I'm not mud-slinging, it's the lack of actual data or proof that's bothering me.
Claiming everyone has an agenda doesn't make any of your arguments any better.
Nothing is oppressive, and that's what I'm sticking to
Moderns steered clear of awful decks like Eldrazi Winter, Dredge and Amulet Bloom for half a year now, I'm incredibly happy, modern is regulating itself. Jund shadow dominated and forced the meta to adapt, turning into Grixis Death Shadow in order to combat a format that chose to interact heavily.
I'm not mud-slinging, it's the lack of actual data or proof that's bothering me.
Claiming everyone has an agenda doesn't make any of your arguments any better.
Nothing is oppressive, and that's what I'm sticking to
Moderns steered clear of awful decks like Eldrazi Winter, Dredge and Amulet Bloom for half a year now, I'm incredibly happy, modern is regulating itself. Jund shadow dominated and forced the meta to adapt, turning into Grixis Death Shadow in order to combat a format that chose to interact heavily.
See everyone is dug into there
Mindsets and won't be convinced. So I'm just gonna say what I want to in regards to modern. To put it how you told me, No one cares if your happy because modern is "regulating itself"
My bad, I looked up the history, you didn't complain about aggro,
you just want combo and big mana out of the format so you can play your favorite decks with fewer weaknesses
You specifically listed Dredge and UR Storm a lot in your complaints, and wrote you're tired of flavor of the month decks and haven't played or enjoyed much modern since Eldrazi Winter.
As much as I hate big mana decks, midrange needs it's checks and balances, too.
Going by your history, you really just want fair decks in modern, and want combo and big mana pushed out so that you can enjoy "quality matches".
People can look on page 1 and page 2 of your history, in case it seems like I'm cherrypicking your words.
Sounds like modern really isn't for you if you dislike all these busted things being done.
Not sure what the unban euphoria is about; even if they unbanned both Stoneforge and BBE right now those decks would still fold to the ET deck big time. If you think that's not warping enough of an effect on ETs part then more power to you I guess.
I'm well aware of the current meta shares. My views and opinions are based purely on the fact that Eldrazi Temple is a fundamentally unbalanced card in this field that homogenized midrange decks almost like no card before it (DS decks come off more as tempo decks to me). It would take something like DRS to unseat E-Tron and that's not even remotely possible or healthy.
To make myself clear: ET is the only problem card in E-Tron. I'm almost certain the deck could work without it and be good enough without kicking all the other midrange decks into tier 4 territory.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
I don't want them out of the format, the have their role but having them be so prominent makes the format worse to me and I know I'm not alone. It also depends what big mana and combo decks we are talking about. Im not against all broken things, hell I wouldn't even consider the delve creatures broken. Let me ask this, Would legacy be as praised if a deck like cloudpost was tier 1? This is does not imply that modern should be legacy lite. There are also other ways to check midrange other than big mana.I just want to improve the average game of modern because it's always overshadowed by deck diversity
@Drekavac- so what you are saying is that thought-knot seer and reality smasher are solid enough and disruptive enough for the format without a land that adds 2 mana to cast them above the curve? I think you are quite right that they are, so I agree on ET being the card in question. the 4/4 exiles your best answer to their strategy on turn 2 and answering their best threat costs you an extra card. Also, this deck makes use of chalice which stops most of the opposition it faces. I think these powerhouses could be fine slotting in the curve, or at least cost a nonland card to ramp into them. And it might be that there isnt an uptick in this deck to dangerous levels but its still being watched. There is only one unban that ends the perceived threat of eldrazi dominance, honestly
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
I just want to improve the average game of modern because it's always overshadowed by deck diversity
The thing is that healthy gameplay is a much more subjective topic to evaluate than deck diversity. Different players want different things out of the format, we shouldn't come and say fair > unfair, interactive > solitaire, etc. but a lot of posters here say or imply that regardless. That's their opinion and it's fine as long as they don't try to impose it to others, yet alone belittle them for thinking otherwise. This is also why "you come off as entitled" is thrown around so much in this thread, some just want to change (un)ban stuff without considering the format's metagame, rules and guidelines.
Another interesting topic is the archetype balance vs deck diversity, that we discussed a couple months ago. IMO, both are important for format health and luckily Wizards cares about both, so that's nice. However, true archetype balance is probably not achievable, no matter how you slice the pie (some posters here would argue that aggro will always dominate or that ramp and combo shouldn't be as prevalent as migdrange). At the end of the day, deck diversity is easier to measure and change. I think the real goal is to give players as many options as possible, while ensuring the metagame isn't grossly unbalanced (like a deck being too good or certain archetypes struggling as a whole).
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Modern:WU WU Control | WBG Abzan Company Frontier:UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
There is no dominant deck in Modern right now. None! The meta is perfectly balanced with a half dozen decks being somewhere between 5-7% of the meta and another 12 decks being between 2-4% of the meta. That leaves something like 25% of the meta for rogue decks. You could not get a better meta for a format if you intentionally designed it that way. We should all remember this moment for all history. I don't think any format has ever had so many viable decks all at once. Ever!
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WoTC, thank you for finally announcing the Modern format, an eternal format where everyone can participate.
To make myself clear: ET is the only problem card in E-Tron. I'm almost certain the deck could work without it and be good enough without kicking all the other midrange decks into tier 4 territory.
Because honestly, I feel that if you ban Temple, then Eldrazi Tron just becomes a worse Tron deck then your standard R/G or B/G Tron list.
Yes I get that games where your opponent has a 2 Temple into Thought-Knot Seer opener are unfair and feel ridiculously overpowered. But so would a game against Dredge where they turn one Dredge Stinkweed Imp off of Insolent Neonate and hit a Narcomoeba and any number of Prized Amalgam.
The problem with Eldrazi Temple is it should have been Legendary in my opinion. I have no problem with the card existing, and doing what it does. Where the problem exists is when you can have multiples in play and have a curve such as turn 2 TKS and turn 3 Reality Smasher. If you play the second temple and you had to sacrifice the first one, sure you could still do that turn 2 TKS play, but then you couldn't follow it up with a Smasher. Or if you wanted to land the turn 3 Smasher, you'd need to play something other that TKS on turn 2.
I'd be perfectly fine with them making a functional reprint of Temple, with the only difference being that it is Legendary, and then them banning ET. Or better yet, errata it, though that comes with it's own slew of issues.
EDIT: ***** ton of typos. Sue me, it's the morning
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Hey guys, planning on investing in Grixis Shadow. Do any of you think any card from that deck will be banned? Don't want to build it and then find out they ban Death's Shadow or another key card.
Highly unlikely that anything will be banned in the next 6 months. But over the long term you never know, because new cards come out that could break something that's ok now.
To make myself clear: ET is the only problem card in E-Tron. I'm almost certain the deck could work without it and be good enough without kicking all the other midrange decks into tier 4 territory.
Because honestly, I feel that if you ban Temple, then Eldrazi Tron just becomes a worse Tron deck then your standard R/G or B/G Tron list.
Both cards needed to get banned.
Not sure about it then being a bad tron deck. TKS is still a card and adding Ancient Stirrings to a deck like this doesn't exactly make it worse.For one thing it would open up space for different eldrazi decks (Gx mostly).
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
To make myself clear: ET is the only problem card in E-Tron. I'm almost certain the deck could work without it and be good enough without kicking all the other midrange decks into tier 4 territory.
Because honestly, I feel that if you ban Temple, then Eldrazi Tron just becomes a worse Tron deck then your standard R/G or B/G Tron list.
Both cards needed to get banned.
Not sure about it then being a bad tron deck. TKS is still a card and adding Ancient Stirrings to a deck like this doesn't exactly make it worse.For one thing it would open up space for different eldrazi decks (Gx mostly).
I don't think you even understand Eldrazi Tron, Gx Tron, how/why they work, or their place in the meta.
My bad, I looked up the history, you didn't complain about aggro,
you just want combo and big mana out of the format so you can play your favorite decks with fewer weaknesses
You specifically listed Dredge and UR Storm a lot in your complaints, and wrote you're tired of flavor of the month decks and haven't played or enjoyed much modern since Eldrazi Winter.
As much as I hate big mana decks, midrange needs it's checks and balances, too.
Going by your history, you really just want fair decks in modern, and want combo and big mana pushed out so that you can enjoy "quality matches".
People can look on page 1 and page 2 of your history, in case it seems like I'm cherrypicking your words.
Sounds like modern really isn't for you if you dislike all these busted things being done.
less of it. Not none of it..
Why do you strawman soo much?
This format has too much big mana and linear decks. All some people want is a better archtype balance.
To make myself clear: ET is the only problem card in E-Tron. I'm almost certain the deck could work without it and be good enough without kicking all the other midrange decks into tier 4 territory.
Because honestly, I feel that if you ban Temple, then Eldrazi Tron just becomes a worse Tron deck then your standard R/G or B/G Tron list.
Both cards needed to get banned.
Not sure about it then being a bad tron deck. TKS is still a card and adding Ancient Stirrings to a deck like this doesn't exactly make it worse.For one thing it would open up space for different eldrazi decks (Gx mostly).
I don't think you even understand Eldrazi Tron, Gx Tron, how/why they work, or their place in the meta.
do you? I don't really see anything good that they do for this format.
There is no dominant deck in Modern right now. None! The meta is perfectly balanced with a half dozen decks being somewhere between 5-7% of the meta and another 12 decks being between 2-4% of the meta. That leaves something like 25% of the meta for rogue decks. You could not get a better meta for a format if you intentionally designed it that way. We should all remember this moment for all history. I don't think any format has ever had so many viable decks all at once. Ever!
the meta is perfectly balanced? Give me numbers on archtype and colour prevalence to prove this.
I too think eldrazi temple is the no.1 bannable card in Modern, but I also believe it is not bannable enough. Yes, its a strong deck but it won't receive any new cards possibly(although ballista was a great help).
IMO, E tron is the best deck in Modern with a not so small margin.
Maybe but at the same time, I would look to strengthen archetypes instead of banning? I am tired of the solution being ban, because that does the opposite effect of creating a format people can enjoy. It creates a format where people just worry about when their decks are going to be ripped from them by WOTC.
My bad, I looked up the history, you didn't complain about aggro,
you just want combo and big mana out of the format so you can play your favorite decks with fewer weaknesses
You specifically listed Dredge and UR Storm a lot in your complaints, and wrote you're tired of flavor of the month decks and haven't played or enjoyed much modern since Eldrazi Winter.
As much as I hate big mana decks, midrange needs it's checks and balances, too.
Going by your history, you really just want fair decks in modern, and want combo and big mana pushed out so that you can enjoy "quality matches".
People can look on page 1 and page 2 of your history, in case it seems like I'm cherrypicking your words.
Sounds like modern really isn't for you if you dislike all these busted things being done.
less of it. Not none of it..
Why do you strawman soo much?
This format has too much big mana and linear decks. All some people want is a better archtype balance.
I'm strawmannirg because someone says, "present me quotes" that I said that or stop putting words in my mouth and then I present them with where they can find it?
I'm trying to be a little less bias here, you guys have clearly been very anti-big mana and combo decks in most of the two years I've been here.
Some people completely blind here about temple, "Oh, it's still a good deck without temple!"
No, no it isn't. That's like if I told you Affinity lost Mox Opal, Affinity would be playing a cute little 1/1 turn 1, some cute little turn 2 play, and a cute ravager or plating on turn 3.
If Eldrazi Temple was a legendary land I'm not sure the deck could exist either, All is Dust and Karn would certainly not be playable in that deck.
No on in the thread has still yet to present data on why the decks broken except for, "BUT I DONT LIKE IT!"
Seriously, it was only a few months ago about most of the thread vs Gkorou on a Shadow ban.
I seriously doubt there's another huge ban for half a year, better get used to it for the time being.
This format has too much big mana and linear decks. All some people want is a better archtype balance.
If we list off the top decks of the format right now we have Eldrazi Tron, Grixis Shadow, Affinity, UR Gifts Storm, Titanshift, and maybe Burn.
2 of those decks are big mana (Eldrazi Tron & Titanshift)
2 of them are linear strategies (Burn & Affinity)
1 is a Combo deck (UR Gifts Storm)
1 is a Tempo Control/Midrange deck (Grixis Shadow)
If you go to MTGGoldfish and check those deck's meta share (which is honestly our best metric to track the meta right now unless you have a better one) those 6 decks together total 35.85% of the metagame.
The problem decks you mention (big mana and linear strategies) 24.34%. So less than a quarter of the meta is decks you are saying are a problem. Meaning a little more than 75% of the meta isn't these problem decks. So please explain to me know we need better archetype balance in Modern at this moment.
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Claiming everyone has an agenda doesn't make any of your arguments any better.
Nothing is oppressive, and that's what I'm sticking to
Moderns steered clear of awful decks like Eldrazi Winter, Dredge and Amulet Bloom for half a year now, I'm incredibly happy, modern is regulating itself. Jund shadow dominated and forced the meta to adapt, turning into Grixis Death Shadow in order to combat a format that chose to interact heavily.
See everyone is dug into there
Mindsets and won't be convinced. So I'm just gonna say what I want to in regards to modern. To put it how you told me, No one cares if your happy because modern is "regulating itself"
There it is. Please Continue to speak for me, and if that was true I would have been pushing my favorite deck that being big zoo to be better
you just want combo and big mana out of the format so you can play your favorite decks with fewer weaknesses
You specifically listed Dredge and UR Storm a lot in your complaints, and wrote you're tired of flavor of the month decks and haven't played or enjoyed much modern since Eldrazi Winter.
As much as I hate big mana decks, midrange needs it's checks and balances, too.
Going by your history, you really just want fair decks in modern, and want combo and big mana pushed out so that you can enjoy "quality matches".
People can look on page 1 and page 2 of your history, in case it seems like I'm cherrypicking your words.
Sounds like modern really isn't for you if you dislike all these busted things being done.
At this point, everything in Modern at the top outside of UW and UWR, are cheating resources.
That, is Modern.
(I'm just playing Doomfist and punching people right now.)
Spirits
I'm well aware of the current meta shares. My views and opinions are based purely on the fact that Eldrazi Temple is a fundamentally unbalanced card in this field that homogenized midrange decks almost like no card before it (DS decks come off more as tempo decks to me). It would take something like DRS to unseat E-Tron and that's not even remotely possible or healthy.
To make myself clear: ET is the only problem card in E-Tron. I'm almost certain the deck could work without it and be good enough without kicking all the other midrange decks into tier 4 territory.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
I don't want them out of the format, the have their role but having them be so prominent makes the format worse to me and I know I'm not alone. It also depends what big mana and combo decks we are talking about. Im not against all broken things, hell I wouldn't even consider the delve creatures broken. Let me ask this, Would legacy be as praised if a deck like cloudpost was tier 1? This is does not imply that modern should be legacy lite. There are also other ways to check midrange other than big mana.I just want to improve the average game of modern because it's always overshadowed by deck diversity
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
Another interesting topic is the archetype balance vs deck diversity, that we discussed a couple months ago. IMO, both are important for format health and luckily Wizards cares about both, so that's nice. However, true archetype balance is probably not achievable, no matter how you slice the pie (some posters here would argue that aggro will always dominate or that ramp and combo shouldn't be as prevalent as migdrange). At the end of the day, deck diversity is easier to measure and change. I think the real goal is to give players as many options as possible, while ensuring the metagame isn't grossly unbalanced (like a deck being too good or certain archetypes struggling as a whole).
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
So how would you feel if they banned Eldrazi Temple and unbanned Eye of Ugin?
Because honestly, I feel that if you ban Temple, then Eldrazi Tron just becomes a worse Tron deck then your standard R/G or B/G Tron list.
Yes I get that games where your opponent has a 2 Temple into Thought-Knot Seer opener are unfair and feel ridiculously overpowered. But so would a game against Dredge where they turn one Dredge Stinkweed Imp off of Insolent Neonate and hit a Narcomoeba and any number of Prized Amalgam.
The problem with Eldrazi Temple is it should have been Legendary in my opinion. I have no problem with the card existing, and doing what it does. Where the problem exists is when you can have multiples in play and have a curve such as turn 2 TKS and turn 3 Reality Smasher. If you play the second temple and you had to sacrifice the first one, sure you could still do that turn 2 TKS play, but then you couldn't follow it up with a Smasher. Or if you wanted to land the turn 3 Smasher, you'd need to play something other that TKS on turn 2.
I'd be perfectly fine with them making a functional reprint of Temple, with the only difference being that it is Legendary, and then them banning ET. Or better yet, errata it, though that comes with it's own slew of issues.
EDIT: ***** ton of typos. Sue me, it's the morning
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Highly unlikely that anything will be banned in the next 6 months. But over the long term you never know, because new cards come out that could break something that's ok now.
Both cards needed to get banned.
Not sure about it then being a bad tron deck. TKS is still a card and adding Ancient Stirrings to a deck like this doesn't exactly make it worse.For one thing it would open up space for different eldrazi decks (Gx mostly).
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
I don't think you even understand Eldrazi Tron, Gx Tron, how/why they work, or their place in the meta.
Why do you strawman soo much?
This format has too much big mana and linear decks. All some people want is a better archtype balance.
decks playing:
none
decks playing:
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decks playing:
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Infraction issued for spamming. -- CavalryWolfPack
decks playing:
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Maybe but at the same time, I would look to strengthen archetypes instead of banning? I am tired of the solution being ban, because that does the opposite effect of creating a format people can enjoy. It creates a format where people just worry about when their decks are going to be ripped from them by WOTC.
But if they won't/dont I'd suggest a ban.
decks playing:
none
I'm strawmannirg because someone says, "present me quotes" that I said that or stop putting words in my mouth and then I present them with where they can find it?
I'm trying to be a little less bias here, you guys have clearly been very anti-big mana and combo decks in most of the two years I've been here.
Some people completely blind here about temple, "Oh, it's still a good deck without temple!"
No, no it isn't. That's like if I told you Affinity lost Mox Opal, Affinity would be playing a cute little 1/1 turn 1, some cute little turn 2 play, and a cute ravager or plating on turn 3.
If Eldrazi Temple was a legendary land I'm not sure the deck could exist either, All is Dust and Karn would certainly not be playable in that deck.
No on in the thread has still yet to present data on why the decks broken except for, "BUT I DONT LIKE IT!"
Seriously, it was only a few months ago about most of the thread vs Gkorou on a Shadow ban.
I seriously doubt there's another huge ban for half a year, better get used to it for the time being.
If we list off the top decks of the format right now we have Eldrazi Tron, Grixis Shadow, Affinity, UR Gifts Storm, Titanshift, and maybe Burn.
2 of those decks are big mana (Eldrazi Tron & Titanshift)
2 of them are linear strategies (Burn & Affinity)
1 is a Combo deck (UR Gifts Storm)
1 is a Tempo Control/Midrange deck (Grixis Shadow)
If you go to MTGGoldfish and check those deck's meta share (which is honestly our best metric to track the meta right now unless you have a better one) those 6 decks together total 35.85% of the metagame.
The problem decks you mention (big mana and linear strategies) 24.34%. So less than a quarter of the meta is decks you are saying are a problem. Meaning a little more than 75% of the meta isn't these problem decks. So please explain to me know we need better archetype balance in Modern at this moment.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
But even so, I think we will just have to live with it.
As long as we get a new strong nonbasic land hate card, Eldrazi Tron will be kept in check