and yet its TOP tier. ive seen other unfair decks hit alot harder than storm has been. again, why does it get a pass?
and now we have opt incoming.
We might as well complain about Affinity and the Artifact lands being banned. Or Green Sun's Zenith and Elves winning every once and then. This logic has no end, because it has no good premise to it's conclusion.
Look. xxhellfirexx3, I accept that your opinion is a valid one, and that your opinion probably represents a reasonable sector of the Modern playerbase.
However, your arguments are almost exclusively "Deck [X] I don't like is something other than control or midrange. Why have WotC not banned it into the ground?" And the answer is simply "because WotC and the majority of players accept that having a wider degree of playstyles is healthy for the game".
Not every player enjoys playing an interactive, grindy game. Those players tend to be drawn to decks wherein the grindy, interactive game is minimised. Your arguments tend to indicate that you think that those players aren't "as interested in format health" or "as legitimate Magic players" as you are, and it's getting old.
Also, frankly... Storm loses super badly to the decks you profess to prefer - control and midrange strategies. At this point, it feels like you're complaining just for the sake of complaining.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
Let's keep in mind that, as far as what has been brought up in this thread, Caleb is the only person saying Opt makes Storm tier 1. As good of a player as he is, one person isn't much to go off of. That being said, Storm is good to have in the format. It gives players who want a linear combo strategy a deck to play. From what I remember, we haven't had one of those be successful since Amulet Bloom.
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"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
and yet its TOP tier. ive seen other unfair decks hit alot harder than storm has been. again, why does it get a pass?
and now we have opt incoming.
We might as well complain about Affinity and the Artifact lands being banned. Or Green Sun's Zenith and Elves winning every once and then. This logic has no end, because it has no good premise to it's conclusion.
Truthfully, it is tier 1. I was directing my point more towards the validity of one person saying something is tier 1 makes the deck tier 1. One person doesn't do it, but the deck has seen enough success that it is at least tier 1.5, closer to tier 1
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"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
The list of cards banned from storm is rather interesting. It's like they know this deck is a problem, but just can't bring themselves to ban the actual storm cards and wipe it out of the format. Compared to how they completely removed other decks, it is odd that storm just keeps getting small nerfs. How many times do you have to ban cards from a deck before we admit it is just not healthy for the format?
The list of cards banned from storm is rather interesting. It's like they know this deck is a problem, but just can't bring themselves to ban the actual storm cards and wipe it out of the format. Compared to how they completely removed other decks, it is odd that storm just keeps getting small nerfs. How many times do you have to ban cards from a deck before we admit it is just not healthy for the format?
Except it is in no way currently unhealthy for the format? By any metric, by any standard. It's not dominant, not warping, can be hated from the sideboard, doesn't consistently break the T4 rule, etc. Very strange to complain about not destroying a deck with bans when that should be considered a success; the failures are the unintentionally scorched earth bans.
Unrelated -- as someone who has publicly been calling for better answers to land, I have to give credit to WoTC for Field of Ruin. It may end up being too weak, but it shows an attempt to incrementally find the right power level for that kind of answer. I appreciate that.
It's like they know this deck is a problem, but just can't bring themselves to ban the actual storm cards and wipe it out of the format. Compared to how they completely removed other decks, it is odd that storm just keeps getting small nerfs. How many times do you have to ban cards from a deck before we admit it is just not healthy for the format?
I have the same feeling. It looks like WotC thinks storm is important to the format, but they also think it can be broken af. Go figure.
The list of cards banned from storm is rather interesting. It's like they know this deck is a problem, but just can't bring themselves to ban the actual storm cards and wipe it out of the format. Compared to how they completely removed other decks, it is odd that storm just keeps getting small nerfs. How many times do you have to ban cards from a deck before we admit it is just not healthy for the format?
Except it is in no way currently unhealthy for the format? By any metric, by any standard. It's not dominant, not warping, can be hated from the sideboard, doesn't consistently break the T4 rule, etc. Very strange to complain about not destroying a deck with bans when that should be considered a success; the failures are the unintentionally scorched earth bans.
Unrelated -- as someone who has publicly been calling for better answers to land, I have to give credit to WoTC for Field of Ruin. It may end up being too weak, but it shows an attempt to incrementally find the right power level for that kind of answer. I appreciate that.
If we print enough Encroaching Wastes Eventually the rest of the game will powercreep enough to accept Wasteland!
Also: Demand erata on Encroaching Wastes to make it subtype wastes!
Anyone else find it amusing how this thread is labelled as a "Temporary" State of the Meta thread, but we're already almost at 100 pages in 2 months later? lol
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Some people in this thread are talking like Opt is going to be an automatic 4-of in Storm and will push up its power level. Both of those points very much remain to be seen. Let the Storm players test after release and prove it out one way or another before drawing conclusions.
Some people in this thread are talking like Opt is going to be an automatic 4-of in Storm and will push up its power level. Both of those points very much remain to be seen. Let the Storm players test after release and prove it out one way or another before drawing conclusions.
But...but....it's so much easier to throw around hysteria and conjecture than to actually wait and see what happens with the meta!
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In theory, it can win by turn 3, I feel as though it rarely does though
I'm not sure how you can absolutely ignore the fact that decks like that stop Titan Shift from being too good. We need decks like that. I'm sure you'll retort that then that initial deck is a problem, too, but you're so anti combo that nothing you say is objective.
You said you were a GBx player, how on earth are you typing this? I don't keep track of it for certain, but I truly would't dispute my win record being like 80% against Storm as a Jund/Junk player in the past 3 years between my fnms in Texas, PA and MTGO. I almost feel like I can count how many times I've lost to the deck on one hand as a GBx player.
The deck is significantly hampered by removal and susceptible to hand hate.
Storm is doing nothing oppressive nor is it dominating tournaments---Can we chill about opt pushing it?
Storm gets worse, and decks you claim that you like get worse in the process, decks like Abzan would suffer if Storm fell out of favor.
why didnt grapeshot get banned in the first place? instead of all those cards? wizards surely went through alot of trouble keeping it around. which is more than I can say for "you know what .dec"
Wizard went to a lot of trouble keeping it around? Let's look at those other cards, shall we?
Gitaxian Probe, Ponder, and Preordain were not banned specifically to hit Storm, especially Gitaxian Probe. Wizards of the Coast didn't go "through alot (sic) of trouble keeping it around" by banning those cards. Preordain and Ponder were just general combo bans, with Storm being just one of the decks they were out to hit, and Storm wasn't even on the radar when they banned Gitaxian Probe.
Seething Song and Rite of Flame were the only cards targeted more directly at Storm. However, the argument of "why keep Grapeshot around instead of these cards" sort of ignores the fact that some of the Storm decks didn't even run Grapeshot and were entirely on the Empty the Warrens plan (indeed, it's such a deck they cite for their banning of Rite of Flame). Given the choice to ban one card (Rite of Flame) or 2-3 cards (Grapeshot and Empty the Warrens, possibly Dragonstorm too), they went with one, particularly when one considers Rite of Flame is a fairly easily breakable card anyway. Simian Spirit Guide isn't played in Storm and it's a card that people complain about, and it's actually worse acceleration. The Seething Song ban was a little more arguable (then again, do people really want want Hive Mind to be back as a deck? Because that deck was actually a thing when Seething Song was legal), but again just banning Grapeshot just allows a return to the Empty the Warrens plan.
So at worst, we had two cards banned to avoid banning two other cards, which is hardly going out of their way to avoid banning Grapeshot and Empty the Warrens. And let's be honest, even if we banned both Grapeshot and Empty the Warrens, the only one of those cards that would be arguable to unban as a result would be Seething Song. I know some people want Preordain back, but I don't think it's Storm that's preventing them from doing so.
The list of cards banned from storm is rather interesting. It's like they know this deck is a problem, but just can't bring themselves to ban the actual storm cards and wipe it out of the format. Compared to how they completely removed other decks, it is odd that storm just keeps getting small nerfs. How many times do you have to ban cards from a deck before we admit it is just not healthy for the format?
See above. Except for Rite of Flame and Seething Song, those "small nerfs" to Storm, while nerfs, were not targeted specifically at Storm. And those cards, especially Rite of Flame, can be argued as being potentially problematic even without the Storm cards.
There are a lot more ways to stop empty the warrens than there are to stop grapeshot. With grapeshot gone some of those cards could likely come off the banlist.
Does that matter? I dont know. Just saying I would way rather face a bunch of goblin tokens without haste than twenty plus copies of deal one to the face. Most decks have sweepers in the side already, few have runed halo.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Look. xxhellfirexx3, I accept that your opinion is a valid one, and that your opinion probably represents a reasonable sector of the Modern playerbase.
However, your arguments are almost exclusively "Deck [X] I don't like is something other than control or midrange. Why have WotC not banned it into the ground?" And the answer is simply "because WotC and the majority of players accept that having a wider degree of playstyles is healthy for the game".
Not every player enjoys playing an interactive, grindy game. Those players tend to be drawn to decks wherein the grindy, interactive game is minimised. Your arguments tend to indicate that you think that those players aren't "as interested in format health" or "as legitimate Magic players" as you are, and it's getting old.
Also, frankly... Storm loses super badly to the decks you profess to prefer - control and midrange strategies. At this point, it feels like you're complaining just for the sake of complaining.
I'm fine with unfair/linear decks though is the thing.
My problem is when they make up a large majority of the meta.
I like burn and play burn. I like jund and play jund. And I like valakut and play valakut.
But just because I play these decks doesn't mean I let my bias get in the way of my views on the format.
Modern I's a linear format by majority. And I don't think that is right. Whether it be to ban/unban a card or print a better answer I feel something should be done on wizards behalf.
2 years ago: Preordain is not too good, Storm will play it but non-Storm decks will play it too, and my rigorous analysis tells me that the non-Storm decks will benefit more from it
Look. xxhellfirexx3, I accept that your opinion is a valid one, and that your opinion probably represents a reasonable sector of the Modern playerbase.
However, your arguments are almost exclusively "Deck [X] I don't like is something other than control or midrange. Why have WotC not banned it into the ground?" And the answer is simply "because WotC and the majority of players accept that having a wider degree of playstyles is healthy for the game".
Not every player enjoys playing an interactive, grindy game. Those players tend to be drawn to decks wherein the grindy, interactive game is minimised. Your arguments tend to indicate that you think that those players aren't "as interested in format health" or "as legitimate Magic players" as you are, and it's getting old.
Also, frankly... Storm loses super badly to the decks you profess to prefer - control and midrange strategies. At this point, it feels like you're complaining just for the sake of complaining.
I'm fine with unfair/linear decks though is the thing.
My problem is when they make up a large majority of the meta.
I like burn and play burn. I like jund and play jund. And I like valakut and play valakut.
But just because I play these decks doesn't mean I let my bias get in the way of my views on the format.
Modern I's a linear format by majority. And I don't think that is right. Whether it be to ban/unban a card or print a better answer I feel something should be done on wizards behalf.
Or they could just unban SDT and we can experience miracles. Nowhere near as much linear stuff then, right?
Does anyone else not worry about Storm? I bet Storm plays Opt in some number, but other decks will get at least as much use. If Storm becomes dominant, there are decks that can thrash it really well. If we have a 'Storm Winter' banning Grapeshot slows it down and increases the number of decks that can beat it. Even if all of the cantrips were unbanned, Storm can be fought, it doesn't even have the POTENTIAL to do the damage of Eldrazi
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
Does anyone else not worry about Storm? I bet Storm plays Opt in some number, but other decks will get at least as much use. If Storm becomes dominant, there are decks that can thrash it really well. If we have a 'Storm Winter' banning Grapeshot slows it down and increases the number of decks that can beat it. Even if all of the cantrips were unbanned, Storm can be fought, it doesn't even have the POTENTIAL to do the damage of Eldrazi
THe only way we'd have a "Storm Winter" is if we got Brainstorm reprinted, and Ponder, and Preordain were both unbanned. Oh, and we get Dark Ritual and Tendrills.
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decks playing:
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However, your arguments are almost exclusively "Deck [X] I don't like is something other than control or midrange. Why have WotC not banned it into the ground?" And the answer is simply "because WotC and the majority of players accept that having a wider degree of playstyles is healthy for the game".
Not every player enjoys playing an interactive, grindy game. Those players tend to be drawn to decks wherein the grindy, interactive game is minimised. Your arguments tend to indicate that you think that those players aren't "as interested in format health" or "as legitimate Magic players" as you are, and it's getting old.
Also, frankly... Storm loses super badly to the decks you profess to prefer - control and midrange strategies. At this point, it feels like you're complaining just for the sake of complaining.
Fruit can be compared to other fruit.
Oh crap I forgot where I was for a second...
Carry on.
The list of cards banned from storm is rather interesting. It's like they know this deck is a problem, but just can't bring themselves to ban the actual storm cards and wipe it out of the format. Compared to how they completely removed other decks, it is odd that storm just keeps getting small nerfs. How many times do you have to ban cards from a deck before we admit it is just not healthy for the format?
Except it is in no way currently unhealthy for the format? By any metric, by any standard. It's not dominant, not warping, can be hated from the sideboard, doesn't consistently break the T4 rule, etc. Very strange to complain about not destroying a deck with bans when that should be considered a success; the failures are the unintentionally scorched earth bans.
Unrelated -- as someone who has publicly been calling for better answers to land, I have to give credit to WoTC for Field of Ruin. It may end up being too weak, but it shows an attempt to incrementally find the right power level for that kind of answer. I appreciate that.
I have the same feeling. It looks like WotC thinks storm is important to the format, but they also think it can be broken af. Go figure.
If we print enough Encroaching Wastes Eventually the rest of the game will powercreep enough to accept Wasteland!
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
But...but....it's so much easier to throw around hysteria and conjecture than to actually wait and see what happens with the meta!
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Wastes is not currently a subtype. Wastes are Basic Lands with no Subtype. So, Encroaching Wastes having no subtype fits perfectly.
Modern
In theory, it can win by turn 3, I feel as though it rarely does though
I'm not sure how you can absolutely ignore the fact that decks like that stop Titan Shift from being too good. We need decks like that. I'm sure you'll retort that then that initial deck is a problem, too, but you're so anti combo that nothing you say is objective.
You said you were a GBx player, how on earth are you typing this? I don't keep track of it for certain, but I truly would't dispute my win record being like 80% against Storm as a Jund/Junk player in the past 3 years between my fnms in Texas, PA and MTGO. I almost feel like I can count how many times I've lost to the deck on one hand as a GBx player.
The deck is significantly hampered by removal and susceptible to hand hate.
Storm is doing nothing oppressive nor is it dominating tournaments---Can we chill about opt pushing it?
Storm gets worse, and decks you claim that you like get worse in the process, decks like Abzan would suffer if Storm fell out of favor.
Gitaxian Probe, Ponder, and Preordain were not banned specifically to hit Storm, especially Gitaxian Probe. Wizards of the Coast didn't go "through alot (sic) of trouble keeping it around" by banning those cards. Preordain and Ponder were just general combo bans, with Storm being just one of the decks they were out to hit, and Storm wasn't even on the radar when they banned Gitaxian Probe.
Seething Song and Rite of Flame were the only cards targeted more directly at Storm. However, the argument of "why keep Grapeshot around instead of these cards" sort of ignores the fact that some of the Storm decks didn't even run Grapeshot and were entirely on the Empty the Warrens plan (indeed, it's such a deck they cite for their banning of Rite of Flame). Given the choice to ban one card (Rite of Flame) or 2-3 cards (Grapeshot and Empty the Warrens, possibly Dragonstorm too), they went with one, particularly when one considers Rite of Flame is a fairly easily breakable card anyway. Simian Spirit Guide isn't played in Storm and it's a card that people complain about, and it's actually worse acceleration. The Seething Song ban was a little more arguable (then again, do people really want want Hive Mind to be back as a deck? Because that deck was actually a thing when Seething Song was legal), but again just banning Grapeshot just allows a return to the Empty the Warrens plan.
So at worst, we had two cards banned to avoid banning two other cards, which is hardly going out of their way to avoid banning Grapeshot and Empty the Warrens. And let's be honest, even if we banned both Grapeshot and Empty the Warrens, the only one of those cards that would be arguable to unban as a result would be Seething Song. I know some people want Preordain back, but I don't think it's Storm that's preventing them from doing so.
See above. Except for Rite of Flame and Seething Song, those "small nerfs" to Storm, while nerfs, were not targeted specifically at Storm. And those cards, especially Rite of Flame, can be argued as being potentially problematic even without the Storm cards.
You're right. I meant dessert. Stripmine, Tectonic Edge, Dust Bowl, Wasteland, should all be deserts!
Does that matter? I dont know. Just saying I would way rather face a bunch of goblin tokens without haste than twenty plus copies of deal one to the face. Most decks have sweepers in the side already, few have runed halo.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
My problem is when they make up a large majority of the meta.
I like burn and play burn. I like jund and play jund. And I like valakut and play valakut.
But just because I play these decks doesn't mean I let my bias get in the way of my views on the format.
Modern I's a linear format by majority. And I don't think that is right. Whether it be to ban/unban a card or print a better answer I feel something should be done on wizards behalf.
decks playing:
none
2 years ago: Preordain is not too good, Storm will play it but non-Storm decks will play it too, and my rigorous analysis tells me that the non-Storm decks will benefit more from it
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Big Johnny.
Or they could just unban SDT and we can experience miracles. Nowhere near as much linear stuff then, right?
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|
Big Johnny.
THe only way we'd have a "Storm Winter" is if we got Brainstorm reprinted, and Ponder, and Preordain were both unbanned. Oh, and we get Dark Ritual and Tendrills.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros