I'm rocking Eldrazi Tron right now--doesn't mean because I want BBE to be unbanned I want to desperately Jund.
No one thinks modern sucks because they can't play BBE, I've not heard that in this thread, in the jund forums or on reddit, quit putting words in people's mouths as some claim you've actually heard or read.
What risk is BBE posing?! Oh no, she flipped a K-Command this time instead of the past two times where she flipped fatal push on an empty board or a thoughtseize in a hand full of lands! Seriously now, we're playing 1 mana 8/8s, turn 2 4/4 thoughtseizes, and playing Scapeshift on turn 4 or turn 5. BBE is laughably weak on a banned list.
No one's being picky, Modern is healthy, Jund is almost non-existent on both MTGO and in tournament results, and BBE isn't so powerful it would disturb or shake up the meta to the point where we would say, "why risk it in a healthy meta?" This is the perfect time, I seriously doubt BBE hurts any sort of meta.
It's absurd. It's as if the meta is nothing but small creature aggro and some Zoo deck is terrified to face more bolts because of a BBE unban; it sounds absurd and your argument is loose.
WotC doesn't have to wait 6 months for a re-ban if needed. They can take an emergency action out of cycle. They did this with Felidar Guardian - announced there were no bans on the shceduled announcement date, then banned it a short time later. They have options.
WotC doesn't have to wait 6 months for a re-ban if needed. They can take an emergency action out of cycle. They did this with Felidar Guardian - announced there were no bans on the shceduled announcement date, then banned it a short time later. They have options.
I think I can fairly say I would rather have 3 months of an oppressive format (since they're doing Ban updates every release now aren't they?) than have Wizards emergency ban a card in Modern. I feel the consumer confidence from the emergency ban would do more damage to the player base than having to play through a few months of an oppressive format.
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I don't know if I'd do an emergency ban unless we have another Eldrazi Winter, but they could easily re-ban BBE if in some fantasy scenario Jund topped every tournament with 6 of the 8 copies in multiple tournaments, while Tron players screamed in horror, or Scapeshift players tore their Valakut lands in anger, or as Grixis players look in disgust that they had to spend 5 mana to cast Snapcaster into K-Command---all while the format falls into utter chaos as a 3/2 hasty for 4 mana ravages the format.
WOTC unbanned Troll, they gave it a fair shot; we even laughed and called it a joke when it happened--they printed Amalgam, Neonate, and Reunion a few months later, and they banned it. They gave it a chance, now we all know.
I'd rather know if BBE and SFM are too powerful or not, if it is, arguments are laid down to rest, afterall, no one will be clamoring for a Troll unban anytime soon.
I am not vehemently opposed to any of the main unbans being discussed. I do think it is a bit silly to look at a healthy diverse meta and say "hey everything's been going great being left alone to self-regulate, so let's mess with it!" My fear is that any unban would simply reduce the diversity of fair decks to "either play BBE Jund or do something crazier." And we do have a number of fair deck options in the format with Death Shadow Jund (no delve creatures remember), Abzan midrange, UW Control, and hatebears, plus lower tier options like Jund midrange and Jeskai control. I don't think it is possible for every guild/shard color combo to be equally viable at the same time, and hence I constantly ask why people seem to think certain ones are entitled to exist as tier 1 options at any given point. I double down when the same midrange or fair deck proponents call for bans on any deck that would be a bad matchup, as if that deck not only has a right to exist competitively but also without any bad deck matchups.
I would argue that because we have a healthy and diverse meta, it is the best time to unban cards. It's in this type of metagame where you want to experiment with unbanning cards. Does it break the metagame? Whoops. Ban it again and the metagame should return to the state it was at before. Doesn't break the metagame? Cool. Modern now has a new tool to work with and maybe a few new decks spring up.
That's how I see it anyway
GGT unban and re-ban was a good six months of misery. I don't know if I want to suffer through BBE Jund while WOTC decides whether it needs to be re-banned. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
This line of thinking though never allows for another unban and that just seems wrong.
Formats shouldn't be addressed by something "seeming" wrong. There are literally dozens of viable decks. You can go to MtgGoldfish, MtgTop8, any site that compiles data and see results on everything from Grixis Shadow to RG Ponza seeing success. The only people that benefit from an unban of BBE are people who, for some reason, think modern sucks unless they get to play BBE. I don't think its worth the risk to satisfy a very small number of people, especially when I see zero upside. And that zero is a result of diminishing marginal returns. There are thirty viable decks in modern. If you don't like any of them, pick a format with the deck you do want to play, then. At some point people are just being picky, which goes back to the "junders wanna jund, but it isn't junding unless its tier 1."
I play tons of decks and that isn't the point. Why have cards banned that don't need to be. I just don't agree with that point of view at all.
I have a question for everyone on here. An please bare with me on this. What if Modern had no banned list at all what would be the type of decks being played? Would there truly be such an oppressive deck as to take over the entire field? Or would there be such a variance of decks that modern could police it self with no banned cards in the format?
I ask these questions because 1. I have been out of the tournament scene for a few years serving in the military. 2. It seems to me most people on here either want card a,b,c or nothing. Some people even state the meta is extremely healthy in its own way right now and could use some unbans or nothing happen at all on the 28th. Which is perfectly fine either way to me. My favorite deck type has not been valid for some time now like back in 2001-2002 time frame. I like Wildfire builds or even the old Ehernaggedon decks and Joklhaups decks of old.
So I am wondering what truly would be the best and most valid way to enhance modern to make it more viable to players new and old?
I am not vehemently opposed to any of the main unbans being discussed. I do think it is a bit silly to look at a healthy diverse meta and say "hey everything's been going great being left alone to self-regulate, so let's mess with it!" My fear is that any unban would simply reduce the diversity of fair decks to "either play BBE Jund or do something crazier." And we do have a number of fair deck options in the format with Death Shadow Jund (no delve creatures remember), Abzan midrange, UW Control, and hatebears, plus lower tier options like Jund midrange and Jeskai control. I don't think it is possible for every guild/shard color combo to be equally viable at the same time, and hence I constantly ask why people seem to think certain ones are entitled to exist as tier 1 options at any given point. I double down when the same midrange or fair deck proponents call for bans on any deck that would be a bad matchup, as if that deck not only has a right to exist competitively but also without any bad deck matchups.
I would argue that because we have a healthy and diverse meta, it is the best time to unban cards. It's in this type of metagame where you want to experiment with unbanning cards. Does it break the metagame? Whoops. Ban it again and the metagame should return to the state it was at before. Doesn't break the metagame? Cool. Modern now has a new tool to work with and maybe a few new decks spring up.
That's how I see it anyway
GGT unban and re-ban was a good six months of misery. I don't know if I want to suffer through BBE Jund while WOTC decides whether it needs to be re-banned. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
This line of thinking though never allows for another unban and that just seems wrong.
Formats shouldn't be addressed by something "seeming" wrong. There are literally dozens of viable decks. You can go to MtgGoldfish, MtgTop8, any site that compiles data and see results on everything from Grixis Shadow to RG Ponza seeing success. The only people that benefit from an unban of BBE are people who, for some reason, think modern sucks unless they get to play BBE. I don't think its worth the risk to satisfy a very small number of people, especially when I see zero upside. And that zero is a result of diminishing marginal returns. There are thirty viable decks in modern. If you don't like any of them, pick a format with the deck you do want to play, then. At some point people are just being picky, which goes back to the "junders wanna jund, but it isn't junding unless its tier 1."
....what? Not a single jund player is making the argument you claim they're making. I would be 100% fine with BBE coming off, and I can tell you right now there is a 0% chance I would ever play it.
The majority of us agree that the meta has dozens of viable decks with different strategies to play from. If a card can come off the banned list without hurting the meta, then that benefits everyone: people who would play it, people who wouldn't, and wizards themselves considering they stated one of their goals is to maintain as small a banned list as possible.
One good thing from the BBE ban was that Jund decks deversified the 4 drop slot. Bringing it back would offset that good development.
I wouldn't mind playing it again but I wouldn't waste a thought on Kalitas, Olivia or Huntmaster if that card was around, at least as far as the md is concerned.
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Oh no, it'll stop diversifying a 2 of in most jund decks? It's 4 drops is diversified because none them are great, just needed.
No one's diversifying goyfs or Bob's, or other major creatures in most decks.
Junds diversification comes from its removals of choice and the numbers, along with its sideboard. You have to look at jund less as a 60 card deck and more like a 75, much more so than just about any deck in the format.
Keeping bbe banned because a 2 of in one deck will be less diverse is asanine, the deck is bad now and needs a boost. If bbe still makes the deck bad, that's that and there's nothing more that should be done with jund except hope it gets good again from new sets. It also means one less deck on the banned list and proving it wasn't a threat to the formats health.
You're a frustrating poster, you want more things banned and less things unbanned, all of your opinions set the format back, in my opinion
We have a format were tier 1 decks are using a mox and a sol land and Most people would agree that modern is handling those cards well, but yet people are still worried about midrangy creatures that would go in decks that aren't exactly great right now
We have a format were tier 1 decks are using a mox and a sol land and Most people would agree that modern is handling those cards well, but yet people are still worried about midrangy creatures that would go in decks that aren't exactly great right now
and bbe most broken interaction would be into LoTV or ancestral? It's laughable honestly. Tell me the last time that RuG was a deck outside of scapeshift.
Oh no, it'll stop diversifying a 2 of in most jund decks? It's 4 drops is diversified because none them are great, just needed.
No one's diversifying goyfs or Bob's, or other major creatures in most decks.
Junds diversification comes from its removals of choice and the numbers, along with its sideboard. You have to look at jund less as a 60 card deck and more like a 75, much more so than just about any deck in the format.
Keeping bbe banned because a 2 of in one deck will be less diverse is asanine, the deck is bad now and needs a boost. If bbe still makes the deck bad, that's that and there's nothing more that should be done with jund except hope it gets good again from new sets. It also means one less deck on the banned list and proving it wasn't a threat to the formats health.
You're a frustrating poster, you want more things banned and less things unbanned, all of your opinions set the format back, in my opinion
People really are kind. I'm single-handedly holding back Modern? Do I do emergency bans too? I'm trying really hard not use slander in my comments here but expecting the same courtesy seems like a fool's errand.
I've playing Jund for years now (before bbe was banned) and I honestly don't see how you don't jam 4 BBE in every list. Find me someone who thinks otherwise and I'll show you a bold-faced liar.
Funny thing is I wasn't even against the unban as such. I just wanted to point out some potential side effects of such a move but here I am holding the format back and throwing spokes into the wheel of progress...
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Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
We have a format were tier 1 decks are using a mox and a sol land and Most people would agree that modern is handling those cards well, but yet people are still worried about midrangy creatures that would go in decks that aren't exactly great right now
Players are terrible at analyzing cards. Simply put.
For the record, I thought that Sword of the Meek would enable a Tier 2 strategy and that Ancestral Vision would be played in a Tier 1 strategy. Look how wrong I was, despite me thinking that I am pretty good at analyzing how strong a card would be.
The point is, that everyone's been wrong before. The thing about cards like Bloodbraid Elf, Stoneforge Mystic, Preordain, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor, newer WotC employees like Paul Cheon and Michael Majors could test how they would do in the current meta, then present their findings that the cards are fine (or not obviously). I just hope there is some analyzing. Players here know me as a Combo player. Why would I want non-Combo cards unbanned in Modern? Because they don't need to be banned by power level or the turn 4 rule. The only reason basically is just like cfusionpm said, "they are too wrapped up in their stubbornness and pride." Hopefully they get over that. I've been wrong hundreds of thousands of times and will continue to do so. Wizards is not infallible in this - I think it's been brought to the forefront in the recent Standard debacles.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
People really are kind. I'm single-handedly holding back Modern? Do I do emergency bans too? I'm trying really hard not use slander in my comments here but expecting the same courtesy seems like a fool's errand.
I've playing Jund for years now (before bbe was banned) and I honestly don't see how you don't jam 4 BBE in every list. Find me someone who thinks otherwise and I'll show you a bold-faced liar.
Funny thing is I wasn't even against the unban as such. I just wanted to point out some potential side effects of such a move but here I am holding the format back and throwing spokes into the wheel of progress...
Although I understand why you read it the way you did (he was a bit unclear), I think he was meaning the [ideas you espouse] set format back. I think the salient point here is that a goal of modern is the keep the shortest banlist possible, and keeping the 4-drop slot in Jund diverse hardly should trump the stated goals of the format. It is an extremely weak argument and I also understand the derision it was met with - it is not a relevant consideration (to most people, and afaik, wotc).
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
BBE is a hasty body with a card draw and free mana at 4 CMC.
While by itself it doesn't make a deck over-powered, as a card it is. Unban it and every non-combo deck in its color will jam it in. All other cascade spells are either over-cost or do not much of nothing by themselves. That's why they're not magical automatic CA, why they're not being played. BBE is better-than-CA (you cast the card for free), with a body, with haste. It's 7 mana worth of stuff for 4. The 3/2 haste is not irrelevant.
BBE unban is not meta warping, but the card would get played a ton just because it oozes power. That's what keeps it on the ban list: it would be a mindless inclusion. Nobody would play it because their deck needs a 3/2 haste for 4. They'd play it because they get to play a card for free *and* get in for 3. (Or block and trade or chump or threaten an extra 3 every turn, whatever.)
I think you took my comment too literal, you're not holding the format back, it's the group mass that wants more bans and few to little no unbans that hurt the format.
It's also hard not to feel their may be intentions or biases when you, a jund player, demand for Tron land and Temple bans when there's absolutely no evidence of warping or oppression.
I've been playing Jund for years, too, I've spent thousands of dollars on the archetype between buying the core pieces, every single popular sideboard piece you can think of, and even foiling out the deck---but I've never demanded for a Tron ban (as salty as the deck made me). I did point my finger at Temple, but I also said nothing should still be banned until proven, and I still feel that way.
I'm not convinced BBE would be a 4 of, I think it would be a 3 of, but 4 is definitely not unrealistic.
GBx is a good stuff deck, but I think the format's finally reached a point where a good-stuff deck is no longer enough.
BBE is a hasty body with a card draw and free mana at 4 CMC.
While by itself it doesn't make a deck over-powered, as a card it is. Unban it and every non-combo deck in its color will jam it in. All other cascade spells are either over-cost or do not much of nothing by themselves. That's why they're not magical automatic CA, why they're not being played. BBE is better-than-CA (you cast the card for free), with a body, with haste. It's 7 mana worth of stuff for 4. The 3/2 haste is not irrelevant.
BBE unban is not meta warping, but the card would get played a ton just because it oozes power. That's what keeps it on the ban list: it would be a mindless inclusion. Nobody would play it because their deck needs a 3/2 haste for 4. They'd play it because they get to play a card for free *and* get in for 3. (Or block and trade or chump or threaten an extra 3 every turn, whatever.)
Uhhh, what decks would play it, Jund and a non-existent Temur archetype? Zoo decks that barely exist? Sounds like BBE would would give dead or bad archetypes a kick in the ass.
You're also ignoring when that 4 mana does absolutely nothing except put out a 3/2 hasty body.
I'm fortunate enough to have a wide range of options when it comes to Modern. Aggro, mid-range, combo and control. I was hit with as many bans/unbans as the next guy.
There is a fine line between wanting a shorter ban list (which is good) and calling for an unban of artifact lands for example. If I seem overly conservative it's because I'm trying to be realistic about a given card's chances of reentering the format. Pierrebai's thoughts on bbe are something I can get behind and it is the real reason I think it's unban is unrealistic.
You could of course say that bbe isn't that much more powerful than what e-tron is doing but that opens up a whole new can of worms.
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Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
I would not be surprised if bbe gets unbanned, the reasons for its initial banning were shaky to begin with and it doesn't slot into any tier 1 or even tier 2 deck. but I firmly believe sfm has a grave in modern. But maybe that's just me trying to not get my hopes up again.
BBE is a hasty body with a card draw and free mana at 4 CMC.
While by itself it doesn't make a deck over-powered, as a card it is. Unban it and every non-combo deck in its color will jam it in. All other cascade spells are either over-cost or do not much of nothing by themselves. That's why they're not magical automatic CA, why they're not being played. BBE is better-than-CA (you cast the card for free), with a body, with haste. It's 7 mana worth of stuff for 4. The 3/2 haste is not irrelevant.
BBE unban is not meta warping, but the card would get played a ton just because it oozes power. That's what keeps it on the ban list: it would be a mindless inclusion. Nobody would play it because their deck needs a 3/2 haste for 4. They'd play it because they get to play a card for free *and* get in for 3. (Or block and trade or chump or threaten an extra 3 every turn, whatever.)
It wouldn't be a mindless inclusion. Modern has become significantly more powerful since bbe got banned. Ask yourself this what does a 3/2 match up well with in current modern. As we have already discusses on this forum not to long ago, most decks in modern are cheating on mana in some way. I disagree that bbe gets you seven mana worth of stuff for 4 because a 3/2 haste for 4 mana is overcosted for competitive play
As fine as I am with BBE being unbanned, a few things said in this thread are off. Someone said 'that needs a shot in the arm' about Jund and other comments to that effect have been made. Jund doesn't need or deserve a shot in the arm. Just because it isn't good right now doesn't mean it needs to be better or deserves to be better. One deck "needing" to be better is a garbage argument for unbanning a card. The card isn't strong enough to be on the ban list and doesn't do enough to break current decks within the meta. So it's worth trying it out. But Jund being tier 3 right now doesn't mean something needs to be unbanned to bring it back.
As fine as I am with BBE being unbanned, a few things said in this thread are off. Someone said 'that needs a shot in the arm' about Jund and other comments to that effect have been made. Jund doesn't need or deserve a shot in the arm. Just because it isn't good right now doesn't mean it needs to be better or deserves to be better. One deck "needing" to be better is a garbage argument for unbanning a card. The card isn't strong enough to be on the ban list and doesn't do enough to break current decks within the meta. So it's worth trying it out. But Jund being tier 3 right now doesn't mean something needs to be unbanned to bring it back.
I think the argument is more along the lines of "Jund isn't tier 1, allowing a window of opportunity to unban BBE." WotC has never unbanned a card that slots directly into a Tier 1 deck. As long as Jund was Tier 1, BBE was not coming off, regardless of any discussions around if it should have been on the ban list in the first place.
Right, the (valid) logic is the inverse of how spike4972 is interpreting. Jund's tier 2-3 status doesn't mean the card should be unbanned so that it can go in the deck, instead it simply means that the issue forcing BBE to the banlist (i.e: a dominant tier 1 Jund) is no longer present.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
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I agree with you guys. I'm just pointing out that some people are talking as if Jund has some mystical right to be tier one and that BBE should be unbanned because of it.
Specifically spsiegels comment on the last page that 'the deck is bad now and needs a boost'. I found that to be a garbage argument for unbanning the card. I agree that Jund not being tier 1 means it is safer to try the unban. But the 'needs a boost' part is what bothered me. There is no reason for the deck to need a boost. The meta shifted and now it's not as good as it once was. It happens all the time. Look at Abzan CoCo or Merfolk or all sorts of other decks that have fluctuated over time from being top tier when the Metagame is weak to them to tier three when it isn't. I remember fairly recently Merfolk being in the tier 1 category here and now it's down in developing competitive. But no deck dropping from tier 1 to tier 3 means a card needs to be unbanned or they deserve a boost. That's not how it works
The argument is that the card never should have been banned, but couldn't see an unban due to slotting directly into a tier 1 deck. That issue and argument is no longer valid
Jund deserves no entitlement to be top tier
But if this isn't the right time for it's unban then its obvious everyone should never expect bbe or sfm for years to come
I'm rocking Eldrazi Tron right now--doesn't mean because I want BBE to be unbanned I want to desperately Jund.
No one thinks modern sucks because they can't play BBE, I've not heard that in this thread, in the jund forums or on reddit, quit putting words in people's mouths as some claim you've actually heard or read.
What risk is BBE posing?! Oh no, she flipped a K-Command this time instead of the past two times where she flipped fatal push on an empty board or a thoughtseize in a hand full of lands! Seriously now, we're playing 1 mana 8/8s, turn 2 4/4 thoughtseizes, and playing Scapeshift on turn 4 or turn 5. BBE is laughably weak on a banned list.
No one's being picky, Modern is healthy, Jund is almost non-existent on both MTGO and in tournament results, and BBE isn't so powerful it would disturb or shake up the meta to the point where we would say, "why risk it in a healthy meta?" This is the perfect time, I seriously doubt BBE hurts any sort of meta.
It's absurd. It's as if the meta is nothing but small creature aggro and some Zoo deck is terrified to face more bolts because of a BBE unban; it sounds absurd and your argument is loose.
I think I can fairly say I would rather have 3 months of an oppressive format (since they're doing Ban updates every release now aren't they?) than have Wizards emergency ban a card in Modern. I feel the consumer confidence from the emergency ban would do more damage to the player base than having to play through a few months of an oppressive format.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
WOTC unbanned Troll, they gave it a fair shot; we even laughed and called it a joke when it happened--they printed Amalgam, Neonate, and Reunion a few months later, and they banned it. They gave it a chance, now we all know.
I'd rather know if BBE and SFM are too powerful or not, if it is, arguments are laid down to rest, afterall, no one will be clamoring for a Troll unban anytime soon.
I play tons of decks and that isn't the point. Why have cards banned that don't need to be. I just don't agree with that point of view at all.
I ask these questions because 1. I have been out of the tournament scene for a few years serving in the military. 2. It seems to me most people on here either want card a,b,c or nothing. Some people even state the meta is extremely healthy in its own way right now and could use some unbans or nothing happen at all on the 28th. Which is perfectly fine either way to me. My favorite deck type has not been valid for some time now like back in 2001-2002 time frame. I like Wildfire builds or even the old Ehernaggedon decks and Joklhaups decks of old.
So I am wondering what truly would be the best and most valid way to enhance modern to make it more viable to players new and old?
....what? Not a single jund player is making the argument you claim they're making. I would be 100% fine with BBE coming off, and I can tell you right now there is a 0% chance I would ever play it.
The majority of us agree that the meta has dozens of viable decks with different strategies to play from. If a card can come off the banned list without hurting the meta, then that benefits everyone: people who would play it, people who wouldn't, and wizards themselves considering they stated one of their goals is to maintain as small a banned list as possible.
Affinity
Death & Taxes
Mardu Nahiri
Forcing people to merge with twitch is stupid
I wouldn't mind playing it again but I wouldn't waste a thought on Kalitas, Olivia or Huntmaster if that card was around, at least as far as the md is concerned.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
No one's diversifying goyfs or Bob's, or other major creatures in most decks.
Junds diversification comes from its removals of choice and the numbers, along with its sideboard. You have to look at jund less as a 60 card deck and more like a 75, much more so than just about any deck in the format.
Keeping bbe banned because a 2 of in one deck will be less diverse is asanine, the deck is bad now and needs a boost. If bbe still makes the deck bad, that's that and there's nothing more that should be done with jund except hope it gets good again from new sets. It also means one less deck on the banned list and proving it wasn't a threat to the formats health.
You're a frustrating poster, you want more things banned and less things unbanned, all of your opinions set the format back, in my opinion
and bbe most broken interaction would be into LoTV or ancestral? It's laughable honestly. Tell me the last time that RuG was a deck outside of scapeshift.
People really are kind. I'm single-handedly holding back Modern? Do I do emergency bans too? I'm trying really hard not use slander in my comments here but expecting the same courtesy seems like a fool's errand.
I've playing Jund for years now (before bbe was banned) and I honestly don't see how you don't jam 4 BBE in every list. Find me someone who thinks otherwise and I'll show you a bold-faced liar.
Funny thing is I wasn't even against the unban as such. I just wanted to point out some potential side effects of such a move but here I am holding the format back and throwing spokes into the wheel of progress...
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Players are terrible at analyzing cards. Simply put.
For the record, I thought that Sword of the Meek would enable a Tier 2 strategy and that Ancestral Vision would be played in a Tier 1 strategy. Look how wrong I was, despite me thinking that I am pretty good at analyzing how strong a card would be.
The point is, that everyone's been wrong before. The thing about cards like Bloodbraid Elf, Stoneforge Mystic, Preordain, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor, newer WotC employees like Paul Cheon and Michael Majors could test how they would do in the current meta, then present their findings that the cards are fine (or not obviously). I just hope there is some analyzing. Players here know me as a Combo player. Why would I want non-Combo cards unbanned in Modern? Because they don't need to be banned by power level or the turn 4 rule. The only reason basically is just like cfusionpm said, "they are too wrapped up in their stubbornness and pride." Hopefully they get over that. I've been wrong hundreds of thousands of times and will continue to do so. Wizards is not infallible in this - I think it's been brought to the forefront in the recent Standard debacles.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
While by itself it doesn't make a deck over-powered, as a card it is. Unban it and every non-combo deck in its color will jam it in. All other cascade spells are either over-cost or do not much of nothing by themselves. That's why they're not magical automatic CA, why they're not being played. BBE is better-than-CA (you cast the card for free), with a body, with haste. It's 7 mana worth of stuff for 4. The 3/2 haste is not irrelevant.
BBE unban is not meta warping, but the card would get played a ton just because it oozes power. That's what keeps it on the ban list: it would be a mindless inclusion. Nobody would play it because their deck needs a 3/2 haste for 4. They'd play it because they get to play a card for free *and* get in for 3. (Or block and trade or chump or threaten an extra 3 every turn, whatever.)
It's also hard not to feel their may be intentions or biases when you, a jund player, demand for Tron land and Temple bans when there's absolutely no evidence of warping or oppression.
I've been playing Jund for years, too, I've spent thousands of dollars on the archetype between buying the core pieces, every single popular sideboard piece you can think of, and even foiling out the deck---but I've never demanded for a Tron ban (as salty as the deck made me). I did point my finger at Temple, but I also said nothing should still be banned until proven, and I still feel that way.
I'm not convinced BBE would be a 4 of, I think it would be a 3 of, but 4 is definitely not unrealistic.
GBx is a good stuff deck, but I think the format's finally reached a point where a good-stuff deck is no longer enough.
Uhhh, what decks would play it, Jund and a non-existent Temur archetype? Zoo decks that barely exist? Sounds like BBE would would give dead or bad archetypes a kick in the ass.
You're also ignoring when that 4 mana does absolutely nothing except put out a 3/2 hasty body.
There is a fine line between wanting a shorter ban list (which is good) and calling for an unban of artifact lands for example. If I seem overly conservative it's because I'm trying to be realistic about a given card's chances of reentering the format. Pierrebai's thoughts on bbe are something I can get behind and it is the real reason I think it's unban is unrealistic.
You could of course say that bbe isn't that much more powerful than what e-tron is doing but that opens up a whole new can of worms.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
It wouldn't be a mindless inclusion. Modern has become significantly more powerful since bbe got banned. Ask yourself this what does a 3/2 match up well with in current modern. As we have already discusses on this forum not to long ago, most decks in modern are cheating on mana in some way. I disagree that bbe gets you seven mana worth of stuff for 4 because a 3/2 haste for 4 mana is overcosted for competitive play
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
I think the argument is more along the lines of "Jund isn't tier 1, allowing a window of opportunity to unban BBE." WotC has never unbanned a card that slots directly into a Tier 1 deck. As long as Jund was Tier 1, BBE was not coming off, regardless of any discussions around if it should have been on the ban list in the first place.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Specifically spsiegels comment on the last page that 'the deck is bad now and needs a boost'. I found that to be a garbage argument for unbanning the card. I agree that Jund not being tier 1 means it is safer to try the unban. But the 'needs a boost' part is what bothered me. There is no reason for the deck to need a boost. The meta shifted and now it's not as good as it once was. It happens all the time. Look at Abzan CoCo or Merfolk or all sorts of other decks that have fluctuated over time from being top tier when the Metagame is weak to them to tier three when it isn't. I remember fairly recently Merfolk being in the tier 1 category here and now it's down in developing competitive. But no deck dropping from tier 1 to tier 3 means a card needs to be unbanned or they deserve a boost. That's not how it works
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
The argument is that the card never should have been banned, but couldn't see an unban due to slotting directly into a tier 1 deck. That issue and argument is no longer valid
Jund deserves no entitlement to be top tier
But if this isn't the right time for it's unban then its obvious everyone should never expect bbe or sfm for years to come