Looks like a reasonable spread to me. We have to have a 'best' deck or two in any given tournament, and it can often be swung by a couple of teams settling on a specific deck (then doing well because they are amazing players). It wouldn't surprise me if some of the best players in the room were on those first few decks on the list. That can sway data significantly.
Anyway if this is where we're at, so to speak, with a general slice of the modern meta right now, that seems fine to me. All those decks are beatable, and having a clear idea of what decks to target sith sideboards is a good thing
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
After watching Eldrazi Tron play out today on camera, I think the Urzatron need to go. Turn 3 Karn is just so gross
Let's leave 7+ mana cards in EDH where they belong
So do you apply this to all things that are 'gross' on t3, or just Tron? Triple burn spell for 9 damage is gross, as is giant DS, or more than one. Affinity can vomit their hand in the first two turns. Modern is a format of ridiculous things, but saying that a t3 card that doesn't win on the spot, or EVEN help bring them to 0, it's ridiculous. Especially considering that the bulk of the deck has to be devoted to those lands and getting them out. And then you have to have Karn in hand, and not have had to use mana to GET that third land, or to draw Karn, t3 Karn is the main idea of the deck, but it's a god hand. If yourdeck doesn't have a gross ideal hand, it really has no place in the format. And pre-BFZ, those lands were never a problem. It is the Eldrazi and their sol land. I advocated Temple being banned before, my position hasn't changed. Ban it, then smack the person who suggested Eldrazi under 6cmc.
Actually, it isn't. We're talking EldraziTron, remember. Karn is there sort of as an afterthought; they generally only play 2 copies, after all. That's what made that comment all the goofier, they weren't even complaining about Gx Tron (which runs enough Karns and tutors for it to be a plausible occurrence, even if it does still only happen a minority of the time), but EldraziTron, which has a lot of trouble pulling off a turn 3 Karn. The "main idea" of that deck is to pull off something like turn 2 Thought-Knot Seer or turn 2 Chalice of the Void, not a turn 3 Karn.
After watching Eldrazi Tron play out today on camera, I think the Urzatron need to go. Turn 3 Karn is just so gross
Let's leave 7+ mana cards in EDH where they belong
So do you apply this to all things that are 'gross' on t3, or just Tron? Triple burn spell for 9 damage is gross, as is giant DS, or more than one. Affinity can vomit their hand in the first two turns. Modern is a format of ridiculous things, but saying that a t3 card that doesn't win on the spot, or EVEN help bring them to 0, it's ridiculous. Especially considering that the bulk of the deck has to be devoted to those lands and getting them out. And then you have to have Karn in hand, and not have had to use mana to GET that third land, or to draw Karn, t3 Karn is the main idea of the deck, but it's a god hand. If yourdeck doesn't have a gross ideal hand, it really has no place in the format. And pre-BFZ, those lands were never a problem. It is the Eldrazi and their sol land. I advocated Temple being banned before, my position hasn't changed. Ban it, then smack the person who suggested Eldrazi under 6cmc.
Actually, it isn't. We're talking EldraziTron, remember. Karn is there sort of as an afterthought; they generally only play 2 copies, after all. That's what made that comment all the goofier, they weren't even complaining about Gx Tron (which runs enough Karns and tutors for it to be a plausible occurrence, even if it does still only happen a minority of the time), but EldraziTron, which has a lot of trouble pulling off a turn 3 Karn. The "main idea" of that deck is to pull off something like turn 2 Thought-Knot Seer or turn 2 Chalice of the Void, not a turn 3 Karn.
Oh, crossed wires there. I was talking about classic Gx Tron, which is definitely trying to get Karn as quick as possible, not the awful, awful new one. the one that doesn't disgust me. Eldrazi Tronhas a midrange game, which i don't like. In my mind, if you are laying the Tron lands, it's supposed to be go big or go home
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
That's mostly a few SCG grinders liking Jeskai for emotional reasons more than anything. Even Harlan Firer was saying the other day he doesn't win much with it but he has fun.
That's disappointing. The format is much better off with Jeskai as one of the more popular decks. Especially with the Geist version being able to put up a quick clock against Big Mana. Jeskai actually looks very well positioned. I'm sure it's hard to play well though.
On the bright side, Jeskai seems to have picked up a bit on MTGO. It might bode well for the format.
There is also a lot more GBx in that metagame than I would have expected. They don't post lists for day 2, do they? I'd love to know what proportion of Jund decks are on Blood Moon.
That's mostly a few SCG grinders liking Jeskai for emotional reasons more than anything. Even Harlan Firer was saying the other day he doesn't win much with it but he has fun.
They're probably like me and playing it because no other deck looks appealing or fun. Some people just have a strong attachment to SnapBolt, whether it's a good deck or not. The Geist/Queller builds are quirky and fun, but are about as "good" as old Delver decks (mid/high Tier 2 decks at best, usually has to fight uphill battles for wins, very few (if any) slam dunk matchups). Stubborn players stick to their stubborn ways a lot of the time; especially on the SCG Tour.
For a field with all that Eldrazi Tron there sure are a ton of them in the top 8 am i right guys? I guess it is unbeatable after all. End sarcasm
I don't think anyone at this point is saying any one deck is oppressive or too good (even when referring to Eldrazi). What I believe people are saying is that the toxic makeup of the top decks and the type of gameplay promoted BY decks like Eldrazi (and Storm and Titanshift and Affinity, etc) create wildly swingy games and matchups that rely more on variance and draws than it does skill.
What is our Top 8? Storm, Storm, Affinity, Affinity, Ponza, Merfolk, GDS, StripMine Company.
Linear combo, linear combo, linear aggro, linear aggro, linear land destruction, linear aggro, value creatures with disruption, value creatures with prison elements.
Yes, looking strictly at deck titles, this Top 8 is "diverse." Is it really diverse on archetypes? Is it really "healthy" or "good" though? Are these the kinds of decks we want at the top?
For a field with all that Eldrazi Tron there sure are a ton of them in the top 8 am i right guys? I guess it is unbeatable after all. End sarcasm
After the Top8 announcement I was literally about to post here, "Remember folks, just because we have a single event with diverse decks doesn't mean Modern is necessarily in a perfect spot." I stopped myself because I thought we'd all realize that. Thanks for showing me I was wrong.
SCG events are usually pretty meta'd against themselves, where people will come in knowing there's going to be a good amount of the top deck, so we end up with these unusual/bastardized lists at the top which normally wouldn't be representative. *cough cough* Ponza *cough cough*
Think back to the Living End win. It wasn't because Living End was top tier, it was because everyone showed up without any grave hate.
For a field with all that Eldrazi Tron there sure are a ton of them in the top 8 am i right guys? I guess it is unbeatable after all. End sarcasm
After the Top8 announcement I was literally about to post here, "Remember folks, just because we have a single event with diverse decks doesn't mean Modern is necessarily in a perfect spot." I stopped myself because I thought we'd all realize that. Thanks for showing me I was wrong.
SCG events are usually pretty meta'd against themselves, where people will come in knowing there's going to be a good amount of the top deck, so we end up with these unusual/bastardized lists at the top which normally wouldn't be representative. *cough cough* Ponza *cough cough*
Think back to the Living End win. It wasn't because Living End was top tier, it was because everyone showed up without any grave hate.
Why? He's completely right.
Jog my memory, was ETron in the last top 8 tournament?
I recall zero top 8 Etron decks in the triple GP
Etron is on camera a lot, it's results aren't obscene
In fact, we've seen Storm, Affinity and Grixis overwhelmingly in the top 8
For a field with all that Eldrazi Tron there sure are a ton of them in the top 8 am i right guys? I guess it is unbeatable after all. End sarcasm
After the Top8 announcement I was literally about to post here, "Remember folks, just because we have a single event with diverse decks doesn't mean Modern is necessarily in a perfect spot." I stopped myself because I thought we'd all realize that. Thanks for showing me I was wrong.
SCG events are usually pretty meta'd against themselves, where people will come in knowing there's going to be a good amount of the top deck, so we end up with these unusual/bastardized lists at the top which normally wouldn't be representative. *cough cough* Ponza *cough cough*
Think back to the Living End win. It wasn't because Living End was top tier, it was because everyone showed up without any grave hate.
Why? He's completely right.
Jog my memory, was ETron in the last top 8 tournament?
I recall zero top 8 Etron decks in the triple GP
Etron is on camera a lot, it's results aren't obscene
In fact, we've seen Storm, Affinity and Grixis overwhelmingly in the top 8
Do people really think that only Tier 0 decks make it to top 8s? There were 15 Etron in Day 2, where they then had to compete with the rest of Day 2, which needed to have good ETron matchups to even make it to Day 2. As idSurge says, the decks that make the conversion are the ones that can handle the decks that are the most oppressive. Just because ETron doesn't make an appearance in this top 8 doesn't mean it's largely impacted those decks that did make it.
Being oppressive is not equivalent to 7 out of 8 Top 8 spots. It means the mere possibility that you might have to face it impacts how the rest of the format behaves. If not for ETron, we wouldn't see the rush to linear decks. ETron de-incentivizes the mid-range decks that could handle those fast, linear decks.
Because...(spoilers) those are the decks that beat ETron.
Thats Modern, you play ETron, or the decks that beat ETron.
If not for some bans/unbans on Monday, its time for me to pack up or sell, or both. This tier 1 is zzz.
I don't agree with this at all
Grixis Shadow saw an enormous amount of hate from the meta, and it was still averaging 1 to 2 players in the top 8 of nearly every paper tournament
So, you're telling me with the mass amount of people on Etron, they can't average 1 or 2 in these paper tournaments because---the hate is too strong? I don't think there was as much hate for Etron as Grixis Death Shadow.
This doesn't make sense. If enough people play this deck in this many tournaments, and it's as powerful as you claim, it will propel enough players into placing.
You can declare you dislike for the top decks, but your argument isn't factual.
Storm has really been topping tournaments
And despite Shadows drop off, it's still averaging 1 deck in a top 8. This scenario was literally what led to Splinter Twins banning.
Etron is a top deck for sure, but it has not placed well enough to warrant a banning.
It's been like this for months idSurge. I think some people really expected some of those mediocre tier 2 decks that popped up here and there to be something more than mediocre tier 2 decks.
Which brings us to the crux of the question, how to fix this? Assuming bans are a possibility (they might not):
- You 100% can't touch GDS, that would make Storm crush the format
- You can't really touch Storm, which is what keeps Titanshift down, mostly
- You can't touch Affinity, which keeps E-Tron and possibly Titanshift down
- You can't touch Titanshift, which keeps E Tron down (citation needed)
- You can't touch E Tron, which... well I don't know what E Tron does right now
So you know where this is going.
I know, thats why my time here has dropped considerably, and I havent played even on MTGO in...a long time.
You ban Temple, and you unban Twin.
Thats what you start with.
If people like this over a Twin/Jund meta, then we simply agree to disagree, because any meta with ETron, or even Tron, as a Tier 1 deck is disgusting to me.
We need unbans not bans. People take it too personal sometimes it seems. They want things banned because they don't like it, sigh.
Eldrazi Temple is a good card but a turn 2 TKS is not nearly as obnoxious as a turn 3 Karn into a bunch of non-sense. Oh, we also have the occasional "oops i win" by dropping a Chalice on turn 2. Even so, i don't think anything from this stupid deck should be banned. IF it ever gets oppressive, the logical step would be to nerf the deck's ability to fight aggro and protect their fatties by banning Chalice.
At this point, SFM and BBE are pretty safe. And even if SFM gets too good somehow, banning Batterskull wouldn't cost much to the format as the only deck consistently playing it is Etron. All other cards carry a bigger risk, imo. Even twin.
There's a possibility that the only thing JTMS would break is my wallet, but who knows.
Because...(spoilers) those are the decks that beat ETron.
Thats Modern, you play ETron, or the decks that beat ETron.
If not for some bans/unbans on Monday, its time for me to pack up or sell, or both. This tier 1 is zzz.
Enh... even if nothing happens this time, I would suggest at least waiting until the Modern Pro Tour before fully quitting, which is probably when they're most likely to shift something.
I want to express my opinions and some thoughts on this very interesting conversation going on here.
Firstly on the topic of bans. Bans should first and foremost be to weaken decks not destroy them or totally neuter them.
This is the mistake made with the twin ban. Why not just ban exarch? or the pestermite? these cards are not played elsewhere so they have no effect on any deck. Why attack the heart of the deck and not just a tool of it?
This leads to the temple vs chalice debate. Banning temple will mostly neuter the deck. I know this is for a fact because I have attempted to play the deck without the temples and it simply does not work.
On the flip side banning chalice does not kill the deck nor does it severely neuter it. It does however weaken it. I am on board that a turn two TKS is backbreaking however this doesnt happen very often (especially when the deck is sometimes so preoccupied with fetching lands the first few turns) nor is it something decks cant handle especially when fatal push, tasigur, angler, master of etherium, path to exile, and now walk the plank are abundant in the format. It is not a game ender. However play a chalice the turn after TKS is played and you can literally win with just TKS and a reality smasher turn 4 alone.
I play E-tron.. without the chalice.
For a number of reasons. It is a very obnoxious card, it completely ruins other decks chances of any interaction or ability to stay in the game, and is just not fun for my opponent or for me. I enjoy interactions, decisions, and good matches. A chaliceless E tron deck provides all of that. I highly recommend those of you that believe temple is the problem to play E-tron without the chalice or to play against it when it does not have chalice. The deck is more fair, it is not as strong, it is not as oppressive, and it actually puts up a fun, interactive and interesting match.
i will refer to early and mid 2016 eldrazi tron lists. Chalice was a sideboard card in the deck and notice it did not place as high as it does when it began using them in the mainboard. This is especially interesting because eldrazi tron was not even considered tier 1 until chalice was made a main board staple.
And another interesting note.. even on mtgsalvations very own eldrazi tron thread. You can find exactly where the community starts to consider eldrazi tron tier 1 and if i remember correctly it coincides perfectly with the first few MTGO 5-0 with a mainboard chalice decklists appearing. Though my memory is fuzzy I am pretty sure of this.
Secondly, chalice not only ruins your opponents mainboard strats, it ruins their sideboard strats too countering ceremonious rejection, oxidize/natural state, path to exile, fatal push, thought seize, ancient grudge flashbacks.. so then how do expect our opponent to deal with this artifact? it counters the cards some sideboard to deal with artifacts and if spent on the chalice what will they use on the wurmcoils? the expedition maps? the collars? Those of you who say that you can sideboard for chalice. This is true however chalice has the power to lock you out early and mid game nullifying any sideboard you have. I have done this. turn two chalice for 1 and turn 3 chalice for 2. Though my opponent didnt give up. I won on the spot. and this is not uncommon.
How many of you have played against Etron and said to yourself "If chalice wasnt here i could take care of this reality smasher".. i know ive said that a few times when playing against it. Paying no mind to the temple...
This, in my opinion is reason enough to uphold the argument that chalice deserves the ban more than temple. And as i mentioned above we want to weaken not kill decks. Temple ban kills the deck, chalice ban weakens. This is the second reason as to why chalice is a better candidate out of this deck.
Now I dont think anything should be banned except for oppressive non interactive cards so naturally a chalice ban is more logical to me.
Eldrazi tron has many ways of making big plays and with chalice gives you the ability to make big plays AND play the locking game. This is the problem. It should not be able to do both because it does the first well enough.
The second thing i wasnted to ask is
I have been feeling that a birthing pod unban wouldnt be all that bad in this meta. We have some seriously strong decks as is. Would a birthing pod unban be all that bad? (though ive seen it played I didnt really play much during those days so I dont know how meta warping birthing pod decks were)
Any opinions on my thoughts are welcome Id like to hear what people have to say about this in greater detail than has been previously posted.
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Modern RUAffinityUR GMono Green StompyG CEldrazi TronC URWJeskai GeistWRU WRBoros BurnRW BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
Dismember and terminate are hardly any trouble for eldrazi tron and funny enough the decks that play those cards fold to e-tron... so im not sure what your point here was.
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Modern RUAffinityUR GMono Green StompyG CEldrazi TronC URWJeskai GeistWRU WRBoros BurnRW BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
Honestly, I didn't play Pod, so my opinion is kind of worthless. People say it was busted, I believe them. But yeah it doesn't look like it's too powerful for Modern or anything.
Pod is simply too good. Since it was banned, some damn good Pod cards have been printed as well (e.g. Rallier) that would make it even worse. Granted, we have Kcommand now, but more often than not it'll beat the Kcommand decks just through out-attritioning them.
People remember Delver-TC being the best deck during its time, but Pod was actually the best deck at something like 22-25% during that time. Plus if you go back and look at Day 2 rates, conversion %, etc. Pod was absurd.
I started playing storm because it could beat etron. I'm serious.
Before storm i was dying to tron all day everyday trying to midrange (lol), kill with elves (sometimes i'd make it), and tempo (delver). But tron crushes all these things, so why try?
Nobody wants to interact with me, so screw that. I won't interact either. Let's see whose boat sails faster in the night.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I am a bit confused with all the approaches in this thread. People say 1 event is not indicative and says nothing. Sure, it doesn't say much on its own, but 1) we always take things in context and 2) there is merit in analyzing each individual tournament as well.
The fact of the matter is that while ETron was the most popular deck in day 2 (15 copies) had the WORST conversion rate in both top 8 (0 copies) and top 32 (1 copy). If ETron was tier 0.5 there would be no chance for such a low conversion rate. We don't know how many ETron decks were day 1 but they definitely did well on the first day of the tournament but not the second.
To me that says several things. Firstly, that in a very wide format as is day 1 of an SCG open, with players of literally every level, ETron can do well. It is a deck that prays on several brews as well as on players of lower skill tiers.
At the same time, it is a deck with low risk high reward. Often you just play big dumb dudes and you win. The combination of the low skill floor of the deck and the fact that it prays on unprepared opponents gives it a huge boost on day 1.
Second, the deck can clearly be hated out. Obviously this is the case for every deck, but not when a deck is oppressive. Eldrazi decks during Eldrazi winters couldn't be hated out. There would be 0 chance of no eldrazi decks making into top 8 during eldrazi winter. Eldrazi Tron however now almost missed top 32 altogether. Therefore it can be hated out.
Thirdly, it's not like one or two decks prayed on it and converted on top 32 with 5-6 copies each. On the contrary, top 32 was quite diverse, with control decks, junds, combo, normal tron, ponza, affinity etc. This shows that a meta with ETron in it has room with a variety of decks.
Concluding, this event (specifically) showed that it is possible to hate out ETron even if it comes in large numbers. Is that the case in general? I say probably, we see it happening in GPs and in competitive leagues. Is ETron an annoying deck to play against? Well, I guess that's a personal thing. I hate playing against it but I am a control player.
Does temple deserve a ban? Maybe, depending on the justification. However, in terms of meta percentages and results, a temple ban can't be supported right now.
Looks like a reasonable spread to me. We have to have a 'best' deck or two in any given tournament, and it can often be swung by a couple of teams settling on a specific deck (then doing well because they are amazing players). It wouldn't surprise me if some of the best players in the room were on those first few decks on the list. That can sway data significantly.
Anyway if this is where we're at, so to speak, with a general slice of the modern meta right now, that seems fine to me. All those decks are beatable, and having a clear idea of what decks to target sith sideboards is a good thing
Jeskai's popularity really shot up, eh? I just bought the pieces for it (since I sold it all off a year ago)
I'm really surprised how much Grixis Shadow has fallen from grace.
Oh, crossed wires there. I was talking about classic Gx Tron, which is definitely trying to get Karn as quick as possible, not the awful, awful new one. the one that doesn't disgust me. Eldrazi Tronhas a midrange game, which i don't like. In my mind, if you are laying the Tron lands, it's supposed to be go big or go home
That's disappointing. The format is much better off with Jeskai as one of the more popular decks. Especially with the Geist version being able to put up a quick clock against Big Mana. Jeskai actually looks very well positioned. I'm sure it's hard to play well though.
On the bright side, Jeskai seems to have picked up a bit on MTGO. It might bode well for the format.
There is also a lot more GBx in that metagame than I would have expected. They don't post lists for day 2, do they? I'd love to know what proportion of Jund decks are on Blood Moon.
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
They're probably like me and playing it because no other deck looks appealing or fun. Some people just have a strong attachment to SnapBolt, whether it's a good deck or not. The Geist/Queller builds are quirky and fun, but are about as "good" as old Delver decks (mid/high Tier 2 decks at best, usually has to fight uphill battles for wins, very few (if any) slam dunk matchups). Stubborn players stick to their stubborn ways a lot of the time; especially on the SCG Tour.
Outside of Eldrazi Winter, diversity of Top 8s in just about every paper event in Modern's history have been robust and varied.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
RG BBE Ponza
UX Eldrazi Tron
UR Jace Breach
RG BBE Ponza
UX Eldrazi Tron
UR Jace Breach
I don't think anyone at this point is saying any one deck is oppressive or too good (even when referring to Eldrazi). What I believe people are saying is that the toxic makeup of the top decks and the type of gameplay promoted BY decks like Eldrazi (and Storm and Titanshift and Affinity, etc) create wildly swingy games and matchups that rely more on variance and draws than it does skill.
What is our Top 8? Storm, Storm, Affinity, Affinity, Ponza, Merfolk, GDS, StripMine Company.
Linear combo, linear combo, linear aggro, linear aggro, linear land destruction, linear aggro, value creatures with disruption, value creatures with prison elements.
Yes, looking strictly at deck titles, this Top 8 is "diverse." Is it really diverse on archetypes? Is it really "healthy" or "good" though? Are these the kinds of decks we want at the top?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
After the Top8 announcement I was literally about to post here, "Remember folks, just because we have a single event with diverse decks doesn't mean Modern is necessarily in a perfect spot." I stopped myself because I thought we'd all realize that. Thanks for showing me I was wrong.
SCG events are usually pretty meta'd against themselves, where people will come in knowing there's going to be a good amount of the top deck, so we end up with these unusual/bastardized lists at the top which normally wouldn't be representative. *cough cough* Ponza *cough cough*
Think back to the Living End win. It wasn't because Living End was top tier, it was because everyone showed up without any grave hate.
Why? He's completely right.
Jog my memory, was ETron in the last top 8 tournament?
I recall zero top 8 Etron decks in the triple GP
Etron is on camera a lot, it's results aren't obscene
In fact, we've seen Storm, Affinity and Grixis overwhelmingly in the top 8
Thats Modern, you play ETron, or the decks that beat ETron.
If not for some bans/unbans on Monday, its time for me to pack up or sell, or both. This tier 1 is zzz.
Spirits
Do people really think that only Tier 0 decks make it to top 8s? There were 15 Etron in Day 2, where they then had to compete with the rest of Day 2, which needed to have good ETron matchups to even make it to Day 2. As idSurge says, the decks that make the conversion are the ones that can handle the decks that are the most oppressive. Just because ETron doesn't make an appearance in this top 8 doesn't mean it's largely impacted those decks that did make it.
Being oppressive is not equivalent to 7 out of 8 Top 8 spots. It means the mere possibility that you might have to face it impacts how the rest of the format behaves. If not for ETron, we wouldn't see the rush to linear decks. ETron de-incentivizes the mid-range decks that could handle those fast, linear decks.
I don't agree with this at all
Grixis Shadow saw an enormous amount of hate from the meta, and it was still averaging 1 to 2 players in the top 8 of nearly every paper tournament
So, you're telling me with the mass amount of people on Etron, they can't average 1 or 2 in these paper tournaments because---the hate is too strong? I don't think there was as much hate for Etron as Grixis Death Shadow.
This doesn't make sense. If enough people play this deck in this many tournaments, and it's as powerful as you claim, it will propel enough players into placing.
You can declare you dislike for the top decks, but your argument isn't factual.
Storm has really been topping tournaments
And despite Shadows drop off, it's still averaging 1 deck in a top 8. This scenario was literally what led to Splinter Twins banning.
Etron is a top deck for sure, but it has not placed well enough to warrant a banning.
I know, thats why my time here has dropped considerably, and I havent played even on MTGO in...a long time.
You ban Temple, and you unban Twin.
Thats what you start with.
If people like this over a Twin/Jund meta, then we simply agree to disagree, because any meta with ETron, or even Tron, as a Tier 1 deck is disgusting to me.
100% biased, but at least I'm honest.
Spirits
Eldrazi Temple is a good card but a turn 2 TKS is not nearly as obnoxious as a turn 3 Karn into a bunch of non-sense. Oh, we also have the occasional "oops i win" by dropping a Chalice on turn 2. Even so, i don't think anything from this stupid deck should be banned. IF it ever gets oppressive, the logical step would be to nerf the deck's ability to fight aggro and protect their fatties by banning Chalice.
At this point, SFM and BBE are pretty safe. And even if SFM gets too good somehow, banning Batterskull wouldn't cost much to the format as the only deck consistently playing it is Etron. All other cards carry a bigger risk, imo. Even twin.
There's a possibility that the only thing JTMS would break is my wallet, but who knows.
RUAffinityUR
GMono Green StompyG
CEldrazi TronC
URWJeskai GeistWRU
WRBoros BurnRW
BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
Firstly on the topic of bans. Bans should first and foremost be to weaken decks not destroy them or totally neuter them.
This is the mistake made with the twin ban. Why not just ban exarch? or the pestermite? these cards are not played elsewhere so they have no effect on any deck. Why attack the heart of the deck and not just a tool of it?
This leads to the temple vs chalice debate. Banning temple will mostly neuter the deck. I know this is for a fact because I have attempted to play the deck without the temples and it simply does not work.
On the flip side banning chalice does not kill the deck nor does it severely neuter it. It does however weaken it. I am on board that a turn two TKS is backbreaking however this doesnt happen very often (especially when the deck is sometimes so preoccupied with fetching lands the first few turns) nor is it something decks cant handle especially when fatal push, tasigur, angler, master of etherium, path to exile, and now walk the plank are abundant in the format. It is not a game ender. However play a chalice the turn after TKS is played and you can literally win with just TKS and a reality smasher turn 4 alone.
I play E-tron.. without the chalice.
For a number of reasons. It is a very obnoxious card, it completely ruins other decks chances of any interaction or ability to stay in the game, and is just not fun for my opponent or for me. I enjoy interactions, decisions, and good matches. A chaliceless E tron deck provides all of that. I highly recommend those of you that believe temple is the problem to play E-tron without the chalice or to play against it when it does not have chalice. The deck is more fair, it is not as strong, it is not as oppressive, and it actually puts up a fun, interactive and interesting match.
i will refer to early and mid 2016 eldrazi tron lists. Chalice was a sideboard card in the deck and notice it did not place as high as it does when it began using them in the mainboard. This is especially interesting because eldrazi tron was not even considered tier 1 until chalice was made a main board staple.
And another interesting note.. even on mtgsalvations very own eldrazi tron thread. You can find exactly where the community starts to consider eldrazi tron tier 1 and if i remember correctly it coincides perfectly with the first few MTGO 5-0 with a mainboard chalice decklists appearing. Though my memory is fuzzy I am pretty sure of this.
Secondly, chalice not only ruins your opponents mainboard strats, it ruins their sideboard strats too countering ceremonious rejection, oxidize/natural state, path to exile, fatal push, thought seize, ancient grudge flashbacks.. so then how do expect our opponent to deal with this artifact? it counters the cards some sideboard to deal with artifacts and if spent on the chalice what will they use on the wurmcoils? the expedition maps? the collars? Those of you who say that you can sideboard for chalice. This is true however chalice has the power to lock you out early and mid game nullifying any sideboard you have. I have done this. turn two chalice for 1 and turn 3 chalice for 2. Though my opponent didnt give up. I won on the spot. and this is not uncommon.
How many of you have played against Etron and said to yourself "If chalice wasnt here i could take care of this reality smasher".. i know ive said that a few times when playing against it. Paying no mind to the temple...
This, in my opinion is reason enough to uphold the argument that chalice deserves the ban more than temple. And as i mentioned above we want to weaken not kill decks. Temple ban kills the deck, chalice ban weakens. This is the second reason as to why chalice is a better candidate out of this deck.
Now I dont think anything should be banned except for oppressive non interactive cards so naturally a chalice ban is more logical to me.
Eldrazi tron has many ways of making big plays and with chalice gives you the ability to make big plays AND play the locking game. This is the problem. It should not be able to do both because it does the first well enough.
The second thing i wasnted to ask is
I have been feeling that a birthing pod unban wouldnt be all that bad in this meta. We have some seriously strong decks as is. Would a birthing pod unban be all that bad? (though ive seen it played I didnt really play much during those days so I dont know how meta warping birthing pod decks were)
Any opinions on my thoughts are welcome Id like to hear what people have to say about this in greater detail than has been previously posted.
RUAffinityUR
GMono Green StompyG
CEldrazi TronC
URWJeskai GeistWRU
WRBoros BurnRW
BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
RUAffinityUR
GMono Green StompyG
CEldrazi TronC
URWJeskai GeistWRU
WRBoros BurnRW
BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
RUAffinityUR
GMono Green StompyG
CEldrazi TronC
URWJeskai GeistWRU
WRBoros BurnRW
BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
Pod is simply too good. Since it was banned, some damn good Pod cards have been printed as well (e.g. Rallier) that would make it even worse. Granted, we have Kcommand now, but more often than not it'll beat the Kcommand decks just through out-attritioning them.
People remember Delver-TC being the best deck during its time, but Pod was actually the best deck at something like 22-25% during that time. Plus if you go back and look at Day 2 rates, conversion %, etc. Pod was absurd.
Before storm i was dying to tron all day everyday trying to midrange (lol), kill with elves (sometimes i'd make it), and tempo (delver). But tron crushes all these things, so why try?
Nobody wants to interact with me, so screw that. I won't interact either. Let's see whose boat sails faster in the night.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
The fact of the matter is that while ETron was the most popular deck in day 2 (15 copies) had the WORST conversion rate in both top 8 (0 copies) and top 32 (1 copy). If ETron was tier 0.5 there would be no chance for such a low conversion rate. We don't know how many ETron decks were day 1 but they definitely did well on the first day of the tournament but not the second.
To me that says several things. Firstly, that in a very wide format as is day 1 of an SCG open, with players of literally every level, ETron can do well. It is a deck that prays on several brews as well as on players of lower skill tiers.
At the same time, it is a deck with low risk high reward. Often you just play big dumb dudes and you win. The combination of the low skill floor of the deck and the fact that it prays on unprepared opponents gives it a huge boost on day 1.
Second, the deck can clearly be hated out. Obviously this is the case for every deck, but not when a deck is oppressive. Eldrazi decks during Eldrazi winters couldn't be hated out. There would be 0 chance of no eldrazi decks making into top 8 during eldrazi winter. Eldrazi Tron however now almost missed top 32 altogether. Therefore it can be hated out.
Thirdly, it's not like one or two decks prayed on it and converted on top 32 with 5-6 copies each. On the contrary, top 32 was quite diverse, with control decks, junds, combo, normal tron, ponza, affinity etc. This shows that a meta with ETron in it has room with a variety of decks.
Concluding, this event (specifically) showed that it is possible to hate out ETron even if it comes in large numbers. Is that the case in general? I say probably, we see it happening in GPs and in competitive leagues. Is ETron an annoying deck to play against? Well, I guess that's a personal thing. I hate playing against it but I am a control player.
Does temple deserve a ban? Maybe, depending on the justification. However, in terms of meta percentages and results, a temple ban can't be supported right now.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
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