I am honestly not a believer - there are only so many bans you can have before you stop considering the format as non-rotating imo. Wizards would rather ban cards instead of exploring and pushing the boundaries of other card types like non-aura enchantments or whatever.
Ld is better vs valakut decks so honestly every color has some form of hate to play if the did really want to.
I wouldn't say the hate is that great. otherwise Jund would be higher up wouldn't it? dont they have access to 4 fulminators out of the sb?
and shouldn't big mana be hurting right now? the rest of the meta is pretty much either hating on it or playing fast linear decks. and it is still 1/3 of the top tiers. if midrange and control decks MUST have very poor matchups like some preach in here, than where are those matchups vs big mana? they clearly aren't that effective or the same thing would be happening to big mana as it has to jund.....
By this January imo its either time we ban something like temple or we give players better hosers vs these types of decks.
You need to decide if you're talking about valakut decks or big mana tron type decks. Valakut decks are ramp decks and yes fulminator can be just fine vs them. If you want to beat a valakut deck you easily can the same as most other decks. The only deck imo that isn't easily hated with sb cards is eldrazi tron. I don't think the deck is an issue but it is the hardest in general to find sb cards to fight it.
Jund got replaced by another jundy deck in dsx that's all and we already discussed why a couple pages back.
Also by January control will have scuttle the wreckage to go with the rest of its hate vs drazi tron. Control imo does have the best matchup vs drazi tron.
im talking about tron eldrazi and valakut. beacuse they all have the same effect on fair decks.
jund got replaced because it was no longer good in an eldrazi meta. its ok if you have 1-2 very bad matchups but when you add a couple others its just too much. and valakut is very rough for jund aswell, even after sideboard. fulminators clearly are not enough in this meta.
its good uw is holding up. but for how long?
Jund got replaced because Fatal Push killed its best creatures, Lightning Bolt doesn't do squat anymore without Snapcaster Mage, and Deathrite Shaman and Bloodbraid Elf are banned. WotC wanted to nerf Jund, and well, they did. The Eldrazi played only the smallest role. Fatal Push is the real culprit. Which is fine. Grixis can be the midrange deck colors now. It's not a big deal.
jund runs fatal push
and does 50/50 vs grixis shadow..... so I dont agree with that reasoning.
I guess I am one of the few that welcome shakeup bans. I can see why people are against them and I don't fault them, but bans have been an integral part of modern pretty much since it's inception. It's also worth mentioning that I'm not attached to any deck in the format so to me shakeup bans have very little downside.
Valakut, tron, and eldrazi tron are all different decks and you can't attack them all the same. Hence why I said ld does work fine vs valakut (because it does).
I guess I am one of the few that welcome shakeup bans. I can see why people are against them and I don't fault them, but bans have been an integral part of modern pretty much since it's inception. It's also worth mentioning that I'm not attached to any deck in the format so to me shakeup bans have very little downside.
Yes, I think you are in the minority there. Most of us I think have decks we are attached to first and foremost, like teams in sports. I wont cheer for the Patriots, just like I wont cheer for ETron.
I guess I am one of the few that welcome shakeup bans. I can see why people are against them and I don't fault them, but bans have been an integral part of modern pretty much since it's inception. It's also worth mentioning that I'm not attached to any deck in the format so to me shakeup bans have very little downside.
Yes, I think you are in the minority there. Most of us I think have decks we are attached to first and foremost, like teams in sports. I wont cheer for the Patriots, just like I wont cheer for ETron.
Sure I'm in the minority, no disagreement from me. Again bans are a integral part of modern and most people know this. It doesn't really matter if people are attached to a deck, many players have had their decks banned in modern. No deck had the right to exist, we have what we have
I know we have a ways to go but barring any major change to the format what is everyone's pro tour predictions. I beleive that it will be dominated by affinity, grixis shadow and eldrazi tron
I know we have a ways to go but barring any major change to the format what is everyone's pro tour predictions. I beleive that it will be dominated by affinity, grixis shadow and eldrazi tron
I think it will be something we don't know about yet. Possibly having to do with Collected Company.
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WoTC, thank you for finally announcing the Modern format, an eternal format where everyone can participate.
I know we have a ways to go but barring any major change to the format what is everyone's pro tour predictions. I beleive that it will be dominated by affinity, grixis shadow and eldrazi tron
I think it will be something we don't know about yet. Possibly having to do with Collected Company.
I have a hard time seeing a coco deck doing well on a pro tour level. Coco while powerful is not exactly consistent and you have to play a bunch of mediocre creatures.
I know we have a ways to go but barring any major change to the format what is everyone's pro tour predictions. I beleive that it will be dominated by affinity, grixis shadow and eldrazi tron
There are plenty of cards to be seen yet so it's really hard to say. Most pros default to decks like affinity/burn and think/know they can get an edge in draft. My guess is the above, whatever seems to see the least amount of sideboard hate at the time, or just what they randomly like most.
I know we have a ways to go but barring any major change to the format what is everyone's pro tour predictions. I beleive that it will be dominated by affinity, grixis shadow and eldrazi tron
I think it will be something we don't know about yet. Possibly having to do with Collected Company.
I have a hard time seeing a coco deck doing well on a pro tour level. Coco while powerful is not exactly consistent and you have to play a bunch of mediocre creatures.
I guess I am one of the few that welcome shakeup bans. I can see why people are against them and I don't fault them, but bans have been an integral part of modern pretty much since it's inception. It's also worth mentioning that I'm not attached to any deck in the format so to me shakeup bans have very little downside.
Yes, I think you are in the minority there. Most of us I think have decks we are attached to first and foremost, like teams in sports. I wont cheer for the Patriots, just like I wont cheer for ETron.
Sure I'm in the minority, no disagreement from me. Again bans are a integral part of modern and most people know this. It doesn't really matter if people are attached to a deck, many players have had their decks banned in modern. No deck had the right to exist, we have what we have
So you prefer to have decks banned and play a rotating format? Why not just play standard?
I know we have a ways to go but barring any major change to the format what is everyone's pro tour predictions. I beleive that it will be dominated by affinity, grixis shadow and eldrazi tron
I mean the PT is going to be in 6 months. The format will change in numerous ways, bannings or unbannings alike. New cards will come out, decks will be discovered further and new brews will be in place. Those 3 decks might seem hot at the moment but none of those 3 may be dominant at all come the Modern PT. Ask us this in January and we may get a better estimate of what to see.
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Modern URBSome variant of Death's Shadow URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version) JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / Infect
The successful coco decks generally have contained some creature based combo to increase the payoff for running collected company. The creatures that enable these combos are pretty bad on their own. As for the banning part, I am pro bans that help the format. Modern has been a format centered around bans, I simply embrace it and look for the silver lining in them. I would also totally play standard but wizards has to prove that they can make a good standard environment
The successful coco decks generally have contained some creature based combo to increase the payoff for running collected company. The creatures that enable these combos are pretty bad on their own. As for the banning part, I am pro bans that help the format. Modern has been a format centered around bans, I simply embrace it and look for the silver lining in them. I would also totally play standard but wizards has to prove that they can make a good standard environment
It was stated a coco deck that hasn't been seen yet.
Seems fair, they can't make a good standard so I hope there are bans and such so they can make a good modern.
The successful coco decks generally have contained some creature based combo to increase the payoff for running collected company. The creatures that enable these combos are pretty bad on their own. As for the banning part, I am pro bans that help the format. Modern has been a format centered around bans, I simply embrace it and look for the silver lining in them. I would also totally play standard but wizards has to prove that they can make a good standard environment
It was stated a coco deck that hasn't been seen yet.
Seems fair, they can't make a good standard so I hope there are bans and such so they can make a good modern.
I stated that the successful coco decks involve a creature combo which most likely involves having to play some mediocre creatures. Well my acceptance of modern bans is in no way related to standard being mediocre
The successful coco decks generally have contained some creature based combo to increase the payoff for running collected company. The creatures that enable these combos are pretty bad on their own. As for the banning part, I am pro bans that help the format. Modern has been a format centered around bans, I simply embrace it and look for the silver lining in them. I would also totally play standard but wizards has to prove that they can make a good standard environment
It was stated a coco deck that hasn't been seen yet.
Seems fair, they can't make a good standard so I hope there are bans and such so they can make a good modern.
I stated that the successful coco decks involve a creature combo which most likely involves having to play some mediocre creatures. Well my acceptance of modern bans is in no way related to standard being mediocre
Coco deck doesn't have to be a combo deck though. It was stated that they feel something new involving coco. My point is if you admit they can't make a good standard what should ever make you think they could foresee how a format would look with them banning cards to try to make it better? They test standard and mess it up they don't test modern and and the format is for the most part good. Have you seen what they've done with the 1v1 commander banlist on mtgo? There is very little that makes me think the format is in good hands with wotc tweaking it through bans.
The successful coco decks generally have contained some creature based combo to increase the payoff for running collected company. The creatures that enable these combos are pretty bad on their own. As for the banning part, I am pro bans that help the format. Modern has been a format centered around bans, I simply embrace it and look for the silver lining in them. I would also totally play standard but wizards has to prove that they can make a good standard environment
It was stated a coco deck that hasn't been seen yet.
Seems fair, they can't make a good standard so I hope there are bans and such so they can make a good modern.
I stated that the successful coco decks involve a creature combo which most likely involves having to play some mediocre creatures. Well my acceptance of modern bans is in no way related to standard being mediocre
The Coco dexk doesnt necesarily have to include a combo butIt was stated that they feel something new involving coco. My point is if you admit they can't make a good standard what should ever make you think they could foresee how a format would look with them banning cards to try to make it better? They test standard and mess it up they don't test modern and and the format is for the most part good. Have you seen what they've done with the 1v1 commander banlist on mtgo? There is very little that makes me think the format is in good hands with wotc tweaking it through bans.
All the successful coco decks have ran a creature based combo. Playing coco for value has proven not to be good enough for modern, your 4 mana spells need to be incredibly impactful. This is where my doubt of a coco deck doing well at the or comes from. I never said that they CAN'T make a good standard but rather that they haven't been. Wotc has banned cards to make formats better and they have succeeded. I get that you are saying that wizards has a tendency to mess up formats with bans and that is reasonable. I don't view modern as a great format right now but I do see potential in it and that potential can be unlocked through bans.
It just seems to me that in 6 month Collected Company will be a powerful card that the meta will not be oriented to fight. Thus, I think if a pro can break it, they will do well at the pro tour. Very possible it'll be some other random card like Knowledge Pool.
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WoTC, thank you for finally announcing the Modern format, an eternal format where everyone can participate.
People complaining about the decline of Jund annoy me. Well, no. People who are saying "Man, I miss being able to play Jund since it was my favourite deck" are fine. People who are complaining about Jund's declining meta share and suggesting that there should be bans or more specific hate to alleviate it annoy me.
NO DECK HAS AN UNALIENABLE RIGHT TO BE TIER ONE. The meta has shifted in such a way that Jund and Junk are not as favoured as they used to be and as such their meta percentage has dropped. This is how metagames work.
Modern - and Magic in general - is not a game where you can invest in one deck and expect it to stay at the top tiers of competitive viability for the rest of time. Just doesn't happen that way. It sucks when you've spent a lot of money on a deck because it wins and then the deck stops being a key player in the meta, but the game is expressly designed so that the meta will shift and that different decks will become prominent over time.
What you are complaining about is not a bug, it's a design feature. It's part of the game.
Jund and Junk are on the down-low at the moment because the meta has shifted. It sucks if you enjoyed those decks, but it's what happens. And it turns out that a deck doesn't arbitrarily deserve to be tier 1 because the deck is "fair" or interacts and wins via combat.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
The successful coco decks generally have contained some creature based combo to increase the payoff for running collected company. The creatures that enable these combos are pretty bad on their own. As for the banning part, I am pro bans that help the format. Modern has been a format centered around bans, I simply embrace it and look for the silver lining in them. I would also totally play standard but wizards has to prove that they can make a good standard environment
It was stated a coco deck that hasn't been seen yet.
Seems fair, they can't make a good standard so I hope there are bans and such so they can make a good modern.
I stated that the successful coco decks involve a creature combo which most likely involves having to play some mediocre creatures. Well my acceptance of modern bans is in no way related to standard being mediocre
The Coco dexk doesnt necesarily have to include a combo butIt was stated that they feel something new involving coco. My point is if you admit they can't make a good standard what should ever make you think they could foresee how a format would look with them banning cards to try to make it better? They test standard and mess it up they don't test modern and and the format is for the most part good. Have you seen what they've done with the 1v1 commander banlist on mtgo? There is very little that makes me think the format is in good hands with wotc tweaking it through bans.
All the successful coco decks have ran a creature based combo. Playing coco for value has proven not to be good enough for modern, your 4 mana spells need to be incredibly impactful. This is where my doubt of a coco deck doing well at the or comes from. I never said that they CAN'T make a good standard but rather that they haven't been. Wotc has banned cards to make formats better and they have succeeded. I get that you are saying that wizards has a tendency to mess up formats with bans and that is reasonable. I don't view modern as a great format right now but I do see potential in it and that potential can be unlocked through bans.
It was stated a coco deck that hasn't been seen yet.
Seems fair, they can't make a good standard so I hope there are bans and such so they can make a good modern.
I stated that the successful coco decks involve a creature combo which most likely involves having to play some mediocre creatures. Well my acceptance of modern bans is in no way related to standard being mediocre
The Coco dexk doesnt necesarily have to include a combo butIt was stated that they feel something new involving coco. My point is if you admit they can't make a good standard what should ever make you think they could foresee how a format would look with them banning cards to try to make it better? They test standard and mess it up they don't test modern and and the format is for the most part good. Have you seen what they've done with the 1v1 commander banlist on mtgo? There is very little that makes me think the format is in good hands with wotc tweaking it through bans.
All the successful coco decks have ran a creature based combo. Playing coco for value has proven not to be good enough for modern, your 4 mana spells need to be incredibly impactful. This is where my doubt of a coco deck doing well at the or comes from. I never said that they CAN'T make a good standard but rather that they haven't been. Wotc has banned cards to make formats better and they have succeeded. I get that you are saying that wizards has a tendency to mess up formats with bans and that is reasonable. I don't view modern as a great format right now but I do see potential in it and that potential can be unlocked through bans.
I stated that the successful coco decks involve a creature combo which most likely involves having to play some mediocre creatures. Well my acceptance of modern bans is in no way related to standard being mediocre
The Coco dexk doesnt necesarily have to include a combo butIt was stated that they feel something new involving coco. My point is if you admit they can't make a good standard what should ever make you think they could foresee how a format would look with them banning cards to try to make it better? They test standard and mess it up they don't test modern and and the format is for the most part good. Have you seen what they've done with the 1v1 commander banlist on mtgo? There is very little that makes me think the format is in good hands with wotc tweaking it through bans.
All the successful coco decks have ran a creature based combo. Playing coco for value has proven not to be good enough for modern, your 4 mana spells need to be incredibly impactful. This is where my doubt of a coco deck doing well at the or comes from. I never said that they CAN'T make a good standard but rather that they haven't been. Wotc has banned cards to make formats better and they have succeeded. I get that you are saying that wizards has a tendency to mess up formats with bans and that is reasonable. I don't view modern as a great format right now but I do see potential in it and that potential can be unlocked through bans.
We have different definitions of successful. That deck has only done well in his hands similar to how kiki chord only performed well for Jeff hoogland
You don't think winning is successful or that a true pro player could play it as well as Todd? You're trying to say only popular coco decks are combo then not successful because not that many coco decks have been successful in general if we're going by something bigger than tournament wins.
I stated that the successful coco decks involve a creature combo which most likely involves having to play some mediocre creatures. Well my acceptance of modern bans is in no way related to standard being mediocre
The Coco dexk doesnt necesarily have to include a combo butIt was stated that they feel something new involving coco. My point is if you admit they can't make a good standard what should ever make you think they could foresee how a format would look with them banning cards to try to make it better? They test standard and mess it up they don't test modern and and the format is for the most part good. Have you seen what they've done with the 1v1 commander banlist on mtgo? There is very little that makes me think the format is in good hands with wotc tweaking it through bans.
All the successful coco decks have ran a creature based combo. Playing coco for value has proven not to be good enough for modern, your 4 mana spells need to be incredibly impactful. This is where my doubt of a coco deck doing well at the or comes from. I never said that they CAN'T make a good standard but rather that they haven't been. Wotc has banned cards to make formats better and they have succeeded. I get that you are saying that wizards has a tendency to mess up formats with bans and that is reasonable. I don't view modern as a great format right now but I do see potential in it and that potential can be unlocked through bans.
We have different definitions of successful. That deck has only done well in his hands similar to how kiki chord only performed well for Jeff hoogland
Stevens was successful because he put in a ton of reps on MTGO, has been playing that deck for a long time, and was up against a pro metagame where he accurately predicted what most people would play. Most players and pros aren't willing/able to dedicate that time to be so successful. Incidentally, this is why many blame variance for their poor Modern performance; it takes a steep time investment to have that kind of format success and it's easier to attribute losses to other factors.
The Coco dexk doesnt necesarily have to include a combo butIt was stated that they feel something new involving coco. My point is if you admit they can't make a good standard what should ever make you think they could foresee how a format would look with them banning cards to try to make it better? They test standard and mess it up they don't test modern and and the format is for the most part good. Have you seen what they've done with the 1v1 commander banlist on mtgo? There is very little that makes me think the format is in good hands with wotc tweaking it through bans.
All the successful coco decks have ran a creature based combo. Playing coco for value has proven not to be good enough for modern, your 4 mana spells need to be incredibly impactful. This is where my doubt of a coco deck doing well at the or comes from. I never said that they CAN'T make a good standard but rather that they haven't been. Wotc has banned cards to make formats better and they have succeeded. I get that you are saying that wizards has a tendency to mess up formats with bans and that is reasonable. I don't view modern as a great format right now but I do see potential in it and that potential can be unlocked through bans.
We have different definitions of successful. That deck has only done well in his hands similar to how kiki chord only performed well for Jeff hoogland
You don't think winning is successful or that a true pro player could play it as well as Todd? You're trying to say only popular coco decks are combo then not successful because not that many coco decks have been successful in general if we're going by something bigger than tournament wins.
I'm saying that deck isn't successful It has only had good finishes with Todd Stevens as a pilot. It's more of a testament to him being a master than the deck being good. Would you consider kiki chord a good deck when it was around even though obly Hoogland has done well with it. I agree that not many coco decks have been successful but the ones seeing the most success have included a creature based combo
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and does 50/50 vs grixis shadow..... so I dont agree with that reasoning.
decks playing:
none
Yes, I think you are in the minority there. Most of us I think have decks we are attached to first and foremost, like teams in sports. I wont cheer for the Patriots, just like I wont cheer for ETron.
Spirits
Sure I'm in the minority, no disagreement from me. Again bans are a integral part of modern and most people know this. It doesn't really matter if people are attached to a deck, many players have had their decks banned in modern. No deck had the right to exist, we have what we have
Most of us want to play what we have, and not have it taken away.
The point as it is, of non-rotation.
Spirits
I think it will be something we don't know about yet. Possibly having to do with Collected Company.
I have a hard time seeing a coco deck doing well on a pro tour level. Coco while powerful is not exactly consistent and you have to play a bunch of mediocre creatures.
There are plenty of cards to be seen yet so it's really hard to say. Most pros default to decks like affinity/burn and think/know they can get an edge in draft. My guess is the above, whatever seems to see the least amount of sideboard hate at the time, or just what they randomly like most.
Why do you have to run mediocre creatures?
So you prefer to have decks banned and play a rotating format? Why not just play standard?
I mean the PT is going to be in 6 months. The format will change in numerous ways, bannings or unbannings alike. New cards will come out, decks will be discovered further and new brews will be in place. Those 3 decks might seem hot at the moment but none of those 3 may be dominant at all come the Modern PT. Ask us this in January and we may get a better estimate of what to see.
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
It was stated a coco deck that hasn't been seen yet.
Seems fair, they can't make a good standard so I hope there are bans and such so they can make a good modern.
I stated that the successful coco decks involve a creature combo which most likely involves having to play some mediocre creatures. Well my acceptance of modern bans is in no way related to standard being mediocre
Coco deck doesn't have to be a combo deck though. It was stated that they feel something new involving coco. My point is if you admit they can't make a good standard what should ever make you think they could foresee how a format would look with them banning cards to try to make it better? They test standard and mess it up they don't test modern and and the format is for the most part good. Have you seen what they've done with the 1v1 commander banlist on mtgo? There is very little that makes me think the format is in good hands with wotc tweaking it through bans.
All the successful coco decks have ran a creature based combo. Playing coco for value has proven not to be good enough for modern, your 4 mana spells need to be incredibly impactful. This is where my doubt of a coco deck doing well at the or comes from. I never said that they CAN'T make a good standard but rather that they haven't been. Wotc has banned cards to make formats better and they have succeeded. I get that you are saying that wizards has a tendency to mess up formats with bans and that is reasonable. I don't view modern as a great format right now but I do see potential in it and that potential can be unlocked through bans.
NO DECK HAS AN UNALIENABLE RIGHT TO BE TIER ONE. The meta has shifted in such a way that Jund and Junk are not as favoured as they used to be and as such their meta percentage has dropped. This is how metagames work.
Modern - and Magic in general - is not a game where you can invest in one deck and expect it to stay at the top tiers of competitive viability for the rest of time. Just doesn't happen that way. It sucks when you've spent a lot of money on a deck because it wins and then the deck stops being a key player in the meta, but the game is expressly designed so that the meta will shift and that different decks will become prominent over time.
What you are complaining about is not a bug, it's a design feature. It's part of the game.
Jund and Junk are on the down-low at the moment because the meta has shifted. It sucks if you enjoyed those decks, but it's what happens. And it turns out that a deck doesn't arbitrarily deserve to be tier 1 because the deck is "fair" or interacts and wins via combat.
Didn't Todd Stevens just play a none combo coco deck to a win at the team open? Rather impressively too?
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=114996
We have different definitions of successful. That deck has only done well in his hands similar to how kiki chord only performed well for Jeff hoogland
You don't think winning is successful or that a true pro player could play it as well as Todd? You're trying to say only popular coco decks are combo then not successful because not that many coco decks have been successful in general if we're going by something bigger than tournament wins.
Stevens was successful because he put in a ton of reps on MTGO, has been playing that deck for a long time, and was up against a pro metagame where he accurately predicted what most people would play. Most players and pros aren't willing/able to dedicate that time to be so successful. Incidentally, this is why many blame variance for their poor Modern performance; it takes a steep time investment to have that kind of format success and it's easier to attribute losses to other factors.
I'm saying that deck isn't successful It has only had good finishes with Todd Stevens as a pilot. It's more of a testament to him being a master than the deck being good. Would you consider kiki chord a good deck when it was around even though obly Hoogland has done well with it. I agree that not many coco decks have been successful but the ones seeing the most success have included a creature based combo