I honestly feel like this would be the best way to upgrade Gaddock Teeg in a way that makes it good, but not overpowered:
Incredulous Law-Person1W
Creature - Rules Lawyer
Cards with converted mana cost 4 or greater can't be cast
Cards with x in their mana costs can't be cast
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Incredulous Law-Person unless you pay 1W God damn lawyers fees....
2/2
I think the tax you have to pay to keep it around balances it out a bit. Otherwise, I'd be fine with this card seeing play. I think it stops enough of the cards people seem to have issue with, while also being not extremely difficult to deal with. People can still save it from removal with cards like Restoration Angel (obviously flashed in via Aether Vial) or Blossoming Defense. As I am typing this I also realized it stops Shadow players from casting Angler and Tasigur
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Well obviously it's my opinion. Disagree to your heart's content. But your own opinion of "not bad" isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.
When things have devolved into arguments about arguing we're fairly off the rails, but why not.
To happily sound like an broken record, the hate exists, people on this thread just refuse to acknowledge it.
I explicitly pointed out the flaws in existing hate that's been mentioned which is, you know, acknowledging it. Just not as sufficiently playable in the same sense as Stony Silence, Shattering Spree, etc.
Everything else aside, the argument of blood moon only being playable in a few decks and being restrictive because of red is bull*****.
You really thrashed this one, but I pointed out there is one card that is currently sideboard-able. Hint: it's Blood Moon! And I pointed out this effect is only available in one color. Double hint: it is!
I honestly feel like this would be the best way to upgrade Gaddock Teeg in a way that makes it good, but not overpowered:
Incredulous Law-Person1W
Creature - Rules Lawyer
Cards with converted mana cost 4 or greater can't be cast
Cards with x in their mana costs can't be cast
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Incredulous Law-Person unless you pay 1W God damn lawyers fees....
2/2
I think the tax you have to pay to keep it around balances it out a bit. Otherwise, I'd be fine with this card seeing play. I think it stops enough of the cards people seem to have issue with, while also being not extremely difficult to deal with. People can still save it from removal with cards like Restoration Angel (obviously flashed in via Aether Vial) or Blossoming Defense. As I am typing this I also realized it stops Shadow players from casting Angler and Tasigur
I would lower the tax to just one colorless if I kept it around at all. The tax does seem like a fair way to do things. And that card is surprisingly versatile. It even stops Gifts and Past in flames from Storm as well as Cryptic Command from Control. Might be too strong for wizards to print.
@Darkest before dawn, I'm not sure you understand the concept of a strawman. You are now admonishing me for reading your post, and responding to points you made with counterpoints and reasoning of my own. That is how discussions work. If you are incapable of having that kind of point-counterpoint discussion without getting belligerent, demeaning, and patronizing, maybe a thread specifically for those kinds of discussions isn't for you.
I would lower the tax to just one colorless if I kept it around at all. The tax does seem like a fair way to do things. And that card is surprisingly versatile. It even stops Gifts and Past in flames from Storm as well as Cryptic Command from Control. Might be too strong for wizards to print.
I think the tax makes it fair. If you're going to shut off everyone from casting things that cost more than 3, you're going to need to pay more than just the mana to initially cast the creature. And I think having to essentially start from turn 1 again with concerns to the mana you have access to is a fair price (obviously this assumes you have lands to play on Turns 3 forward).
It also does turn off a lot of cards. There are a surprising number of cards that cost 4 mana outside of stuff in the big mana decks.
As for if it would be too powerful, as long as Wizards doesn't set up the format where the only removal is 4 mana, I think it would be fine. The tax you have to pay every turn would stop you from swarming out creatures too quickly (since the crature would turn off wrath effects). I think this could definitely see play.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I honestly feel like this would be the best way to upgrade Gaddock Teeg in a way that makes it good, but not overpowered:
Incredulous Law-Person1W
Creature - Rules Lawyer
Cards with converted mana cost 4 or greater can't be cast
Cards with x in their mana costs can't be cast
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Incredulous Law-Person unless you pay 1W God damn lawyers fees....
2/2
I think the tax you have to pay to keep it around balances it out a bit. Otherwise, I'd be fine with this card seeing play. I think it stops enough of the cards people seem to have issue with, while also being not extremely difficult to deal with. People can still save it from removal with cards like Restoration Angel (obviously flashed in via Aether Vial) or Blossoming Defense. As I am typing this I also realized it stops Shadow players from casting Angler and Tasigur
Very interesting idea. Love the name and flavor text. In my mind it teeters right on the edge of being too powerful; I have a feeling that the more the collective thinks about it the more it will seem a little too good.
@Darkest before dawn, I'm not sure you understand the concept of a strawman. You are now admonishing me for reading your post, and responding to points you made with counterpoints and reasoning of my own. That is how discussions work. If you are incapable of having that kind of point-counterpoint discussion without getting belligerent, demeaning, and patronizing, maybe a thread specifically for those kinds of discussions isn't for you.
You're far from the worst offender, but you are miscontruing me and then ranting about things I'm not saying. Nothing fruitful is going to come from arguing over that and it will only end up tedious for others to read (if it isn't already). I apologize that my sarcasm caused such a thesaurus-salad of consternating feelings.
You've convinced me that some kind of an upkeep is definitely a good thing to help balance the power level. And I agree that if it was printed it would see play. I'm just not sure it would see print. Maybe in the new only big block no sets structure, since they said they can jump to new worlds as one offs now and then, they could jump back to theros to check in on elspeth or something and give us this on an enchantment. That opens it up to a little more removal which helps balance the power level and seems like the plane where they are willing to try hatebear-ish cards the most.
You've convinced me that some kind of an upkeep is definitely a good thing to help balance the power level. And I agree that if it was printed it would see play. I'm just not sure it would see print. Maybe in the new only big block no sets structure, since they said they can jump to new worlds as one offs now and then, they could jump back to theros to check in on elspeth or something and give us this on an enchantment. That opens it up to a little more removal which helps balance the power level and seems like the plane where they are willing to try hatebear-ish cards the most.
At the end of the day, the thought experiment was to see that if instead of talking about wanting cards that destroy/cripple the mana base, we should instead be focusing on cards that deal with what people are trying to do with that mana.
Because at the end of the day I'd rather be shut out from casting a card, and having the option to cast it later if I deal with the hate card in play, than not be able to play anything because my mana base has been destroyed/crippled.
I play Lantern Control, and I used to play Dredge. I understand the feeling of devastating hate cards. But every time I played Lantern and had my opponent play a Stony Silence, or when I was on Dredge and my opponent had a RiP, I always had that, "I can beat this" feeling. This feeling was because of the simple fact that if I destroyed the hate card, I could still play the game. When your solution to dealing with mana decks is destroying their mana, they can't deal with that hate card and play the game. The hate card just hates them out of ever winning any game.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
regards tron, eldrazi and shift... why no wasteland?
it is true that modern has hosers for a lot of different strategies, but it seems that good land hate is lacking, but well, im not wizards, so maybe im wrong
i was thinking that green sun's zenith seems ok in modern, i mean, it power level seems fine. chord of calling and company are better cards in the current strategies, and i dont see these decks cutting cards for this, cause you cant dilute your deck with so many non creature spells, and zenith could open new decks, something like legacy maverick could be awesome
Is anyone else excited about the Ixalan spoilers? I loved Lorywn and Morningtide (and also Onslaught, Legions, Scourge and Odyssey sets too) for their Tribal matters theme. I'm looking forward to seeing more of it. Is there anything that stands out as Modern playable?
Going off what was spoilt during the rare sheet leak a few months back - I think Shaper's Sanctuary has potential. It lets you draw cards when your creature gets targeted, so your zoo deck for example doesn't run out of steam as quickly
Shaper's Sanctuary and the Sorcerer's Scope (the improved Pithing Needle) will see play in Modern.
regards tron, eldrazi and shift... why no wasteland?
it is true that modern has hosers for a lot of different strategies, but it seems that good land hate is lacking, but well, im not wizards, so maybe im wrong
i was thinking that green sun's zenith seems ok in modern, i mean, it power level seems fine. chord of calling and company are better cards in the current strategies, and i dont see these decks cutting cards for this, cause you cant dilute your deck with so many non creature spells, and zenith could open new decks, something like legacy maverick could be awesome
Wasteland is way too good for modern. Rishadan Port was banned in its own block. Faster decks, like Delver can wasteland the slower deck's land drops. In alot of decks, e.g. UW control, Titanshift etc, casting a wasteland is pretty much equivalent to casting a time walk.
(However, I do agree modern lacks sufficient land hate. I do not agree wasteland is the correct way to go).
The issue with Green Sun's Zenith is the card is the best thing to do on turn 1 and turn 5. You can cast Green Sun's Zenith on turn 1 to grab Dryad arbor. (Which is turn 1 mana dork) and turn 5 grab siege Rhino. Every single green deck would run 4 of this card. The card really hurts deck diversity.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Shaper's Sanctuary and the Sorcerer's Scope (the improved Pithing Needle) will see play in Modern.
Sanctuary maybe. I am not so sure about Scope. Costing 2 is a lot of mana for what it does.
What do you need to needle on turn one that can't be needled on turn two?
Edit: In Legacy, sure. In modern, where they just banned Probe? I'll take the info.
i know, but does really hurt diversity? i mean something like vizier company wont run zenith (or at least the playset), elves wont run the full 4, company and chord are just better on those shells
i agree that something like knightfall would play the card, but it isnt bad per se
I think green zenith like wild nacatl. In theory nacatl was hurting diversity, and well... we know how it was in reality
Let's try not to discuss custom cards in this thread. There are plenty of other places to discuss them, but State of the Meta is not one of them. -- CavalryWolfPack
This represents a change from the broad State of Modern parameters when we first envisioned the thread. It is also allowed under the current rules in the first post. Why change it? This topic frequently dovetails with banlist discusssion, design philosophy, and Modern issues, which is why we allowed it here in the first place.
My interpretation was "new cards" and "custom cards" are different things, but I can see it's use here. Carry on!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
Shaper's Sanctuary and the Sorcerer's Scope (the improved Pithing Needle) will see play in Modern.
Sanctuary maybe. I am not so sure about Scope. Costing 2 is a lot of mana for what it does.
What do you need to needle on turn one that can't be needled on turn two?
Edit: In Legacy, sure. In modern, where they just banned Probe? I'll take the info.
Anything you brought it in for when you don't want it ts/iok'd from your hand.
Shaper's Sanctuary and the Sorcerer's Scope (the improved Pithing Needle) will see play in Modern.
Sanctuary maybe. I am not so sure about Scope. Costing 2 is a lot of mana for what it does.
What do you need to needle on turn one that can't be needled on turn two?
Edit: In Legacy, sure. In modern, where they just banned Probe? I'll take the info.
Anything you brought it in for when you don't want it ts/iok'd from your hand.
He meant, that if you are bringing in Pithing Needle to deal with something, it is better to play it on turn 1, than play it on turn 2 since that gives your opponent a turn to use Inquisition or Thoughtseize to make you discard it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Shaper's Sanctuary and the Sorcerer's Scope (the improved Pithing Needle) will see play in Modern.
Sanctuary maybe. I am not so sure about Scope. Costing 2 is a lot of mana for what it does.
What do you need to needle on turn one that can't be needled on turn two?
Edit: In Legacy, sure. In modern, where they just banned Probe? I'll take the info.
Anything you brought it in for when you don't want it ts/iok'd from your hand.
Such as?
Lotv is probably a great example or anything you want to hit from lantern control because they to have discard t1 too.
Sanctuary maybe. I am not so sure about Scope. Costing 2 is a lot of mana for what it does.
What do you need to needle on turn one that can't be needled on turn two?
Edit: In Legacy, sure. In modern, where they just banned Probe? I'll take the info.
Anything you brought it in for when you don't want it ts/iok'd from your hand.
Such as?
Lotv is probably a great example or anything you want to hit from lantern control because they to have discard t1 too.
i know, but does really hurt diversity? i mean something like vizier company wont run zenith (or at least the playset), elves wont run the full 4, company and chord are just better on those shells
i agree that something like knightfall would play the card, but it isnt bad per se
I think green zenith like wild nacatl. In theory nacatl was hurting diversity, and well... we know how it was in reality
I would immediately and happily try 4 in elves over chord, it might not work out, but I would give it a shot. I would try some number along with a dryad arbor in Titanshift. Ramp on turn 1 and every subsequent turn it can either fetch a dryad arbor for ramp or a Sakura Tribe Elder. It makes using creature flex cards like Courser ofKruphix better. And eventually it plays a Titan to win the game. You can't just look at non tier 1 decks that can get a boost from it without being broken but also how tier 1 strategies could use it.
What do you need to needle on turn one that can't be needled on turn two?
Edit: In Legacy, sure. In modern, where they just banned Probe? I'll take the info.
Anything you brought it in for when you don't want it ts/iok'd from your hand.
Such as?
Lotv is probably a great example or anything you want to hit from lantern control because they to have discard t1 too.
Sounds like you'd be better off with a leyline.
You play leyline in any deck and just pray to have it out t0? What are you bring needles in for then?
of course, ill try zenith in every green deck too, but sinergy decks like elves seems to have better options than zenith. titanshift maybe could improve, but i dont know if the deck would be better with the card (i didnt tested it, im just theorycrafting)
of course, ill try zenith in every green deck too, but sinergy decks like elves seems to have better options than zenith. titanshift maybe could improve, but i dont know if the deck would be better with the card (i didnt tested it, im just theorycrafting)
Elves would absolutely love zenith. While a number of elves are interchangeable the deck really wants a heritage druid early. And if you already have heritage then you can get nettle sentinel if you are going to combo off or Elvish Visionary if you need value. If you already have everything you need then it becomes your win con.
of course, ill try zenith in every green deck too, but sinergy decks like elves seems to have better options than zenith. titanshift maybe could improve, but i dont know if the deck would be better with the card (i didnt tested it, im just theorycrafting)
Elves would be ecstatic if zenith was printed. You can fetch any combo piece (heritage druid, nettle sentinel) you want, as well as any finisher (Shaman of the Pack). Additionally, your finisher-and-combo-pieces is additionally a mana ramp card for 1 mana (see dryad arbor), and a toolbox of silver bullets (Reclamation Sage, Gaddock Teeg, etc.).
There is no green creature deck in existence that doesnt play Green Sun Zenith. Synergy decks only get better with a ramp-finisher-combo-toolbox-silver-bullet card.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UWUW ControlUW UGWSpiritsUGW GHardened ScalesG WGRUKiki PodWGRU [RIP]
Incredulous Law-Person 1W
Creature - Rules Lawyer
Cards with converted mana cost 4 or greater can't be cast
Cards with x in their mana costs can't be cast
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Incredulous Law-Person unless you pay 1W
God damn lawyers fees....
2/2
I think the tax you have to pay to keep it around balances it out a bit. Otherwise, I'd be fine with this card seeing play. I think it stops enough of the cards people seem to have issue with, while also being not extremely difficult to deal with. People can still save it from removal with cards like Restoration Angel (obviously flashed in via Aether Vial) or Blossoming Defense. As I am typing this I also realized it stops Shadow players from casting Angler and Tasigur
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
When things have devolved into arguments about arguing we're fairly off the rails, but why not.
I explicitly pointed out the flaws in existing hate that's been mentioned which is, you know, acknowledging it. Just not as sufficiently playable in the same sense as Stony Silence, Shattering Spree, etc.
You really thrashed this one, but I pointed out there is one card that is currently sideboard-able. Hint: it's Blood Moon! And I pointed out this effect is only available in one color. Double hint: it is!
I would lower the tax to just one colorless if I kept it around at all. The tax does seem like a fair way to do things. And that card is surprisingly versatile. It even stops Gifts and Past in flames from Storm as well as Cryptic Command from Control. Might be too strong for wizards to print.
@Darkest before dawn, I'm not sure you understand the concept of a strawman. You are now admonishing me for reading your post, and responding to points you made with counterpoints and reasoning of my own. That is how discussions work. If you are incapable of having that kind of point-counterpoint discussion without getting belligerent, demeaning, and patronizing, maybe a thread specifically for those kinds of discussions isn't for you.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
I think the tax makes it fair. If you're going to shut off everyone from casting things that cost more than 3, you're going to need to pay more than just the mana to initially cast the creature. And I think having to essentially start from turn 1 again with concerns to the mana you have access to is a fair price (obviously this assumes you have lands to play on Turns 3 forward).
It also does turn off a lot of cards. There are a surprising number of cards that cost 4 mana outside of stuff in the big mana decks.
As for if it would be too powerful, as long as Wizards doesn't set up the format where the only removal is 4 mana, I think it would be fine. The tax you have to pay every turn would stop you from swarming out creatures too quickly (since the crature would turn off wrath effects). I think this could definitely see play.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Very interesting idea. Love the name and flavor text. In my mind it teeters right on the edge of being too powerful; I have a feeling that the more the collective thinks about it the more it will seem a little too good.
You're far from the worst offender, but you are miscontruing me and then ranting about things I'm not saying. Nothing fruitful is going to come from arguing over that and it will only end up tedious for others to read (if it isn't already). I apologize that my sarcasm caused such a thesaurus-salad of consternating feelings.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
At the end of the day, the thought experiment was to see that if instead of talking about wanting cards that destroy/cripple the mana base, we should instead be focusing on cards that deal with what people are trying to do with that mana.
Because at the end of the day I'd rather be shut out from casting a card, and having the option to cast it later if I deal with the hate card in play, than not be able to play anything because my mana base has been destroyed/crippled.
I play Lantern Control, and I used to play Dredge. I understand the feeling of devastating hate cards. But every time I played Lantern and had my opponent play a Stony Silence, or when I was on Dredge and my opponent had a RiP, I always had that, "I can beat this" feeling. This feeling was because of the simple fact that if I destroyed the hate card, I could still play the game. When your solution to dealing with mana decks is destroying their mana, they can't deal with that hate card and play the game. The hate card just hates them out of ever winning any game.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
it is true that modern has hosers for a lot of different strategies, but it seems that good land hate is lacking, but well, im not wizards, so maybe im wrong
i was thinking that green sun's zenith seems ok in modern, i mean, it power level seems fine. chord of calling and company are better cards in the current strategies, and i dont see these decks cutting cards for this, cause you cant dilute your deck with so many non creature spells, and zenith could open new decks, something like legacy maverick could be awesome
Shaper's Sanctuary and the Sorcerer's Scope (the improved Pithing Needle) will see play in Modern.
Sanctuary maybe. I am not so sure about Scope. Costing 2 is a lot of mana for what it does.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Wasteland is way too good for modern. Rishadan Port was banned in its own block. Faster decks, like Delver can wasteland the slower deck's land drops. In alot of decks, e.g. UW control, Titanshift etc, casting a wasteland is pretty much equivalent to casting a time walk.
(However, I do agree modern lacks sufficient land hate. I do not agree wasteland is the correct way to go).
The issue with Green Sun's Zenith is the card is the best thing to do on turn 1 and turn 5. You can cast Green Sun's Zenith on turn 1 to grab Dryad arbor. (Which is turn 1 mana dork) and turn 5 grab siege Rhino. Every single green deck would run 4 of this card. The card really hurts deck diversity.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
What do you need to needle on turn one that can't be needled on turn two?
Edit: In Legacy, sure. In modern, where they just banned Probe? I'll take the info.
i agree that something like knightfall would play the card, but it isnt bad per se
I think green zenith like wild nacatl. In theory nacatl was hurting diversity, and well... we know how it was in reality
My interpretation was "new cards" and "custom cards" are different things, but I can see it's use here. Carry on!
Anything you brought it in for when you don't want it ts/iok'd from your hand.
Such as?
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Lotv is probably a great example or anything you want to hit from lantern control because they to have discard t1 too.
Sounds like you'd be better off with a leyline.
I would immediately and happily try 4 in elves over chord, it might not work out, but I would give it a shot. I would try some number along with a dryad arbor in Titanshift. Ramp on turn 1 and every subsequent turn it can either fetch a dryad arbor for ramp or a Sakura Tribe Elder. It makes using creature flex cards like Courser ofKruphix better. And eventually it plays a Titan to win the game. You can't just look at non tier 1 decks that can get a boost from it without being broken but also how tier 1 strategies could use it.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
You play leyline in any deck and just pray to have it out t0? What are you bring needles in for then?
Elves would absolutely love zenith. While a number of elves are interchangeable the deck really wants a heritage druid early. And if you already have heritage then you can get nettle sentinel if you are going to combo off or Elvish Visionary if you need value. If you already have everything you need then it becomes your win con.
Elves would be ecstatic if zenith was printed. You can fetch any combo piece (heritage druid, nettle sentinel) you want, as well as any finisher (Shaman of the Pack). Additionally, your finisher-and-combo-pieces is additionally a mana ramp card for 1 mana (see dryad arbor), and a toolbox of silver bullets (Reclamation Sage, Gaddock Teeg, etc.).
There is no green creature deck in existence that doesnt play Green Sun Zenith. Synergy decks only get better with a ramp-finisher-combo-toolbox-silver-bullet card.
UWUW ControlUW
UGWSpiritsUGW
GHardened ScalesG
WGRUKiki PodWGRU [RIP]