The term "lands matter" seems hilariously terrible to me. Isn't that essentially 99% of decks in the history of magic?
Regardless of if the decks are causing a problem now, it seems pretty clear that there is a lack of efficient answers for lands that will only become more obvious with time. I don't expect us to get anything through standard that helps this.
Curious what others feel the chances of unbans coming this time around are? Bbe and sfm being the obvious candidates for over a year at this point, I think the chances of them actually unbanning them are very slim.
Curious what others feel the chances of unbans coming this time around are? Bbe and sfm being the obvious candidates for over a year at this point, I think the chances of them actually unbanning them are very slim.
I have made my opinions known before, but I think there are at least 3-4 safe cards to unban, but I don't think anything will be done until the announcement immediately before the PT. Unless there is something egregious that needs to be banned (like Edlrazi was), I firmly believe "no changes" until January, at which point Wizards will toss us a bone with a Shake Up Unban right before the PT.
Bonus prediction: whatever is unbanned definitely won't break the format.
I'm curious for what people would suggest to the lands problem. A 2 mana colorless "destroy target land" as a sorcery would be a strictly better Sink Hole, while a 3 mana colorless "destroy target land" as a sorcery would likely be unplayable. 3 mana instant maybe? Would that be too strong (especially with Snapcaster)?
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Curious what others feel the chances of unbans coming this time around are? Bbe and sfm being the obvious candidates for over a year at this point, I think the chances of them actually unbanning them are very slim.
I have made my opinions known before, but I think there are at least 3-4 safe cards to unban, but I don't think anything will be done until the announcement immediately before the PT. Unless there is something egregious that needs to be banned (like Edlrazi was), I firmly believe "no changes" until January, at which point Wizards will toss us a bone with a Shake Up Unban right before the PT.
Bonus prediction: whatever is unbanned definitely won't break the format.
I was under the impression someone at WotC (Aaron Forcythe, I believe) sent out a tweet stating they wouldn't change how Modern was managed due to the PT. In other words, no shakeup bannings, and presumably no shakeup unbannings. That said, I would love to see something come off the banlist. Cfusion got it spot on -- they probably won't unban anything and if they do it won't break the format. Whether or not it has any real impact on the format is another story, but the many of us seem to agree that BBE and SFM can come off (although maybe not at the same time).
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I'm curious for what people would suggest to the lands problem. A 2 mana colorless "destroy target land" as a sorcery would be a strictly better Sink Hole, while a 3 mana colorless "destroy target land" as a sorcery would likely be unplayable. 3 mana instant maybe? Would that be too strong (especially with Snapcaster)?
First, I think you mean "generic" mana (like artifacts) and not colorless mana (like Warping Wail). Either way, it would just be another tool Eldrazi and Valakut can use to fight each other while still not being super effective against either. ETron can just power out threats anyway and Valakut decks can hold the lands in their hand (or tutor them out) when needed.
Second, I don't think Snapcaster Mage should ever be used as an excuse to purposely make a spell worse. A spell needs to stand on its own merits. Plus, spells making their way into Modern are doing so through Standard, so Snapcaster should never be a consideration in design. It has never in the past ever been a problem to cast something, snap, and cast something again. If the game has gone on long enough and you have the 5RRU needed to Stone Rain, Snap, Stone Rain, then you have earned the right to make that play.
I don't know what would be a good solution, other than some kind of T1 Blood Moon deck to keep them in check. But red has horrible tools for dealing with the format, RB and RW deal with board states, but lack any meaningful stack interaction or draw/filtering, GR has many better things it'd rather be doing, and UR is fairly terrible. The need for a third color in these kinds of decks makes Blood Moon hard to play, so they all fall back on expensive, ineffective, or tempo loss stuff like Ghost Quarter, Fulminator Mage, Molten Rain, Crumble to Dust, or Spreading Seas.
I'm curious for what people would suggest to the lands problem. A 2 mana colorless "destroy target land" as a sorcery would be a strictly better Sink Hole, while a 3 mana colorless "destroy target land" as a sorcery would likely be unplayable. 3 mana instant maybe? Would that be too strong (especially with Snapcaster)?
Again with Price of Progress talk? Guys, it's just too powerful in Modern. Players already shock themselves a lot throughout the game. Back to Basics could be a nice alternative to Blood Moon in Ux red-less Control/Aggro-Control, but it's probably too powerful - again.
Well, that's what he wanted: cards more powerful than already powerful cards. Instant speed colorless land removal? I don't see how Price of Progress is any more insane than that.
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WoTC, thank you for finally announcing the Modern format, an eternal format where everyone can participate.
Again with Price of Progress talk? Guys, it's just too powerful in Modern. Players already shock themselves a lot throughout the game. Back to Basics could be a nice alternative to Blood Moon in Ux red-less Control/Aggro-Control, but it's probably too powerful - again.
Well, that's what he wanted: cards more powerful than already powerful cards. Instant speed colorless land removal? I don't see how Price of Progress is any more insane than that.
I can see them printing a Price of Progress type card, only it dealing 1 damage per land as opposed to 2. Against the right decks it can still being 6+ damage to someone for 1R but not as early as turn 3.
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I think if the biggest point of contention right now is the semantics of archetype names, modern is probably in a pretty good spot.
Underrated comment and exactly how I feel about this.
I would say big mana is probably better described as the mana cost of the spells its casting (Average CMC of actual spells >5 etc). Scapeshift/TitanShift border on big mana to be, but they're still mostly combo, Eldrazi Trons primary threats/strength/existence comes from spells that cost 5 or more to cast and its best games are pumping those out early, so it's big mana, etc. Elves can't be big mana because it's pumping out CMC 1-3 (mostly 1 & 2) and its just a go-wide aggro deck that makes a lot of mana to go wide. Who really cares though? We should be trying to open the meta to new decks right now, not bickering over ones that already exist that aren't oppressive. The metagame is adapting well enough, we aren't in some type of DS/Tron/Shift Winter. There's some unbans that could help other archtypes, and new cards are getting printed all the time.
Again with Price of Progress talk? Guys, it's just too powerful in Modern. Players already shock themselves a lot throughout the game. Back to Basics could be a nice alternative to Blood Moon in Ux red-less Control/Aggro-Control, but it's probably too powerful - again.
Got to agree with this. Unless you're a burn player, you REALLY don't want Price of Progress in the format. Burn is already pretty punishing to any Fetch-Shock land base and this card speeds up its clock by at least a full turn. Price of Progress probably runs 3 color decks and Tron variants out of the format completely.
I'm curious for what people would suggest to the lands problem. A 2 mana colorless "destroy target land" as a sorcery would be a strictly better Sink Hole, while a 3 mana colorless "destroy target land" as a sorcery would likely be unplayable. 3 mana instant maybe? Would that be too strong (especially with Snapcaster)?
This talk of needing more land hate sounds just like the arguments for bans on decks that people just don't like. Hating out decks that ramp mana via lands would be terrible for the format. It would kill diversity and also risks powering dedicated land hate strategies into tier 1, and no one in their right mind wants that.
And it's worth repeating - land is the fundamental resource in the game that allows people to play Magic. WotC isn't stupid enough to introduce cards that are going to push people away from the game.
From the Ashes seems like it would be a great reprint for both standard and modern.
Enough decks play basics in standard where this should never mana screw anyone. And it would force modern players to run more basics, as well as keeping Tron/Valakut strategies in check.
I'm curious for what people would suggest to the lands problem. A 2 mana colorless "destroy target land" as a sorcery would be a strictly better Sink Hole, while a 3 mana colorless "destroy target land" as a sorcery would likely be unplayable. 3 mana instant maybe? Would that be too strong (especially with Snapcaster)?
I'm curious for what people would suggest to the lands problem. A 2 mana colorless "destroy target land" as a sorcery would be a strictly better Sink Hole, while a 3 mana colorless "destroy target land" as a sorcery would likely be unplayable. 3 mana instant maybe? Would that be too strong (especially with Snapcaster)?
This talk of needing more land hate sounds just like the arguments for bans on decks that people just don't like. Hating out decks that ramp mana via lands would be terrible for the format. It would kill diversity and also risks powering dedicated land hate strategies into tier 1, and no one in their right mind wants that.
And it's worth repeating - land is the fundamental resource in the game that allows people to play Magic. WotC isn't stupid enough to introduce cards that are going to push people away from the game.
No, hating out (IE: Using limited resources to improve one's odds against a deck) is exactly how the format SHOULD be able to respond to something. What 'hating out' allows for is NOT banning decks, but instead accounting for them in our sideboards.
Does Affinity cry about the nearly insurmountable wall of hate it can face?
Does Dredge cry about the nearly insurmountable wall of hate it can face?
No? Part of the game we say.
Land is a fundamental resource, true statement in 99.9% of decks out there. However non-basics, are not, and non-basics, are hardly ever central to Standard decks.
We need better hate for ETron/GxTron, because that is what is going to prevent any eventual ban on those cards, just like Affinity hasnt had a ban in forever, because if players want to, they can shut it down.
Those cards are examples of "battle cruiser Magic," which Wizards is fine with. My sweet Mythic beats yours. Last person to draw a Mythic wins!
I believe that TheCeaselessHunger is referring more to LAND HATE cards, prison cards, and countermagic that is too strong. These are types of cards that Wizards has deemed unlikeable, in contrast to sweet Mythics that win the game when you draw them (are super swingy).
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Those cards are examples of "battle cruiser Magic," which Wizards is fine with. My sweet Mythic beats yours. Last person to draw a Mythic wins!
I believe that TheCeaselessHunger is referring more to LAND HATE cards, prison cards, and countermagic that is too strong. These are types of cards that Wizards has deemed unlikeable, in contrast to sweet Mythics that win the game when you draw them (are super swingy).
I know, I just figured it was a jab at the fact that Wizards has a recent history of making terrible decisions in their production of new cards.
In the sense that they will not print a good land hate card (or good hate in general), I agree. In the sense that Wizards is smart enough to not ruin formats with their stupid decisions, I do not agree.
Well, that's your opinion cfusionpm. I don't happen to agree that the cards you listed are pushing people away from Modern. Empirical evidence in the form of event attendance and stream viewership suggests that you are wrong. Maybe you are complaining about Standard, but you didn't state that; if so, maybe there is another thread for that. I'm talking about Modern.
I'm hypothesizing that "answers" like Wasteland and From the Ashes would push people away from Modern. That's not a Modern format I'd be interested in playing. I'm glad WotC seems to agree.
lol, so you are essentially just saying you do not want your particular axis of attack to be something that is a hateable weakness.
I too, wish I could play my decks with no fear they be targeted by hate.
Pray that your deck doesnt become too successful due to some other pushed Standard card, because without control's in the formats pool (ie: Hate Cards) you get banned, instead of meta'ed.
This talk of needing more land hate sounds just like the arguments for bans on decks that people just don't like. Hating out decks that ramp mana via lands would be terrible for the format. It would kill diversity and also risks powering dedicated land hate strategies into tier 1, and no one in their right mind wants that.
And it's worth repeating - land is the fundamental resource in the game that allows people to play Magic. WotC isn't stupid enough to introduce cards that are going to push people away from the game.
No, hating out (IE: Using limited resources to improve one's odds against a deck) is exactly how the format SHOULD be able to respond to something. What 'hating out' allows for is NOT banning decks, but instead accounting for them in our sideboards.
Does Affinity cry about the nearly insurmountable wall of hate it can face?
Does Dredge cry about the nearly insurmountable wall of hate it can face?
No? Part of the game we say.
Land is a fundamental resource, true statement in 99.9% of decks out there. However non-basics, are not, and non-basics, are hardly ever central to Standard decks.
We need better hate for ETron/GxTron, because that is what is going to prevent any eventual ban on those cards, just like Affinity hasnt had a ban in forever, because if players want to, they can shut it down.
This.
Affinity will probably never receive a ban, despite being one of the most consistently powerful decks simply because there are effective answers to the deck if it eats a large metashare. EldraziTron's best answer is Ceremonious Rejection, but each card is often a back-breaking effect. There's such a slim window of opportunity to attack the deck and the 'hate' cards just slow the game down, playing into E-Tron's backup game. The only way to effectively fight the deck is to play Affinity and slip under them (hoping they don't Chalice you before you can dump your hand or land a payoff card).
EldraziTron is still good for the format if you ask me, but it could become a problem if we don't see enough ways to combat it when it becomes king of the mountain. Having viable answers to strategies is healthy for the metagame, because it keeps the metagame shifting.
lol, so you are essentially just saying you do not want your particular axis of attack to be something that is a hateable weakness.
I too, wish I could play my decks with no fear they be targeted by hate.
Pray that your deck doesnt become too successful due to some other pushed Standard card, because without control's in the formats pool (ie: Hate Cards) you get banned, instead of meta'ed.
Pretty much this. This is also why I'm pushing for unbans because I want to power up other archetypes so that we don't HAVE to lead down this road of banning the top dogs over and over. I'm sick of people getting their decks repeatedly banned and I would like people to get some fun things to play with.
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Regardless of if the decks are causing a problem now, it seems pretty clear that there is a lack of efficient answers for lands that will only become more obvious with time. I don't expect us to get anything through standard that helps this.
Curious what others feel the chances of unbans coming this time around are? Bbe and sfm being the obvious candidates for over a year at this point, I think the chances of them actually unbanning them are very slim.
I have made my opinions known before, but I think there are at least 3-4 safe cards to unban, but I don't think anything will be done until the announcement immediately before the PT. Unless there is something egregious that needs to be banned (like Edlrazi was), I firmly believe "no changes" until January, at which point Wizards will toss us a bone with a Shake Up Unban right before the PT.
Bonus prediction: whatever is unbanned definitely won't break the format.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
I was under the impression someone at WotC (Aaron Forcythe, I believe) sent out a tweet stating they wouldn't change how Modern was managed due to the PT. In other words, no shakeup bannings, and presumably no shakeup unbannings. That said, I would love to see something come off the banlist. Cfusion got it spot on -- they probably won't unban anything and if they do it won't break the format. Whether or not it has any real impact on the format is another story, but the many of us seem to agree that BBE and SFM can come off (although maybe not at the same time).
First, I think you mean "generic" mana (like artifacts) and not colorless mana (like Warping Wail). Either way, it would just be another tool Eldrazi and Valakut can use to fight each other while still not being super effective against either. ETron can just power out threats anyway and Valakut decks can hold the lands in their hand (or tutor them out) when needed.
Second, I don't think Snapcaster Mage should ever be used as an excuse to purposely make a spell worse. A spell needs to stand on its own merits. Plus, spells making their way into Modern are doing so through Standard, so Snapcaster should never be a consideration in design. It has never in the past ever been a problem to cast something, snap, and cast something again. If the game has gone on long enough and you have the 5RRU needed to Stone Rain, Snap, Stone Rain, then you have earned the right to make that play.
I don't know what would be a good solution, other than some kind of T1 Blood Moon deck to keep them in check. But red has horrible tools for dealing with the format, RB and RW deal with board states, but lack any meaningful stack interaction or draw/filtering, GR has many better things it'd rather be doing, and UR is fairly terrible. The need for a third color in these kinds of decks makes Blood Moon hard to play, so they all fall back on expensive, ineffective, or tempo loss stuff like Ghost Quarter, Fulminator Mage, Molten Rain, Crumble to Dust, or Spreading Seas.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Back to Basics reprint. Ruination wouldn't be bad either. They could get even more creative with cards like Raze or Price of Progress.
Well, that's what he wanted: cards more powerful than already powerful cards. Instant speed colorless land removal? I don't see how Price of Progress is any more insane than that.
I can see them printing a Price of Progress type card, only it dealing 1 damage per land as opposed to 2. Against the right decks it can still being 6+ damage to someone for 1R but not as early as turn 3.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Underrated comment and exactly how I feel about this.
I would say big mana is probably better described as the mana cost of the spells its casting (Average CMC of actual spells >5 etc). Scapeshift/TitanShift border on big mana to be, but they're still mostly combo, Eldrazi Trons primary threats/strength/existence comes from spells that cost 5 or more to cast and its best games are pumping those out early, so it's big mana, etc. Elves can't be big mana because it's pumping out CMC 1-3 (mostly 1 & 2) and its just a go-wide aggro deck that makes a lot of mana to go wide. Who really cares though? We should be trying to open the meta to new decks right now, not bickering over ones that already exist that aren't oppressive. The metagame is adapting well enough, we aren't in some type of DS/Tron/Shift Winter. There's some unbans that could help other archtypes, and new cards are getting printed all the time.
Got to agree with this. Unless you're a burn player, you REALLY don't want Price of Progress in the format. Burn is already pretty punishing to any Fetch-Shock land base and this card speeds up its clock by at least a full turn. Price of Progress probably runs 3 color decks and Tron variants out of the format completely.
Raze is essentially a red Ghost Quarter that can be countered, almost no reason to play that instead of GQ if it was in the format.
And it's worth repeating - land is the fundamental resource in the game that allows people to play Magic. WotC isn't stupid enough to introduce cards that are going to push people away from the game.
Enough decks play basics in standard where this should never mana screw anyone. And it would force modern players to run more basics, as well as keeping Tron/Valakut strategies in check.
Except, you know, they don't get to go search for a replacement land. So not really like Ghost Quarter.
My bad. Reading comprehension is a good thing.
No, hating out (IE: Using limited resources to improve one's odds against a deck) is exactly how the format SHOULD be able to respond to something. What 'hating out' allows for is NOT banning decks, but instead accounting for them in our sideboards.
Does Affinity cry about the nearly insurmountable wall of hate it can face?
Does Dredge cry about the nearly insurmountable wall of hate it can face?
No? Part of the game we say.
Land is a fundamental resource, true statement in 99.9% of decks out there. However non-basics, are not, and non-basics, are hardly ever central to Standard decks.
We need better hate for ETron/GxTron, because that is what is going to prevent any eventual ban on those cards, just like Affinity hasnt had a ban in forever, because if players want to, they can shut it down.
Spirits
Reality Smasher
Thought-Knot Seer
Drowner of Hope
Eldrazi Displacer
Prized Amalgam
Cathartic Reunion
Felidar Guardian
Emrakul, the Promised End
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Aetherworks Marvel
Fetchlands with fetchable duals after a tri-color block
Yes, I think they are stupid enough to introduce cards that push people away from the game.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I believe that TheCeaselessHunger is referring more to LAND HATE cards, prison cards, and countermagic that is too strong. These are types of cards that Wizards has deemed unlikeable, in contrast to sweet Mythics that win the game when you draw them (are super swingy).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I know, I just figured it was a jab at the fact that Wizards has a recent history of making terrible decisions in their production of new cards.
In the sense that they will not print a good land hate card (or good hate in general), I agree. In the sense that Wizards is smart enough to not ruin formats with their stupid decisions, I do not agree.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I'm hypothesizing that "answers" like Wasteland and From the Ashes would push people away from Modern. That's not a Modern format I'd be interested in playing. I'm glad WotC seems to agree.
I too, wish I could play my decks with no fear they be targeted by hate.
Pray that your deck doesnt become too successful due to some other pushed Standard card, because without control's in the formats pool (ie: Hate Cards) you get banned, instead of meta'ed.
Spirits
This.
Affinity will probably never receive a ban, despite being one of the most consistently powerful decks simply because there are effective answers to the deck if it eats a large metashare. EldraziTron's best answer is Ceremonious Rejection, but each card is often a back-breaking effect. There's such a slim window of opportunity to attack the deck and the 'hate' cards just slow the game down, playing into E-Tron's backup game. The only way to effectively fight the deck is to play Affinity and slip under them (hoping they don't Chalice you before you can dump your hand or land a payoff card).
EldraziTron is still good for the format if you ask me, but it could become a problem if we don't see enough ways to combat it when it becomes king of the mountain. Having viable answers to strategies is healthy for the metagame, because it keeps the metagame shifting.
Pretty much this. This is also why I'm pushing for unbans because I want to power up other archetypes so that we don't HAVE to lead down this road of banning the top dogs over and over. I'm sick of people getting their decks repeatedly banned and I would like people to get some fun things to play with.