Historically, unbanning cards has not really worked out well in the long term.
I expect Faeries, Scapeshift, and Zoo players would disagree with this.
Take for example Golgari Grave-Troll. It seemed like a good idea to trying and give graveyard players a second breath of life, but then SoI gave them a bunch of new tools and took the deck over the top, forcing them to basically back pedal. Just leave the ban list as is and enjoy what there is still in the format. Wizards will always print some new card that will be horribly degenerate in modern and make a new T1 deck anyway, we don't need to unban a known card that already was proven to be a troublemaker in the past. I'm just glad Bitterblossom got unbanned and hasn't broken anything.
You say "for example" but seem to ignore the fact that's the only example of a card that got unbanned and then re-banned. And it's worth pointing out that for quite a long time, Golgari Grave-Troll was totally harmless.
I'm not sure what you are referring to as "a known card that was already proven to be a troublemaker in the past." The most recently suggested unbans were Stoneforge, Jace, and Bloodbraid Elf. Stoneforge Mystic and Jace were never proven to be troublemakers in Modern because they weren't legal to begin with. Sure, they were major troublemakers in Standard, but so was CopyCat, and how much of an issue is that in Modern?
If you're referring to Bloodbraid Elf, that makes more sense in that it actually was legal, but the problem is that Bloodbraid Elf ultimately wasn't proven to be a troublemaker, as shown by the fact it being banned didn't really fix things. The actual troublemaker was Deathrite Shaman. In other words, Bloodbraid Elf was not shown to be a "troublemaker" in the format. The main argument for keeping it banned was just that Jund didn't need help, but that's no longer true so at the moment there doesn't really seem a good reason for it to be banned.
Finally, in regards to Bitterblossom... how would it have broken anything? The card's quite innocuous and basically incapable of breaking anything because of just how slow it is.
Honestly, I feel like after the printing of Push, the entire list deserves to be reevaluated. There is no reason for cards that would only be in Infect to be banned, there is no reason for any non-GGT creatures to stay banned (yes this includes DRS), no reason for Depths to stay banned. Push is the most beautiful card printed for Modern in YEARS, maybe the MVP of the entire format. It is a huge shift, and everything needs to be looked at with fresh eyes...braver eyes than Wizards, eyes that actually understand the format even a little bit.
Full disclosure.....yeah, I have some SFM playsets, but aside from REALLY, REALLY wanting to play Preordain in my Dimir control build, I have no desire to play with most of these cards and won't gain or lose much until the next Eldrazi Winter.
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Honestly, I feel like after the printing of Push, the entire list deserves to be reevaluated. There is no reason for cards that would only be in Infect to be banned, there is no reason for any non-GGT creatures to stay banned (yes this includes DRS), no reason for Depths to stay banned. Push is the most beautiful card printed for Modern in YEARS, maybe the MVP of the entire format. It is a huge shift, and everything needs to be looked at with fresh eyes...braver eyes than Wizards, eyes that actually understand the format even a little bit.
Full disclosure.....yeah, I have some SFM playsets, but aside from REALLY, REALLY wanting to play Preordain in my Dimir control build, I have no desire to play with most of these cards and won't gain or lose much until the next Eldrazi Winter.
DRS is still doing a lot of work in legacy. If it's still an amazing creature in THAT format, I don't think we can immediately welcome it with open arms. Also, bear in mind that not every deck can run fatal push. I'd hate for diversity to suffer just so that jund players can go junding again.
Historically, unbanning cards has not really worked out well in the long term.
I expect Faeries, Scapeshift, and Zoo players would disagree with this.
Take for example Golgari Grave-Troll. It seemed like a good idea to trying and give graveyard players a second breath of life, but then SoI gave them a bunch of new tools and took the deck over the top, forcing them to basically back pedal. Just leave the ban list as is and enjoy what there is still in the format. Wizards will always print some new card that will be horribly degenerate in modern and make a new T1 deck anyway, we don't need to unban a known card that already was proven to be a troublemaker in the past. I'm just glad Bitterblossom got unbanned and hasn't broken anything.
You say "for example" but seem to ignore the fact that's the only example of a card that got unbanned and then re-banned. And it's worth pointing out that for quite a long time, Golgari Grave-Troll was totally harmless.
I'm not sure what you are referring to as "a known card that was already proven to be a troublemaker in the past." The most recently suggested unbans were Stoneforge, Jace, and Bloodbraid Elf. Stoneforge Mystic and Jace were never proven to be troublemakers in Modern because they weren't legal to begin with. Sure, they were major troublemakers in Standard, but so was CopyCat, and how much of an issue is that in Modern?
If you're referring to Bloodbraid Elf, that makes more sense in that it actually was legal, but the problem is that Bloodbraid Elf ultimately wasn't proven to be a troublemaker, as shown by the fact it being banned didn't really fix things. The actual troublemaker was Deathrite Shaman. In other words, Bloodbraid Elf was not shown to be a "troublemaker" in the format. The main argument for keeping it banned was just that Jund didn't need help, but that's no longer true so at the moment there doesn't really seem a good reason for it to be banned.
Finally, in regards to Bitterblossom... how would it have broken anything? The card's quite innocuous and basically incapable of breaking anything because of just how slow it is.
I think you misundestood my intent with the Bitterblossom comment. I'm glad that it's innocuous and can't break anything. I hate playing decks that have cards people end up abusing and then forcing wizards hand to go ban the said card, all because a few people decided that winning is more important than building a good social relationship with others at the table and are incapable of policing themselves.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Policing themselves??? We are talking competitive magic here, its not on the players to police themselves.
Troll was a fine, card, as noted it wasnt even GOOD ENOUGH, until Wizards printed like...4 cards that powered up Dredge?
It has NOTHING to do with policing themselves in a competitive constructed format. Good social relationship...w.t.f man.
Be weird about it all you like, but there are a lot of players that play "competitive" level magic that don't really get sportsmanship and fair play. Even with a ban list they'll sometimes stoop to cheating to get what they want and others are mere road bumps to their plans, which is usually just value based rather than achieving any kind of recognition. I respect the pros that shake hands at the end of matches and give good banter to one another, but those players deserve all the hate they have coming at them. They are one of the darker reasons that global format banlists exist, and not just a pro-tour / GP banlist.
Going to have to ask why people are so intense about the banlist discussion, though.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Honestly, I feel like after the printing of Push, the entire list deserves to be reevaluated. There is no reason for cards that would only be in Infect to be banned, there is no reason for any non-GGT creatures to stay banned (yes this includes DRS), no reason for Depths to stay banned. Push is the most beautiful card printed for Modern in YEARS, maybe the MVP of the entire format. It is a huge shift, and everything needs to be looked at with fresh eyes...braver eyes than Wizards, eyes that actually understand the format even a little bit.
Full disclosure.....yeah, I have some SFM playsets, but aside from REALLY, REALLY wanting to play Preordain in my Dimir control build, I have no desire to play with most of these cards and won't gain or lose much until the next Eldrazi Winter.
Yeah I mean push kills eldrazi mimic so we can have eye back too right? Honestly that's a bit of an exaggeration and a lot of the list should stay where it is. What does push do vs depths? Drs is just way too good in a world where people are complaining about jtms being unbanable. Idk that we even want to give gds a better way to find answers either bud. I get the premise but you're going a little over the top.
Do not move the goal posts, I know thats something you struggle with but stay on point here.
Policing themselves has 100% NOTHING to do with banlists, because the only time people need to police themselves is casual, kitchen table magic, that nobody in this thread (if staying on topic) is concerned with.
Banlists exist to keep problematic, or oppressive cards from degrading the quality of competitive, constructed, Modern magic events.
Period.
You are off topic, wayyyyyyyyyy off point, and thats simply fact on this one Colt.
Cheating, sportsmanship, fair play, all valid enough points, but not in the context of banlists and policing ourselves.
People in this thread are intense about banlists because we all to various degrees have opinions on the cards that should or should not be on that list, for use in competitive, constructed, Modern Magic events.
Do not move the goal posts, I know thats something you struggle with but stay on point here.
Policing themselves has 100% NOTHING to do with banlists, because the only time people need to police themselves is casual, kitchen table magic, that nobody in this thread (if staying on topic) is concerned with.
Banlists exist to keep problematic, or oppressive cards from degrading the quality of competitive, constructed, Modern magic events.
Period.
You are off topic, wayyyyyyyyyy off point, and thats simply fact on this one Colt.
Cheating, sportsmanship, fair play, all valid enough points, but not in the context of banlists and policing ourselves.
People in this thread are intense about banlists because we all to various degrees have opinions on the cards that should or should not be on that list, for use in competitive, constructed, Modern Magic events.
It's not off topic to discuss player etiquette and it's relationship to the modern banlist, especially with the return of the modern pro-tour coming back. There are a lot of nuanced subjects in regards to "the health of the meta". It might be more general than strictly a modern subject, though.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think you misundestood my intent with the Bitterblossom comment. I'm glad that it's innocuous and can't break anything. I hate playing decks that have cards people end up abusing and then forcing wizards hand to go ban the said card, all because a few people decided that winning is more important than building a good social relationship with others at the table and are incapable of policing themselves.
Huh? Policing themselves? You mean deliberately playing subpar decks for the purpose of a "good social relationship"?
It's competitive Magic. The whole point is to win (within the rules, of course), so people play the decks that win. That's how it should be. The idea that people should somehow weaken themselves competitively for supposedly "building a good social relationship" (not the point of a competition!) is one of the goofiest ideas I've seen. What, do you think the Chess players who open with e4 rather than e3 are doing something wrong? Or that professional athletes should try to play with just one hand?
But in all seriousness, you could easily swap Probe for Become Immense and be fine, especially with Push, Path, and Thoughtseize being the most played cards in the format
Can you imagine Grixis Shadow with the full playset of Gitaxian Probe available? I have, and in fact, I have tested it. It's disgustingly good. If it was unbanned, it would have to be rebanned, because Death's Shadow is not the problem(the problem is the fact that you can go at low life so quickly+get informations for free).
Even in Become Immense's case, this delve card is not the problem. Probe and fetchlands are.
With the multitude of ways decks can systematically wreck Shadow and the fact that Shadow has to cut 4 cards to make room for another playset of "2 damage to myself", I'm sure it'd be fine. This post reminds me of the cries about how broken Shadow is, despite it being mostly absent from prominent tournament Top 8s.
Honestly, I feel like after the printing of Push, the entire list deserves to be reevaluated. There is no reason for cards that would only be in Infect to be banned, there is no reason for any non-GGT creatures to stay banned (yes this includes DRS), no reason for Depths to stay banned. Push is the most beautiful card printed for Modern in YEARS, maybe the MVP of the entire format. It is a huge shift, and everything needs to be looked at with fresh eyes...braver eyes than Wizards, eyes that actually understand the format even a little bit.
Full disclosure.....yeah, I have some SFM playsets, but aside from REALLY, REALLY wanting to play Preordain in my Dimir control build, I have no desire to play with most of these cards and won't gain or lose much until the next Eldrazi Winter.
...I don't think so.
DRS would really hurt aggro, graveyard decks and combo all at the same time. People don't just have push in every opening hand
Well, you better with your combo deck or LOTV comes out a ton on my turn 2 on the play, good luck combo deck.
It'd be a bad idea, there's been articles about that card being extremely good in legacy and one of the possible targets of a ban years from now.
Huh? Policing themselves? You mean deliberately playing subpar decks for the purpose of a "good social relationship"?
To further Seth's point, I remember when players wouldn't play Eldrazi during Eye of Ugin as a "gentleman's agreement." Do you know what it got them? A handful of losses. I won at a higher clip than I had ever in Modern. My win percentage with UR Eldrazi is over 92%, which is insane considering overall my win percentage in Modern as of today at kavu.ru is 66.21%.
Am I going to turn down free wins and free money? No, it worked out fine for me, destroying all of those "gentleman," usually 2-0.
But in all seriousness, you could easily swap Probe for Become Immense and be fine, especially with Push, Path, and Thoughtseize being the most played cards in the format
Can you imagine Grixis Shadow with the full playset of Gitaxian Probe available? I have, and in fact, I have tested it. It's disgustingly good. If it was unbanned, it would have to be rebanned, because Death's Shadow is not the problem(the problem is the fact that you can go at low life so quickly+get informations for free).
Even in Become Immense's case, this delve card is not the problem. Probe and fetchlands are.
With the multitude of ways decks can systematically wreck Shadow and the fact that Shadow has to cut 4 cards to make room for another playset of "2 damage to myself", I'm sure it'd be fine. This post reminds me of the cries about how broken Shadow is, despite it being mostly absent from prominent tournament Top 8s.
I agree with cfusionpm here. I don't think it's going to change the deck's win percentage all that much. I personally have seen a lot of decks that are just plain ready for Grixis Death's Shadow. My Titanshift runs 2 Relic of Progenitus main. After siding in Tireless Tracker, 2 Obstinate Baloth, a 3rd Relic of Progenitus, 2 Chameleon Colossus, 2 Kitchen Finks, and 2 Beast Within, the matchup suddenly doesn't seem so easy. I've seen an uptick in Burn played. That's not to mention the meta decks that players are running around with.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Honestly, I feel like after the printing of Push, the entire list deserves to be reevaluated. There is no reason for cards that would only be in Infect to be banned, there is no reason for any non-GGT creatures to stay banned (yes this includes DRS), no reason for Depths to stay banned. Push is the most beautiful card printed for Modern in YEARS, maybe the MVP of the entire format. It is a huge shift, and everything needs to be looked at with fresh eyes...braver eyes than Wizards, eyes that actually understand the format even a little bit.
Full disclosure.....yeah, I have some SFM playsets, but aside from REALLY, REALLY wanting to play Preordain in my Dimir control build, I have no desire to play with most of these cards and won't gain or lose much until the next Eldrazi Winter.
...I don't think so.
DRS would really hurt aggro, graveyard decks and combo all at the same time. People don't just have push in every opening hand
Well, you better with your combo deck or LOTV comes out a ton on my turn 2 on the play, good luck combo deck.
It'd be a bad idea, there's been articles about that card being extremely good in legacy and one of the possible targets of a ban years from now.
DRS would hurt modern.
Deathrite Shaman is the only card, together with Mental Misstep and Treasure Cruise that will be a big NO forever. Those 3 cards are the last ones that will be ever unbanned in Modern(tbh, those cards will never be unbanned because they are super format warping)
Bold statement with cards like dread return, skullclamp, jitte, eye, top...
I think you misundestood my intent with the Bitterblossom comment. I'm glad that it's innocuous and can't break anything. I hate playing decks that have cards people end up abusing and then forcing wizards hand to go ban the said card, all because a few people decided that winning is more important than building a good social relationship with others at the table and are incapable of policing themselves.
Huh? Policing themselves? You mean deliberately playing subpar decks for the purpose of a "good social relationship"?
It's competitive Magic. The whole point is to win (within the rules, of course), so people play the decks that win. That's how it should be. The idea that people should somehow weaken themselves competitively for supposedly "building a good social relationship" (not the point of a competition!) is one of the goofiest ideas I've seen. What, do you think the Chess players who open with e4 rather than e3 are doing something wrong? Or that professional athletes should try to play with just one hand?
When I talk about the entire angle with social issues in relation to the list I'm not talking about people who are genuinely competing players. To not get too political here, there are basically try hards who exist who play at the FNM level that never have the time to commit to actually going to a real GP and treat every match like a high level match, even when the opponent is a ten year old fresher. After sleeping on the entire thing, though, they are probably two subjects under the same umbrella. "Fair play" is a subject I hold near and dear and both the banlist and having proper professionalism (not cheating, being a good loser as well as a good winner, etc) when dealing with competitive play is a part of that.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
To be clear, I was not advocating for DRS to be just straight up unbanned. I was saying that every creature that would die to Push on the list deserves to be tested in the new Modern, like by that new testing group Wizards just made.
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Honestly, I feel like after the printing of Push, the entire list deserves to be reevaluated. There is no reason for cards that would only be in Infect to be banned, there is no reason for any non-GGT creatures to stay banned (yes this includes DRS), no reason for Depths to stay banned. Push is the most beautiful card printed for Modern in YEARS, maybe the MVP of the entire format. It is a huge shift, and everything needs to be looked at with fresh eyes...braver eyes than Wizards, eyes that actually understand the format even a little bit.
Full disclosure.....yeah, I have some SFM playsets, but aside from REALLY, REALLY wanting to play Preordain in my Dimir control build, I have no desire to play with most of these cards and won't gain or lose much until the next Eldrazi Winter.
...I don't think so.
DRS would really hurt aggro, graveyard decks and combo all at the same time. People don't just have push in every opening hand
Well, you better with your combo deck or LOTV comes out a ton on my turn 2 on the play, good luck combo deck.
It'd be a bad idea, there's been articles about that card being extremely good in legacy and one of the possible targets of a ban years from now.
DRS would hurt modern.
Deathrite Shaman is the only card, together with Mental Misstep and Treasure Cruise that will be a big NO forever. Those 3 cards are the last ones that will be ever unbanned in Modern(tbh, those cards will never be unbanned because they are super format warping)
Bold statement with cards like dread return, skullclamp, jitte, eye, top...
With the exception of Eye Of Ugin, which could only be unbanned if Temple was to be banned again(which, again, is not happening), Deathrite Shaman being a 1 mana swiss army knife, Treasure Cruise being a sorcery speed 1 mana Ancestral Recall, and Mental Misstep creating 56-card decks, I can surely say those cards would be much more format warping than the rest of the cards.
Honestly, I want no bans except SFM, JTMS, Elf (and those are not mandatory, Modern is fine as it is) Dread Return, Skullclamp, Sensei's Divining Top, umezawa's jitte could be unbanned in a massive unban thought experiment and power would instantly correct power. Problem would be we would become a Legacy-lite format, and that's why they won't be unbanned.
It's just that Deathrite Shaman, Mental Misstep, Treasure Cruise (granted Eye of Ugin as well) that belong in a "ATTENTION! NEVER, EVER UNBAN THOSE CARDS, NO MATTER HOW STRONG THE FORMAT BECOMES".
Again, I feel no card except SFM, JTMS, BBE should be unbanned and even those are maybe risky.
You get my point.
Skullklamp is by far worse than tc and shaman alone. None of these cards will come off ever I just find people's difference in idea of power level interesting.
DRS would really hurt aggro, graveyard decks and combo all at the same time. People don't just have push in every opening hand
Well, you better with your combo deck or LOTV comes out a ton on my turn 2 on the play, good luck combo deck.
It'd be a bad idea, there's been articles about that card being extremely good in legacy and one of the possible targets of a ban years from now.
DRS would hurt modern.
Deathrite Shaman is the only card, together with Mental Misstep and Treasure Cruise that will be a big NO forever. Those 3 cards are the last ones that will be ever unbanned in Modern(tbh, those cards will never be unbanned because they are super format warping)
Bold statement with cards like dread return, skullclamp, jitte, eye, top...
With the exception of Eye Of Ugin, which could only be unbanned if Temple was to be banned again(which, again, is not happening), Deathrite Shaman being a 1 mana swiss army knife, Treasure Cruise being a sorcery speed 1 mana Ancestral Recall, and Mental Misstep creating 56-card decks, I can surely say those cards would be much more format warping than the rest of the cards.
Honestly, I want no bans except SFM, JTMS, Elf (and those are not mandatory, Modern is fine as it is) Dread Return, Skullclamp, Sensei's Divining Top, umezawa's jitte could be unbanned in a massive unban thought experiment and power would instantly correct power. Problem would be we would become a Legacy-lite format, and that's why they won't be unbanned.
It's just that Deathrite Shaman, Mental Misstep, Treasure Cruise (granted Eye of Ugin as well) that belong in a "ATTENTION! NEVER, EVER UNBAN THOSE CARDS, NO MATTER HOW STRONG THE FORMAT BECOMES".
Again, I feel no card except SFM, JTMS, BBE should be unbanned and even those are maybe risky.
You get my point.
Skullklamp is by far worse than tc and shaman alone. None of these cards will come off ever I just find people's difference in idea of power level interesting.
It is interesting. None of those were exactly like my list either. I have it like this in order of last to come off.
1. Eye of Ugin
2. Mental Misstep
3. Skullclamp
Everything else a notch below those. Those should probably perhaps be banned in No Ban List Modern.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
But in all seriousness, you could easily swap Probe for Become Immense and be fine, especially with Push, Path, and Thoughtseize being the most played cards in the format
Can you imagine Grixis Shadow with the full playset of Gitaxian Probe available? I have, and in fact, I have tested it. It's disgustingly good. If it was unbanned, it would have to be rebanned, because Death's Shadow is not the problem(the problem is the fact that you can go at low life so quickly+get informations for free).
Even in Become Immense's case, this delve card is not the problem. Probe and fetchlands are.
With the multitude of ways decks can systematically wreck Shadow and the fact that Shadow has to cut 4 cards to make room for another playset of "2 damage to myself", I'm sure it'd be fine. This post reminds me of the cries about how broken Shadow is, despite it being mostly absent from prominent tournament Top 8s.
You are absolutely wrong. Updating Street Wraith into Gitaxian Probe and adding 2 - 3 Street Wraith in it means the deck would be easily Tier 0(more ways to lower life, getting free information for free)
And tbh, I don't think Grixis Shadow is broken atm, I think it's just a Tier 1 deck with problems, but Gitaxian Probe would push it too much(not theorycrafting here, I am talking after having tested the deck with the card, unlike you).
I know you want Probe to play Grixis Delver again(I want too), but this is not happening, because it would be just wrong for the reasons I stated.
Let's just look at the facts: Gitaxian Probe was in the format since the beginning of Modern and was never a problem in any deck. So if the card was inherently broken on its own, it would have been banned long ago. The "does too much for free" excuse is nonsense. The only reason it was banned was to specifically hit T4 violators like Infect and Zooicide, something which could be easily accomplished by targeting Become Immense (the #1 cause for Turn 4 violations). Never mind that Wizards completely ignores the future impact Fatal Push would have on those decks. Probe was just another wrong decision, made for lazy reasons, because Wizards was incapable identifying the correct problem card without killing the decks and totally unable to see or predict the impact of the ban alongside the obviously-powerful new card: Fatal Push.
Also, I don't know how much you played GDS yourself (I know you have switched to UW/Jeskai recently), but the life loss is a real thing. Adding in MORE life loss may add velocity to a small number of great opening hands, but is a real price to pay against a number of decks (also remember Probe is sorcery speed only). And these fanatical claims of a Tier 0 deck are completely unfounded. They're made worse by the fact that it does nothing to change the deck's gameplan, mode of attack, or do anything to improve its terrible matchups.
Banning Probe completely destroyed multiple decks that didn't need to be destroyed, including ones that weren't even the focus of the ban. Become Immense dealt with the targeted decks without screwing over other players. I don't think Probe will ever be released, based on their stubbornness to take away all reasonable card draw, but it was an innocent card that was incorrectly targeted for the sins of extremely specific decks that could have been hit more elegantly. Like many of their bans, it was sloppy, lazy, and careless.
Edit: all this aside, this is why I am so thrilled about the Play Design team. Hopefully with the help of actually knowledgeable and skillful players, we can avoid stupid decisions like this moving forward.
Has WotC said that the Play Design team will be looking at Modern bans/unbans? My understanding is that the PD team will be looking primarily at the impact of new sets on Standard.
Has WotC said that the Play Design team will be looking at Modern bans/unbans? My understanding is that the PD team will be looking primarily at the impact of new sets on Standard.
Dan Burdick said in an article that their main focus is on Standard and Limited, but that they will also be looking at everything they can. I would imagine that as they look to ban or unban cards for any format the PD team would be the main people involved to at least begin to look at feasibility, but with WotC you never really know.
Has WotC said that the Play Design team will be looking at Modern bans/unbans? My understanding is that the PD team will be looking primarily at the impact of new sets on Standard.
Dan Burdick said in an article that their main focus is on Standard and Limited, but that they will also be looking at everything they can. I would imagine that as they look to ban or unban cards for any format the PD team would be the main people involved to at least begin to look at feasibility, but with WotC you never really know.
Yeah, my interpretation of that is they're just focusing on the new sets, like you said in Standard and Limited. The "everything they can" part to me sounds like just blowing smoke.
Has WotC said that the Play Design team will be looking at Modern bans/unbans? My understanding is that the PD team will be looking primarily at the impact of new sets on Standard.
Dan Burdick said in an article that their main focus is on Standard and Limited, but that they will also be looking at everything they can. I would imagine that as they look to ban or unban cards for any format the PD team would be the main people involved to at least begin to look at feasibility, but with WotC you never really know.
Yeah, my interpretation of that is they're just focusing on the new sets, like you said in Standard and Limited. The "everything they can" part to me sounds like just blowing smoke.
Although I agree the team will primarily focus on Standard and Limited, it's unfair and not really supportable to assume "everything they can" is purely smoke-blowing. Recent M-Files articles indicate that even the last subpar D&D process looked at Modern, so I expect the new one will keep doing the same. Sure, it won't be in the spotlight as much as Standard and Limited, but even if they only look at 1-3 cards per set for Modern that would be awesome. Given the recent track record of considering Modern for D&D, and given this team's purpose at improving the overall testing process, there's no good reason to accuse them of lying/misleading here. Forums like ours are full of accusations like this and they are rarely reasonable. In most cases, big statements like this are well-intentioned and do play out to some extent, even if it isn't the extent we might prefer.
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You say "for example" but seem to ignore the fact that's the only example of a card that got unbanned and then re-banned. And it's worth pointing out that for quite a long time, Golgari Grave-Troll was totally harmless.
I'm not sure what you are referring to as "a known card that was already proven to be a troublemaker in the past." The most recently suggested unbans were Stoneforge, Jace, and Bloodbraid Elf. Stoneforge Mystic and Jace were never proven to be troublemakers in Modern because they weren't legal to begin with. Sure, they were major troublemakers in Standard, but so was CopyCat, and how much of an issue is that in Modern?
If you're referring to Bloodbraid Elf, that makes more sense in that it actually was legal, but the problem is that Bloodbraid Elf ultimately wasn't proven to be a troublemaker, as shown by the fact it being banned didn't really fix things. The actual troublemaker was Deathrite Shaman. In other words, Bloodbraid Elf was not shown to be a "troublemaker" in the format. The main argument for keeping it banned was just that Jund didn't need help, but that's no longer true so at the moment there doesn't really seem a good reason for it to be banned.
Finally, in regards to Bitterblossom... how would it have broken anything? The card's quite innocuous and basically incapable of breaking anything because of just how slow it is.
Full disclosure.....yeah, I have some SFM playsets, but aside from REALLY, REALLY wanting to play Preordain in my Dimir control build, I have no desire to play with most of these cards and won't gain or lose much until the next Eldrazi Winter.
DRS is still doing a lot of work in legacy. If it's still an amazing creature in THAT format, I don't think we can immediately welcome it with open arms. Also, bear in mind that not every deck can run fatal push. I'd hate for diversity to suffer just so that jund players can go junding again.
I think you misundestood my intent with the Bitterblossom comment. I'm glad that it's innocuous and can't break anything. I hate playing decks that have cards people end up abusing and then forcing wizards hand to go ban the said card, all because a few people decided that winning is more important than building a good social relationship with others at the table and are incapable of policing themselves.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Troll was a fine, card, as noted it wasnt even GOOD ENOUGH, until Wizards printed like...4 cards that powered up Dredge?
It has NOTHING to do with policing themselves in a competitive constructed format. Good social relationship...w.t.f man.
Spirits
Be weird about it all you like, but there are a lot of players that play "competitive" level magic that don't really get sportsmanship and fair play. Even with a ban list they'll sometimes stoop to cheating to get what they want and others are mere road bumps to their plans, which is usually just value based rather than achieving any kind of recognition. I respect the pros that shake hands at the end of matches and give good banter to one another, but those players deserve all the hate they have coming at them. They are one of the darker reasons that global format banlists exist, and not just a pro-tour / GP banlist.
Going to have to ask why people are so intense about the banlist discussion, though.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Yeah I mean push kills eldrazi mimic so we can have eye back too right? Honestly that's a bit of an exaggeration and a lot of the list should stay where it is. What does push do vs depths? Drs is just way too good in a world where people are complaining about jtms being unbanable. Idk that we even want to give gds a better way to find answers either bud. I get the premise but you're going a little over the top.
Do not move the goal posts, I know thats something you struggle with but stay on point here.
Policing themselves has 100% NOTHING to do with banlists, because the only time people need to police themselves is casual, kitchen table magic, that nobody in this thread (if staying on topic) is concerned with.
Banlists exist to keep problematic, or oppressive cards from degrading the quality of competitive, constructed, Modern magic events.
Period.
You are off topic, wayyyyyyyyyy off point, and thats simply fact on this one Colt.
Cheating, sportsmanship, fair play, all valid enough points, but not in the context of banlists and policing ourselves.
People in this thread are intense about banlists because we all to various degrees have opinions on the cards that should or should not be on that list, for use in competitive, constructed, Modern Magic events.
Spirits
It's not off topic to discuss player etiquette and it's relationship to the modern banlist, especially with the return of the modern pro-tour coming back. There are a lot of nuanced subjects in regards to "the health of the meta". It might be more general than strictly a modern subject, though.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Zero.
EDIT: Wizards sets the rules. Player's should not have to police themselves as that is NOT how 'fair play' is established.
Spirits
It's competitive Magic. The whole point is to win (within the rules, of course), so people play the decks that win. That's how it should be. The idea that people should somehow weaken themselves competitively for supposedly "building a good social relationship" (not the point of a competition!) is one of the goofiest ideas I've seen. What, do you think the Chess players who open with e4 rather than e3 are doing something wrong? Or that professional athletes should try to play with just one hand?
With the multitude of ways decks can systematically wreck Shadow and the fact that Shadow has to cut 4 cards to make room for another playset of "2 damage to myself", I'm sure it'd be fine. This post reminds me of the cries about how broken Shadow is, despite it being mostly absent from prominent tournament Top 8s.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
...I don't think so.
DRS would really hurt aggro, graveyard decks and combo all at the same time. People don't just have push in every opening hand
Well, you better with your combo deck or LOTV comes out a ton on my turn 2 on the play, good luck combo deck.
It'd be a bad idea, there's been articles about that card being extremely good in legacy and one of the possible targets of a ban years from now.
DRS would hurt modern.
To further Seth's point, I remember when players wouldn't play Eldrazi during Eye of Ugin as a "gentleman's agreement." Do you know what it got them? A handful of losses. I won at a higher clip than I had ever in Modern. My win percentage with UR Eldrazi is over 92%, which is insane considering overall my win percentage in Modern as of today at kavu.ru is 66.21%.
Am I going to turn down free wins and free money? No, it worked out fine for me, destroying all of those "gentleman," usually 2-0.
I agree with cfusionpm here. I don't think it's going to change the deck's win percentage all that much. I personally have seen a lot of decks that are just plain ready for Grixis Death's Shadow. My Titanshift runs 2 Relic of Progenitus main. After siding in Tireless Tracker, 2 Obstinate Baloth, a 3rd Relic of Progenitus, 2 Chameleon Colossus, 2 Kitchen Finks, and 2 Beast Within, the matchup suddenly doesn't seem so easy. I've seen an uptick in Burn played. That's not to mention the meta decks that players are running around with.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Bold statement with cards like dread return, skullclamp, jitte, eye, top...
When I talk about the entire angle with social issues in relation to the list I'm not talking about people who are genuinely competing players. To not get too political here, there are basically try hards who exist who play at the FNM level that never have the time to commit to actually going to a real GP and treat every match like a high level match, even when the opponent is a ten year old fresher. After sleeping on the entire thing, though, they are probably two subjects under the same umbrella. "Fair play" is a subject I hold near and dear and both the banlist and having proper professionalism (not cheating, being a good loser as well as a good winner, etc) when dealing with competitive play is a part of that.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Skullklamp is by far worse than tc and shaman alone. None of these cards will come off ever I just find people's difference in idea of power level interesting.
It is interesting. None of those were exactly like my list either. I have it like this in order of last to come off.
1. Eye of Ugin
2. Mental Misstep
3. Skullclamp
Everything else a notch below those. Those should probably perhaps be banned
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Let's just look at the facts: Gitaxian Probe was in the format since the beginning of Modern and was never a problem in any deck. So if the card was inherently broken on its own, it would have been banned long ago. The "does too much for free" excuse is nonsense. The only reason it was banned was to specifically hit T4 violators like Infect and Zooicide, something which could be easily accomplished by targeting Become Immense (the #1 cause for Turn 4 violations). Never mind that Wizards completely ignores the future impact Fatal Push would have on those decks. Probe was just another wrong decision, made for lazy reasons, because Wizards was incapable identifying the correct problem card without killing the decks and totally unable to see or predict the impact of the ban alongside the obviously-powerful new card: Fatal Push.
Also, I don't know how much you played GDS yourself (I know you have switched to UW/Jeskai recently), but the life loss is a real thing. Adding in MORE life loss may add velocity to a small number of great opening hands, but is a real price to pay against a number of decks (also remember Probe is sorcery speed only). And these fanatical claims of a Tier 0 deck are completely unfounded. They're made worse by the fact that it does nothing to change the deck's gameplan, mode of attack, or do anything to improve its terrible matchups.
Banning Probe completely destroyed multiple decks that didn't need to be destroyed, including ones that weren't even the focus of the ban. Become Immense dealt with the targeted decks without screwing over other players. I don't think Probe will ever be released, based on their stubbornness to take away all reasonable card draw, but it was an innocent card that was incorrectly targeted for the sins of extremely specific decks that could have been hit more elegantly. Like many of their bans, it was sloppy, lazy, and careless.
Edit: all this aside, this is why I am so thrilled about the Play Design team. Hopefully with the help of actually knowledgeable and skillful players, we can avoid stupid decisions like this moving forward.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Dan Burdick said in an article that their main focus is on Standard and Limited, but that they will also be looking at everything they can. I would imagine that as they look to ban or unban cards for any format the PD team would be the main people involved to at least begin to look at feasibility, but with WotC you never really know.
Yeah, my interpretation of that is they're just focusing on the new sets, like you said in Standard and Limited. The "everything they can" part to me sounds like just blowing smoke.
Although I agree the team will primarily focus on Standard and Limited, it's unfair and not really supportable to assume "everything they can" is purely smoke-blowing. Recent M-Files articles indicate that even the last subpar D&D process looked at Modern, so I expect the new one will keep doing the same. Sure, it won't be in the spotlight as much as Standard and Limited, but even if they only look at 1-3 cards per set for Modern that would be awesome. Given the recent track record of considering Modern for D&D, and given this team's purpose at improving the overall testing process, there's no good reason to accuse them of lying/misleading here. Forums like ours are full of accusations like this and they are rarely reasonable. In most cases, big statements like this are well-intentioned and do play out to some extent, even if it isn't the extent we might prefer.