I'm not too enthusiastic about this recent discussion.
For starter, like many, I think the speculation of what would happen without the current tier-1 is both mostly hot air and entirely pointless. It's not that I mind people shooting from the hip and giving their opinion, but that I find the discussion to be a symptom of a lack of mental rigor. Any meta has a tier one, every tier set will have its detractor, every deck has its lover and hater. You'd replace one set of dissatisfied players with another. I'd rather read people discuss how to make some decks better than how to destroy the ones that exist. I find the current displayed hate for the existing tier-1 a bit tasteless.
Furthermore, the discussion seems to take for granted two things. One, that the current tier-1 suite is dominating. It's not true. Multiple recent results have shown other decks taking the crown in a given tournament. There is no huge gulf between tier-1 and tier-2. So why want to change the tier-1? It does not extinguish variety, that's just not true. Two, history bears this out, a single new card can push tier-2 deck into tier-1. Look at Baral making storm better for example. So, I would much prefer to see people speculating on new cards (even made up ones) that would help change the meta rather than bashing tier-1 decks you think are no-fun.
Agreed. It's really a simple matter to create another subforum here and pin it to the top strictly for discussion of cards to ban/unban in the Modern format. A thread titled in any way w/ "State of the Meta" should not include discussion about banning/unbanning cards, rather it should center on the discussion of decks and cards actually legal in the format. This, imho, is what most players would rather talk about and especially READ about even if they don't want to start or engage in conversation themselves. This particular thread is dominated by about 12 posters who say the same thing every day all day long, and they only focus on what they want banned/unbanned. So there is really no discussion about the state of the meta in this thread it's all about a meta of fantasy.
The two-month or whatever it was "ban Splinter Twin" talk here was just a half-assed attempt at what I've stated above.
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FREE MODERN. Break the Standard link.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
I agree with most of this, but I have to say that running Midrange right now is a death sentence. You simply aren't beating Valakut strategies, not to mention Eldrazi Tron. I think I have just gotten lucky, but honestly I'm something like 27-2 vs. BGx Midrange strategies with Titanshift. A few of these were at the 9 PPTQs and 1 GP that I ran it in, although most of those players avoided it. It's to the point where I am a bit cocky about the matchup; I won't lie. Even the discard, 2 drop, LotV hand really needs Tarmogoyf + discard on turn 4 to have a chance IMO.
But, this is Modern (THIS IZ SPARTA!). Despite the meta not really being much "fun," there is a real rock/paper/scissors thing going on. No one can hope to dodge all the decks that beat them. Luck is a HUGE part, so I shouldn't really go around telling people not to play a particular deck, even if I truly believe it.
So are you going to join me in the journey to unban Bloodbraid Elf?
I'm down. It shouldn't be banned (and probably never should have been, but that's another story). But my horse in the race is with Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Preordain because these are tools that I personally would love to use. I probably am more likely to utilize Stoneforge Mystic as well since I did it a bunch in RW Landfall in Standard, although I never did enjoy Stoneblade decks much in Legacy.
But the card, Bloodbraid Elf, literally does nada in today's meta. Players should be happy to unban cards that straight up get beat by the current Tier 1 strategies. Does Grixis Shadow care? Barely. Does E Tron care? Not much. Does Titanshift care? Not in the slightest. Any more boxes to check off? Not to mention, within the lower Tier strategies, UWR type decks beat Jund. Isn't it time to give Jund at least tools to win some sort of matchup? (and yes, I know Tyler Lutes was 12-0 with Jund at some point during the SCG Open)
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I'm betting big on a BBE unban. I've been collecting BBE and foil BBE for a long time. It may not be unbanned this time. But it will one day and I intend to cash in when that happens. I also got hit with collateral damage when it got banned. I played cascade swans and BBE really held that together. I'm looking forward to playing that deck again one day and I think now is fine with what jund's meta share is.
However I think with the opt reprint Preordain is going to be banned a while longer till they see how that shakes out.
I'm not too enthusiastic about this recent discussion.
For starter, like many, I think the speculation of what would happen without the current tier-1 is both mostly hot air and entirely pointless. It's not that I mind people shooting from the hip and giving their opinion, but that I find the discussion to be a symptom of a lack of mental rigor. Any meta has a tier one, every tier set will have its detractor, every deck has its lover and hater. You'd replace one set of dissatisfied players with another. I'd rather read people discuss how to make some decks better than how to destroy the ones that exist. I find the current displayed hate for the existing tier-1 a bit tasteless.
Furthermore, the discussion seems to take for granted two things. One, that the current tier-1 suite is dominating. It's not true. Multiple recent results have shown other decks taking the crown in a given tournament. There is no huge gulf between tier-1 and tier-2. So why want to change the tier-1? It does not extinguish variety, that's just not true. Two, history bears this out, a single new card can push tier-2 deck into tier-1. Look at Baral making storm better for example. So, I would much prefer to see people speculating on new cards (even made up ones) that would help change the meta rather than bashing tier-1 decks you think are no-fun.
So there is really no discussion about the state of the meta in this thread it's all about a meta of fantasy.
The two-month or whatever it was "ban Splinter Twin" talk here was just a half-assed attempt at what I've stated above.
Consider that the 'meta' for local events will very likely be nothing like the GP meta, or SCG meta, or Bob's Meta, or Jill's meta.
To have this thread be about 'meta' is even more pointless than it is to be about ban's and unbans.
Probe was an extremely powerful card and for a long time I thought it shouldn`t have been banned, and its ban brought many of the consequences we are seeing now. Cfusion has a point with Fatal Push. Specifically DS decks are a nightmare for those pump decks. In fact, I'm actually sure it's not Push specifically that would have made their lives complicated, but the DS decks themselves. First DS Jund and now Grixis DS.
But at the same time Probe is the perfect card for such decks and it would have probably made them way too good. So in the end, I believe Probe was the right ban even for the wrong reasons, or more specifically, because the real reasons didn't exist. And Storm would also be pushed by it.
As for Bloo, you can believe this or not as there's not way to prove it, but Bloo would be tier 1 with it, of that I have no doubt. With all the changes made to the deck, it's actually better now than it was with Probe. Meaning, the optimized but Probeless version is better than the rough Probe one. A new optimized version with the explosiveness Probe added and the lasting power it has now (I would be playing 16 free spells and 16 cantrips) would be brutal.
We'll never see it though, and that's fine.
Banning Probe was a bad decision that time made good.
But it's important that people know that back in the day, when Probe was banned, Tron was in the middle of tier 2 as almost always, Bant Eldrazi had been pushed well out the top10, E Tron was a joke deck that was actually barely "a deck" and Titanshift had been completely kicked to the fringes of the format. And I know this for a fact, because back in the day Bloo was trending and I paid A LOT of attention to the metagame and its numbers, shares etc.
So let's not forget that all these decks that for many are causing very negative effects on Modern are here because they killed or crippled the only decks that really preyed on them. This has been said many times though, and was said back in the day. Now, this is what we have to work with. A tier 1 and upper tier 2 full of aggro-combo decks wasn't pretty either, and I'm not even going to say that it was actually better than a tier 1 and upper tier 2 full of valakut, tron and eldrazi decks. But let's not lie to ourselves, that's the deal we made when we banned Probe.
All in all? I think the right move back in the day would have been to hit 2 of those 3 decks. They should have anticipated what was obvious for anyone with eyes, that those pump decks were needed to keep tron/eldrazi/valakut in check. So they should have gone for something like what I did in the Nuke Solution: acknowledge at least one of those decks is needed to preserve the balance and hit the rest.
This could have been accomplished by hitting either Become Immense (kills Infect and DSZ) or Temur Battle Rage (kills DSZ and Bloo). But... I said "back in the day", because had they done that then DS decks would have got mainstream anyway (this is fact, DS Jund already existed before the banning of Probe) and then they would have needed to hit those, causing even more feelbads.
Conclusion? Yeah ok, all taken into account Probe was the best ban for the wrong reasons, and now we have to face this toxic Tier 1 that will have to be fixed at some point but I guess it's somewhat better than what we would have otherwise.
Honestly, what they should have done was not ban anything at that announcement. Fatal Push was entering the format, and Fatal Push was incredibly good against a lot of the decks that ran Gitaxian Probe. They should have declined to ban anything then, seen what Fatal Push did, and then ban Gitaxian Probe (and Golgari Grave-Troll) if they still thought it necessary. That way there'd be no need to endlessly speculate if the Gitaxian Probe ban was necessary with Fatal Push being legal.
I suppose someone can claim that's often true of bans, that maybe things would have been different with cards from the next set, but Fatal Push was so tailor-made to beat the decks that ran Gitaxian Probe at the time that it really seemed premature to ban it when they did.
I'm not too enthusiastic about this recent discussion.
For starter, like many, I think the speculation of what would happen without the current tier-1 is both mostly hot air and entirely pointless. It's not that I mind people shooting from the hip and giving their opinion, but that I find the discussion to be a symptom of a lack of mental rigor. Any meta has a tier one, every tier set will have its detractor, every deck has its lover and hater. You'd replace one set of dissatisfied players with another. I'd rather read people discuss how to make some decks better than how to destroy the ones that exist. I find the current displayed hate for the existing tier-1 a bit tasteless.
Furthermore, the discussion seems to take for granted two things. One, that the current tier-1 suite is dominating. It's not true. Multiple recent results have shown other decks taking the crown in a given tournament. There is no huge gulf between tier-1 and tier-2. So why want to change the tier-1? It does not extinguish variety, that's just not true. Two, history bears this out, a single new card can push tier-2 deck into tier-1. Look at Baral making storm better for example. So, I would much prefer to see people speculating on new cards (even made up ones) that would help change the meta rather than bashing tier-1 decks you think are no-fun.
Seriously.
'I don't like the decks in tier 1 so lets ban a card from each of them and then there's no reason that everything shouldn't be fine and if you think there is then you don't know how to read or understand reason' is what I've been getting from the last ~4 pages (of course this clearly means that I can't read or understand reason).
What the heck happened to Sheridan? I mean I know he had to work more but it's been awhile since I've seen a post from the resident voice of reason in this ***** show.
'I don't like the decks in tier 1 so lets ban a card from each of them and then there's no reason that everything shouldn't be fine and if you think there is then you don't know how to read or understand reason' is what I've been getting from the last ~4 pages (of course this clearly means that I can't read or understand reason).
And let's be honest, the top decks right now almost all encourage toxic, unfun gameplay and make for pretty miserable games dictated by high matchup/sideboard variance.
Good luck getting that many changes in any realistic time period, mind.
The closest one I can see is a Temple banning, mostly because if there's a lot of Eldrazi Tron at the Modern PT, I expect WotC might reconsider things.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
Hey guys, I'm coming back from a near 2 year absence from MTG. Can someone give me the quick rundown on the last 2 years and the modern meta? What are the decks to beat right now?
I had a quick look on mtggoldfish and I must say Modern looks much healthier than it did when I went on break. There's an actual control deck doing well?!
What's the chance of a Bloodbraid Elf unban? I still have the FNM promos waiting to go...
Welcome back!
Yes, your intuition is correct; modern *is* healthier since you took a break. It's undergone some growing pains and a series of slightly dodgy metagames (and one genuinely bad moment) but right now and for the moment it's stable, interaction is king and modern is doing well.
General jist & things you might consider relevant:
- Fatal Push was printed, and Gitaxian Probe banned, singlehandedly changing the landscape by removing infect from contention and reducing the stock of cards like tarmogoyf significantly. Bolt is dead, long live bolt. The metric for what makes a playable creature has shifted and one-drops or three-drops are now more attractive. The shifts and shudders in the modern landscape have been enormous but things are settling. Notably for an old-guard such as yourself, you'll perhaps be surprised to see that jund has taken a heavy hit and now sits somewhere around tier 3 (for the moment at least).
- Took a while but people finally figured out how to make death's shadow work, and for a while it was the single best thing to be doing in the format, replacing jund and abzan as the de-facto midrange strategy. Things have settle now and people have transitioned from jund to abzan, esper to grixis. It's tier 1 but perfectly fine, and there's a good argument to be made that the existence of this deck is at least partially responsible for the current stability in the format. Notably plays more discard than traditional jund/grixis lists.
- Gx Tron has dwindled and morphed into a leaner, lower curve eldrazi deck to deal with the heavier interaction and discard we're seeing at the moment. It still occupies a similar space in the metagame and retains a bunch of the same cards but the deck itself is more akin to legacy stompy than the karn-or-nothing deck of old.
- very recently, scapeshift decks have found their muse and dropped through the breach to become straight value ramp decks with a valakut finish. They are in a good spot right now, and many lists are running prismatic omen as well.
- Storm has seen a key printing in what's effectively Goblins 5-8, allowing for more consistent cost reduction. This has allowed the deck to adopt gifts ungiven as an engine and the deck has steadily risen in popularity over the last few months. It's a nice addition to the roster.
- Control has had a renaissance; UW, esper and now grixis and jeskai lists are common in the broader metagame. It's more prevalent at FNM level but nobody can deny the recent surge in popularity.
- Melira chord lists died along with infect, and have morphed (with a new helpful addition in Amonkhet) into a solid, competitive abzan collected company deck with a very slim and achievable infinite-mana combo. It flutters between tier 2 and 1, and is one of the better lists currently settling down in the metagame.
- A few decks such as merfolk, ad nauseam and such have taken a hit in terms of metagame suitability but are still out in force at tournaments, occasionally spiking a top-8
- Interestingly, amulet titan (a tier 3 deck after summer Bloom was banned) crops up more than you'd expect in top-8s and regional tournaments.
- Grishoalbrand and delver decks have suffered.
- Elves got really good for a short while & may be getting a nice new toy with the release of ixalan. Time will tell.
- Affinity is still affinity.
A couple of notable new cards to look up (sorry can't link, on phone);
Walking ballista
Vizier of remedies (combo with devoted druid)
Fatal push
Hope that helps!
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I love me some Vindicate, and while I understand that precisely the fact that it hits lands is what makes it valuable in the format, the fact that it does is its undoing. It is extremely unlikely (I'd actually wager on impossible) for Wizards to let that into Standard. The same goes for Fire // Ice due to the Ice side (as a side note, would the card see play at all if the Ice side said non-land?).
Wizards is paranoid about land destruction as a strategy to the point that they wouldn't do good land destruction spells even if Standard got a regenerating 0-mana artifact that passively gave lands you control hexproof.
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Vorthos-y Johnny. All will be One
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
What is good land destruction? Strip Mine and Wasteland? Big man isn't unstoppable and is kinda supposed to be good against midrange and control, yet midrange and control want crazy good answers so they can be 50/50 or better against literally everything.
Wizards is paranoid about land destruction as a strategy to the point that they wouldn't do good land destruction spells even if Standard got a regenerating 0-mana artifact that passively gave lands you control hexproof.
Finally, an interesting idea.
People want stronger land hate, which I don't agree with, but giving anti-land hate cards makes sense too. People complain about wanting answers to land-based strategies, but land hate is difficult to answer. There's no way to stop cards like Ghost Quarter and Tec Edge. Once Fulminator Mage hits the field, it can't be stopped. Spreading Seas (and enchantments in general) can be hard to remove for non-green/white decks. Crucible of Worlds is nice, but it's slow both in terms of cost and tempo loss (and its expensive af).
I was checking the Tier 1 (Modern) forum, and I realized that currently we got in Tier 1:
2 Aggro decks (Affinity & Burn)
2 Midrange decks (Death's Shadow & Eldrazi Tron)
2 Combo decks (Storm & Scapeshift)
1 Control deck (UW Control)
I think this is the telling of a really nice and healthy meta.
IMO, the current Tier 1 decks are -
1. Grixis Death's Shadow
2. Eldrazi Tron
3. Titanshift
4. Affinity
and that's it. Nothing is really on the level of those 3 decks. You could possibly just say GDS and E Tron are Tier 1 and I could buy that. But, I don't think UW Control or Burn is in Tier 1 currently. UWR is probably better than UW right now. It's close to Tier 1.
You may think that it's healthy, but someone else may think this -
1. Interaction like crazy, finishes with 1 mana 6/6s or bigger.
2-4. All non interactive decks, E Tron or Titanshift being the most so with TKS/Dismember/Chalice or Bolt/Sweltering Suns/Valakut triggers.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I was checking the Tier 1 (Modern) forum, and I realized that currently we got in Tier 1:
2 Aggro decks (Affinity & Burn)
2 Midrange decks (Death's Shadow & Eldrazi Tron)
2 Combo decks (Storm & Scapeshift)
1 Control deck (UW Control)
I think this is the telling of a really nice and healthy meta.
IMO, the current Tier 1 decks are -
1. Grixis Death's Shadow
2. Eldrazi Tron
3. Titanshift
4. Affinity
and that's it. Nothing is really on the level of those 3 decks. You could possibly just say GDS and E Tron are Tier 1 and I could buy that. But, I don't think UW Control or Burn is in Tier 1 currently. UWR is probably better than UW right now. It's close to Tier 1.
You may think that it's healthy, but someone else may think this -
1. Interaction like crazy, finishes with 1 mana 6/6s or bigger.
2-4. All non interactive decks, E Tron or Titanshift being the most so with TKS/Dismember/Chalice or Bolt/Sweltering Suns/Valakut triggers.
Yeah, ever since we stopped getting any reliable tier data from MTGO, our organizational Tier structure here is just an arbitrary mess. UW Control has done nothing for quite a while. Jeskai Geist has been doing OK, but nothing close to the Shadow/ETron/Valakut/Affinity levels. Those decks are heads and shoulders above just about everything else in the format. I think our lack of data is exactly why we don't really see how things actually are (despite seeing MASSIVE day 2 numbers for those 4 decks), because we are blinded by variance-driven Top 8 placements in random paper events.
This is certainly true. I am also basing my Tiering on the local scene, including the many PPTQs I attended. The odd part is that I have seen a lot of Burn at these PPTQs, but my theory is that the pilots are not winning the PPTQs, so the number is not going down.
I will admit that I could certainly be wrong about my Tiering, but it seems to pretty much jive (or close to it) with SCG Open and Grand Prix results. But yes, the lack of data certainly sucks. I will never know (or want to know to be more precise) why they chose to minimize data.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Wizards is paranoid about land destruction as a strategy to the point that they wouldn't do good land destruction spells even if Standard got a regenerating 0-mana artifact that passively gave lands you control hexproof.
Finally, an interesting idea.
People want stronger land hate, which I don't agree with, but giving anti-land hate cards makes sense too. People complain about wanting answers to land-based strategies, but land hate is difficult to answer. There's no way to stop cards like Ghost Quarter and Tec Edge. Once Fulminator Mage hits the field, it can't be stopped. Spreading Seas (and enchantments in general) can be hard to remove for non-green/white decks. Crucible of Worlds is nice, but it's slow both in terms of cost and tempo loss (and its expensive af).
Your logic is flawed to the core. You are the one that casting threats, and the blue mages are the ones that try to answer them.
Magic is a nice game for many spectators and players, when it's most interactive. In other words, they are trying to create the situation in which a game has back and forths.
On top of that, in Modern the one who is casting threats has almost always the upper hand. In other words, the one who is trying to make mana ahead of the curve and gain more mana than he should have thus cast a powerful eldrazi early one(let's say a turn 4 or turn 5 Ulamog) should be the one who is supposed to be stopped. If the control player can not successfully stop him at at least 4 out of the 10 games(and in modern a blue control player can't stop an eldra tron or a tron player), then the game becomes too uninteractive, since the control player who is trying to force interaction is being "kicked" out of the game.
From all of those, you can safely deduct that the control players need strong answers to at least be able to stop a respectable amount of times the unfair players(a thing that is being sucessfully done at Legacy) if you want to have a non-linear, interesting, skill based games where the decisions actually mean something, instead of having "2 ships passing in the night" games.
After all, if you are going to have many of those, Wizards will act and ban something.
TL&DR: If the ramp or the unfair player is unstoppable, thus Modern becomes too linear, Wizards will act and ban your card(and Eldrazi Temple seems like the best candidate for now-even if the chance is not too real).
All of the land hate in Modern is either too slow or too bad. We need better land hate if you want your deck to be safe.
gkourou glad to see you can look past the bias. You sway in and out of it but this is certainly a good example at wisely looking at the big picture.
The ideal format is one where we have a balance between linearity and non linearity. Otherwise we either have a midrange fest or 2 ships passing in the night. (Personally I would prefer the midrange fest over the other) But we mostly have the other one right now in the top tier of the game.(with the exception of Gds)
This is why I feel modern is currently unhealthy atm.
And unless we get better answers to this, and get more strategic diversity amongst the top tier long term, the best answer will be a ban. which will inevitably happen with modern being a pro tour format.
gkourou just because you scream the loudest and most frequently doesn't mean you're right. You can shout down anyone that posts something that disagrees with your feeling Blue/control should have answers for everything and anything "non-interactive" or "linear" tier 1 deck is unhealthy. Also, your incessant personal crusade against Eldrazi Temple, which isn't even putting up big results, is definitely getting old.
Also, your incessant personal crusade against Eldrazi Temple, which isn't even putting up big results, is definitely getting old.
I'd like to add that, personally, I have nothing wrong with Eldrazi Temple as long as Eldrazi are all 8+ mana Titans or something big and crazy. The land is all kinds of broken when it's casting massively pushed creatures, that are already insane value for their printed cost, 1-3 turns early. The problem isn't Temple, it's stuff like TKS, Reality Smasher, and all the other low-cost hyper-value Oath Eldrazi creatures being powered out several turns early with incredible reliability. They have been a cancer on the format for nearly two years, and will continue to be so as long as they (and Temple) are legal.
What it seems like is the midrange/control players are upset about Eldrazi Temple because it enables a deck that is inherently powerful against a midrange or control strategy with there being no way they can just shut them down with a single card or two. I think it is a healthy from a design perspective on Modern. There is always going to be a bigger fish. In this case, you can beat Eldrazi with decks like Valakut, Affinity, Merfolk, Burn or Storm. But to expect a midrange/control archetype to actually have an answer or positive matchup against every strategy in the format isn't a good format to idolize. Personally, I think its perfectly healthy to have an Eldrazi deck, look at Legacy which has had Stax/Prison strategies for years without ruining the format. Without Eldrazi Temple I cant really see there being an Eldrazi deck that continues to exist in Modern, its really what is keeping them competitive.
Plus, it isn't like removing Temple is going to stop Tron or Valakut from picking up the slack from the Eldrazi decks. Inherently, through deck design, those strategies will be powerful against midrangey go long decks. That's what gives them an angle on the format. Without those decks that beat up on midrange/control, the format would devolve into who can go bigger again anyways.
Listening to midrange/control players demonize Eldrazi Temple is like listening to Legacy Leovold players complain that Chalice of the Void shuts down 50% of their spells, that's the risk you take in your deck design. But Eldrazi Temple is not the evil you seek, it's the fact that Eldrazi do not trade well with removal on almost any level aside from Verdicts.
This is all coming from someone who loses to Eldrazi Tron on the weekly. I dislike the deck but appreciate it and understand its role in the metagame.
Also, your incessant personal crusade against Eldrazi Temple, which isn't even putting up big results, is definitely getting old.
I'd like to add that, personally, I have nothing wrong with Eldrazi Temple as long as Eldrazi are all 8+ mana Titans or something big and crazy. The land is all kinds of broken when it's casting massively pushed creatures, that are already insane value for their printed cost, 1-3 turns early. The problem isn't Temple, it's stuff like TKS, Reality Smasher, and all the other low-cost hyper-value Oath Eldrazi creatures being powered out several turns early with incredible reliability. They have been a cancer on the format for nearly two years, and will continue to be so as long as they (and Temple) are legal.
TKS and Smasher are really strong, yes. They're why I play the deck. But so are cards like Tasigur, Tarmogoyf, etc. Like a wise person on this thread likes to say, if you're not doing something overpowered in Modern, you don't stand a chance.
Also, your incessant personal crusade against Eldrazi Temple, which isn't even putting up big results, is definitely getting old.
I'd like to add that, personally, I have nothing wrong with Eldrazi Temple as long as Eldrazi are all 8+ mana Titans or something big and crazy. The land is all kinds of broken when it's casting massively pushed creatures, that are already insane value for their printed cost, 1-3 turns early. The problem isn't Temple, it's stuff like TKS, Reality Smasher, and all the other low-cost hyper-value Oath Eldrazi creatures being powered out several turns early with incredible reliability. They have been a cancer on the format for nearly two years, and will continue to be so as long as they (and Temple) are legal.
TKS and Smasher are really strong, yes. They're why I play the deck. But so are cards like Tasigur, Tarmogoyf, etc. Like a wise person on this thread likes to say, if you're not doing something overpowered in Modern, you don't stand a chance.
except tasigur and goyf are rarely on the same power level as tks and reality smasher on turn 2-3.
and its those situations/varience, that make dealing with those decks much too difficult for anything but an opposing broken deck to keep up with.
to be fair death shadow is busted as well.
but the whole point of the discussion on the last couple pages is how much more powerful/high varience and broken the top tiers are vs the rest of the meta. and how (mostly) linear these decks are( 2 ships passing in the night). I hardly could imagine much enjoyment from players and spectators in such a meta game. of course there will be a (bg/x dnt uw/x ect) finish from time to time. but overall I can see why some consider this meta( especially the top tiers) to be toxic atm.
Because of this, I wouldn't be surprised if they shook up the format with some bans before or after the pro tour in order to make the top tiers less stale and less linear.
Also, your incessant personal crusade against Eldrazi Temple, which isn't even putting up big results, is definitely getting old.
I'd like to add that, personally, I have nothing wrong with Eldrazi Temple as long as Eldrazi are all 8+ mana Titans or something big and crazy. The land is all kinds of broken when it's casting massively pushed creatures, that are already insane value for their printed cost, 1-3 turns early. The problem isn't Temple, it's stuff like TKS, Reality Smasher, and all the other low-cost hyper-value Oath Eldrazi creatures being powered out several turns early with incredible reliability. They have been a cancer on the format for nearly two years, and will continue to be so as long as they (and Temple) are legal.
TKS and Smasher are really strong, yes. They're why I play the deck. But so are cards like Tasigur, Tarmogoyf, etc. Like a wise person on this thread likes to say, if you're not doing something overpowered in Modern, you don't stand a chance.
Tasigur/Tarmogofy don't protect themselves, which is the primary difference when it comes to comparing these threats. With Tasigur/Goyf, you need to have previously cleared the way with a Thoughtseize before dropping them, or you need to have Stubborn Denial backup.
TKS and Reality Smasher are threat and protection in a single card. That's why Tasigur/Gofy aren't "snowball" cards as gkourou has been calling them and TKS and Smasher are.
edit: I want to add that I don't think E-Tron decks are too much for the format, but I think the lack of safety valve cards for this type of strategy puts this archetype at a higher risk for the format. It doesn't necessarily have to be "land hate" that cripples the archetype, but I think more options need to be around to combat these types of strategies.
Also, your incessant personal crusade against Eldrazi Temple, which isn't even putting up big results, is definitely getting old.
I'd like to add that, personally, I have nothing wrong with Eldrazi Temple as long as Eldrazi are all 8+ mana Titans or something big and crazy. The land is all kinds of broken when it's casting massively pushed creatures, that are already insane value for their printed cost, 1-3 turns early. The problem isn't Temple, it's stuff like TKS, Reality Smasher, and all the other low-cost hyper-value Oath Eldrazi creatures being powered out several turns early with incredible reliability. They have been a cancer on the format for nearly two years, and will continue to be so as long as they (and Temple) are legal.
TKS and Smasher are really strong, yes. They're why I play the deck. But so are cards like Tasigur, Tarmogoyf, etc. Like a wise person on this thread likes to say, if you're not doing something overpowered in Modern, you don't stand a chance.
except tasigur and goyf are rarely on the same power level as tks and reality smasher on turn 2-3.
and its those situations/varience, that make dealing with those decks much too difficult for anything but an opposing broken deck to keep up with.
to be fair death shadow is busted as well.
but the whole point of the discussion on the last couple pages is how much more powerful/high varience and broken the top tiers are vs the rest of the meta. and how linear these decks are( 2 ships passing in the night), even gds with nut starts/kills is relatively linear. I hardly could imagine much enjoyment from players and spectators in such a meta game. of course there will be a (bg/x dnt uw/x ect) finish from time to time. but overall I can see why some consider this meta( especially the top tiers) to be toxic atm.
Because of this, I wouldn't be surprised if they shook up the format with some bans before or after the pro tour in order to make the top tiers less stale and less linear.
In today's Modern you can't be 100% reactive, sadly. Grixis Shadow is a good deck, because it can also present a fast clock sometimes. Grixis Shadow or Jeskai Queller are the evolution of Midranhe and Control, respectively in Modern. You can't play purely reactive draw go, sadly.
and that is to be expected. you have to be proactive in a proactive game. which is why I dont get why they arent giving uw/x decks sfm to help with this. but thats another discussion altogether.
while being proactive is what one must do. I think a line needs to be drawn on how powerful a deck can be in its archetype, as to allow more diversity amongst that archtype and also have less high variance match ups when facing opposing or even same archtypes. this creates less ships passing in the night and more skill in games.
Agreed. It's really a simple matter to create another subforum here and pin it to the top strictly for discussion of cards to ban/unban in the Modern format. A thread titled in any way w/ "State of the Meta" should not include discussion about banning/unbanning cards, rather it should center on the discussion of decks and cards actually legal in the format. This, imho, is what most players would rather talk about and especially READ about even if they don't want to start or engage in conversation themselves. This particular thread is dominated by about 12 posters who say the same thing every day all day long, and they only focus on what they want banned/unbanned. So there is really no discussion about the state of the meta in this thread it's all about a meta of fantasy.
The two-month or whatever it was "ban Splinter Twin" talk here was just a half-assed attempt at what I've stated above.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
I'm down. It shouldn't be banned (and probably never should have been, but that's another story). But my horse in the race is with Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Preordain because these are tools that I personally would love to use. I probably am more likely to utilize Stoneforge Mystic as well since I did it a bunch in RW Landfall in Standard, although I never did enjoy Stoneblade decks much in Legacy.
But the card, Bloodbraid Elf, literally does nada in today's meta. Players should be happy to unban cards that straight up get beat by the current Tier 1 strategies. Does Grixis Shadow care? Barely. Does E Tron care? Not much. Does Titanshift care? Not in the slightest. Any more boxes to check off? Not to mention, within the lower Tier strategies, UWR type decks beat Jund. Isn't it time to give Jund at least tools to win some sort of matchup? (and yes, I know Tyler Lutes was 12-0 with Jund at some point during the SCG Open)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)However I think with the opt reprint Preordain is going to be banned a while longer till they see how that shakes out.
Consider that the 'meta' for local events will very likely be nothing like the GP meta, or SCG meta, or Bob's Meta, or Jill's meta.
To have this thread be about 'meta' is even more pointless than it is to be about ban's and unbans.
Spirits
I suppose someone can claim that's often true of bans, that maybe things would have been different with cards from the next set, but Fatal Push was so tailor-made to beat the decks that ran Gitaxian Probe at the time that it really seemed premature to ban it when they did.
'I don't like the decks in tier 1 so lets ban a card from each of them and then there's no reason that everything shouldn't be fine and if you think there is then you don't know how to read or understand reason' is what I've been getting from the last ~4 pages (of course this clearly means that I can't read or understand reason).
What the heck happened to Sheridan? I mean I know he had to work more but it's been awhile since I've seen a post from the resident voice of reason in this ***** show.
Well, it's not like Wizards didn't set that precedent already....
And let's be honest, the top decks right now almost all encourage toxic, unfun gameplay and make for pretty miserable games dictated by high matchup/sideboard variance.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
The closest one I can see is a Temple banning, mostly because if there's a lot of Eldrazi Tron at the Modern PT, I expect WotC might reconsider things.
Welcome back!
Yes, your intuition is correct; modern *is* healthier since you took a break. It's undergone some growing pains and a series of slightly dodgy metagames (and one genuinely bad moment) but right now and for the moment it's stable, interaction is king and modern is doing well.
General jist & things you might consider relevant:
- Fatal Push was printed, and Gitaxian Probe banned, singlehandedly changing the landscape by removing infect from contention and reducing the stock of cards like tarmogoyf significantly. Bolt is dead, long live bolt. The metric for what makes a playable creature has shifted and one-drops or three-drops are now more attractive. The shifts and shudders in the modern landscape have been enormous but things are settling. Notably for an old-guard such as yourself, you'll perhaps be surprised to see that jund has taken a heavy hit and now sits somewhere around tier 3 (for the moment at least).
- Took a while but people finally figured out how to make death's shadow work, and for a while it was the single best thing to be doing in the format, replacing jund and abzan as the de-facto midrange strategy. Things have settle now and people have transitioned from jund to abzan, esper to grixis. It's tier 1 but perfectly fine, and there's a good argument to be made that the existence of this deck is at least partially responsible for the current stability in the format. Notably plays more discard than traditional jund/grixis lists.
- Gx Tron has dwindled and morphed into a leaner, lower curve eldrazi deck to deal with the heavier interaction and discard we're seeing at the moment. It still occupies a similar space in the metagame and retains a bunch of the same cards but the deck itself is more akin to legacy stompy than the karn-or-nothing deck of old.
- very recently, scapeshift decks have found their muse and dropped through the breach to become straight value ramp decks with a valakut finish. They are in a good spot right now, and many lists are running prismatic omen as well.
- Storm has seen a key printing in what's effectively Goblins 5-8, allowing for more consistent cost reduction. This has allowed the deck to adopt gifts ungiven as an engine and the deck has steadily risen in popularity over the last few months. It's a nice addition to the roster.
- Control has had a renaissance; UW, esper and now grixis and jeskai lists are common in the broader metagame. It's more prevalent at FNM level but nobody can deny the recent surge in popularity.
- Melira chord lists died along with infect, and have morphed (with a new helpful addition in Amonkhet) into a solid, competitive abzan collected company deck with a very slim and achievable infinite-mana combo. It flutters between tier 2 and 1, and is one of the better lists currently settling down in the metagame.
- A few decks such as merfolk, ad nauseam and such have taken a hit in terms of metagame suitability but are still out in force at tournaments, occasionally spiking a top-8
- Interestingly, amulet titan (a tier 3 deck after summer Bloom was banned) crops up more than you'd expect in top-8s and regional tournaments.
- Grishoalbrand and delver decks have suffered.
- Elves got really good for a short while & may be getting a nice new toy with the release of ixalan. Time will tell.
- Affinity is still affinity.
A couple of notable new cards to look up (sorry can't link, on phone);
Walking ballista
Vizier of remedies (combo with devoted druid)
Fatal push
Hope that helps!
I think this is the telling of a really nice and healthy meta.
Wizards is paranoid about land destruction as a strategy to the point that they wouldn't do good land destruction spells even if Standard got a regenerating 0-mana artifact that passively gave lands you control hexproof.
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
Finally, an interesting idea.
People want stronger land hate, which I don't agree with, but giving anti-land hate cards makes sense too. People complain about wanting answers to land-based strategies, but land hate is difficult to answer. There's no way to stop cards like Ghost Quarter and Tec Edge. Once Fulminator Mage hits the field, it can't be stopped. Spreading Seas (and enchantments in general) can be hard to remove for non-green/white decks. Crucible of Worlds is nice, but it's slow both in terms of cost and tempo loss (and its expensive af).
IMO, the current Tier 1 decks are -
1. Grixis Death's Shadow
2. Eldrazi Tron
3. Titanshift
4. Affinity
and that's it. Nothing is really on the level of those 3 decks. You could possibly just say GDS and E Tron are Tier 1 and I could buy that. But, I don't think UW Control or Burn is in Tier 1 currently. UWR is probably better than UW right now. It's close to Tier 1.
You may think that it's healthy, but someone else may think this -
1. Interaction like crazy, finishes with 1 mana 6/6s or bigger.
2-4. All non interactive decks, E Tron or Titanshift being the most so with TKS/Dismember/Chalice or Bolt/Sweltering Suns/Valakut triggers.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Yeah, ever since we stopped getting any reliable tier data from MTGO, our organizational Tier structure here is just an arbitrary mess. UW Control has done nothing for quite a while. Jeskai Geist has been doing OK, but nothing close to the Shadow/ETron/Valakut/Affinity levels. Those decks are heads and shoulders above just about everything else in the format. I think our lack of data is exactly why we don't really see how things actually are (despite seeing MASSIVE day 2 numbers for those 4 decks), because we are blinded by variance-driven Top 8 placements in random paper events.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I will admit that I could certainly be wrong about my Tiering, but it seems to pretty much jive (or close to it) with SCG Open and Grand Prix results. But yes, the lack of data certainly sucks. I will never know (or want to know to be more precise) why they chose to minimize data.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)The ideal format is one where we have a balance between linearity and non linearity. Otherwise we either have a midrange fest or 2 ships passing in the night. (Personally I would prefer the midrange fest over the other) But we mostly have the other one right now in the top tier of the game.(with the exception of Gds)
This is why I feel modern is currently unhealthy atm.
And unless we get better answers to this, and get more strategic diversity amongst the top tier long term, the best answer will be a ban. which will inevitably happen with modern being a pro tour format.
decks playing:
none
I'd like to add that, personally, I have nothing wrong with Eldrazi Temple as long as Eldrazi are all 8+ mana Titans or something big and crazy. The land is all kinds of broken when it's casting massively pushed creatures, that are already insane value for their printed cost, 1-3 turns early. The problem isn't Temple, it's stuff like TKS, Reality Smasher, and all the other low-cost hyper-value Oath Eldrazi creatures being powered out several turns early with incredible reliability. They have been a cancer on the format for nearly two years, and will continue to be so as long as they (and Temple) are legal.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Plus, it isn't like removing Temple is going to stop Tron or Valakut from picking up the slack from the Eldrazi decks. Inherently, through deck design, those strategies will be powerful against midrangey go long decks. That's what gives them an angle on the format. Without those decks that beat up on midrange/control, the format would devolve into who can go bigger again anyways.
Listening to midrange/control players demonize Eldrazi Temple is like listening to Legacy Leovold players complain that Chalice of the Void shuts down 50% of their spells, that's the risk you take in your deck design. But Eldrazi Temple is not the evil you seek, it's the fact that Eldrazi do not trade well with removal on almost any level aside from Verdicts.
This is all coming from someone who loses to Eldrazi Tron on the weekly. I dislike the deck but appreciate it and understand its role in the metagame.
RG BBE Ponza
UX Eldrazi Tron
UR Jace Breach
TKS and Smasher are really strong, yes. They're why I play the deck. But so are cards like Tasigur, Tarmogoyf, etc. Like a wise person on this thread likes to say, if you're not doing something overpowered in Modern, you don't stand a chance.
and its those situations/varience, that make dealing with those decks much too difficult for anything but an opposing broken deck to keep up with.
to be fair death shadow is busted as well.
but the whole point of the discussion on the last couple pages is how much more powerful/high varience and broken the top tiers are vs the rest of the meta. and how (mostly) linear these decks are( 2 ships passing in the night). I hardly could imagine much enjoyment from players and spectators in such a meta game. of course there will be a (bg/x dnt uw/x ect) finish from time to time. but overall I can see why some consider this meta( especially the top tiers) to be toxic atm.
Because of this, I wouldn't be surprised if they shook up the format with some bans before or after the pro tour in order to make the top tiers less stale and less linear.
decks playing:
none
Tasigur/Tarmogofy don't protect themselves, which is the primary difference when it comes to comparing these threats. With Tasigur/Goyf, you need to have previously cleared the way with a Thoughtseize before dropping them, or you need to have Stubborn Denial backup.
TKS and Reality Smasher are threat and protection in a single card. That's why Tasigur/Gofy aren't "snowball" cards as gkourou has been calling them and TKS and Smasher are.
edit: I want to add that I don't think E-Tron decks are too much for the format, but I think the lack of safety valve cards for this type of strategy puts this archetype at a higher risk for the format. It doesn't necessarily have to be "land hate" that cripples the archetype, but I think more options need to be around to combat these types of strategies.
while being proactive is what one must do. I think a line needs to be drawn on how powerful a deck can be in its archetype, as to allow more diversity amongst that archtype and also have less high variance match ups when facing opposing or even same archtypes. this creates less ships passing in the night and more skill in games.
decks playing:
none