakeup bans but what about shakeup unbans that happen right before the pro tour to make it more interesting
Not sure if you know this, but when the term "shake up ban" is used, it's used almost exclusively to refer to the situation you just described. To answer your question, I can't speak for everyone but I sure as heck don't want any deck I play hit just to make things "more interesting" nor would I wish that onto other people. If the deck I'm playing is unhealthy for the meta (too much meta presence, T4 rule violator, etc.) fine, but if I wanted top decks to get nerfed just for the sake of artificially changing the meta to make things interesting I'd still be playing Yu-Gi-Oh.
Re read what I wrote I was suggesting shake up unbans. To touch on what you said though bans are and integral part of modern and have been since it's inception. It really doesn't matter if people don't like their decks being banned this is modern and it is what happens. Bannings, new cards and meta shift all can make someone's deck unplayable and they are gone a have to live with that. It's also not like people don't know that banning are a huge part of modern, just look at what dominates modern discussions. Players don't have a right to play a certian deck and if your deck gets banned or becomes unplayable well too bad so sad
It's very rare that a new card or an unban will make a deck unplayable. Plenty of people play t3 decks and have fun doing so. Bans however do make decks unplayable and that's why most people prefer to not see them.
I understand why people don't like bans. my point is modern is a format centered around bans. you wouldn't complain about swimming because it makes your wet. If you don't like bans modern isn't the format for you
You need water to swim you don't need bans to play modern. Horrible analogy imo. Modern isn't centered around bans by any means, nor would wotc want any format to be centered around bans. I'm sorry I just don't agree with that at all.
Modern is no more of a format designed around bans than any other. Where are you getting that idea?
Sure, wizards made some shake up bans for pro tours but by and large bans have been for a reason. Too powerful or oppressive, tournament time, held too high of a meta share etc.
The nature of modern day magic with threats being pushed and answers not always being as powerful as they used to be has led to more bannings than you might expect. But I wouldn't say at all that the format is centered around them.
With increased GP support and a spot back on the PT, is Modern too popular to not support in more ways than merely getting a Masters set every other year?
Such as actively designing for Modern within the new sets. Think Fatal Push.
Could we finally see new means of injecting new cards into Modern outside of standard filtration?
It just feels like Modern is this giant oil reservoir that isn't being tapped into.
Injecting new cards is only going to be via Standard, WotC has restated this multiple times and it just isn't happening.
Fatal Push wasn't designed "for" modern, it like any other card that is good in modern was designed for standard and just happens to shine in Modern.
Didn't Stoddard say it could change?
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GP Singapore Coverage:What did you have for breakfast this morning?
With increased GP support and a spot back on the PT, is Modern too popular to not support in more ways than merely getting a Masters set every other year?
Such as actively designing for Modern within the new sets. Think Fatal Push.
Could we finally see new means of injecting new cards into Modern outside of standard filtration?
It just feels like Modern is this giant oil reservoir that isn't being tapped into.
Injecting new cards is only going to be via Standard, WotC has restated this multiple times and it just isn't happening.
Fatal Push wasn't designed "for" modern, it like any other card that is good in modern was designed for standard and just happens to shine in Modern.
Didn't Stoddard say it could change?
I've only ever read them reaffirm that Modern will not get new cards from side products. Its just something that of course we all want because if you've ever played legacy you know that WotC can produce high impact cards for older formats well when the standard filter isn't mandatory.
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Against ramp combo decks like Scapeshift and storm, disruption slows them down and the lifegain can put them out of lethal. Turn 2 auriok champion, turn 3 spectral procession and turn 4 Sorin can put a BW tokens player at 31 life by turn 4, while dealing the opponent 8 damage.
On top of that BW tokens can Side in more disruption, Aven mindcensor and Kambal against both, and then the opponent is stuck with the decision of siding in spot removal against BW tokens or not. I've had a storm player side in dismember against me because of Kambal, only to have to cast it against one of my spirit tokens. And GY hate also does a lot of work against Storm.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Regarding Eldrazi Temple I still think it doesn't belong in Modern, purely for holistic reasons, but I'm willing to tolerate it for as long as it doesn't homogenize midrange decks in the format (I don't know if that is happening already but I'm guessing a few posters on this thread are keeping track of such things).
It still remains the card most likely to be broken, again, at the pt by a wide margin though.I'm willing to wait this one out but WotC might not be of the same opinion on this given how the last pt went down.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
I mean most midrange decks now also play EE, and eldrazi tron runs ratchet bomb too. That's sorta the problem with mental magic - yes we can play out an imaginary game where things go exactly as well as you want, but that's not always the case. Not trying to disparage the deck, I've even thought about building it, but that's just my take.
No bans/unbans.
Spirits
No changes, WotC is okay enough with the current Modern to let it back onto the PT and I doubt they want to risk pooping in the pool before they are going to swim in it. If we get a unban I think it won't happen until after the PT.
Did they ban something? Not yet so this is a bit premature. Plus what your claiming simply isn't true, this is really the only time in MTG that they had developed such poor sets that it devolved into a spiral of bannings. Really you have to go all the way back to Urza's Saga block bannings to see a level of messing up this hard from R&D. Most of the time its a single ban announcement and it actually achieved the goal like when they Banned JtmS/SFM standard hadn't seen a banning until the recent slew.
I do agree that the Modern PT probably won't look as homogeneous as any Standard PT which normally only have 2-4 decks in them anyways. Unless WotC prints some TC level stuff in the sets between now and then.
Spirits
I'm not saying BW tokens is the best deck in the format, I'm just surprised it's not even tier 2.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
As someone who has been jamming fair decks for a few months, I think BW Tokens is a) better than its tiering and b) incapable of doing really busted things. UW Control's and BW Tokens' most unfair and broken plays are still pretty fair. I think this is because these decks don't cheat on mana so their power/explosiveness ceiling is pretty low. This translates to few, if any, free wins, and even your average win can be relatively hard-fought. You also need lots of reps to pick up those matchups and margins. All of this pushes BW Tokens down the charts, but I'm sure you could be pretty successful with it if you committed.
or maybe this is another one of my ether-induced hallucinations.
Hopeful- Blood braid elf unbanned and stoneforge mystic unbanned
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Not sure if you know this, but when the term "shake up ban" is used, it's used almost exclusively to refer to the situation you just described. To answer your question, I can't speak for everyone but I sure as heck don't want any deck I play hit just to make things "more interesting" nor would I wish that onto other people. If the deck I'm playing is unhealthy for the meta (too much meta presence, T4 rule violator, etc.) fine, but if I wanted top decks to get nerfed just for the sake of artificially changing the meta to make things interesting I'd still be playing Yu-Gi-Oh.EDIT: So yeah I can't read apparently. Yeah unbans are fine so long as it's not anything that's been proven to be broken
Modern:
UWUW Control
UBRGrixis Shadow
URIzzet Phoenix
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Re read what I wrote I was suggesting shake up unbans. To touch on what you said though bans are and integral part of modern and have been since it's inception. It really doesn't matter if people don't like their decks being banned this is modern and it is what happens. Bannings, new cards and meta shift all can make someone's deck unplayable and they are gone a have to live with that. It's also not like people don't know that banning are a huge part of modern, just look at what dominates modern discussions. Players don't have a right to play a certian deck and if your deck gets banned or becomes unplayable well too bad so sad
It's very rare that a new card or an unban will make a deck unplayable. Plenty of people play t3 decks and have fun doing so. Bans however do make decks unplayable and that's why most people prefer to not see them.
Such as actively designing for Modern within the new sets. Think Fatal Push.
Could we finally see new means of injecting new cards into Modern outside of standard filtration?
It just feels like Modern is this giant oil reservoir that isn't being tapped into.
David Ochoa: "Mono-bacon!..."
WOTC says new sets is how it introduces cards to modern. Sure, they could change that whenever they want, but I don't see that happening any time soon. And since Push and other cards (several of which built new decks) just showed up this year or last, maybe the idea of it being "untapped" is a bit off. New sets have been very relevant.
Injecting new cards is only going to be via Standard, WotC has restated this multiple times and it just isn't happening.
Fatal Push wasn't designed "for" modern, it like any other card that is good in modern was designed for standard and just happens to shine in Modern.
I understand why people don't like bans. my point is modern is a format centered around bans. you wouldn't complain about swimming because it makes your wet. If you don't like bans modern isn't the format for you
You need water to swim you don't need bans to play modern. Horrible analogy imo. Modern isn't centered around bans by any means, nor would wotc want any format to be centered around bans. I'm sorry I just don't agree with that at all.
Sure, wizards made some shake up bans for pro tours but by and large bans have been for a reason. Too powerful or oppressive, tournament time, held too high of a meta share etc.
The nature of modern day magic with threats being pushed and answers not always being as powerful as they used to be has led to more bannings than you might expect. But I wouldn't say at all that the format is centered around them.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
Didn't Stoddard say it could change?
David Ochoa: "Mono-bacon!..."
I've only ever read them reaffirm that Modern will not get new cards from side products. Its just something that of course we all want because if you've ever played legacy you know that WotC can produce high impact cards for older formats well when the standard filter isn't mandatory.