DRS may be too powerful for legacy, there's already concern it's the new target ban.
DRS will never, ever, ever be unbanned in modern. We have a better chance of seeing Dig through time, Jace and SFM being unbanned at the same time than a DRS unban
DRS is an aggro, life-gain, graveyard, ramp card rolled into one. It's an outrageous card.
Punishing Fire would invalidate creature aggro. You can't unban it.
My real hang-up with text driven conversation is that inflection and tone have to be spelled out, otherwise there's a good chance this happens. Granted I didn't do a great job of it, being at work and doing this via mobile aka I was in a hurry; my intent was to further build upon a previous post saying that people had freaked out over the possibility of BBE into Liliana. The chances of that are remote, and I thought I'd be hyperbolic and funny by suggesting that BBE could help Living End, which as some have pointed out, is absurd. I have successfully failed at presenting this point and have instead led other posters to believe I am simple and soft-headed, for which I apologise profusely.
fair play my friend. I too suffer at the hands of trying to access MTGS on a mobile, and all the nonsense that ensues.
Thanks for understanding. Back to talking about MTG, it'll be interesting to see how the PT goes next year. Is the sky falling, or is Modern in a decent place? Kind of weird to put all of that on a PT, but that seems to be the situation. One thing I think we can all agree on is that the top decks, while diverse among themselves, aren't what we want among the best decks.
I don't really have a problem with any one of the top decks except Titanshift, and that's just my personal bias, but having all of them be the best of their respective archetypes is problematic.
You raise an interesting point by talking about the top decks in this way:
Neither titanshift or eldrazi tron has placed well at a large tournament in a long time. This recent scg Charlotte event showed E-tron having one of the worst conversion rates I think I've seen, with a large number of total players on the deck, 15 making day two and then only one just barely scraping into the top 32. Titanshift is hardly any better (in fact to be brutally honest it's worse)
Both decks are suffering from "everyone says this deck is good but results aren't backing up this assertion", which is sort of weird!
We know that both decks have had a relatively recent spike in popularity, but this really isn't translating into actual results. Obviously there's a lot of factors playing into this. There's no one solution to the puzzle.
But the fact remains there's a lot of vocal individuals making themselves heard on streams, comments-sections and on forums to the effect that these two decks (specifically these decks) are like the death of modern or something, and the sky is falling and for some reason they need to be banned or it's all doom & gloom, and they are going to quit modern.
It's a specific kind of person that will persistently hang around these places online and just hammer a negative opinion over and over, rather than taking their leave or looking for positive alternatives. I don't think it's particularly helpful as a narrative (partly because it's so visible, these people take efforts to be seen) and I'm confused by the disconnect between actual results, modern metagame analysis, anecdotal local results and the persistent whining coming from this vocal minority.
Maybe there's something I'm missing, but I haven't seen any actual evidence that modern is in any kind of doldrums or bad way. Seems fine, like genuinely fine. You can pretty much play what you want, there's decent sideboard options in basically every colour, splashing for additional colours in your deck is easier than ever and no single deck is in a dominating format-warping position. Moreover, just like always, the metagame pendulum is constantly swinging and before long we'll see that familiar flux happening with decks rising and falling on the rankings. Everyone's so keen to take a snapshot of modern and cry foul, without acknowledging the changing nature that's always been part of the format.
Anyway that's not a dig at you personally, it just addresses a point echoed by your comment. I was addressing the community at-large not picking on you. Hope that's clear
No sweat. To clarify, I don't think Modern is really in trouble, it's just that the top decks (for the most part) are really polarizing. I mentioned before that I'm not a fan of Titanshift, but I've seen people that are scared to death of Eldrazi Tron. There are others who think that Storm is the signal of the apocalypse, and that Splinter Twin is the savior Modern needs. Because we have a severe lack of hard data, our own experiences are going to color our perception of the meta. I pilot GDS primarily, and it's a hell of a lot of fun, but even though a lot of people consider it the most 'fair' of the top tier decks, there are those that hate my guts when they sit across the table knowing what's coming. There's a particular Tron player at my LGS who thinks anyone playing blue is the anti-christ, but it just goes to show how much personal experience shapes our perspective.
DRS may be too powerful for legacy, there's already concern it's the new target ban.
DRS will never, ever, ever be unbanned in modern. We have a better chance of seeing Dig through time, Jace and SFM being unbanned at the same time than a DRS unban
DRS is an aggro, life-gain, graveyard, ramp card rolled into one. It's an outrageous card.
Punishing Fire would invalidate creature aggro. You can't unban it.
Lol I hate jund and don't want any of those cards unbanned. You said no cards in jund were unfair, and used that statement to justify BBE. I simply pointed out the error in that statement.
I don't think Punishing Fire is that great. What creature decks does it invalidate exactly?
All of them.
Oh, you wanted a list. Well, Affinity, Death and Taxes, Elves, Merfolk, Counters Company, Humans, Faeries, Soul Sisters, and to a lesser extent Burn (it's also possible that Burn just starts playing it).
Unless you want a swap ban with Grove, Punishing Fire should just stay banned.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I don't think Punishing Fire is that great. What creature decks does it invalidate exactly?
Punishing Fire is one of those combos that looks harmless enough but in actual play is far stronger than it looks on paper. PF grinds out games hard. Pretty much every deck in the format was splashing for the combo when it was legal, that's how powerful it was.
In regards to BlueTronFTW comments, it was clear to anyone playing back then that DRS was the problem in Jund when both BBE and DRS were legal in Jund. This was clear when Lingering Jund was still like 20% of the metagame after BBE had been banned for months. BBE was never a problem before DRS, BBE was simply banned to weaken Junds dominance in the metagame and it failed as the real culprit [DRS] got banned anyway. Just because you don't like a deck doesn't make it justified not undoing a mistake - especially when the deck it would help is low Tier 3.
DRS was better, but BBE was only played in jund. The goal was to reduce the power/dominance of Jund while impacting as few decks as possible which is one of the core goals of bans. After the DRS ban Jund was still the most dominant deck and remained tier 1 until Fatal Push was printed so there was no real reason to unban something to strengthen it where the risk that the unban would go too far. Now though you are right that it is just tier 3 and it should be unbanned. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if the only reason it hasn't been unbanned yet is they made such a mess of the Standard list the last year that they are afraid to touch anything in modern lest it fall apart.
DRS may be too powerful for legacy, there's already concern it's the new target ban.
DRS will never, ever, ever be unbanned in modern. We have a better chance of seeing Dig through time, Jace and SFM being unbanned at the same time than a DRS unban
DRS is an aggro, life-gain, graveyard, ramp card rolled into one. It's an outrageous card.
Punishing Fire would invalidate creature aggro. You can't unban it.
Lol I hate jund and don't want any of those cards unbanned. You said no cards in jund were unfair, and used that statement to justify BBE. I simply pointed out the error in that statement.
I don't think it was an error in his statement. Bloodbraid Elf doesn't currently cascade into anything broken CURRENTLY in Jund. It doesn't mean that either Bloodbraid Elf stays banned or every single possible card that Jund could play gets unbanned. I don't think it's an either/or. Maybe something good even comes out of Jund possibly policing Storm, then Storm (hopefully) won't be the #1 prospect of bannings.
I hate Jund too. It was my mortal enemy in Standard. I've played it fewer times than I can count on 1 hand since its inception and despite having a super inflated win percentage with it in those limited amount of matches, I don't really like playing it. I probably wouldn't play it unless it was hands down the best deck in Modern. But then, I would even consider Burn if that was the case for Burn. For me, there's no reason not to play a Tier 1 deck, unless I'm allergic to winning. Still...I believe that Bloodbraid Elf is fine. I would like to see players run them so I could beat them with decks that don't lose much percentage points vs. Jund if BBE were to be unbanned. cough, cough, Valakut...
*Some people may even wonder, "why am I advocating for the unban of Bloodbraid Elf?" My reasoning is solely this. I want cards unbanned. Bloodbraid Elf is the most harmless in my eyes. If that can be unbanned, maybe something else can. Somewhere down the line if stuff like JTMS, SfM, BBE, and Preordain come back, hopefully I'll get another chance at something like Green Sun's Zenith or Seething Song (or Git Probe again). We have to start somewhere and I realistically believe that WotC may start with BBE. I think they're too chicken***** to start with another card.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
as long as land-based combo decks exist, it doesn't matter what value card you unban for the midrange decks. They will still be crushed because lands are hard to interact with in modern outside of the sideboard (sometimes mainboard) blood moon. If you're a midrange deck that can't play blood moon well (grixis, abzan, tokens), then you have a few options:
1. Play another deck
2. Whine on MTGS and be labelled a "vocal minority"
3. Modify your deck into combo (URx - storm, GWx - counters) and ignore the tron lands/valakuts like how they ignore you
More than 1 option can be chosen. I've personally gone with all 3 previously, playing decks that can beat the land-based combo decks while also calling for change (i really like playing interaction outside of blood moon which isn't really interaction anyway), but lately I've dropped option 2 for the most part, since the people who aren't being owned by the land combo decks will label you minority. You just hope someday their main decks will be the ones wiped from feasibility and you can be there ready to label them a vocal minority.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I don't think Punishing Fire is that great. What creature decks does it invalidate exactly?
All of them.
Oh, you wanted a list. Well, Affinity, Death and Taxes, Elves, Merfolk, Counters Company, Humans, Faeries, Soul Sisters, and to a lesser extent Burn (it's also possible that Burn just starts playing it).
Because Humans, Faeries, and Soul Sisters are tearing up the metagame as is, right? Seriously though, Humans? Punishing Fire can't invalidate what's already invalidated. And the idea Burn would run it is laughable. Might as well have Gx Tron run Blood Moon.
I do find your assertion that Affinity would be invalidated amusing, however, as it was Tier 1 while Punishing Fire was in the format (and Zoo was something like Tier 0.5).
As for the others, good ol' Pyroclasm is generally better than Punishing Fire against them, though admittedly Punishing Fire does have more general utility.
I don't think Punishing Fire is that great. What creature decks does it invalidate exactly?
All of them.
Oh, you wanted a list. Well, Affinity, Death and Taxes, Elves, Merfolk, Counters Company, Humans, Faeries, Soul Sisters, and to a lesser extent Burn (it's also possible that Burn just starts playing it).
Because Humans, Faeries, and Soul Sisters are tearing up the metagame as is, right? Seriously though, Humans? Punishing Fire can't invalidate what's already invalidated. And the idea Burn would run it is laughable. Might as well have Gx Tron run Blood Moon.
Billiondegree wanted a list of decks. That's a list of decks. I basically just combed through the Tier 1, Tier 2, and Developing Competitive lists and figured out which ones play a surplus of creatures with 2 toughness or less. If you have a problem with the decks on the list, take it up with the Modern metagame, not me. Just because a deck has a small metagame share doesn't mean the deck doesn't exist.
I do find your assertion that Affinity would be invalidated amusing, however, as it was Tier 1 while Punishing Fire was in the format (and Zoo was something like Tier 0.5).
Punishing Fire was banned in December 2011. Modern first became a format in June 2011 during the Community Cup. Modern's initial ban list was in June and it was subsequently updated in August and September.
Which brings us back to your point: is your contention that Affinity would be okay because it was viable between October and December of 2011?
As for the others, good ol' Pyroclasm is generally better than Punishing Fire against them, though admittedly Punishing Fire does have more general utility.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
as long as land-based combo decks exist, it doesn't matter what value card you unban for the midrange decks. They will still be crushed because lands are hard to interact with in modern outside of the sideboard (sometimes mainboard) blood moon. If you're a midrange deck that can't play blood moon well (grixis, abzan, tokens), then you have a few options:
1. Play another deck
2. Whine on MTGS and be labelled a "vocal minority"
3. Modify your deck into combo (URx - storm, GWx - counters) and ignore the tron lands/valakuts like how they ignore you
More than 1 option can be chosen. I've personally gone with all 3 previously, playing decks that can beat the land-based combo decks while also calling for change (i really like playing interaction outside of blood moon which isn't really interaction anyway), but lately I've dropped option 2 for the most part, since the people who aren't being owned by the land combo decks will label you minority. You just hope someday their main decks will be the ones wiped from feasibility and you can be there ready to label them a vocal minority.
You actually have another option, write off those matches as ones that your archetype of choice will never be favored against and move on. Midrange is in no way entitled to no weaknesses as an archetype, same as the rest of the format. That's just part of Modern, no matter which deck you play, there will be an archetype or sub-archetype that you just fundamentally don't have a good chance against, with no reasonable way to deal with it. Tron loses to faster combo, as a Tron player, I look at some sideboard options, but otherwise write off those games and accept that it's a meta deck. I seriously cannot understand why midrange players feel like they have the right to have a reasonable chance against everything in the format, and no crippling weaknesses, when that is not the case for any other archetype. It really just comes across as entitled and whiny. If you absolutely have to win against everything, and you refuse to play another deck better suited for the decks you see, I would remind you that your sideboard is also a part of your deck. Splash white, play Stony Silence, or play Crumble to Dust. As a Tron player, I assure you, it'll do wonders for your Tron matchup, and my LGS Scapeshift player hates Crumble more than any other card in the game. Midrange works on skill, part of being a good player is knowing strengths, weaknesses, how to adapt, and what to bother adapting to
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It's worth noting that part of the reason Grixis Shadow is the midrange deck of choice at the moment is because its matchup versus land based combo decks is much closer to even than the old traditional Jund lists were.
As a Titanshift player, I have a terrible record against Grixis Shadow because my opponent knows the match up well, and usually goes for a draw that either leads into two turn 3 Shadows or a turn 3 Shadow and an Angler. That is a lot of pressure, especially when they can then sit for the rest of the game holding up Stubs.
Land based combo is annoying if you're playing midrange, but there are ways to fight it - which does involve changing your deck, possibly even to the extent of changing colours. But that's one of the biggest things about Magic; you can't sleeve up the same 75 every year without making changes; you have to adapt to what's going on in the meta. RG Scapeshift as a deck has only really existed for two years, mainly because while Twin was around, it was incredibly terrible; once Twin disappeared, we could drop the blue from RUG Scapeshift and focus on being more all-in.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
RG Scapeshift as a deck has only really existed for two years, mainly because while Twin was around, it was incredibly terrible; once Twin disappeared, we could drop the blue from RUG Scapeshift and focus on being more all-in.
This statement is exactly why I spent nearly two years complaining about the Twin ban. It was likely the single largest contributing factor to the exponential increase of all-in, linear strategies. So much so that even after multiple other bans (Probe, GGT), it's STILL a problem because no reactive/control/tempo deck can deal with so many different levels of linear degeneracy as efficiently as Twin (and do so without ever holding an oppressive share of the meta).
We all assume nothing will change until after the PT. Hopefully then they will realize how much they have F'd Modern and give us Twin back at that point. Hopefully along with other cards that have no business being banned like BBE and SFM.
I don't think BBE belongs on the banlist either, but I'm surprised no one has tried to make the argument that it could elevate Living End.
uh, because it wouldn't 0_0
My real hang-up with text driven conversation is that inflection and tone have to be spelled out, otherwise there's a good chance this happens. Granted I didn't do a great job of it, being at work and doing this via mobile aka I was in a hurry; my intent was to further build upon a previous post saying that people had freaked out over the possibility of BBE into Liliana. The chances of that are remote, and I thought I'd be hyperbolic and funny by suggesting that BBE could help Living End, which as some have pointed out, is absurd. I have successfully failed at presenting this point and have instead led other posters to believe I am simple and soft-headed, for which I apologise profusely.
Oh you big teddy bear you are not soft-headed, just another mtgsalvation user like we all!
It's worth noting that I have literally no opposition to the idea of Twin being unbanned. I feel like it'd probably be okay right now, although there's the possibility that some of the cards we've gotten since its banning might make it too good.
I also have no opinion about Twin remaining banned. Just don't care either way.
My biggest issue is that people are still talking about it and making the exact same points, two years later, without adding anything new, and tend to use any mention of Twin as an excuse to jump onto the single issue wonk. All of this is stuff you have said, repeatedly, and we know your opinion. You don't need to keep reminding us.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
as long as land-based combo decks exist, it doesn't matter what value card you unban for the midrange decks. They will still be crushed because lands are hard to interact with in modern outside of the sideboard (sometimes mainboard) blood moon. If you're a midrange deck that can't play blood moon well (grixis, abzan, tokens), then you have a few options:
1. Play another deck
2. Whine on MTGS and be labelled a "vocal minority"
3. Modify your deck into combo (URx - storm, GWx - counters) and ignore the tron lands/valakuts like how they ignore you
More than 1 option can be chosen. I've personally gone with all 3 previously, playing decks that can beat the land-based combo decks while also calling for change (i really like playing interaction outside of blood moon which isn't really interaction anyway), but lately I've dropped option 2 for the most part, since the people who aren't being owned by the land combo decks will label you minority. You just hope someday their main decks will be the ones wiped from feasibility and you can be there ready to label them a vocal minority.
You actually have another option, write off those matches as ones that your archetype of choice will never be favored against and move on. Midrange is in no way entitled to no weaknesses as an archetype, same as the rest of the format. That's just part of Modern, no matter which deck you play, there will be an archetype or sub-archetype that you just fundamentally don't have a good chance against, with no reasonable way to deal with it. Tron loses to faster combo, as a Tron player, I look at some sideboard options, but otherwise write off those games and accept that it's a meta deck. I seriously cannot understand why midrange players feel like they have the right to have a reasonable chance against everything in the format, and no crippling weaknesses, when that is not the case for any other archetype. It really just comes across as entitled and whiny. If you absolutely have to win against everything, and you refuse to play another deck better suited for the decks you see, I would remind you that your sideboard is also a part of your deck. Splash white, play Stony Silence, or play Crumble to Dust. As a Tron player, I assure you, it'll do wonders for your Tron matchup, and my LGS Scapeshift player hates Crumble more than any other card in the game. Midrange works on skill, part of being a good player is knowing strengths, weaknesses, how to adapt, and what to bother adapting to
This person gets it. No matter what you're playing, there are going to be weaknesses to your deck. Sure, I've got great matchups against ETron, Titanshift, and Storm while using GDS, but Affinity typically gives me a hard time. I've got a UB faeries list that's my favorite deck I've ever built, but it folds so hard to aggro it's ridiculous. Mid-range decks are fun, and are typically 'fair', but that doesn't mean they have to be the best decks around. GDS is very good against the field, but make no mistake it's got it's flaws, just like ETron, Titanshift, and Storm do.
1. Play another deck
2. Whine on MTGS and be correctly labelled a "vocal minority"
3. Modify your deck into combo (URx - storm, GWx - counters) and ignore the tron lands/valakuts like how they ignore you
Fixed that for you.
I'm glad other users here addressed your rant as well, and identified the flaws in what you're saying. Not much more needs to be said, except to perhaps poke at the above quote, which was part of a larger ham-fisted attempt at slighting the community as some sort of persecutory entity and you're the wronged, innocent party who "knows better" or something. Well I'm sorry to say that in this instance you'd be incorrect, for reasons highlighted above by other commenters.
I'm glad other users here addressed your rant as well, and identified the flaws in what you're saying. Not much more needs to be said, except to perhaps validate the above quote, which basically exposed this community as some sort of persecutory entity and players whose archetypes don't work in this meta as the wronged, innocent party who "knows better" or something. Well I'm glad to say that in this instance you'd be correct, since as long as our decks are fine we really don't care and calls for changes are invariably just noise to us.
And I am indeed crushing tron presently by playing an entire deck entirely. Haven't cast a cryptic command or tasigur in a long time. Could have gone GDS, but not willing to pay for street wraiths. Baral was a lot cheaper.
This is a state of the meta thread. If you're here to point out that my perspective is wrong, try not to prove me right in the process. Midrange without blood moon IS bad now. And the reason it is bad has led to a host of other problems, such as storm decks (like mine lol) being mostly free from the interactions like discard, removal that would so easily pick it apart in any interactive meta.
Well, so much for trying option 2 again. Fellow midrange players please take note: our opinions are entitled and whiny, go back to playing your un-interactive combo decks.
@Melkor: Crumble to dust costs 4. Tron is live on turn 3, etron typically casts TKS turn 3 or even 2. Yes it'll stop scapeshift, but so will blood moon, a turn earlier. So what was the point of bringing up a hate card that's weaker than the one I mentioned? Because you think I didn't think of it? Since you've called me entitled and whiny, don't be too angry if I call you out for being condescending and oppressive.
I'm glad other users here addressed your rant as well, and identified the flaws in what you're saying. Not much more needs to be said, except to perhaps validate the above quote, which basically exposed this community as some sort of persecutory entity and players whose archetypes don't work in this meta as the wronged, innocent party who "knows better" or something. Well I'm glad to say that in this instance you'd be correct, since as long as our decks are fine we really don't care and calls for changes are invariably just noise to us.
And I am indeed crushing tron presently by playing an entire deck entirely. Haven't cast a cryptic command or tasigur in a long time. Could have gone GDS, but not willing to pay for street wraiths. Baral was a lot cheaper.
This is a state of the meta thread. If you're here to point out that my perspective is wrong, try not to prove me right in the process. Midrange without blood moon IS bad now. And the reason it is bad has led to a host of other problems, such as storm decks (like mine lol) being mostly free from the interactions like discard, removal that would so easily pick it apart in any interactive meta.
Well, so much for trying option 2 again. Fellow midrange players please take note: our opinions are entitled and whiny, go back to playing your un-interactive combo decks.
@Melkor: Crumble to dust costs 4. Tron is live on turn 3, etron typically casts TKS turn 3 or even 2. Yes it'll stop scapeshift, but so will blood moon, a turn earlier. So what was the point of bringing up a hate card that's weaker than the one I mentioned? Because you think I didn't think of it? Since you've called me entitled and whiny, don't be too angry if I call you out for being condescending and oppressive.
I'm going to respectfully disagree that mid-range sans blood moon is bad. Granted that opinion varies depending on what your metric of bad is; are you meaning bad against ETron and Scapeshift, or bad against the field? Again, our views are largely colored by our own experiences, but I've never struggled against ETron or Scapeshift overall. Sometimes ETron slams TKS turn 2 and that feels super bad, and sometimes Scapeshift goes nuts before you have interaction, but those instances are not the majority.
I recently had some folks at my LGS complain that I was using GDS too much. They felt it was unfair to be playing such a high tier deck when they didn't have the resources to match it. Far be it for me to tell them that several people thought their linear combo decks were the epitome of unfair, so I brewed up a UB Faeries list. It's my favorite deck I've made in the 22 years I've been playing magic. It cost, mostly because Snapcaster Mage, but it represents the kind of magic I find the most fun: heavy interaction/disruption, and it plays differently against almost every deck it plays. That being said, CoCo decks and Affinity tend to smash it into dust, but I knew that before I finished building it.
The point of all this is that you can play whatever kind of magic you want to, but you have to temper your expectations. I wouldn't take my faeries deck into a big tournament, because against the field it struggles, despite matching up very well against Storm, Titanshift, and ETron. I'm ok with that, and frankly I don't have any aspirations beyond my LGS, where I can play Modern three times a week against new and old decks.
I'm glad other users here addressed your rant as well, and identified the flaws in what you're saying. Not much more needs to be said, except to perhaps validate the above quote, which basically exposed this community as some sort of persecutory entity and players whose archetypes don't work in this meta as the wronged, innocent party who "knows better" or something. Well I'm glad to say that in this instance you'd be correct, since as long as our decks are fine we really don't care and calls for changes are invariably just noise to us.
And I am indeed crushing tron presently by playing an entire deck entirely. Haven't cast a cryptic command or tasigur in a long time. Could have gone GDS, but not willing to pay for street wraiths. Baral was a lot cheaper.
This is a state of the meta thread. If you're here to point out that my perspective is wrong, try not to prove me right in the process. Midrange without blood moon IS bad now. And the reason it is bad has led to a host of other problems, such as storm decks (like mine lol) being mostly free from the interactions like discard, removal that would so easily pick it apart in any interactive meta.
Well, so much for trying option 2 again. Fellow midrange players please take note: our opinions are entitled and whiny, go back to playing your un-interactive combo decks.
@Melkor: Crumble to dust costs 4. Tron is live on turn 3, etron typically casts TKS turn 3 or even 2. Yes it'll stop scapeshift, but so will blood moon, a turn earlier. So what was the point of bringing up a hate card that's weaker than the one I mentioned? Because you think I didn't think of it? Since you've called me entitled and whiny, don't be too angry if I call you out for being condescending and oppressive.
that's a lot of putting words in people's mouths there.
i can't comment on anything you've said previously, just what is on this thread. You made an attention-seeking type of dig which rang hollow and betrayed a lack of perspective, i called it out. nothing more, nothing less. You initiated the terms of this exchange, not me. If you're making comments in a public place which are misleading due to your own narrow view, be prepared to have people jump on it in an effort to correct and stabilise the discussion. If your response to this effort is to get super-defensive and be like "i'm being persecuted i'm being persecuted" then you can think what you want, but you're the one that's dug this hole for yourself.
i mean think about it for a second. You come on here, saying your only option as a midrange player is to play another deck (that's what your "three choices" amounted to), and then proclaim to anyone listening that "MTGS users" (an undefined group of people you can crassly heap blame on) who feel that the format is in an OK place are somehow all co-conspirators out to persecute you for expressing your opinion or something. Well, your "opinion" wasn't really anything of the sort. It was just whiny hot-air, a non-comment, not helpful and you shouldn't have even bothered putting it out there in a public place where other people want to have genuine discussion.
That's the issue. not some ill-defined greater malignant entity out to get you like a wonky conspiracy or something. People's replies to your comment are sharp and acerbic because that's how you presented yourself to begin with, as an opposition. Basically it's all down to how you're communicating so tl;dr don't begin with "those guys suck and i'm persecuted for my decisions and you will be too waah" lol, communication is everything - engage in a proactive way.
When I said "get labelled a vocal minority", who would feel like they were being called out?
Its quite obviously people who have previously dismissed the concerns of others as whining. I am clearly speaking from experience, and lo and behold the exact same thing is happening again? So by responding in the way you and the 2 others did, aren't you basically invalidating the experiences I've had?
Isolate and destroy is an impressive tactic to employ; I'm quite assured however that I am not alone on "tron is not nice to play against and we want to interact more". More than 1 article has been written by professional players about this, and its a sentiment i've heard on discord and whatsapp quite a number of times. All very anecdotal, I understand, but you know where I'm coming from.
Last but not least. My post wasn't stand alone. I was coming from a point where BBE wouldn't change things much because the lack of BBE isn't what's keeping the pilots who would like it back, down. There was a time snap-kommand loops were impressive and TS into goyf into lily was awesome. The thing that's changed that isn't going to be overcome by such an unban. That was the point of my post and if you're just going to respond to the part where I call out "undefined" people for being persecutory, then you're kind of fitting yourself into the definition.
The format would be a lot better if we had Counterspell and Fact or Fiction. The former we're never going to get because "standard" and "unfun", and the latter I don't see as well because of all the "fixed" versions of the card they've tried over the years. They just seem reluctant to ever bring it back, and it's probably a no-go so long as Gearhulk is in the format. It's a sad day when Glimmer of Genius is one of the better draw spells in the format. Having an actual good control deck would do a lot to decrease the amount of shenanigans. Daze would be interesting, but I think GDS beats up on the unfair decks enough as is. Also, **** Cavern of Souls - that card should not exist.
LOL to anyone who thought WoTC would unban anything.
The format would be a lot better if we had Counterspell and Fact or Fiction. The former we're never going to get because "standard" and "unfun", and the latter I don't see as well because of all the "fixed" versions of the card they've tried over the years. They just seem reluctant to ever bring it back, and it's probably a no-go so long as Gearhulk is in the format. It's a sad day when Glimmer of Genius is one of the better draw spells in the format. Having an actual good control deck would do a lot to decrease the amount of shenanigans. Daze would be interesting, but I think GDS beats up on the unfair decks enough as is. Also, **** Cavern of Souls - that card should not exist.
LOL to anyone who thought WoTC would unban anything.
Well now...your post reminds me of one of the ETron players I encounter at my LGS, except his stance is the complete opposite of yours. However, you both present your arguments in a rather hostile format which makes it difficult to take seriously. So let's go over your points, because I'm trying to understand where you're coming from.
1) Counterspell and FoF in modern seems like overkill. I love blue as a color, but there is no way in hell we'd get both of those cards. The power level of standard would have to be through the roof to allow either one of those in, let alone both. Some players, myself included, love to play draw-go magic, but that's not what standard has been about for a long time.
2) Glimmer of Genius is good in standard, but to call that a good draw spell in modern is laughable.
3) Not certain how you define a good control deck. What's your ideal version, and how would that reduce shenanigans in Modern?
4) Cavern of Souls is pretty much a pillar in any tribal deck, and no tribe save Eldrazi is remotely close to needing the axe that badly. Why does that card grind your gears?
5) No unbans yet, but the fact that they said publicly they're discussing unbans for February is good news. We'll have to see how the Pro Tour goes.
A lot of control players, including to an extent me, dislike Cavern of Souls because "muh interactin' on the stack!" Unfortunately, you can't play that style of Magic any more. You can't jam a deck with counterspells, one win condition, and expect to win.
I'll be honest, what annoys me more than Cavern of Souls is on-cast triggers like on Ulamog, especially since there are not very many good ways to actually interact with them.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
By all means, fall into the psychological trap you currently find yourself in. I harbor no ill will or particular care either way, but just know that this is what's happened.
Regarding BBE, the unban can't come too soon. Stoneforge as well. I'm a little hesitant about jace just because it represents a slightly higher risk factor than the others, so I'm content with the safer unbans happening first.
Anyway enough of that lol.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
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DRS will never, ever, ever be unbanned in modern. We have a better chance of seeing Dig through time, Jace and SFM being unbanned at the same time than a DRS unban
DRS is an aggro, life-gain, graveyard, ramp card rolled into one. It's an outrageous card.
Punishing Fire would invalidate creature aggro. You can't unban it.
No sweat. To clarify, I don't think Modern is really in trouble, it's just that the top decks (for the most part) are really polarizing. I mentioned before that I'm not a fan of Titanshift, but I've seen people that are scared to death of Eldrazi Tron. There are others who think that Storm is the signal of the apocalypse, and that Splinter Twin is the savior Modern needs. Because we have a severe lack of hard data, our own experiences are going to color our perception of the meta. I pilot GDS primarily, and it's a hell of a lot of fun, but even though a lot of people consider it the most 'fair' of the top tier decks, there are those that hate my guts when they sit across the table knowing what's coming. There's a particular Tron player at my LGS who thinks anyone playing blue is the anti-christ, but it just goes to show how much personal experience shapes our perspective.
Lol I hate jund and don't want any of those cards unbanned. You said no cards in jund were unfair, and used that statement to justify BBE. I simply pointed out the error in that statement.
Oh, you wanted a list. Well, Affinity, Death and Taxes, Elves, Merfolk, Counters Company, Humans, Faeries, Soul Sisters, and to a lesser extent Burn (it's also possible that Burn just starts playing it).
Unless you want a swap ban with Grove, Punishing Fire should just stay banned.
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DRS was better, but BBE was only played in jund. The goal was to reduce the power/dominance of Jund while impacting as few decks as possible which is one of the core goals of bans. After the DRS ban Jund was still the most dominant deck and remained tier 1 until Fatal Push was printed so there was no real reason to unban something to strengthen it where the risk that the unban would go too far. Now though you are right that it is just tier 3 and it should be unbanned. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if the only reason it hasn't been unbanned yet is they made such a mess of the Standard list the last year that they are afraid to touch anything in modern lest it fall apart.
I don't think it was an error in his statement. Bloodbraid Elf doesn't currently cascade into anything broken CURRENTLY in Jund. It doesn't mean that either Bloodbraid Elf stays banned or every single possible card that Jund could play gets unbanned. I don't think it's an either/or. Maybe something good even comes out of Jund possibly policing Storm, then Storm (hopefully) won't be the #1 prospect of bannings.
I hate Jund too. It was my mortal enemy in Standard. I've played it fewer times than I can count on 1 hand since its inception and despite having a super inflated win percentage with it in those limited amount of matches, I don't really like playing it. I probably wouldn't play it unless it was hands down the best deck in Modern. But then, I would even consider Burn if that was the case for Burn. For me, there's no reason not to play a Tier 1 deck, unless I'm allergic to winning. Still...I believe that Bloodbraid Elf is fine. I would like to see players run them so I could beat them with decks that don't lose much percentage points vs. Jund if BBE were to be unbanned. cough, cough, Valakut...
*Some people may even wonder, "why am I advocating for the unban of Bloodbraid Elf?" My reasoning is solely this. I want cards unbanned. Bloodbraid Elf is the most harmless in my eyes. If that can be unbanned, maybe something else can. Somewhere down the line if stuff like JTMS, SfM, BBE, and Preordain come back, hopefully I'll get another chance at something like Green Sun's Zenith or Seething Song (or Git Probe again). We have to start somewhere and I realistically believe that WotC may start with BBE. I think they're too chicken***** to start with another card.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)1. Play another deck
2. Whine on MTGS and be labelled a "vocal minority"
3. Modify your deck into combo (URx - storm, GWx - counters) and ignore the tron lands/valakuts like how they ignore you
More than 1 option can be chosen. I've personally gone with all 3 previously, playing decks that can beat the land-based combo decks while also calling for change (i really like playing interaction outside of blood moon which isn't really interaction anyway), but lately I've dropped option 2 for the most part, since the people who aren't being owned by the land combo decks will label you minority. You just hope someday their main decks will be the ones wiped from feasibility and you can be there ready to label them a vocal minority.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I do find your assertion that Affinity would be invalidated amusing, however, as it was Tier 1 while Punishing Fire was in the format (and Zoo was something like Tier 0.5).
As for the others, good ol' Pyroclasm is generally better than Punishing Fire against them, though admittedly Punishing Fire does have more general utility.
Punishing Fire was banned in December 2011. Modern first became a format in June 2011 during the Community Cup. Modern's initial ban list was in June and it was subsequently updated in August and September.
Which brings us back to your point: is your contention that Affinity would be okay because it was viable between October and December of 2011?
Oh yeah. While we're at it, let's pretend that Anger of the Gods is more oppressive than Punishing Grove. Seems reasonable.
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You actually have another option, write off those matches as ones that your archetype of choice will never be favored against and move on. Midrange is in no way entitled to no weaknesses as an archetype, same as the rest of the format. That's just part of Modern, no matter which deck you play, there will be an archetype or sub-archetype that you just fundamentally don't have a good chance against, with no reasonable way to deal with it. Tron loses to faster combo, as a Tron player, I look at some sideboard options, but otherwise write off those games and accept that it's a meta deck. I seriously cannot understand why midrange players feel like they have the right to have a reasonable chance against everything in the format, and no crippling weaknesses, when that is not the case for any other archetype. It really just comes across as entitled and whiny. If you absolutely have to win against everything, and you refuse to play another deck better suited for the decks you see, I would remind you that your sideboard is also a part of your deck. Splash white, play Stony Silence, or play Crumble to Dust. As a Tron player, I assure you, it'll do wonders for your Tron matchup, and my LGS Scapeshift player hates Crumble more than any other card in the game. Midrange works on skill, part of being a good player is knowing strengths, weaknesses, how to adapt, and what to bother adapting to
As a Titanshift player, I have a terrible record against Grixis Shadow because my opponent knows the match up well, and usually goes for a draw that either leads into two turn 3 Shadows or a turn 3 Shadow and an Angler. That is a lot of pressure, especially when they can then sit for the rest of the game holding up Stubs.
Land based combo is annoying if you're playing midrange, but there are ways to fight it - which does involve changing your deck, possibly even to the extent of changing colours. But that's one of the biggest things about Magic; you can't sleeve up the same 75 every year without making changes; you have to adapt to what's going on in the meta. RG Scapeshift as a deck has only really existed for two years, mainly because while Twin was around, it was incredibly terrible; once Twin disappeared, we could drop the blue from RUG Scapeshift and focus on being more all-in.
This statement is exactly why I spent nearly two years complaining about the Twin ban. It was likely the single largest contributing factor to the exponential increase of all-in, linear strategies. So much so that even after multiple other bans (Probe, GGT), it's STILL a problem because no reactive/control/tempo deck can deal with so many different levels of linear degeneracy as efficiently as Twin (and do so without ever holding an oppressive share of the meta).
We all assume nothing will change until after the PT. Hopefully then they will realize how much they have F'd Modern and give us Twin back at that point. Hopefully along with other cards that have no business being banned like BBE and SFM.
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Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Oh you big teddy bear you are not soft-headed, just another mtgsalvation user like we all!
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I also have no opinion about Twin remaining banned. Just don't care either way.
My biggest issue is that people are still talking about it and making the exact same points, two years later, without adding anything new, and tend to use any mention of Twin as an excuse to jump onto the single issue wonk. All of this is stuff you have said, repeatedly, and we know your opinion. You don't need to keep reminding us.
This person gets it. No matter what you're playing, there are going to be weaknesses to your deck. Sure, I've got great matchups against ETron, Titanshift, and Storm while using GDS, but Affinity typically gives me a hard time. I've got a UB faeries list that's my favorite deck I've ever built, but it folds so hard to aggro it's ridiculous. Mid-range decks are fun, and are typically 'fair', but that doesn't mean they have to be the best decks around. GDS is very good against the field, but make no mistake it's got it's flaws, just like ETron, Titanshift, and Storm do.
Fixed that for you.
I'm glad other users here addressed your rant as well, and identified the flaws in what you're saying. Not much more needs to be said, except to perhaps poke at the above quote, which was part of a larger ham-fisted attempt at slighting the community as some sort of persecutory entity and you're the wronged, innocent party who "knows better" or something. Well I'm sorry to say that in this instance you'd be incorrect, for reasons highlighted above by other commenters.
And I am indeed crushing tron presently by playing an entire deck entirely. Haven't cast a cryptic command or tasigur in a long time. Could have gone GDS, but not willing to pay for street wraiths. Baral was a lot cheaper.
This is a state of the meta thread. If you're here to point out that my perspective is wrong, try not to prove me right in the process. Midrange without blood moon IS bad now. And the reason it is bad has led to a host of other problems, such as storm decks (like mine lol) being mostly free from the interactions like discard, removal that would so easily pick it apart in any interactive meta.
Well, so much for trying option 2 again. Fellow midrange players please take note: our opinions are entitled and whiny, go back to playing your un-interactive combo decks.
@Melkor: Crumble to dust costs 4. Tron is live on turn 3, etron typically casts TKS turn 3 or even 2. Yes it'll stop scapeshift, but so will blood moon, a turn earlier. So what was the point of bringing up a hate card that's weaker than the one I mentioned? Because you think I didn't think of it? Since you've called me entitled and whiny, don't be too angry if I call you out for being condescending and oppressive.
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I'm going to respectfully disagree that mid-range sans blood moon is bad. Granted that opinion varies depending on what your metric of bad is; are you meaning bad against ETron and Scapeshift, or bad against the field? Again, our views are largely colored by our own experiences, but I've never struggled against ETron or Scapeshift overall. Sometimes ETron slams TKS turn 2 and that feels super bad, and sometimes Scapeshift goes nuts before you have interaction, but those instances are not the majority.
I recently had some folks at my LGS complain that I was using GDS too much. They felt it was unfair to be playing such a high tier deck when they didn't have the resources to match it. Far be it for me to tell them that several people thought their linear combo decks were the epitome of unfair, so I brewed up a UB Faeries list. It's my favorite deck I've made in the 22 years I've been playing magic. It cost, mostly because Snapcaster Mage, but it represents the kind of magic I find the most fun: heavy interaction/disruption, and it plays differently against almost every deck it plays. That being said, CoCo decks and Affinity tend to smash it into dust, but I knew that before I finished building it.
The point of all this is that you can play whatever kind of magic you want to, but you have to temper your expectations. I wouldn't take my faeries deck into a big tournament, because against the field it struggles, despite matching up very well against Storm, Titanshift, and ETron. I'm ok with that, and frankly I don't have any aspirations beyond my LGS, where I can play Modern three times a week against new and old decks.
that's a lot of putting words in people's mouths there.
i can't comment on anything you've said previously, just what is on this thread. You made an attention-seeking type of dig which rang hollow and betrayed a lack of perspective, i called it out. nothing more, nothing less. You initiated the terms of this exchange, not me. If you're making comments in a public place which are misleading due to your own narrow view, be prepared to have people jump on it in an effort to correct and stabilise the discussion. If your response to this effort is to get super-defensive and be like "i'm being persecuted i'm being persecuted" then you can think what you want, but you're the one that's dug this hole for yourself.
i mean think about it for a second. You come on here, saying your only option as a midrange player is to play another deck (that's what your "three choices" amounted to), and then proclaim to anyone listening that "MTGS users" (an undefined group of people you can crassly heap blame on) who feel that the format is in an OK place are somehow all co-conspirators out to persecute you for expressing your opinion or something. Well, your "opinion" wasn't really anything of the sort. It was just whiny hot-air, a non-comment, not helpful and you shouldn't have even bothered putting it out there in a public place where other people want to have genuine discussion.
That's the issue. not some ill-defined greater malignant entity out to get you like a wonky conspiracy or something. People's replies to your comment are sharp and acerbic because that's how you presented yourself to begin with, as an opposition. Basically it's all down to how you're communicating so tl;dr don't begin with "those guys suck and i'm persecuted for my decisions and you will be too waah" lol, communication is everything - engage in a proactive way.
When I said "get labelled a vocal minority", who would feel like they were being called out?
Its quite obviously people who have previously dismissed the concerns of others as whining. I am clearly speaking from experience, and lo and behold the exact same thing is happening again? So by responding in the way you and the 2 others did, aren't you basically invalidating the experiences I've had?
Isolate and destroy is an impressive tactic to employ; I'm quite assured however that I am not alone on "tron is not nice to play against and we want to interact more". More than 1 article has been written by professional players about this, and its a sentiment i've heard on discord and whatsapp quite a number of times. All very anecdotal, I understand, but you know where I'm coming from.
Last but not least. My post wasn't stand alone. I was coming from a point where BBE wouldn't change things much because the lack of BBE isn't what's keeping the pilots who would like it back, down. There was a time snap-kommand loops were impressive and TS into goyf into lily was awesome. The thing that's changed that isn't going to be overcome by such an unban. That was the point of my post and if you're just going to respond to the part where I call out "undefined" people for being persecutory, then you're kind of fitting yourself into the definition.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
LOL to anyone who thought WoTC would unban anything.
Well now...your post reminds me of one of the ETron players I encounter at my LGS, except his stance is the complete opposite of yours. However, you both present your arguments in a rather hostile format which makes it difficult to take seriously. So let's go over your points, because I'm trying to understand where you're coming from.
1) Counterspell and FoF in modern seems like overkill. I love blue as a color, but there is no way in hell we'd get both of those cards. The power level of standard would have to be through the roof to allow either one of those in, let alone both. Some players, myself included, love to play draw-go magic, but that's not what standard has been about for a long time.
2) Glimmer of Genius is good in standard, but to call that a good draw spell in modern is laughable.
3) Not certain how you define a good control deck. What's your ideal version, and how would that reduce shenanigans in Modern?
4) Cavern of Souls is pretty much a pillar in any tribal deck, and no tribe save Eldrazi is remotely close to needing the axe that badly. Why does that card grind your gears?
5) No unbans yet, but the fact that they said publicly they're discussing unbans for February is good news. We'll have to see how the Pro Tour goes.
I'll be honest, what annoys me more than Cavern of Souls is on-cast triggers like on Ulamog, especially since there are not very many good ways to actually interact with them.
Regarding BBE, the unban can't come too soon. Stoneforge as well. I'm a little hesitant about jace just because it represents a slightly higher risk factor than the others, so I'm content with the safer unbans happening first.
Anyway enough of that lol.