Hey guys, do we think UW Control or UWR Tempo (like a Jonathan Rosum-esque list) would be better to take to an open meta (like an SCG Open or a GP)?
Jeskai is significantly better in an open metagame. This is true both in theory (proactive Plan Bs are strong in unknown metagames) and in practice (UW has bad results in 15 round tourneys, Jeskai has been sending a bunch of players to T8/T16). Jeskai is even better with GDS experiencing a downturn.
The issue with Jeskai is that I don't have Tarns, they scald my wallet. Until I get them I'd have to run Delta, is Jeskai still worth it?
I dont think Field of Ruin (new ghost quarter variant) will be enough to keep Eldrazi Tron / Valakut in check, but it does show us that wizards is willing to print new land-destroying lands which is great news for modern.
We may see something closer to wasteland's power level in the not too distant future
I will surely be testing the new Field of Ruin out in my UW control list. It seems like a good land hate. If only it was 1 mana and the battlefield could be coming tapped for you and untapped for the opponent or something like this.
I can only think this as a try to put cards in Modern pool through Standard. Their mind was set on Modern in this one. Let's hope for an even better land, for a better counterspell, and Modern could be a 9/10 format.
I disagree, it's too slow for modern imo they printed this for the lands that are getting flipped into. Every deck in standard can run it and I'm sure they know that people need ways to interact with those powerful lands.
So opinions on 'Field of Ruin'?
Too expensive to activate or worth it was grabbing a replacement land?
Feel like it needed to be 1 and tap to be modern good. But worth investigating.
The lands enter untapped, so you can use it to filter mana. However entering untapped means your opponent didn't lose any tempo.
I believe they are just testing the boundaries for Cantrips and LD with Opt and Field of Ruin. If those cards see little to no play or don't have a high impact on modern, then they may look at stronger options like preordain or a beefed up version of Ghost Quarter. I appreciate their will to print better answers for modern's problems though, even if they only take small steps.
This exactly.
They have to test the waters with printing effects like these or else they could end up completely busted. Even though they have a play design team that doesn't mean they will catch every mistake. It's much easier to print something like this and if it doesn't prove good enough for modern they can come out with a slightly upgraded version later on down the road.
While this land is debate-able, Opt is certainly going to see a fair to high amount of play just based on the currently available cantrip suite in modern.
I do hope they are taking similar risks with new counterspells.
So opinions on 'Field of Ruin'?
Too expensive to activate or worth it was grabbing a replacement land?
Feel like it needed to be 1 and tap to be modern good. But worth investigating.
The lands enter untapped, so you can use it to filter mana. However entering untapped means your opponent didn't lose any tempo.
I actually look forward to trying this out over ghost quarter in Jeskai control/midrange. It's true that the opponent doesn't lose tempo. But as the user, it's almost a 1-for-1 that's only slightly in the opponent's favor rather than the huge tempo loss you suffer from using ghost quarter. In theory at least, this seems better than GQ in slower midrange/control decks.
The faster decks (like humans knightfall that I've been playing recently) should still favor ghost quarter over this because an aggressive game plan backed up by GQ maximizes mana efficiency and card velocity.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Well, I am watching Caleb Sherer playing Storm atm, and he is saying "Opt is an automatic 4 off in the deck 100%. I am going to try 3-4 Sleight, 4 Opt, 3-4 Serum and take it from there".
I was certain it's not that good in the deck, but who am I to doubt Caleb?
I find that pretty insane he is rating it higher than Serum and Sleight. Being instant isn't particularly relevant in storm, so comparing Sleight to Opt at sorcery speed will easily reveal that Sleight is superior. Serum is still the best thing you can be doing turn 1.
I agree that Opt is a 4 of, but not until you've already maxed out on the other 2.
Storm isn't too hard to hate out IMO. People will start running more Eidolons (both red and white) as well as more graveyard hate if the deck ever begins to take up too many meta slots. Add to this the fact that spot removal is already good against them - I don't think storm can ever completely take over modern to the point where bans are needed.
Storm may not even become the best turbo Xerox style deck once Opt becomes legal. There could be something else lurking in the shadows that is ready to abuse 12+ decent cantrips and requires fewer pieces to assemble (let's face it, storm still requires a lot of different cards to execute the kill).
So, I just wish the deck will be safe. IMO, it is safe, because it's an interactable deck that I love having in the format. But, judging from Caleb, the deck will be in a dangerous position.
Grixis Shadow is a rough matchup. Despite the general hate on the forum for the deck it does a good job at policing this and other combos. Burn can be tough too, whether or not we have Opt. I think storm will be tier 1 for a while but I can't see Opt being the card to put it over the top. Plus, Opt will end up also going in a lot of those shadow lists, not to mention my continuing hope for new delver variants (particularly two colors, UW or UB).
(let's face it, storm still requires a lot of different cards to execute the kill).
. Don't want to pick any single arguments from your post but in this chase I must say that the storm pretty much needs maybe a random non land card, Baral and Gifts to execute a kill.
(let's face it, storm still requires a lot of different cards to execute the kill).
. Don't want to pick any single arguments from your post but in this chase I must say that the storm pretty much needs maybe a random non land card, Baral and Gifts to execute a kill.
well the "random nonland" would usually have to be either a +2 ritual or a copy of past in flames, so that does leave some stuff out but yes its a 3 card combo with lots of redundancy in two of the three parts.
(let's face it, storm still requires a lot of different cards to execute the kill).
. Don't want to pick any single arguments from your post but in this chase I must say that the storm pretty much needs maybe a random non land card, Baral and Gifts to execute a kill.
I mean it still has to eventually cast a bunch of different cards (multiple rituals, gifts, past in flames, grapeshot) during the combo turn.
Compare this to something like Splinter Twin where you are only casting two different cards and then winning.
This matters most for deck building because you have very few flex slots left afterwards.
That's the thing I seem to disagree with a lot of people on. Deck space itself is a resource. And storm may be a combo deck that only needs to hit5-6 mana and cast Gifts with a reduced in play to win, but so much deck space has to be dedicated to making this happen that it stops you from doing many other things. So, the deck has expended almost all of the deck space resource just on trying to win and is left without enough of that resource to run a bunch of disruption and stuff.
That's the thing I seem to disagree with a lot of people on. Deck space itself is a resource. And storm may be a combo deck that only needs to hit5-6 mana and cast Gifts with a reduced in play to win, but so much deck space has to be dedicated to making this happen that it stops you from doing many other things. So, the deck has expended almost all of the deck space resource just on trying to win and is left without enough of that resource to run a bunch of disruption and stuff.
Eh. They'll probably just an Gifts Ungiven at some point.
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(let's face it, storm still requires a lot of different cards to execute the kill).
. Don't want to pick any single arguments from your post but in this chase I must say that the storm pretty much needs maybe a random non land card, Baral and Gifts to execute a kill.
I mean it still has to eventually cast a bunch of different cards (multiple rituals, gifts, past in flames, grapeshot) during the combo turn.
Compare this to something like Splinter Twin where you are only casting two different cards and then winning.
This matters most for deck building because you have very few flex slots left afterwards.
Yes, I know this was your point Splinter Twin had the main plan of tempo kill your opponent (by scaring them with your threat of combo to not to play anything big on their turn). But it is also a fact that on storm's combo turn outside of their library they actually just cast a single spell to win which is Gifts. It creates a big illusion like there is something opponent can do or choose during that very turn.
But of course storm can't win in any other way than Grapeshotting or via Goblins (of course they can Blood Moon and attack with Electromancer but that is like playing Chalice on one vs infect and kill them with Blinkmoth Nexus :D). I think we might eventually see Gifts Ungiven getting banned when high level pro players start to pick up storm. It is not alone that the mechanic is stupidly broken but also that it seems Wizards is disliking the whole archtype.
(let's face it, storm still requires a lot of different cards to execute the kill).
. Don't want to pick any single arguments from your post but in this chase I must say that the storm pretty much needs maybe a random non land card, Baral and Gifts to execute a kill.
I mean it still has to eventually cast a bunch of different cards (multiple rituals, gifts, past in flames, grapeshot) during the combo turn.
Compare this to something like Splinter Twin where you are only casting two different cards and then winning.
This matters most for deck building because you have very few flex slots left afterwards.
Yes, I know this was your point Splinter Twin had the main plan of tempo kill your opponent (by scaring them with your threat of combo to not to play anything big on their turn). But it is also a fact that on storm's combo turn outside of their library they actually just cast a single spell to win which is Gifts. It creates a big illusion like there is something opponent can do or choose during that very turn.
But of course storm can't win in any other way than Grapeshotting or via Goblins (of course they can Blood Moon and attack with Electromancer but that is like playing Chalice on one vs infect and kill them with Blinkmoth Nexus :D). I think we might eventually see Gifts Ungiven getting banned when high level pro players start to pick up storm. It is not alone that the mechanic is stupidly broken but also that it seems Wizards is disliking the whole archtype.
It's more interactable this time around though. Without a 'Mancer or a Baral, it's so difficult to go off. And you can bolt/push/path this damn thing.
It is indeed but what if you don't play that kind of interaction? I guess forcing to play something that hard is what got Twin banned in the first place
(let's face it, storm still requires a lot of different cards to execute the kill).
. Don't want to pick any single arguments from your post but in this chase I must say that the storm pretty much needs maybe a random non land card, Baral and Gifts to execute a kill.
I mean it still has to eventually cast a bunch of different cards (multiple rituals, gifts, past in flames, grapeshot) during the combo turn.
Compare this to something like Splinter Twin where you are only casting two different cards and then winning.
This matters most for deck building because you have very few flex slots left afterwards.
Yes, I know this was your point Splinter Twin had the main plan of tempo kill your opponent (by scaring them with your threat of combo to not to play anything big on their turn). But it is also a fact that on storm's combo turn outside of their library they actually just cast a single spell to win which is Gifts. It creates a big illusion like there is something opponent can do or choose during that very turn.
But of course storm can't win in any other way than Grapeshotting or via Goblins (of course they can Blood Moon and attack with Electromancer but that is like playing Chalice on one vs infect and kill them with Blinkmoth Nexus :D). I think we might eventually see Gifts Ungiven getting banned when high level pro players start to pick up storm. It is not alone that the mechanic is stupidly broken but also that it seems Wizards is disliking the whole archtype.
It's more interactable this time around though. Without a 'Mancer or a Baral, it's so difficult to go off. And you can bolt/push/path this damn thing.
and you couldn't bolt path or push their creature with the other deck? why does storm get the pass? it can win on turn 3 on top of this..
Storm isn't too hard to hate out IMO. People will start running more Eidolons (both red and white) as well as more graveyard hate if the deck ever begins to take up too many meta slots. Add to this the fact that spot removal is already good against them - I don't think storm can ever completely take over modern to the point where bans are needed.
Storm may not even become the best turbo Xerox style deck once Opt becomes legal. There could be something else lurking in the shadows that is ready to abuse 12+ decent cantrips and requires fewer pieces to assemble (let's face it, storm still requires a lot of different cards to execute the kill).
storm isnt to hard to hate out? than why is it one of the best decks in the format regardless of shadow and uw/x decks being prevalent, burn being prevalent, and graveyard hate being prevalent.
the same could be said about titanshift and etron. look what happens when we dont have adequate hate for them, and they have a high power level? they hold top tier status.
Storm isn't too hard to hate out IMO. People will start running more Eidolons (both red and white) as well as more graveyard hate if the deck ever begins to take up too many meta slots. Add to this the fact that spot removal is already good against them - I don't think storm can ever completely take over modern to the point where bans are needed.
Storm may not even become the best turbo Xerox style deck once Opt becomes legal. There could be something else lurking in the shadows that is ready to abuse 12+ decent cantrips and requires fewer pieces to assemble (let's face it, storm still requires a lot of different cards to execute the kill).
storm isnt to hard to hate out? than why is it one of the best decks in the format regardless of shadow and uw/x decks being prevalent, burn being prevalent, and graveyard hate being prevalent.
the same could be said about titanshift and etron. look what happens when we dont have adequate hate for them, and they have a high power level? they hold top tier status.
People are rebalancing their hate toward artifacts and away from the graveyard atm. It will start to shift back towards the gy soon as Affinity declines and storm/dredge ascend.
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Storm has won what, two SCG events? It is vulnerable to creature removal, graveyard hate, and the old disruption + clock combo from either goyf, delver or shadow. It isn't oppressive in the format. There is a place for combo to exist in a format as diverse as modern. And I understand that someone is upset that their favorite combo was banned while this one exists, but that's not my fault, or gkourou's fault, or anyone else's on the forum. IN FACT* I would argue that if you believe that other combo was banned unjustly that your goal should be to argue against other such bannings instead of saying "if I can't have my combo, nobody can."
Combo has a place in this format. There isn't a reason to ban combo into oblivion simply for existing. Plus, what do you ban from it? Gifts? Fringe decks get caught in the crossfire, which should be minimized at all costs. Rituals? That hurts the All-In Red decks (but to be transparent, I may be a bit biased in there -- Blood Moon is my favorite card...). The Storm payloads could conceivably be banned if we're looking to obliterate the deck, not nerf it. Baral or Electromancer? It nerfs the deck, but they'll still find a way.
There will always be top decks in any format. Banning a top tier deck only makes another deck take its place, or a few begin to rise rather than just one. Storm has never gotten a pass. In fact, it's probably been effect by more bans than any other deck in the format. Gifts Storm should be allowed to exist in Modern. As we've learned from Standard, always banning the top dog is detrimental to a format.
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and yet its TOP tier. ive seen other unfair decks hit alot harder than storm has been. again, why does it get a pass?
and now we have opt incoming.
Storm got nerfed multiple times. Stop ignoring that. It did not get any free pass. It's heavily nerfed, and it's fine as it is. If anything, you should be happy as a control player, because you can fight Storm off just fine.
Even me, that I currently go by UW Control, and Storm is an awful matchup, don't complain about it, since it isn't an uninteractable Ascension deck.
Again, I am showing the cards that got banned, directly because of Storm, or the cards that indirectly nerfed it.
Modern Banlist:
{..}
Gitaxian Probe
Ponder
Preordain
Rite Of Flame
Seething Song
{..}
im not the one ignoring that its one of the best decks in the format regardless of nerfs. and the fact that its much like an old deck that got banned for requiring "interaction or lose".
why didnt grapeshot get banned in the first place? instead of all those cards? wizards surely went through alot of trouble keeping it around. which is more than I can say for "you know what .dec"
and yet its TOP tier. ive seen other unfair decks hit alot harder than storm has been. again, why does it get a pass?
and now we have opt incoming.
We might as well complain about Affinity and the Artifact lands being banned. Or Green Sun's Zenith and Elves winning every once and then. This logic has no end, because it has no good premise to it's conclusion.
Re: Storm and the reason why they did not ban Grapeshot:
Sam Stoddart: Eggs was a deck that, if it had stayed at that power level, would've been a fine thing to have in the format. It was much less adorable as a deck that was strong enough to win Pro Tours, especially considering the amount of time it added to tournament rounds.
Going by that logic, Storm is a fine deck to have, because it does not win THAT much.
You should not ban decks out of oblivion just because your biased opinion comes in. People want to be playing with uninteractable linear combo decks, and you should let them do exactly that.
As long as the combo does not kill consistently turn 3 and it isn't totally uninteractable. Storm does not win consistently pre-turn 4, and it's not that uninteractable as it once was Ascension. Also, it does not even win that much.
There is literally no reason to nerf Storm at the moment.
Storm is totally fine and it will probably be fine, unless Opt pushes the deck too much and convince people buy it on MODO, because of the extremely low price of it.
if it doesn't even win that much than why is it top tier?
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-Modern-
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The issue with Jeskai is that I don't have Tarns, they scald my wallet. Until I get them I'd have to run Delta, is Jeskai still worth it?
UWR Control
BR Hollow One
We may see something closer to wasteland's power level in the not too distant future
I disagree, it's too slow for modern imo they printed this for the lands that are getting flipped into. Every deck in standard can run it and I'm sure they know that people need ways to interact with those powerful lands.
The lands enter untapped, so you can use it to filter mana. However entering untapped means your opponent didn't lose any tempo.
This exactly.
They have to test the waters with printing effects like these or else they could end up completely busted. Even though they have a play design team that doesn't mean they will catch every mistake. It's much easier to print something like this and if it doesn't prove good enough for modern they can come out with a slightly upgraded version later on down the road.
While this land is debate-able, Opt is certainly going to see a fair to high amount of play just based on the currently available cantrip suite in modern.
I do hope they are taking similar risks with new counterspells.
I actually look forward to trying this out over ghost quarter in Jeskai control/midrange. It's true that the opponent doesn't lose tempo. But as the user, it's almost a 1-for-1 that's only slightly in the opponent's favor rather than the huge tempo loss you suffer from using ghost quarter. In theory at least, this seems better than GQ in slower midrange/control decks.
The faster decks (like humans knightfall that I've been playing recently) should still favor ghost quarter over this because an aggressive game plan backed up by GQ maximizes mana efficiency and card velocity.
I find that pretty insane he is rating it higher than Serum and Sleight. Being instant isn't particularly relevant in storm, so comparing Sleight to Opt at sorcery speed will easily reveal that Sleight is superior. Serum is still the best thing you can be doing turn 1.
I agree that Opt is a 4 of, but not until you've already maxed out on the other 2.
Storm may not even become the best turbo Xerox style deck once Opt becomes legal. There could be something else lurking in the shadows that is ready to abuse 12+ decent cantrips and requires fewer pieces to assemble (let's face it, storm still requires a lot of different cards to execute the kill).
Grixis Shadow is a rough matchup. Despite the general hate on the forum for the deck it does a good job at policing this and other combos. Burn can be tough too, whether or not we have Opt. I think storm will be tier 1 for a while but I can't see Opt being the card to put it over the top. Plus, Opt will end up also going in a lot of those shadow lists, not to mention my continuing hope for new delver variants (particularly two colors, UW or UB).
Modern
WUBRG
well the "random nonland" would usually have to be either a +2 ritual or a copy of past in flames, so that does leave some stuff out but yes its a 3 card combo with lots of redundancy in two of the three parts.
I mean it still has to eventually cast a bunch of different cards (multiple rituals, gifts, past in flames, grapeshot) during the combo turn.
Compare this to something like Splinter Twin where you are only casting two different cards and then winning.
This matters most for deck building because you have very few flex slots left afterwards.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
Eh. They'll probably just an Gifts Ungiven at some point.
Yes, I know this was your point Splinter Twin had the main plan of tempo kill your opponent (by scaring them with your threat of combo to not to play anything big on their turn). But it is also a fact that on storm's combo turn outside of their library they actually just cast a single spell to win which is Gifts. It creates a big illusion like there is something opponent can do or choose during that very turn.
But of course storm can't win in any other way than Grapeshotting or via Goblins (of course they can Blood Moon and attack with Electromancer but that is like playing Chalice on one vs infect and kill them with Blinkmoth Nexus :D). I think we might eventually see Gifts Ungiven getting banned when high level pro players start to pick up storm. It is not alone that the mechanic is stupidly broken but also that it seems Wizards is disliking the whole archtype.
Modern
WUBRG
It is indeed but what if you don't play that kind of interaction? I guess forcing to play something that hard is what got Twin banned in the first place
Modern
WUBRG
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the same could be said about titanshift and etron. look what happens when we dont have adequate hate for them, and they have a high power level? they hold top tier status.
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People are rebalancing their hate toward artifacts and away from the graveyard atm. It will start to shift back towards the gy soon as Affinity declines and storm/dredge ascend.
and yet its TOP tier. ive seen other unfair decks hit alot harder than storm has been. again, why does it get a pass?
and now we have opt incoming.
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There will always be top decks in any format. Banning a top tier deck only makes another deck take its place, or a few begin to rise rather than just one. Storm has never gotten a pass. In fact, it's probably been effect by more bans than any other deck in the format. Gifts Storm should be allowed to exist in Modern. As we've learned from Standard, always banning the top dog is detrimental to a format.
why didnt grapeshot get banned in the first place? instead of all those cards? wizards surely went through alot of trouble keeping it around. which is more than I can say for "you know what .dec"
If one isnt fine then the other isnt either.
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We might as well complain about Affinity and the Artifact lands being banned. Or Green Sun's Zenith and Elves winning every once and then. This logic has no end, because it has no good premise to it's conclusion.
decks playing:
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