Thought experiment; how would ETron be impacted by Thought-Knot Seer being banned? Taking away their form of interaction (that can come down T2 and leaves a 4/4 body) would weaken the deck, but would having T3 Reality Smashers and Karns make the deck still top-tier?
You have to attribute Grixis Death invalidating midrange decks, too.
On a personal note, E-Tron doesn't motivate me to play Junk, I can't justify playing a midrange deck that feels significantly weaker, outside of mixing things up for funs sake.
So honestly, I am hoping that on Monday they decide to unban Gitaxian Probe. Banning the card was imho completely stupid. They banned it because of the consistency it gave decks like Infect, but at the same time they printed Fatal Push which is an amazing answer to those strategies.
Unbanning Probe brings back Infect as a deck, and while Push will definitely hamper the archetype, Infect's resurgence will also help drive back the big mana decks back.
Honestly, I think the best way to change the Modern format is for them to essentially undo the last thing they did to it. Enough cards have been added to the format, and enough of it has changed since Probe was banned, that I honestly thinks it's a fine card for us to be allowed to have again.
Add to that the fact that imho the reason the banned it in the first place was just stupid...
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I personally think that Probe was the best ban they've ever done in Modern, so I'm biased, and I do admittedly dislike pretty much every single Phyrexian mana card because it was an incredibly stupid mechanic.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
I don't know if this is the best move. Personally, I would love to have Infect back in the format; it helps prey upon Tron/Scapeshift, it makes Jund/mid-range stronger by presenting a target for them in the format, and I just personally enjoy the "linear but totally interactable" gameplay.
That being said, unbanning Git Probe is probably not the way Wizards would go about doing it.
When Probe was banned, it wasn't just Infect that was "abusing" it. This was right around when Aggro Death Shadow was becoming a force, and having an all-upsides card that filled the graveyard, warned you of interaction, lost you life, and replaced itself was honestly bah-roken. So that was one strike against it.
Also at that time (though my memory might be hazy on this part) Storm was using Pyromancer's Ascension, to great success, alongside a plethora of cantrips that made their rituals super efficient and let them go off pretty easily from low amounts of mana. Strike two.
Third, Infect was having a non-zero amount of T3 (or fewer!) kills, which breaks the T4 rule of Modern. Having lethal in hand, and being able to, for free, check to see if the coast was clear was a huge thing for the super-linear deck. I'd wager the number of circumstances where Infect can kill T4 or less is relatively the same as pre-ban, but being unable to check before going all in means you wait until you have interaction to back up your kill. This delays the clock by a turn or so, which ultimately isn't terrible for the format as a whole, but it left Infect just a bit too slow to kill routinely against its natural big-mana prey. Add to this the addition of Fatal Push, which makes a third color with one-mana interruption that you need to play around, and you have Infect's current state, which is to say practically unplayed, at least compared to its former glory.
The casualties of the Probe ban included Grixis Delver, possibly the most fun I've had in Modern, and I was pretty broken up about my pet deck being gutted because of the sins of a few other more unfair abusers of the card.
Flash forward to now.
Grixis Death Shadow is a thing, the refined concoction that resulted from the pure-uranium version of Death Shadow Aggro. I feel the deck would love to go down to 52 card main deck again, and even though it seems the playerbase has started to hate ETron more than DS, it could easily swing back if DS rises to prominence again.
Storm is Tier 1 for the first time in a while, and being able to, like Infect did, scout out the victory would be pretty big. I'm not super caught up on the interactions of Tier 1 decks, so I don't know if Storm being stronger would help or hurt big-mana's prevalence.
Finally, Infect might be playable again with a Probe unban. You can scout out victories, fuel your Become Immenses, but you'll still have a more hostile meta, filled with GDS, UW Control, and Affinity to Push, Path, or just block your critters. Infect might rise to the challenge, but it also might not.
So if we unban Probe, we empower Infect, though not definitively to a point where it can claim a seat at the big boy table, but we also give two decks, already at Tier 1 status, a strong tool they would love to have. I don't think that's the kind of unban Wizards would look at right now. If anything, I feel they want to shake up Tier 1, either by removing certain players or by unbanning the tools that would allow for lower tier decks to possibly be powerful enough to stand up to what's happening, like what Emma Handy suggests in her article (linked earlier in this thread, but it's here).
i actually understand what people mean by the top tier decks right now are unappealing. as someone who used to be super into the format and is looking to start playing again, looking at "tier 1" right now, and seeing eldrazi tron, GDS, UW control, storm, burn, scapeshift, and affinity makes me sad. aside from GSD, UW control, and affinity, the play in those decks is so radically different from the days of pod, jund, twin, affinity, and wur. the only deck that actually looks appealing to me because of the type of play it promotes is wur queller. of course, what i'm saying might have a large dose of nostalgia.
on a side note, big mana (not to be confused with ramp) has been an issue with the format since day 1. there still are no good ways to directly attack big mana. you used to be able to get away with going under them, but since the deck shifted to feature the mistakes of return to zen block, it's pretty hard to do that now.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
You have to attribute Grixis Death invalidating midrange decks, too.
On a personal note, E-Tron doesn't motivate me to play Junk, I can't justify playing a midrange deck that feels significantly weaker, outside of mixing things up for funs sake.
Sure, but it doesnt feel nearly as stupid as ETron.
I completely had a brain fart and forgot about Storm and Shadow, especially being so obvious
Probe is kinda non-negotiable right now.
I still think Splinter Twin, BBE and SFM are viable unbans. I'm firmly against a Jace unban, the scenario of needing to reban it is just too risky for me
Well, that's like your opinion. That Dredge you call destroyed the format had a 7% share. And Infect was below Jund and Junk, I can't see how Infect destroyed anything. Except the decks that make THIS format a dumpster fire. It certainly destroyed those.
To be fair, I feel like most players knew that Infect and Dredge were the 2 best decks. As often as I switch decks, during this time, I played Dredge almost exclusively. I felt like since I knew how to "make Infect a 50/50 matchup," everything else, I can just crush. I played Dredge exclusively, except stupidly not so at an RPTQ, where a friend whose lesser of a player than myself, top 4ed super easily while I muddled with Bogles at 4-2. One of my stupidest mistakes ever.
But, it didn't mean the meta was bad, per se. There were decks that beat 1 or the other, or neither, and I'm sure there were some that beat both (perhaps barely), but lost to other decks. I didn't see a problem with that meta, but I saw complaints here on MTGS about Dredge and even locally. So, I personally don't think you will have many players agree with you on that particular time.
*I'll try to post again what I posted before my computer crashed. The meta is pretty solved and boring. I think an unban of not 1 card, but Bloodbraid Elf, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and Stoneforge Mystic (if not Preordain because Storm scares players) all at 1 time. This will inject a lot of interest in the format. Maybe I'm wrong? I think players are interested in playing these seemingly harmless cards that have never gotten the chance in Modern or were banned incorrectly. I think it will also push Modern towards "fair Magic." It may not even make a wave in the Tier 1 territory, but it definitely would inject some LIFE into Modern. Maybe Wizards is saving these unbans, but if you do it too late, you've already lost players. (maybe they hope to push more toward Standard)
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
You have to attribute Grixis Death invalidating midrange decks, too.
On a personal note, E-Tron doesn't motivate me to play Junk, I can't justify playing a midrange deck that feels significantly weaker, outside of mixing things up for funs sake.
Sure, but it doesnt feel nearly as stupid as ETron.
Yes, it is, it's just not something any scrub can pick up, the deck demands great playing
Ehh, I honestly feel the format is fast (and creature-based) enough for Jace to not be totally oppressive. He's a 4 mana spell in a Turn 4 format, and he isn't protected by 2 free counterspells like he is in Legacy (Force of Will and Daze). He'd likely be played in UW Control, but I don't forsee that being enough to make UW Control top of Tier 1.
Don't get me wrong, Jace is one of the strongest PWs printed, and in other Modern metas he could run away with things, but I feel like, at least right now, he wouldn't be as dominating as one might think.
I mean, how many 4 mana spells are played that don't either win that turn or are part of a chain to win that turn? Scapeshift wins, Gifts Ungiven sets up the win. This isn't a format where you can tap out for Jace on T4 and not be scared of just dying on the crack-back.
All this being said, I think Jace unban, while not the craziest thing in the world, is unlikely, solely because he's a house in Legacy, and that makes him a risky unban, and Wizards historically has been very conservative with their unbans, GGT aside.
If there had to be a time for Jace to be unbanned, I'd say now would be the safest, as he won't suddenly make slower decks beat the linear, fast decks that dominate the current meta. And once the pendulum inevitably shifts back to mid-rangy, longer game plans, Jace would be there as a part of the landscape that everyone needs to consider when forming archetypes. Maybe it would turn out that Jace becomes too strong in a slower meta, but the only chance Jace has at staying unbanned is to be released into a fast meta, so that he's a known quantity by the time things slow down.
What do you mean dredge didn't make the meta bad? Players literally started main boarding graveyard hate and averaging 6 or more graveyard hate pieces in the side, all while pushing every single graveyard deck into tier 3 territory. In fact, we were seeing an unusual amount of tier 2 decks pushed into tier 3 thanks to dredge and infect.
Infect and dredge in that meta did not encourage players to play fair decks, people felt obligated to play nothing but fast, linear decks.
You didn't mind that meta, because as you said, you learned to play infect to a 50/50 while crushing everything else.
You even claimed to hear about dredge being awful for modern locally. I mean---I know your intentions are good, but you don't hear how self-centric your opinion on that meta sounds?
We need to be careful about how we throw around subjective statements.
Players mainboarding graveyard hate, and Tier 2 decks being shifted to Tier 3, does not make a meta bad. It might make it less enjoyable for pilots of those collateral-damage decks, but lower tier decks fluctuate constantly at the whim of what the meta does to adapt to top tier decks. This is normal. For example, if Affinity became Tier 0 somehow and the meta starts running maindeck artifact removal, then Affinity's oppression would be more of an issue than the fact that suddenly Krark-Clan Ironworks decks suddenly got a whole lot worse.
Infect in that meta was the epitome of fast and linear. You didn't out-linear infect. You interacted with it. Infect promoted mid-range, interactive decks, because they could handle the level of creatures with removal, and present their own threats. Dredge was more heavy-handed, being explosive enough to require some sort of concession in the form of grave hate or early sweepers, and Wizards noted this and banned GGT. Dredge turned out to be too strong, and it got banned for it. It wasn't the graveyard strategies that were relegated to Tier 3 that made the decision, though. I was the holistic health of the format. I think as a thread we need to remember that that health is the most important thing that should be considered when examining bans/unbans.
What do you mean dredge didn't make the meta bad? Players literally started main boarding graveyard hate and averaging 6 or more graveyard hate pieces in the side, all while pushing every single graveyard deck into tier 3 territory. In fact, we were seeing an unusual amount of tier 2 decks pushed into tier 3 thanks to dredge and infect.
Infect and dredge in that meta did not encourage players to play fair decks, people felt obligated to play nothing but fast, linear decks.
You didn't mind that meta, because as you said, you learned to play infect to a 50/50 while crushing everything else.
You even claimed to hear about dredge being awful for modern locally. I mean---I know your intentions are good, but you don't hear how self-centric your opinion on that meta sounds?
Yeah, my memory is not quite what it was before. I didn't want it too look super bad when someone says that it's one of their favorite metas. Yes, it was skewed toward Graveyard hate, although it was also like that quite a bit until just recently when people have realized that the new Dredge and GDS are NOT currently public enemy #1 and #2. Yes, Dredge did crush fair decks. I can't argue with that. I actually can't argue with anything you said. I just remembered it not so badly, probably because I was one mistake away from probably qualifying for the Pro Tour again (not choosing Dredge stupidly).
I still will say that we needed to see the effect of Fatal Push on the meta before banning Gitaxian Probe and that it is not the 666 monster that people think it is. (I feel that some players are comparing it to something like Mental Misstep, when this card was pretty much innocuous didn't do all that much since it was printed) Heck, I played Dredge, but Golgari Grave-Troll was 100% the correct ban.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Let's be entirely honest, WotC has printed a lot of badly thought out cards recently, including Prized Amalgam and Cathartic Reunion, every single Eldrazi under 7 mana, etc.
Hopefully the former pro players who are working for them now might be able to go "uh guys, this card's going to bust Modern", but I don't think WotC will actually listen.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
To be fair, in a world where Prized Amalgam and Cathartic Reunion were reprinted, but GGT stayed banned, I don't think we would have had the problem with Dredge that we had. The unban was basically "Dredge isn't a thing, let's see if we can make this a thing" and then, once Amalgam and Reunion were introduced, Wizards seemed to not realize how silly they would be with Dredge.
Totally on board with the Eldrazi, though. Those things were in no way designed by anyone who knew Eldrazi Temple was a card.
Both these errors come from design in isolation of Modern. I don't know if we'll ever get designers who look at Modern a fraction of the time they spend on Standard, but until we do these sorts of things will keep happening. Just hope it doesn't break things. A positive example is Vizier of Remedies, which has breathed life into GW Toolbox Combo, without making it oppressive. Dollars to dimes no one realized the interaction before it shipped. It just happened to not be oppressive.
Let's be entirely honest, WotC has printed a lot of badly thought out cards recently, including Prized Amalgam and Cathartic Reunion, every single Eldrazi under 7 mana, etc.
Hopefully the former pro players who are working for them now might be able to go "uh guys, this card's going to bust Modern", but I don't think WotC will actually listen.
I think WoTCs answer to complaints about a card breaking modern revolves around the words "Don't worry, we'll just ban something later", or "just focus on standard." Part of the problem I have with Wizards is that they are being driven by contemporary marketing that focuses on the whole flash in the pan thing. If a set has been out for a month it's already getting stale so they got to go get the next one up on spoilers to get everyone chasing the next shiny thing. Because of this, they don't really spend a lot of time refining the long term strategy for maintaining non-rotating formats like modern. They sort of just hope that if they reprint things and ban a card here and there peoples problems will go away.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Let's be entirely honest, WotC has printed a lot of badly thought out cards recently, including Prized Amalgam and Cathartic Reunion, every single Eldrazi under 7 mana, etc.
Hopefully the former pro players who are working for them now might be able to go "uh guys, this card's going to bust Modern", but I don't think WotC will actually listen.
I think WoTCs answer to complaints about a card breaking modern revolves around the words "Don't worry, we'll just ban something later", or "just focus on standard." Part of the problem I have with Wizards is that they are being driven by contemporary marketing that focuses on the whole flash in the pan thing. If a set has been out for a month it's already getting stale so they got to go get the next one up on spoilers to get everyone chasing the next shiny thing. Because of this, they don't really spend a lot of time refining the long term strategy for maintaining non-rotating formats like modern. They sort of just hope that if they reprint things and ban a card here and there peoples problems will go away.
The thing we have to keep in mind is that Wizards is a company. They need to do business. That business is not, for the large part, dependent on Modern. Standard sells packs. Modern is the king of secondary market, and Wizards can't really make a profit off the format. They can get exposure, and retain customers, but you don't open a box of the Standard set because you play Modern.
Because of this, they spend the vast majority of their resources on Standard - and rightfully so. It takes more attention to craft new environments, to develop and balance sets, to create new worlds, than it does to maintain older, non-rotating formats. You will NEVER have a Wizards that cares more about Modern than Standard. This is a fact.
I, for one, would love if there was a small council within WotC that sits in on new set development and keeps an eye out for the Prized Amalgams and Eldrazi of the future, so at least, when the next Eldrazi winter looms, there'll have been an internal group saying, "Hey, guys, Eldrazi is probably going to be a strong archetype with double sol lands and these pushed as frick creatures, we're gonna keep an eye on results and be prepared to trim down anything that is too oppressive." This, of course, would be a group not focused on Standard in any way, which is why they probably won't do something like this, at least until Modern becomes a much, much worse place. Modern was always meant to stand more on its own than Standard; Wizards just hoped that meant it would look at the numbers a few times a year, ban something if they really needed to, then go back to focusing on Standard.
Their recent errors of judgment have shown this isn't working. If Wizards wants Modern to continue to be a supported format, and I really hope they do, then they should accept that consideration for other formats needs to play a part in designing Standard-legal sets. Otherwise, it's just a matter of time before the next broken mechanic, or over-pushed tribe, that takes Modern by storm and sets off years of recuperation, like we've seen the past almost 2 years.
Could just be that when Arena gets released we get a new format anyway so they care a little less right now. Once cards rotate out of standard on arena they have no use so there will IMO be a new format that starts here with ixalan. This makes me wonder about the state of modern in general honestly.
Could just be that when Arena gets released we get a new format anyway so they care a little less right now. Once cards rotate out of standard on arena they have no use so there will IMO be a new format that starts here with ixalan. This makes me wonder about the state of modern in general honestly.
That makes sense. This new format should start during the period where the playtesting group is in charge.
This new format should have no Aetherworks Marvel, no Fatal Push with fetchlands, no Felidar Guardian-Saheeli Rai. So, again, this thought makes sense.
But in all honesty I dont think they re giving up Modern. They just reintroduced it as a PT format, even if the last time they removed it as a PT format, because "Modern needs no further push now". That's why they said they could fix colour diversity, that's why they nerfed Dredge and Infect.
They want Modern to be doing good, of that I am sure.
There isn't any indication that they are keeping modern around long term. We've seen them do things like this before where they rapidly swap between stances within a two year period to keep the boat floating. They can't get rid of modern if they don't have a new non-rotating format, and even if they do have a new non-rotating format modern isn't going to fade over night. Like legacy, it's going to take a bit before the transition is complete when they start the new one up.
However, keep in mind that they can introduce sets far faster in digital than they can in paper, so there isn't a huge reason why they can't "rapidly move into" some kind of pseudo modern format with Arena.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Modern is a fairly popular format, so I see no reason why they would suddenly disband it.
Of course if they would eliminate the reserved list we wouldn't need modern anymore as they could just reprint all of the legacy staples that are currently unaffordable to many. But as I don't see this happening, modern is here to stay
5-2 lists or better:
Jeskai: 4 (3 Queller, 1 Control)
EldraTron: 3
Death and Taxes: 2(1 Eldrazi and Taxes, 1 Mono W)
Lantern Prison: 2
Affinity: 2
4c Humans: 1 Jund Midrange: 1
BG Tron: 1
UR Gifts Storm: 1
Turbo Hollow One: 1
Ad Nauseam: 1
Bant Knightfall: 1
The 1st place Eldrazi Tron is actually Green Tron splashing Eldrazi Temple for Thought-Knot Seer and World Breaker, not the traditional all colorless version
After watching Eldrazi Tron play out today on camera, I think the Urzatron need to go. Turn 3 Karn is just so gross
Let's leave 7+ mana cards in EDH where they belong
So do you apply this to all things that are 'gross' on t3, or just Tron? Triple burn spell for 9 damage is gross, as is giant DS, or more than one. Affinity can vomit their hand in the first two turns. Modern is a format of ridiculous things, but saying that a t3 card that doesn't win on the spot, or EVEN help bring them to 0, it's ridiculous. Especially considering that the bulk of the deck has to be devoted to those lands and getting them out. And then you have to have Karn in hand, and not have had to use mana to GET that third land, or to draw Karn, t3 Karn is the main idea of the deck, but it's a god hand. If yourdeck doesn't have a gross ideal hand, it really has no place in the format. And pre-BFZ, those lands were never a problem. It is the Eldrazi and their sol land. I advocated Temple being banned before, my position hasn't changed. Ban it, then smack the person who suggested Eldrazi under 6cmc.
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On a personal note, E-Tron doesn't motivate me to play Junk, I can't justify playing a midrange deck that feels significantly weaker, outside of mixing things up for funs sake.
Unbanning Probe brings back Infect as a deck, and while Push will definitely hamper the archetype, Infect's resurgence will also help drive back the big mana decks back.
Honestly, I think the best way to change the Modern format is for them to essentially undo the last thing they did to it. Enough cards have been added to the format, and enough of it has changed since Probe was banned, that I honestly thinks it's a fine card for us to be allowed to have again.
Add to that the fact that imho the reason the banned it in the first place was just stupid...
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
If SFM isn't unbanned before or after pro tour, I'm selling my copies off; I'll be convinced it will forever stay banned in modern
That being said, unbanning Git Probe is probably not the way Wizards would go about doing it.
When Probe was banned, it wasn't just Infect that was "abusing" it. This was right around when Aggro Death Shadow was becoming a force, and having an all-upsides card that filled the graveyard, warned you of interaction, lost you life, and replaced itself was honestly bah-roken. So that was one strike against it.
Also at that time (though my memory might be hazy on this part) Storm was using Pyromancer's Ascension, to great success, alongside a plethora of cantrips that made their rituals super efficient and let them go off pretty easily from low amounts of mana. Strike two.
Third, Infect was having a non-zero amount of T3 (or fewer!) kills, which breaks the T4 rule of Modern. Having lethal in hand, and being able to, for free, check to see if the coast was clear was a huge thing for the super-linear deck. I'd wager the number of circumstances where Infect can kill T4 or less is relatively the same as pre-ban, but being unable to check before going all in means you wait until you have interaction to back up your kill. This delays the clock by a turn or so, which ultimately isn't terrible for the format as a whole, but it left Infect just a bit too slow to kill routinely against its natural big-mana prey. Add to this the addition of Fatal Push, which makes a third color with one-mana interruption that you need to play around, and you have Infect's current state, which is to say practically unplayed, at least compared to its former glory.
The casualties of the Probe ban included Grixis Delver, possibly the most fun I've had in Modern, and I was pretty broken up about my pet deck being gutted because of the sins of a few other more unfair abusers of the card.
Flash forward to now.
Grixis Death Shadow is a thing, the refined concoction that resulted from the pure-uranium version of Death Shadow Aggro. I feel the deck would love to go down to 52 card main deck again, and even though it seems the playerbase has started to hate ETron more than DS, it could easily swing back if DS rises to prominence again.
Storm is Tier 1 for the first time in a while, and being able to, like Infect did, scout out the victory would be pretty big. I'm not super caught up on the interactions of Tier 1 decks, so I don't know if Storm being stronger would help or hurt big-mana's prevalence.
Finally, Infect might be playable again with a Probe unban. You can scout out victories, fuel your Become Immenses, but you'll still have a more hostile meta, filled with GDS, UW Control, and Affinity to Push, Path, or just block your critters. Infect might rise to the challenge, but it also might not.
So if we unban Probe, we empower Infect, though not definitively to a point where it can claim a seat at the big boy table, but we also give two decks, already at Tier 1 status, a strong tool they would love to have. I don't think that's the kind of unban Wizards would look at right now. If anything, I feel they want to shake up Tier 1, either by removing certain players or by unbanning the tools that would allow for lower tier decks to possibly be powerful enough to stand up to what's happening, like what Emma Handy suggests in her article (linked earlier in this thread, but it's here).
on a side note, big mana (not to be confused with ramp) has been an issue with the format since day 1. there still are no good ways to directly attack big mana. you used to be able to get away with going under them, but since the deck shifted to feature the mistakes of return to zen block, it's pretty hard to do that now.
Sure, but it doesnt feel nearly as stupid as ETron.
Spirits
I completely had a brain fart and forgot about Storm and Shadow, especially being so obvious
Probe is kinda non-negotiable right now.
I still think Splinter Twin, BBE and SFM are viable unbans. I'm firmly against a Jace unban, the scenario of needing to reban it is just too risky for me
To be fair, I feel like most players knew that Infect and Dredge were the 2 best decks. As often as I switch decks, during this time, I played Dredge almost exclusively. I felt like since I knew how to "make Infect a 50/50 matchup," everything else, I can just crush. I played Dredge exclusively, except stupidly not so at an RPTQ, where a friend whose lesser of a player than myself, top 4ed super easily while I muddled with Bogles at 4-2.
But, it didn't mean the meta was bad, per se. There were decks that beat 1 or the other, or neither, and I'm sure there were some that beat both (perhaps barely), but lost to other decks. I didn't see a problem with that meta, but I saw complaints here on MTGS about Dredge and even locally. So, I personally don't think you will have many players agree with you on that particular time.
*I'll try to post again what I posted before my computer crashed. The meta is pretty solved and boring. I think an unban of not 1 card, but Bloodbraid Elf, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and Stoneforge Mystic (if not Preordain because Storm scares players) all at 1 time. This will inject a lot of interest in the format. Maybe I'm wrong? I think players are interested in playing these seemingly harmless cards that have never gotten the chance in Modern or were banned incorrectly. I think it will also push Modern towards "fair Magic." It may not even make a wave in the Tier 1 territory, but it definitely would inject some LIFE into Modern. Maybe Wizards is saving these unbans, but if you do it too late, you've already lost players. (maybe they hope to push more toward Standard)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Yes, it is, it's just not something any scrub can pick up, the deck demands great playing
It's difficulty is why I think it's not broken.
Don't get me wrong, Jace is one of the strongest PWs printed, and in other Modern metas he could run away with things, but I feel like, at least right now, he wouldn't be as dominating as one might think.
I mean, how many 4 mana spells are played that don't either win that turn or are part of a chain to win that turn? Scapeshift wins, Gifts Ungiven sets up the win. This isn't a format where you can tap out for Jace on T4 and not be scared of just dying on the crack-back.
All this being said, I think Jace unban, while not the craziest thing in the world, is unlikely, solely because he's a house in Legacy, and that makes him a risky unban, and Wizards historically has been very conservative with their unbans, GGT aside.
If there had to be a time for Jace to be unbanned, I'd say now would be the safest, as he won't suddenly make slower decks beat the linear, fast decks that dominate the current meta. And once the pendulum inevitably shifts back to mid-rangy, longer game plans, Jace would be there as a part of the landscape that everyone needs to consider when forming archetypes. Maybe it would turn out that Jace becomes too strong in a slower meta, but the only chance Jace has at staying unbanned is to be released into a fast meta, so that he's a known quantity by the time things slow down.
Infect and dredge in that meta did not encourage players to play fair decks, people felt obligated to play nothing but fast, linear decks.
You didn't mind that meta, because as you said, you learned to play infect to a 50/50 while crushing everything else.
You even claimed to hear about dredge being awful for modern locally. I mean---I know your intentions are good, but you don't hear how self-centric your opinion on that meta sounds?
Players mainboarding graveyard hate, and Tier 2 decks being shifted to Tier 3, does not make a meta bad. It might make it less enjoyable for pilots of those collateral-damage decks, but lower tier decks fluctuate constantly at the whim of what the meta does to adapt to top tier decks. This is normal. For example, if Affinity became Tier 0 somehow and the meta starts running maindeck artifact removal, then Affinity's oppression would be more of an issue than the fact that suddenly Krark-Clan Ironworks decks suddenly got a whole lot worse.
Infect in that meta was the epitome of fast and linear. You didn't out-linear infect. You interacted with it. Infect promoted mid-range, interactive decks, because they could handle the level of creatures with removal, and present their own threats. Dredge was more heavy-handed, being explosive enough to require some sort of concession in the form of grave hate or early sweepers, and Wizards noted this and banned GGT. Dredge turned out to be too strong, and it got banned for it. It wasn't the graveyard strategies that were relegated to Tier 3 that made the decision, though. I was the holistic health of the format. I think as a thread we need to remember that that health is the most important thing that should be considered when examining bans/unbans.
Yeah, my memory is not quite what it was before. I didn't want it too look super bad when someone says that it's one of their favorite metas. Yes, it was skewed toward Graveyard hate, although it was also like that quite a bit until just recently when people have realized that the new Dredge and GDS are NOT currently public enemy #1 and #2. Yes, Dredge did crush fair decks. I can't argue with that. I actually can't argue with anything you said. I just remembered it not so badly, probably because I was one mistake away from probably qualifying for the Pro Tour again (not choosing Dredge stupidly).
I still will say that we needed to see the effect of Fatal Push on the meta before banning Gitaxian Probe and that it is not the 666 monster that people think it is. (I feel that some players are comparing it to something like Mental Misstep, when this card was
pretty much innocuousdidn't do all that much since it was printed) Heck, I played Dredge, but Golgari Grave-Troll was 100% the correct ban.Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Battle of the sideboard was a common theme among the posters in this thread
Hopefully the former pro players who are working for them now might be able to go "uh guys, this card's going to bust Modern", but I don't think WotC will actually listen.
Totally on board with the Eldrazi, though. Those things were in no way designed by anyone who knew Eldrazi Temple was a card.
Both these errors come from design in isolation of Modern. I don't know if we'll ever get designers who look at Modern a fraction of the time they spend on Standard, but until we do these sorts of things will keep happening. Just hope it doesn't break things. A positive example is Vizier of Remedies, which has breathed life into GW Toolbox Combo, without making it oppressive. Dollars to dimes no one realized the interaction before it shipped. It just happened to not be oppressive.
I think WoTCs answer to complaints about a card breaking modern revolves around the words "Don't worry, we'll just ban something later", or "just focus on standard." Part of the problem I have with Wizards is that they are being driven by contemporary marketing that focuses on the whole flash in the pan thing. If a set has been out for a month it's already getting stale so they got to go get the next one up on spoilers to get everyone chasing the next shiny thing. Because of this, they don't really spend a lot of time refining the long term strategy for maintaining non-rotating formats like modern. They sort of just hope that if they reprint things and ban a card here and there peoples problems will go away.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The thing we have to keep in mind is that Wizards is a company. They need to do business. That business is not, for the large part, dependent on Modern. Standard sells packs. Modern is the king of secondary market, and Wizards can't really make a profit off the format. They can get exposure, and retain customers, but you don't open a box of the Standard set because you play Modern.
Because of this, they spend the vast majority of their resources on Standard - and rightfully so. It takes more attention to craft new environments, to develop and balance sets, to create new worlds, than it does to maintain older, non-rotating formats. You will NEVER have a Wizards that cares more about Modern than Standard. This is a fact.
I, for one, would love if there was a small council within WotC that sits in on new set development and keeps an eye out for the Prized Amalgams and Eldrazi of the future, so at least, when the next Eldrazi winter looms, there'll have been an internal group saying, "Hey, guys, Eldrazi is probably going to be a strong archetype with double sol lands and these pushed as frick creatures, we're gonna keep an eye on results and be prepared to trim down anything that is too oppressive." This, of course, would be a group not focused on Standard in any way, which is why they probably won't do something like this, at least until Modern becomes a much, much worse place. Modern was always meant to stand more on its own than Standard; Wizards just hoped that meant it would look at the numbers a few times a year, ban something if they really needed to, then go back to focusing on Standard.
Their recent errors of judgment have shown this isn't working. If Wizards wants Modern to continue to be a supported format, and I really hope they do, then they should accept that consideration for other formats needs to play a part in designing Standard-legal sets. Otherwise, it's just a matter of time before the next broken mechanic, or over-pushed tribe, that takes Modern by storm and sets off years of recuperation, like we've seen the past almost 2 years.
There isn't any indication that they are keeping modern around long term. We've seen them do things like this before where they rapidly swap between stances within a two year period to keep the boat floating. They can't get rid of modern if they don't have a new non-rotating format, and even if they do have a new non-rotating format modern isn't going to fade over night. Like legacy, it's going to take a bit before the transition is complete when they start the new one up.
However, keep in mind that they can introduce sets far faster in digital than they can in paper, so there isn't a huge reason why they can't "rapidly move into" some kind of pseudo modern format with Arena.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Of course if they would eliminate the reserved list we wouldn't need modern anymore as they could just reprint all of the legacy staples that are currently unaffordable to many. But as I don't see this happening, modern is here to stay
The 1st place Eldrazi Tron is actually Green Tron splashing Eldrazi Temple for Thought-Knot Seer and World Breaker, not the traditional all colorless version
So do you apply this to all things that are 'gross' on t3, or just Tron? Triple burn spell for 9 damage is gross, as is giant DS, or more than one. Affinity can vomit their hand in the first two turns. Modern is a format of ridiculous things, but saying that a t3 card that doesn't win on the spot, or EVEN help bring them to 0, it's ridiculous. Especially considering that the bulk of the deck has to be devoted to those lands and getting them out. And then you have to have Karn in hand, and not have had to use mana to GET that third land, or to draw Karn, t3 Karn is the main idea of the deck, but it's a god hand. If yourdeck doesn't have a gross ideal hand, it really has no place in the format. And pre-BFZ, those lands were never a problem. It is the Eldrazi and their sol land. I advocated Temple being banned before, my position hasn't changed. Ban it, then smack the person who suggested Eldrazi under 6cmc.