I like how that with the return of "shakeup bans", the thread is right back to where it was with the old one. The only difference is that instead of saying the banned card, everyone just dances a merry circle around it. This might actually be worse.
I never put stock in the whole "skakeup ban" thing. If people actually believed that, it would be a "never touch this format ever again with a ten-foot pole" level offense.
Feels a little like watching Harry Potter "he who shall not be named". That said I totally think there will be a shake up ban. I foresee mox Opal at the least because...
1) pros tend to default to it as they did with other decks that saw bans
2) I really don't think they want lantern to be represented at all
3) it makes for some very none game 1s
4) I'm guessing they think there will be something in the new set that will really shake up modern
Land hate is generally seen as too weak...so yeah.
How so? Do the cards I listed not deal with Cavern? And for the UR versions, there is Stone Rain, Crumble to Dust and Fulminator Mage. Please explain how these cards are inadequate for dealing with Cavern of Souls.
If they did, much like we have hate that hits Affinity, why do you think people complain about big mana?
Because they don't play big mana and expect to be favored or at least even in every match. I think gkourou has done a good job of explaining the phenomenon.
And because certain people just like to complain.
Yes, I'm certain its not because land hate is less effective against a deck that tutor's lands in its sleep, compared to artifact hate.
EDIT: And both Forsythe and Maro have commented that there 100% was a tie between the Pro Tour and bans, and that without the pro tour, there would be less need/desire/whatever on Wizards part to ban cards in Modern. Call it timing, call it shake up, I dont care what you want to call it, there was a link.
So, First they used "shake-up-bans" to flush players into standard. Then they stopped the modern pro tour thinking that would lead to a slow death like legacy but that failed to flush more players back into standard. Now they are going back to the "shake-up-bans" so apparently it does flush out more players than having no pro tour.
I would rather have no pro tour than giving more control over to wizards. They are manipulating us, this is nothing but a way for them to use there power of the ban hammer to cause instability in modern.
Hilarious thing is pros still don't like modern and if you watch then play or watch their ban-mania videos (cough LSV) they still suck at it and have no idea what's good, bad or completely unplayable.
Fingers crossed some real grinders get there and demonstrate modern is a deep format that you can't just look at of 8 weeks a year.
I think we can definitively say that the presence of Modern PTs did change the timing of certain bannings and as such the return of Modern PTs can cause concern for that again.
Mostly, I'm happy to be able to watch more Modern tournaments.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
I like how that with the return of "shakeup bans", the thread is right back to where it was with the old one. The only difference is that instead of saying the banned card, everyone just dances a merry circle around it. This might actually be worse.
I never put stock in the whole "skakeup ban" thing. If people actually believed that, it would be a "never touch this format ever again with a ten-foot pole" level offense.
Forsythe literally said Pro Tours sped up changes to the banlist. He also wrote an entire article about this issue, half of which talked about why Modern was bad for the PT. What changed? Players should know.
Well I was going to stay away from this thread for a while but then I heard about us getting back a modern pro tour. I for one welcome the shakeup bans, to me banning are a integral part of modern and make the format more interesting. That being said some unbans would also be welcomed. Hopefully if they do the whole shake up ban thing they do it right
Most of us play modern because we don't want a rotating format. If I wanted to play in a rotating format it would be cheaper to play in standard. We don't need shakeup bans ...
Well I was going to stay away from this thread for a while but then I heard about us getting back a modern pro tour. I for one welcome the shakeup bans, to me banning are a integral part of modern and make the format more interesting. That being said some unbans would also be welcomed. Hopefully if they do the whole shake up ban thing they do it right
Well I was going to stay away from this thread for a while but then I heard about us getting back a modern pro tour. I for one welcome the shakeup bans, to me banning are a integral part of modern and make the format more interesting. That being said some unbans would also be welcomed. Hopefully if they do the whole shake up ban thing they do it right
You are in a minority. In fact, I've described that minority before as the hyper-vocal, hyper minority, which currently consists of about 3-5 users in this thread who just don't seem to like Modern. I don't know anyone in my own play circles who liked shakeup bans. In fact, people disliked shakeup bans so much that Wizards got rid of the Modern Pro Tour in 2016.
If Pro Tours are going to mean expedited bans, players should know that and be able to voice their opinion on it. I'm hoping for an explanation of this in the next week, although it blows my mind Wizards thought they could announce this without an explanation to begin with. It's a total 180 from a position they held just 15 months ago, one Forsythe dedicated an entire article to addressing. What changed, why did it change, and what does it mean going forward? These are reasonable questions that many players are wondering.
Those who are hoping for more bans, especially those that believe bans are a part of Modern, are a decided minority. It doesn't even make sense in a non-rotating format. Why on earth would one want regular bans to dethrone top decks in a non-rotating format?
Well I was going to stay away from this thread for a while but then I heard about us getting back a modern pro tour. I for one welcome the shakeup bans, to me banning are a integral part of modern and make the format more interesting. That being said some unbans would also be welcomed. Hopefully if they do the whole shake up ban thing they do it right
What do you play, that you want banned?
I'm not attached to any particular deck at the moment. Diversity isn't the be all end all to what makes a format good and enjoyable. Modern has for most of It's history been very diverse.
Well I was going to stay away from this thread for a while but then I heard about us getting back a modern pro tour. I for one welcome the shakeup bans, to me banning are a integral part of modern and make the format more interesting. That being said some unbans would also be welcomed. Hopefully if they do the whole shake up ban thing they do it right
You are in a minority. In fact, I've described that minority before as the hyper-vocal, hyper minority, which currently consists of about 3-5 users in this thread who just don't seem to like Modern. I don't know anyone in my own play circles who liked shakeup bans. In fact, people disliked shakeup bans so much that Wizards got rid of the Modern Pro Tour in 2016.
If Pro Tours are going to mean expedited bans, players should know that and be able to voice their opinion on it. I'm hoping for an explanation of this in the next week, although it blows my mind Wizards thought they could announce this without an explanation to begin with. It's a total 180 from a position they held just 15 months ago, one Forsythe dedicated an entire article to addressing. What changed, why did it change, and what does it mean going forward? These are reasonable questions that many players are wondering.
Those who are hoping for more bans, especially those that believe bans are a part of Modern, are a decided minority. It doesn't even make sense in a non-rotating format. Why on earth would one want regular bans to dethrone top decks in a non-rotating format?
You can keep calling us a vocal minority to write off our opinions.
I don't necessarily want bans to take out the top deck I want bans and unbans to make the format better and if shake up bans make the format better than so be it. I guess I'm just looking at the situation in a positive light.
I agree, it's been generally diverse, but I don't see what bans would improve anything.
The meta is a highly complex system you don't just remove pieces without far ranging impacts.
So if you are not attached to anything what do you think needs to go, and what do you get out of it?
I don't beleive modern is as good as It could be by a large margin. Do you want my selfish bans and unbans or my playerbase compromise bans and unbans?
Well I was going to stay away from this thread for a while but then I heard about us getting back a modern pro tour. I for one welcome the shakeup bans, to me banning are a integral part of modern and make the format more interesting. That being said some unbans would also be welcomed. Hopefully if they do the whole shake up ban thing they do it right
You are in a minority. In fact, I've described that minority before as the hyper-vocal, hyper minority, which currently consists of about 3-5 users in this thread who just don't seem to like Modern. I don't know anyone in my own play circles who liked shakeup bans. In fact, people disliked shakeup bans so much that Wizards got rid of the Modern Pro Tour in 2016.
If Pro Tours are going to mean expedited bans, players should know that and be able to voice their opinion on it. I'm hoping for an explanation of this in the next week, although it blows my mind Wizards thought they could announce this without an explanation to begin with. It's a total 180 from a position they held just 15 months ago, one Forsythe dedicated an entire article to addressing. What changed, why did it change, and what does it mean going forward? These are reasonable questions that many players are wondering.
Those who are hoping for more bans, especially those that believe bans are a part of Modern, are a decided minority. It doesn't even make sense in a non-rotating format. Why on earth would one want regular bans to dethrone top decks in a non-rotating format?
You can keep calling us a vocal minority to write off our opinions.
I don't necessarily want bans to take out the top deck I want bans and unbans to make the format better and if shake up bans make the format better than so be it. I guess I'm just looking at the situation in a positive light.
Shake up bans don't make the format better. Bans of problem cards make the format better.
I believe the majority of modern players would be excited or okay with some unbans and don't want any bans.
If Wizards had a shake up ban policy before every Pro Tour then many players would quit modern. What's the point in having a non rotating format where they rotate out cards with bans all the time? I got into modern when I joined the military because I don't want to invest a lot of money in a standard deck, deploy, and then come back and have my deck no longer be legal. The whole point in Modern(and Wizards made a lot of money off of this with the latest Modern Masters set), is you invest money in cards but then you can use those cards for the rest of your life. We all didn't buy modern cards just so that way Wizards could ban them for the sake of a "shake up."
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Tweets - Maro was asked - the reasons for removing the modern PT were sound and seem to have benefited the format what changed.
Response a good number of the audience really wanted it.
Tweet from AF I hear you loud and clear regards shake up banning in advance of modern PT no plans for that we plan to manage the format as we do now.
Later asked if the same applied to legacy and he said that he thought so but they had not had that specific conversation as of yet.
Heh both? Unlike Wizards I'm of the opinion more data gives better discussion.
My realistic banned list changes
Bans: none
Unbans: blood braid elf and stoneforge mystic
My selfish banned list changes
Bans: mox opal, eldrazi temple, simian spirit guide, the dredge mechanic except life from the loam
Unbans:blood braid elf, stoneforge mystic, green sun zenith, jace the mind sculptor,
Loam allows for (potentially) a Lands type deck, without being potentially busted like the rest of Dredge.
I see where you are coming from Zorakkiller, those are all bans targeting fast/big/cheating mana. Not a wrong position, just one that does not fit the current model of format management.
Tweets - Maro was asked - the reasons for removing the modern PT were sound and seem to have benefited the format what changed.
Response a good number of the audience really wanted it.
Tweet from AF I hear you loud and clear regards shake up banning in advance of modern PT no plans for that we plan to manage the format as we do now.
Later asked if the same applied to legacy and he said that he thought so but they had not had that specific conversation as of yet.
Yes!!!! *pumps fist* This is a perfect outcome: we get Modern at the highest level of play without dumb shake-up bans, total win-win for us.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Feels a little like watching Harry Potter "he who shall not be named". That said I totally think there will be a shake up ban. I foresee mox Opal at the least because...
1) pros tend to default to it as they did with other decks that saw bans
2) I really don't think they want lantern to be represented at all
3) it makes for some very none game 1s
4) I'm guessing they think there will be something in the new set that will really shake up modern
Yes, I'm certain its not because land hate is less effective against a deck that tutor's lands in its sleep, compared to artifact hate.
EDIT: And both Forsythe and Maro have commented that there 100% was a tie between the Pro Tour and bans, and that without the pro tour, there would be less need/desire/whatever on Wizards part to ban cards in Modern. Call it timing, call it shake up, I dont care what you want to call it, there was a link.
That is fact.
Spirits
I would rather have no pro tour than giving more control over to wizards. They are manipulating us, this is nothing but a way for them to use there power of the ban hammer to cause instability in modern.
PS: Modern was better with out the pro tour.
Which part?
Legacy - LED Dredge, ANT & WDnT
Mostly, I'm happy to be able to watch more Modern tournaments.
Forsythe literally said Pro Tours sped up changes to the banlist. He also wrote an entire article about this issue, half of which talked about why Modern was bad for the PT. What changed? Players should know.
What do you play, that you want banned?
Spirits
You are in a minority. In fact, I've described that minority before as the hyper-vocal, hyper minority, which currently consists of about 3-5 users in this thread who just don't seem to like Modern. I don't know anyone in my own play circles who liked shakeup bans. In fact, people disliked shakeup bans so much that Wizards got rid of the Modern Pro Tour in 2016.
If Pro Tours are going to mean expedited bans, players should know that and be able to voice their opinion on it. I'm hoping for an explanation of this in the next week, although it blows my mind Wizards thought they could announce this without an explanation to begin with. It's a total 180 from a position they held just 15 months ago, one Forsythe dedicated an entire article to addressing. What changed, why did it change, and what does it mean going forward? These are reasonable questions that many players are wondering.
Those who are hoping for more bans, especially those that believe bans are a part of Modern, are a decided minority. It doesn't even make sense in a non-rotating format. Why on earth would one want regular bans to dethrone top decks in a non-rotating format?
I'm not attached to any particular deck at the moment. Diversity isn't the be all end all to what makes a format good and enjoyable. Modern has for most of It's history been very diverse.
The meta is a highly complex system you don't just remove pieces without far ranging impacts.
So if you are not attached to anything what do you think needs to go, and what do you get out of it?
Spirits
You can keep calling us a vocal minority to write off our opinions.
I don't necessarily want bans to take out the top deck I want bans and unbans to make the format better and if shake up bans make the format better than so be it. I guess I'm just looking at the situation in a positive light.
I don't beleive modern is as good as It could be by a large margin. Do you want my selfish bans and unbans or my playerbase compromise bans and unbans?
Spirits
Shake up bans don't make the format better. Bans of problem cards make the format better.
I believe the majority of modern players would be excited or okay with some unbans and don't want any bans.
If Wizards had a shake up ban policy before every Pro Tour then many players would quit modern. What's the point in having a non rotating format where they rotate out cards with bans all the time? I got into modern when I joined the military because I don't want to invest a lot of money in a standard deck, deploy, and then come back and have my deck no longer be legal. The whole point in Modern(and Wizards made a lot of money off of this with the latest Modern Masters set), is you invest money in cards but then you can use those cards for the rest of your life. We all didn't buy modern cards just so that way Wizards could ban them for the sake of a "shake up."
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Response a good number of the audience really wanted it.
Tweet from AF I hear you loud and clear regards shake up banning in advance of modern PT no plans for that we plan to manage the format as we do now.
Later asked if the same applied to legacy and he said that he thought so but they had not had that specific conversation as of yet.
Legacy - LED Dredge, ANT & WDnT
My realistic banned list changes
Bans: none
Unbans: blood braid elf and stoneforge mystic
My selfish banned list changes
Bans: mox opal, eldrazi temple, simian spirit guide, the dredge mechanic except life from the loam
Unbans:blood braid elf, stoneforge mystic, green sun zenith, jace the mind sculptor,
Legacy - LED Dredge, ANT & WDnT
Life from the loan is a sweet card
I see where you are coming from Zorakkiller, those are all bans targeting fast/big/cheating mana. Not a wrong position, just one that does not fit the current model of format management.
I liked AF's tweet. Gives me hope.
Spirits
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
https://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/887862643645480960
This makes me feel much better about the situation. I'm still a little nervous to see how it plays out, but overall my fears are largely allayed.