I'm thinking a creature base of 3-4 Delve fatties, 4 Shadow, 3-4 Street Wraith, 4 Snapcaster Mage, and 4 Twin combo creatures. The deck would probably run 2-3 Twin, and have Death's Shadow's cantrip and disruption suite. Is that plausible, or am I worrying for nothing?
That honestly sounds pretty awful. Much like the weird Vengevine + Hollow One + Goryo's Vengeance + Death's Shadow hybrids people have tried out.
If you take a look at Shadow decks, they tend not to play cards that cost more than 3 mana. To fit in Splinter Twin would just make the deck worse
Twin, much like Bloodbraid Elf, is a joke of a ban and should be reversed immediately
I completely agree. That's what Modern is about at the moment. It saddens me though to see one of the main UR Control and interactive players of this site saying "screw interaction".
Or just screw Modern entirely, I'm actually taking a break Nothing is really OP so I don't expect any changes. There's no point in playing a game you don't enjoy anymore though. It's been months, but hopefully the metagame eventually shifts. Maybe then I'll come back.
This is it, what I've been saying, what has led me to even talk about mass bannings. It's not that anything is busted, it's that the format is not fun because of how the best decks are.
Maybe for you?
You're not exactly concerned for the meta, you just want your deck to be good or played.
The fact you felt 2016's modern was just fine because you played suicide bloo is problematic; you're presenting a toxic attitude about the format because the format isn't how you envision it.
As for 2015, I'd gladly take a jund/twin/infect/tron meta over 2016 or 2017, but I'm ok with how things are.
MTGGOLDfish isn't the greatest place for info anymore, but it's meta distribution of decks and archetypes is fantastically diverse and spread out, no deck is encroaching dangerous numbers.
I don't think anything changes tomorrow, but I really really keep hoping for an SFM/BBE unban, along with Twin.
Depending on how storm does, I could see another storm hit. Chalice or Temple ban in the future is likely someday, how soon I'm not sure of. Grixis Shadows top 8 conversation is outrageous, the decks going to hit more top 8s than Twin at this pace.
Just out of curiosity, how has MTGGoldfish adapted to the changes in what decklists are posted? They aren't using the randomly selected lists when generating the meta percentages, are they?
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Decks
Modern: UWUW Control UBRGrixis Shadow URIzzet Phoenix
Just out of curiosity, how has MTGGoldfish adapted to the changes in what decklists are posted? They aren't using the randomly selected lists when generating the meta percentages, are they?
They are used in the same way as MTGO data was previously. It makes the meta percentages skewed and honestly should probably just be gotten rid of.
MTGGOLDfish isn't the greatest place for info anymore, but it's meta distribution of decks and archetypes is fantastically diverse and spread out, no deck is encroaching dangerous numbers.
It is artificially diverse based on the data that is available. Lists represented there are pulled from the daily 5-0 lists, which are purposely skewed by Wizards to choose lists without overlap. We have no idea what the real numbers of any deck are, and it's sad that Wizards likely loves this.
I'm thinking a creature base of 3-4 Delve fatties, 4 Shadow, 3-4 Street Wraith, 4 Snapcaster Mage, and 4 Twin combo creatures. The deck would probably run 2-3 Twin, and have Death's Shadow's cantrip and disruption suite. Is that plausible, or am I worrying for nothing?
If you take a look at Shadow decks, they tend not to play cards that cost more than 3 mana. To fit in Splinter Twin would just make the deck worse
I totally neglected what the Mana curve would look like. Shadow may not be able to run Twin at all without changing so much it would just be worse.
As far as possible bans/unbans tomorrow, I could see a lot of things happening.
Possible bans: Past in Flames (I think this would make Titanshift and E-Tron too good in the meta, at least until another combo deck rises up), Eldrazi Temple (I'd be sad for the Eldrazi players who lose their decks, and Eldrazi doesn't really deserve to be banned), Chalice (I think this is the best ban. It hurts E-Tron, but leaves other Eldrazi and ramp decks intact. It might help the meta adjust to more interactive and interesting decks), Shadow (I think this would be really bad for the meta), Street Wraith (I'd prefer this over Shadow if their goal is to hit that deck, but this also hurts Hollow One decks), or anything else right out of left field.
Unbans: Twin, BBE, or SFM. I think these are all safe (maybe not all at once) and would improve the meta with their presence. I think Twin and SFM would be better for the meta, as Twin or some sort of SFM Taxes deck could fight Big Mana and encourage interactive decks. Those are things I like. I think an unban would be my favourite outcome.
No changes: This is probably more likely than unbans or bans. I do prefer this to bans. I'm enough of an idealist that I'd like to think that Modern will correct itself without a need for bans or a big shake up.
So, here's a question that will probably be completely overcome by discussion on the changes (or lack of) changes on the list soon, but I am curious enough to ask anyway. To anyone who thinks EldraziTron is, it not necessarily too good, at least irritating: Do you think that if they had banned Eye of Ugin instead of Eldrazi Temple, the deck would be less irritating? It does give you free Eldrazi Mimics, but it means no turn 2 Thought-Knot Seer and makes a turn 3 Reality Smasher much harder to pull off, in addition to weakening Chalice of the Void somewhat (as you can't cast it off an Eye of Ugin).
So, here's a question that will probably be completely overcome by discussion on the changes (or lack of) changes on the list soon, but I am curious enough to ask anyway. To anyone who thinks EldraziTron is, it not necessarily too good, at least irritating: Do you think that if they had banned Eye of Ugin instead of Eldrazi Temple, the deck would be less irritating? It does give you free Eldrazi Mimics, but it means no turn 2 Thought-Knot Seer and makes a turn 3 Reality Smasher much harder to pull off, in addition to weakening Chalice of the Void somewhat (as you can't cast it off an Eye of Ugin).
I feel like that question is just harkening back to the very same discussion on why ban Eye of Ugin over Eldrazi Temple that happened post Eldrazi Winter. The same reasons that were explained then still stand now. Basically, Eye of Ugin can "generate" far more mana than the temple can. In addition, it's high variance and mostly just serves to turn turn 4 plays into turn 3 plays, turn 3 plays into turn 2 plays, etc, much like Simian Spirit Guide. The only reason they left the temple in the format is because even though it produces 2x the mana of any land, it is on tribe only and it doesn't create that same high variance that Eye of Ugin is capable of.
Also, going tall strategies already existed in modern before eldrazi were a thing, so having yet another Urza's Power Plant in the format for a specific tribe was probably the better move than allowing for a go wide strategy.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The diversity and numbers look fantastic; just a minority of disgruntled players in this thread, from my perspective.
I agree with a lot of your post, but I highlighted this part in particular, because I definitely want to take the time and separate both of these issues. Diversity of skeletal deck lists are currently great. The playstyle of those decks, however is not. You are currently playing overcosted creatures and spells for less than intended, or playing creatures and spells that are more powerful beyond their mana costs.
That's why most claim Modern is stale. Whether it's Eldrazi Temple, Simian Spirit Guide, Mox Opal, Noble Hierarch or Search for Tomorrow, you are being outraced by Magic's basic resource. Then, to top it all off, you have no tools that could possibly handle 25% of the best turn 1 plays in the format. Whether you believe cards on my mentioned list need to be banned or not, is a different issue all together.
The decks are diverse, but the playstyle is one of the most punitive experiences this format has ever experienced.
The diversity and numbers look fantastic; just a minority of disgruntled players in this thread, from my perspective.
I agree with a lot of your post, but I highlighted this part in particular, because I definitely want to take the time and separate both of these issues. Diversity of skeletal deck lists are currently great. The playstyle of those decks, however is not. You are currently playing overcosted creatures and spells for less than intended, or playing creatures and spells that are more powerful beyond their mana costs.
That's why most claim Modern is stale. Whether it's Eldrazi Temple, Simian Spirit Guide, Mox Opal, Noble Hierarch or Search for Tomorrow, you are being outraced by Magic's basic resource. Then, to top it all off, you have no tools that could possibly handle 25% of the best turn 1 plays in the format. Whether you believe cards on my mentioned list need to be banned or not, is a different issue all together.
The decks are diverse, but the playstyle is one of the most punitive experiences this format has ever experienced.
I don't really disagree with you on that assertion at all.
There's a reason I don't play GBx outside of nostalgia and fun anymore--they're not good, and you're purposely handicapping yourself. I'm still bothered that Jund and Junk are commonly claimed as a pile of the best cards in the format (minus the amazing blue staples). Yet, somehow I don't feel as though GBx is equipped to handle the format whatsoever and is being stretched too thin.
I understand the common boo-hoo response will be given, but as players, we also face the possibility of having to flip a coin and decide on GY hate or Affinity hate.
Why on earth play a fair deck, when Affinity, ETron, Storm, etc---can jam a proactive plan? I'm becoming cynical in that I really dislike combo, and I'm lukewarm towards aggro, which mainly leaves me with interactive decks. Being interactive is just not where you want to be, at least that's how modern has felt since Twins banning.
Grixis Shadow, I believe is a gate keeper as of now, but it's results don't lie---the deck is heading towards a similar premise to Splinter Twins rationale for it's ban...it wins too much. If we discount the MTGO weeklies that Gkorou posts, which I do enjoy reading, I think a shadow deck has posted results in nearly every major paper tournament since Vancouver in 2017.
I do believe more bans will need to come after a chalice/temple ban, if we go that route.
I'm always advocating for some form of BBE/SFM/Twin unban, but I won't hold my breath for WOTC to do that.
Starting to see the argument for a chalice ban but I don't see it happening with storm and shadow doing well.
Storm is kinda problematic but I don't give it much thought; the format has dredge, living end, and to a lesser extent bg/x and shadow decks sooooo I'm usually bringing lots of grave hate to tournaments anyway.
I dont know, unban stuff to help fair decks. I really like stoneforge mystic. You could make something similar to esper tempo deathblade or whatever. Put some lingering souls in there to fight affinity, and discard plus countermagic could make life difficult for storm. V-clique could help against ramp and combo too. Control is still heavier and would probably beat it. Attrition decks should beat it too. An esper deathblade probably still loses to e-tron but maybe e-tron loses to control and that's where the meta gets interesting.
Stoneforge is really strong but she can be bolted or pushed really easily, giving people incentive to play interaction. Not too worried about people hardcasting the batterskull in their hands.
I'll look at more of the sword cards tomorrow. I am worried about fair stoneforge decks cannibalizing each other while not doing enough to stop ramp/combo ect.
It is really funny. The key is in my opinion more interaction cards like dismember and tec edge...but people dont use them. They play decks without interaction and cry about 2 ships passing in the night. Maybe only 1 time, they should try cards we have? But it seems it is more easy only crying for bannings
You think you can change the meta by playing interactive cards? When the etron opponent casts a turn 3 smasher with cavern and you have mana leak, dismember, terminate and cryptic command in your hand give me a call and tell me what a great time you're having and that we should all join u in playing interactive cards.
In the meantime, I'll be playing Baral t2 and hoping they dont have a T2 TKS.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Funny part is, no matter where we stand three hours from now on the format, most people who are unhappy will continue to feel that way.
Who knows, maybe holydiva was right and WOTC will just nuke the format with bans and unbans to satisfy the handful of people who want to play Twin vs GBx for the next year.
Holy Diva is just a minority voice that posts in a thread about modern, threatening to quit and play standard instead or write about how bad things are.
WOTC wouldn't nuke the format like that, at that point, they would scrap the format and create one that makes them money.
I can't see WOTC making a big shakeup now, they'd want to save that just before the pro-tour
We'll probably get no changes and people angry that modern wasn't even acknowledged in the update.
Funny part is, no matter where we stand three hours from now on the format, most people who are unhappy will continue to feel that way.
Who knows, maybe holydiva was right and WOTC will just nuke the format with bans and unbans to satisfy the handful of people who want to play Twin vs GBx for the next year.
If they unban at least one of: Stoneforge, Twin, Bloodbraid I will be happy
If 2 out of 3, I will be ecstatic
If there are no changes I will sigh and move on with my life, probably start to play more standard
That honestly sounds pretty awful. Much like the weird Vengevine + Hollow One + Goryo's Vengeance + Death's Shadow hybrids people have tried out.
If you take a look at Shadow decks, they tend not to play cards that cost more than 3 mana. To fit in Splinter Twin would just make the deck worse
Twin, much like Bloodbraid Elf, is a joke of a ban and should be reversed immediately
Maybe for you?
You're not exactly concerned for the meta, you just want your deck to be good or played.
The fact you felt 2016's modern was just fine because you played suicide bloo is problematic; you're presenting a toxic attitude about the format because the format isn't how you envision it.
As for 2015, I'd gladly take a jund/twin/infect/tron meta over 2016 or 2017, but I'm ok with how things are.
MTGGOLDfish isn't the greatest place for info anymore, but it's meta distribution of decks and archetypes is fantastically diverse and spread out, no deck is encroaching dangerous numbers.
I don't think anything changes tomorrow, but I really really keep hoping for an SFM/BBE unban, along with Twin.
Depending on how storm does, I could see another storm hit. Chalice or Temple ban in the future is likely someday, how soon I'm not sure of. Grixis Shadows top 8 conversation is outrageous, the decks going to hit more top 8s than Twin at this pace.
Modern:
UWUW Control
UBRGrixis Shadow
URIzzet Phoenix
They are used in the same way as MTGO data was previously. It makes the meta percentages skewed and honestly should probably just be gotten rid of.
It is artificially diverse based on the data that is available. Lists represented there are pulled from the daily 5-0 lists, which are purposely skewed by Wizards to choose lists without overlap. We have no idea what the real numbers of any deck are, and it's sad that Wizards likely loves this.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I totally neglected what the Mana curve would look like. Shadow may not be able to run Twin at all without changing so much it would just be worse.
As far as possible bans/unbans tomorrow, I could see a lot of things happening.
Possible bans: Past in Flames (I think this would make Titanshift and E-Tron too good in the meta, at least until another combo deck rises up), Eldrazi Temple (I'd be sad for the Eldrazi players who lose their decks, and Eldrazi doesn't really deserve to be banned), Chalice (I think this is the best ban. It hurts E-Tron, but leaves other Eldrazi and ramp decks intact. It might help the meta adjust to more interactive and interesting decks), Shadow (I think this would be really bad for the meta), Street Wraith (I'd prefer this over Shadow if their goal is to hit that deck, but this also hurts Hollow One decks), or anything else right out of left field.
Unbans: Twin, BBE, or SFM. I think these are all safe (maybe not all at once) and would improve the meta with their presence. I think Twin and SFM would be better for the meta, as Twin or some sort of SFM Taxes deck could fight Big Mana and encourage interactive decks. Those are things I like. I think an unban would be my favourite outcome.
No changes: This is probably more likely than unbans or bans. I do prefer this to bans. I'm enough of an idealist that I'd like to think that Modern will correct itself without a need for bans or a big shake up.
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
I feel like that question is just harkening back to the very same discussion on why ban Eye of Ugin over Eldrazi Temple that happened post Eldrazi Winter. The same reasons that were explained then still stand now. Basically, Eye of Ugin can "generate" far more mana than the temple can. In addition, it's high variance and mostly just serves to turn turn 4 plays into turn 3 plays, turn 3 plays into turn 2 plays, etc, much like Simian Spirit Guide. The only reason they left the temple in the format is because even though it produces 2x the mana of any land, it is on tribe only and it doesn't create that same high variance that Eye of Ugin is capable of.
Also, going tall strategies already existed in modern before eldrazi were a thing, so having yet another Urza's Power Plant in the format for a specific tribe was probably the better move than allowing for a go wide strategy.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I agree with a lot of your post, but I highlighted this part in particular, because I definitely want to take the time and separate both of these issues. Diversity of skeletal deck lists are currently great. The playstyle of those decks, however is not. You are currently playing overcosted creatures and spells for less than intended, or playing creatures and spells that are more powerful beyond their mana costs.
That's why most claim Modern is stale. Whether it's Eldrazi Temple, Simian Spirit Guide, Mox Opal, Noble Hierarch or Search for Tomorrow, you are being outraced by Magic's basic resource. Then, to top it all off, you have no tools that could possibly handle 25% of the best turn 1 plays in the format. Whether you believe cards on my mentioned list need to be banned or not, is a different issue all together.
The decks are diverse, but the playstyle is one of the most punitive experiences this format has ever experienced.
I don't really disagree with you on that assertion at all.
There's a reason I don't play GBx outside of nostalgia and fun anymore--they're not good, and you're purposely handicapping yourself. I'm still bothered that Jund and Junk are commonly claimed as a pile of the best cards in the format (minus the amazing blue staples). Yet, somehow I don't feel as though GBx is equipped to handle the format whatsoever and is being stretched too thin.
I understand the common boo-hoo response will be given, but as players, we also face the possibility of having to flip a coin and decide on GY hate or Affinity hate.
Why on earth play a fair deck, when Affinity, ETron, Storm, etc---can jam a proactive plan? I'm becoming cynical in that I really dislike combo, and I'm lukewarm towards aggro, which mainly leaves me with interactive decks. Being interactive is just not where you want to be, at least that's how modern has felt since Twins banning.
Grixis Shadow, I believe is a gate keeper as of now, but it's results don't lie---the deck is heading towards a similar premise to Splinter Twins rationale for it's ban...it wins too much. If we discount the MTGO weeklies that Gkorou posts, which I do enjoy reading, I think a shadow deck has posted results in nearly every major paper tournament since Vancouver in 2017.
I do believe more bans will need to come after a chalice/temple ban, if we go that route.
I'm always advocating for some form of BBE/SFM/Twin unban, but I won't hold my breath for WOTC to do that.
Storm is kinda problematic but I don't give it much thought; the format has dredge, living end, and to a lesser extent bg/x and shadow decks sooooo I'm usually bringing lots of grave hate to tournaments anyway.
I dont know, unban stuff to help fair decks. I really like stoneforge mystic. You could make something similar to esper tempo deathblade or whatever. Put some lingering souls in there to fight affinity, and discard plus countermagic could make life difficult for storm. V-clique could help against ramp and combo too. Control is still heavier and would probably beat it. Attrition decks should beat it too. An esper deathblade probably still loses to e-tron but maybe e-tron loses to control and that's where the meta gets interesting.
or forget stoneforge and just unban twin.
You think you can change the meta by playing interactive cards? When the etron opponent casts a turn 3 smasher with cavern and you have mana leak, dismember, terminate and cryptic command in your hand give me a call and tell me what a great time you're having and that we should all join u in playing interactive cards.
In the meantime, I'll be playing Baral t2 and hoping they dont have a T2 TKS.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I won't change my final bet: - chalice - past in flames.
Edit: second bet is: +BBE + SFM - Past in flames
How does etron play chalice for 2 on turn 2? because thats the number u want on a chalice to beat storm. chalice on 1 doesn't hit the important cards.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Death shadow is legacy efficient, no one should ever be sad to see a chalice on them
Burn is is composed of 40 something cards that do almost the same thing that involve little interaction
A chalice on 1 against jeskai or uw control is the real feel bad
I wonder if jeskai geist can continue to do well in this meta
Who knows, maybe holydiva was right and WOTC will just nuke the format with bans and unbans to satisfy the handful of people who want to play Twin vs GBx for the next year.
WOTC wouldn't nuke the format like that, at that point, they would scrap the format and create one that makes them money.
I can't see WOTC making a big shakeup now, they'd want to save that just before the pro-tour
We'll probably get no changes and people angry that modern wasn't even acknowledged in the update.
If they unban at least one of: Stoneforge, Twin, Bloodbraid I will be happy
If 2 out of 3, I will be ecstatic
If there are no changes I will sigh and move on with my life, probably start to play more standard
Standard, modern and draft are where WOTC wants it, it'll probably be a vintage change that no one cares about
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Should be within a half hour. Someone generally finds the link to the announcement a little earlier, though.
Affinity
Death & Taxes
Mardu Nahiri
Forcing people to merge with twitch is stupid