Idk,in my opinion tron is another competitive deck that's here forever, like affinity, burn, fish, etc.
People made the "here forever" arguments about BBE, DRS, Pod, Twin, Seething Song, Rite of Flame, Gitaxian Probe, etc. That's not really an argument for something to stay.
That said, I'll reiterate that as a GB/x player I don't care about regular, U-Tron or Gx-Tron. It's Eldrazi Temple that gets me upset, not the Urza lands.
It ramps faster than any average deck, plays threats that are far more dangerous than any others at the normal turn ratio, a good portion have on cast triggers, and land hate is very specific with a small card pool and narrow design space.
Most people hate Tron because Tron's MU's are so polarized. They hardly have any back and forth 45-55 or 50-50 MU's. They're either 85-15 crushing or 20-80 dogs. That tends to put a sour taste in peoples mouth because they feel like their decisions and actions in the game don't really matter. Which is actually true in a lot of games with a lot of decks against Tron/Eld. Tron decks.
In addition, it requires too many SB cards to even get the MU's to approach even and they're narrow and slow. There's no sinkhole or wasteland in the format.
I've said since the release of the new eldrazi's that they were to overpowered with temples and eyes, they banned the eye but it wasn't enough. The deck is a pain to beat soley because of temple, if they had to assemble Tron rather than hit a single temple they wouldn't be nearly as fast. Magic screwed up when they created the eldrazi's, didnt look at the big picture enough IDK.
People wouldn't hate tron so much right now either if it wasn't for temple, all the "tron" hate is actually temple hate.Eldrazi tron is actually eldrazi temple that happens to use tron lands as backup.
Eldrazi tron doesn't even care about land tutors, they want a temple in their opener.
I've said since the release of the new eldrazi's that they were to overpowered with temples and eyes, they banned the eye but it wasn't enough. The deck is a pain to beat soley because of temple, if they had to assemble Tron rather than hit a single temple they wouldn't be nearly as fast. Magic screwed up when they created the eldrazi's, didnt look at the big picture enough IDK.
People wouldn't hate tron so much right now either if it wasn't for temple, all the "tron" hate is actually temple hate.Eldrazi tron is actually eldrazi temple that happens to use tron lands as backup.
Eldrazi tron doesn't even care about land tutors, they want a temple in their opener.
Eldrazi isnt really the problem. They are a pretty fair deck with lots of interaction points. Turn 3 Reality Smasher or Endbringer is way more fair than turn 3 Karn. Eldrazis also have silver bullets that shut them down like Ensnaring Bridge. To stop actual tron with sideboard cards you need 3 pithing needles naming ostone, karn and ugin. Then you need to pray they dont draw ulamog before you can beat them. It's ridiculous. The only way to stop them is to attack their lands, and modern just doesn't have a reliable way to do that outside of RG ponza.
I still think a strip mine that only hits lands that produce colorless would even the playing field.
People wouldn't hate tron so much right now either if it wasn't for temple, all the "tron" hate is actually temple hate.Eldrazi tron is actually eldrazi temple that happens to use tron lands as backup.
Eldrazi tron doesn't even care about land tutors, they want a temple in their opener.
Nope. Completely wrong. Why even post like you are stating facts when you don't know the deck?
People hate tron because a natural turn 3 tron feels like the most 'naturally' unfair opener in the game. You cannot stop people in this format from just putting a land on the table, and the land hate is limited.
Its really that simple. Turn 3 Tron into 'insert dumb high cmc card here' and that will often enough make a game against a fair deck, simply brutal.
Its actually why I play combo's in some way or another in almost every deck I stick with, playing fair in Modern? Not worth it.
Most people hate Tron because Tron's MU's are so polarized. They hardly have any back and forth 45-55 or 50-50 MU's. They're either 85-15 crushing or 20-80 dogs. That tends to put a sour taste in peoples mouth because they feel like their decisions and actions in the game don't really matter. Which is actually true in a lot of games with a lot of decks against Tron/Eld. Tron decks.
Again, nope. There are a couple really favorable matchups like Abzan and Jund, and also a few bad ones like Affinity, Hatebears and the new Humans deck, which is brutal for ET. Most of the other are in the 55-45 range or at worse 60-40 one way or the other. Of course it's tier 1, so it will be slightly favored more often than not... that's what makes it tier 1.
ET has actually slipped a bit recently with the shift in the meta.
The critical detail there is that Aegraen was talking about Gx Tron, and you're talking about Eldrazi Tron. Completely missed the point.
agreed, no one is really complaining about etron. its Gx tron that is hated.
I feel the need to point out that there are 2 members just on this page of the thread that are complaining about E-Tron. (Look for the ones griping about Eldrazi Temple.)
I also find it amusing that Tron (all variants) has to wait until turn 3 to do its thing (Tron) and it gets called out when there are a few decks out there that can pull off a win by Turn 2 if the stars align.
Frankly I find one of the most "unfair" or "unfun" plays is from black on turn 1 on the play with Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek. Nothing like not even having a card on the board to respond and having your hand picked apart. But hey, its part of the game and I deal with it.
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
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Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
The critical detail there is that Aegraen was talking about Gx Tron, and you're talking about Eldrazi Tron. Completely missed the point.
agreed, no one is really complaining about etron. its Gx tron that is hated.
I feel the need to point out that there are 2 members just on this page of the thread that are complaining about E-Tron. (Look for the ones griping about Eldrazi Temple.)
I also find it amusing that Tron (all variants) has to wait until turn 3 to do its thing (Tron) and it gets called out when there are a few decks out there that can pull off a win by Turn 2 if the stars align.
Frankly I find one of the most "unfair" or "unfun" plays is from black on turn 1 on the play with Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek. Nothing like not even having a card on the board to respond and having your hand picked apart. But hey, its part of the game and I deal with it.
...but this isn't a post about black being hated?
You may be right though that the distinction between what "Tron(tm)" actually is varies a bit. To me when someone uses the generic "Tron" name I assume it to mean Gx tron. Not Blue tron. Not Eldrazi tron. I have no problem with blue tron, and very little problem with eldrazi tron.
Most people hate Tron because Tron's MU's are so polarized. They hardly have any back and forth 45-55 or 50-50 MU's. They're either 85-15 crushing or 20-80 dogs. That tends to put a sour taste in peoples mouth because they feel like their decisions and actions in the game don't really matter. Which is actually true in a lot of games with a lot of decks against Tron/Eld. Tron decks.
Again, nope. There are a couple really favorable matchups like Abzan and Jund, and also a few bad ones like Affinity, Hatebears and the new Humans deck, which is brutal for ET. Most of the other are in the 55-45 range or at worse 60-40 one way or the other. Of course it's tier 1, so it will be slightly favored more often than not... that's what makes it tier 1.
ET has actually slipped a bit recently with the shift in the meta.
The deck is at least 75-25 against any mid-range deck in the format, it's a dog to almost all the aggro decks, and if you don't see your GY hate/Chalice you get destroyed by all the GY-centric combo decks. Honestly, the MU's would be so much more polarized without Chalice. Chalice is the only thing that even gives you a shot to beat LE, Storm, Ad Naus, etc.
I really doubt your burn MU is 55-45, your dredge MU 55-45, Scapeshift/Valakut/TTB 55-45, Infect, Merfolk, etc.
Honestly, I'd be fine with having a go-big mid-range deck like Eld. Tron if it kept its traditionally awful MU's (historically mid-range decks should get stomped by combo decks), but Chalice is too powerful an out for the deck against those MU's.
Eld. Tron imho is a little too good against combo decks right now (I'm perfectly fine seeing it beat up on fair mid-range decks, control decks, and lose horrible to aggro and combo decks).
My main point still stands though - whether right or wrong, the perception of Trons/Eld. Tron's MU being so polarized turns a lot of people off. As someone who plays control 90% of the time and fair mid-range decks like Mardu 10% of the time, I'm perfectly aware of how polarizing playing against the deck is. There's a reason you don't see the same hate for stuff like Jund or Bant Knightfall. It's the people hating on Tron/Dredge/etc. because the MU's are so damn polarizing and the hate so narrow/need so much to make it approach even. IOW, people want more MU parity in the format so they tend to hate on the decks with the most polarizing % of MU's.
Idk,in my opinion tron is another competitive deck that's here forever, like affinity, burn, fish, etc.
People made the "here forever" arguments about BBE, DRS, Pod, Twin, Seething Song, Rite of Flame, Gitaxian Probe, etc.
No they didn't.
The balance of the Urza lands is that there's some assembly required and they play nicely with every color and colorless. And they're lands. They're from the golden age of Magic, yet not on the reserved list. And they're affordable to all but the most financially strapped players.
Most people hate Tron because Tron's MU's are so polarized. They hardly have any back and forth 45-55 or 50-50 MU's. They're either 85-15 crushing or 20-80 dogs. That tends to put a sour taste in peoples mouth because they feel like their decisions and actions in the game don't really matter. Which is actually true in a lot of games with a lot of decks against Tron/Eld. Tron decks.
Again, nope. There are a couple really favorable matchups like Abzan and Jund, and also a few bad ones like Affinity, Hatebears and the new Humans deck, which is brutal for ET. Most of the other are in the 55-45 range or at worse 60-40 one way or the other. Of course it's tier 1, so it will be slightly favored more often than not... that's what makes it tier 1.
ET has actually slipped a bit recently with the shift in the meta.
The deck is at least 75-25 against any mid-range deck in the format, it's a dog to almost all the aggro decks, and if you don't see your GY hate/Chalice you get destroyed by all the GY-centric combo decks. Honestly, the MU's would be so much more polarized without Chalice. Chalice is the only thing that even gives you a shot to beat LE, Storm, Ad Naus, etc.
I really doubt your burn MU is 55-45, your dredge MU 55-45, Scapeshift/Valakut/TTB 55-45, Infect, Merfolk, etc.
Honestly, I'd be fine with having a go-big mid-range deck like Eld. Tron if it kept its traditionally awful MU's (historically mid-range decks should get stomped by combo decks), but Chalice is too powerful an out for the deck against those MU's.
Eld. Tron imho is a little too good against combo decks right now (I'm perfectly fine seeing it beat up on fair mid-range decks, control decks, and lose horrible to aggro and combo decks).
My main point still stands though - whether right or wrong, the perception of Trons/Eld. Tron's MU being so polarized turns a lot of people off. As someone who plays control 90% of the time and fair mid-range decks like Mardu 10% of the time, I'm perfectly aware of how polarizing playing against the deck is. There's a reason you don't see the same hate for stuff like Jund or Bant Knightfall. It's the people hating on Tron/Dredge/etc. because the MU's are so damn polarizing and the hate so narrow/need so much to make it approach even. IOW, people want more MU parity in the format so they tend to hate on the decks with the most polarizing % of MU's.
A user on the ET thread has posted data of over 1000 (yes, one thousand) competitive league matchups played with the deck. There are percentages for all the matchups. You should seek it out and take a look at it because it doesn't match up with your perception of the MUs. The "conventional wisdom" in general about the deck's matchups doesn't hold up. For example, just to touch on a few you mentioned, Dredge is in fact exactly 55-45, Burn is 70-30, Storm is 64-36, and Valakut is 47-53. Granted I think this player is obviously very skilled, so that's a factor too.
Legend said it perfectly about the balance of the urza lands.
Memory lapse made a good point too about what people think when they hear "tron" deck, I agree that I don't think of e.tron or mono U tron either even though they both use the tron lands. I played mono U for a long time and assembling tron isn't top priority,its much slower.
Would tron be so hated if it wasn't for turn 3 karn? For the most part I feel that's what the issue is, not the lands themselves. Ugin, ulamog, emmy, all these huge threats are turn four or more.
Legend said it perfectly about the balance of the urza lands.
Memory lapse made a good point too about what people think when they hear "tron" deck, I agree that I don't think of e.tron or mono U tron either even though they both use the tron lands. I played mono U for a long time and assembling tron isn't top priority,its much slower.
Would tron be so hated if it wasn't for turn 3 karn? For the most part I feel that's what the issue is, not the lands themselves. Ugin, ulamog, emmy, all these huge threats are turn four or more.
Ban Karn and the deck changes from a polarized nightmare to a perfectly fair deck.
End result of this thread = BAN KARN!
Legend said it perfectly about the balance of the urza lands.
Memory lapse made a good point too about what people think when they hear "tron" deck, I agree that I don't think of e.tron or mono U tron either even though they both use the tron lands. I played mono U for a long time and assembling tron isn't top priority,its much slower.
Would tron be so hated if it wasn't for turn 3 karn? For the most part I feel that's what the issue is, not the lands themselves. Ugin, ulamog, emmy, all these huge threats are turn four or more.
Ban Karn and the deck changes from a polarized nightmare to a perfectly fair deck.
End result of this thread = BAN KARN!
I'll do it with a concurrent ban of Liliana of the Veil. Sounds good right? (I already know your answer)
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Legend said it perfectly about the balance of the urza lands.
Memory lapse made a good point too about what people think when they hear "tron" deck, I agree that I don't think of e.tron or mono U tron either even though they both use the tron lands. I played mono U for a long time and assembling tron isn't top priority,its much slower.
Would tron be so hated if it wasn't for turn 3 karn? For the most part I feel that's what the issue is, not the lands themselves. Ugin, ulamog, emmy, all these huge threats are turn four or more.
Ban Karn and the deck changes from a polarized nightmare to a perfectly fair deck.
End result of this thread = BAN KARN!
I'll do it with a concurrent ban of Liliana of the Veil. Sounds good right? (I already know your answer)
Why bring up Liliana? We aren't even talking about that. Spam.
Legend said it perfectly about the balance of the urza lands.
Memory lapse made a good point too about what people think when they hear "tron" deck, I agree that I don't think of e.tron or mono U tron either even though they both use the tron lands. I played mono U for a long time and assembling tron isn't top priority,its much slower.
Would tron be so hated if it wasn't for turn 3 karn? For the most part I feel that's what the issue is, not the lands themselves. Ugin, ulamog, emmy, all these huge threats are turn four or more.
Ban Karn and the deck changes from a polarized nightmare to a perfectly fair deck.
End result of this thread = BAN KARN!
Sure if you call casting Ulamogs, Ugins, and other eldrazi essentially above curve still perfectly fair. Karn is not the reason the deck is hated.
Legend said it perfectly about the balance of the urza lands.
Memory lapse made a good point too about what people think when they hear "tron" deck, I agree that I don't think of e.tron or mono U tron either even though they both use the tron lands. I played mono U for a long time and assembling tron isn't top priority,its much slower.
Would tron be so hated if it wasn't for turn 3 karn? For the most part I feel that's what the issue is, not the lands themselves. Ugin, ulamog, emmy, all these huge threats are turn four or more.
Ban Karn and the deck changes from a polarized nightmare to a perfectly fair deck.
End result of this thread = BAN KARN!
Sure if you call casting Ulamogs, Ugins, and other eldrazi essentially above curve still perfectly fair. Karn is not the reason the deck is hated.
All those thing are 1 turn slower and without the redundancy of Karn, far less of a problem. Turn 3 Karn is by far the greatest offender. Give us a colorless stripmine, or ban Karn and the deck becomes more fair. Also I've said multiple times before I have no problem with eldrazis in general.
Legend said it perfectly about the balance of the urza lands.
Memory lapse made a good point too about what people think when they hear "tron" deck, I agree that I don't think of e.tron or mono U tron either even though they both use the tron lands. I played mono U for a long time and assembling tron isn't top priority,its much slower.
Would tron be so hated if it wasn't for turn 3 karn? For the most part I feel that's what the issue is, not the lands themselves. Ugin, ulamog, emmy, all these huge threats are turn four or more.
Ban Karn and the deck changes from a polarized nightmare to a perfectly fair deck.
End result of this thread = BAN KARN!
I'll do it with a concurrent ban of Liliana of the Veil. Sounds good right? (I already know your answer)
Why bring up Liliana? We aren't even talking about that. Spam.
No need to play coy, you know what I'm asking. Would you agree to ban both Karn and LotV at the same time? If Karn is too oppressive as a possible turn 3 play then why isn't Lily too oppressive at a DEFINITE turn 3 play? Simple question and definitely in the bounds of the thread. I'm genuinely curious. Remember I LIKE 8rack and all its variants and still play my 8Rackdos deck on certain occasions. I hate Affinity but I'm not calling for a ban of anything in it. Heck Black has answers to planes walkers as well as discard. Try finding an answer to planeswalkers in colorless and about the only real answer are 7 cmc cards. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on Karn and move on.
Give us a colorless stripmine
Its called Ghost Quarter. If Strip Mine was in Modern every deck under the Sun would probably run a full playset. I'm going to have to leave it at that, I don't feel like getting worked up about it. See ya' around the boards.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Legend said it perfectly about the balance of the urza lands.
Memory lapse made a good point too about what people think when they hear "tron" deck, I agree that I don't think of e.tron or mono U tron either even though they both use the tron lands. I played mono U for a long time and assembling tron isn't top priority,its much slower.
Would tron be so hated if it wasn't for turn 3 karn? For the most part I feel that's what the issue is, not the lands themselves. Ugin, ulamog, emmy, all these huge threats are turn four or more.
Ban Karn and the deck changes from a polarized nightmare to a perfectly fair deck.
End result of this thread = BAN KARN!
I'll do it with a concurrent ban of Liliana of the Veil. Sounds good right? (I already know your answer)
Why bring up Liliana? We aren't even talking about that. Spam.
No need to play coy, you know what I'm asking. Would you agree to ban both Karn and LotV at the same time? If Karn is too oppressive as a possible turn 3 play then why isn't Lily too oppressive at a DEFINITE turn 3 play? Simple question and definitely in the bounds of the thread. I'm genuinely curious. Remember I LIKE 8rack and all its variants and still play my 8Rackdos deck on certain occasions. I hate Affinity but I'm not calling for a ban of anything in it. Heck Black has answers to planes walkers as well as discard. Try finding an answer to planeswalkers in colorless and about the only real answer are 7 cmc cards. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on Karn and move on.
Are you seriously comparing a turn 3 lili to a turn 3 karn? Really? For starters one costs 3 and was designed around being cast on the third turn. The other costs 7 and was never intended to land on turn 3. WOTC designs cards for standard play. Karn coming out on turn 3 is a byproduct of the eternal format where urza lands are still around. So yeah I think karn on turn 3 is a little more obnoxious than a lili on turn 3.
So yeah I think karn on turn 3 is a little more obnoxious than a lili on turn 3.
Again, I'll say we have to agree to disagree and move on. No need to get upset over it. See ya'.
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
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That said, I'll reiterate that as a GB/x player I don't care about regular, U-Tron or Gx-Tron. It's Eldrazi Temple that gets me upset, not the Urza lands.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
In addition, it requires too many SB cards to even get the MU's to approach even and they're narrow and slow. There's no sinkhole or wasteland in the format.
People wouldn't hate tron so much right now either if it wasn't for temple, all the "tron" hate is actually temple hate.Eldrazi tron is actually eldrazi temple that happens to use tron lands as backup.
Eldrazi tron doesn't even care about land tutors, they want a temple in their opener.
I still think a strip mine that only hits lands that produce colorless would even the playing field.
Nope. Completely wrong. Why even post like you are stating facts when you don't know the deck?
Its really that simple. Turn 3 Tron into 'insert dumb high cmc card here' and that will often enough make a game against a fair deck, simply brutal.
Its actually why I play combo's in some way or another in almost every deck I stick with, playing fair in Modern? Not worth it.
Spirits
Again, nope. There are a couple really favorable matchups like Abzan and Jund, and also a few bad ones like Affinity, Hatebears and the new Humans deck, which is brutal for ET. Most of the other are in the 55-45 range or at worse 60-40 one way or the other. Of course it's tier 1, so it will be slightly favored more often than not... that's what makes it tier 1.
ET has actually slipped a bit recently with the shift in the meta.
agreed, no one is really complaining about etron. its Gx tron that is hated.
Reading comprehension FTW.
I feel the need to point out that there are 2 members just on this page of the thread that are complaining about E-Tron. (Look for the ones griping about Eldrazi Temple.)
I also find it amusing that Tron (all variants) has to wait until turn 3 to do its thing (Tron) and it gets called out when there are a few decks out there that can pull off a win by Turn 2 if the stars align.
Frankly I find one of the most "unfair" or "unfun" plays is from black on turn 1 on the play with Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek. Nothing like not even having a card on the board to respond and having your hand picked apart. But hey, its part of the game and I deal with it.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
You may be right though that the distinction between what "Tron(tm)" actually is varies a bit. To me when someone uses the generic "Tron" name I assume it to mean Gx tron. Not Blue tron. Not Eldrazi tron. I have no problem with blue tron, and very little problem with eldrazi tron.
Your mileage may vary.
The deck is at least 75-25 against any mid-range deck in the format, it's a dog to almost all the aggro decks, and if you don't see your GY hate/Chalice you get destroyed by all the GY-centric combo decks. Honestly, the MU's would be so much more polarized without Chalice. Chalice is the only thing that even gives you a shot to beat LE, Storm, Ad Naus, etc.
I really doubt your burn MU is 55-45, your dredge MU 55-45, Scapeshift/Valakut/TTB 55-45, Infect, Merfolk, etc.
Honestly, I'd be fine with having a go-big mid-range deck like Eld. Tron if it kept its traditionally awful MU's (historically mid-range decks should get stomped by combo decks), but Chalice is too powerful an out for the deck against those MU's.
Eld. Tron imho is a little too good against combo decks right now (I'm perfectly fine seeing it beat up on fair mid-range decks, control decks, and lose horrible to aggro and combo decks).
My main point still stands though - whether right or wrong, the perception of Trons/Eld. Tron's MU being so polarized turns a lot of people off. As someone who plays control 90% of the time and fair mid-range decks like Mardu 10% of the time, I'm perfectly aware of how polarizing playing against the deck is. There's a reason you don't see the same hate for stuff like Jund or Bant Knightfall. It's the people hating on Tron/Dredge/etc. because the MU's are so damn polarizing and the hate so narrow/need so much to make it approach even. IOW, people want more MU parity in the format so they tend to hate on the decks with the most polarizing % of MU's.
No they didn't.
The balance of the Urza lands is that there's some assembly required and they play nicely with every color and colorless. And they're lands. They're from the golden age of Magic, yet not on the reserved list. And they're affordable to all but the most financially strapped players.
QFT
A user on the ET thread has posted data of over 1000 (yes, one thousand) competitive league matchups played with the deck. There are percentages for all the matchups. You should seek it out and take a look at it because it doesn't match up with your perception of the MUs. The "conventional wisdom" in general about the deck's matchups doesn't hold up. For example, just to touch on a few you mentioned, Dredge is in fact exactly 55-45, Burn is 70-30, Storm is 64-36, and Valakut is 47-53. Granted I think this player is obviously very skilled, so that's a factor too.
Memory lapse made a good point too about what people think when they hear "tron" deck, I agree that I don't think of e.tron or mono U tron either even though they both use the tron lands. I played mono U for a long time and assembling tron isn't top priority,its much slower.
Would tron be so hated if it wasn't for turn 3 karn? For the most part I feel that's what the issue is, not the lands themselves. Ugin, ulamog, emmy, all these huge threats are turn four or more.
Ban Karn and the deck changes from a polarized nightmare to a perfectly fair deck.
End result of this thread = BAN KARN!
I'll do it with a concurrent ban of Liliana of the Veil. Sounds good right? (I already know your answer)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Why bring up Liliana? We aren't even talking about that. Spam.
Sure if you call casting Ulamogs, Ugins, and other eldrazi essentially above curve still perfectly fair. Karn is not the reason the deck is hated.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
All those thing are 1 turn slower and without the redundancy of Karn, far less of a problem. Turn 3 Karn is by far the greatest offender. Give us a colorless stripmine, or ban Karn and the deck becomes more fair. Also I've said multiple times before I have no problem with eldrazis in general.
No need to play coy, you know what I'm asking. Would you agree to ban both Karn and LotV at the same time? If Karn is too oppressive as a possible turn 3 play then why isn't Lily too oppressive at a DEFINITE turn 3 play? Simple question and definitely in the bounds of the thread. I'm genuinely curious. Remember I LIKE 8rack and all its variants and still play my 8Rackdos deck on certain occasions. I hate Affinity but I'm not calling for a ban of anything in it. Heck Black has answers to planes walkers as well as discard. Try finding an answer to planeswalkers in colorless and about the only real answer are 7 cmc cards. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on Karn and move on.
Its called Ghost Quarter. If Strip Mine was in Modern every deck under the Sun would probably run a full playset. I'm going to have to leave it at that, I don't feel like getting worked up about it. See ya' around the boards.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Are you seriously comparing a turn 3 lili to a turn 3 karn? Really? For starters one costs 3 and was designed around being cast on the third turn. The other costs 7 and was never intended to land on turn 3. WOTC designs cards for standard play. Karn coming out on turn 3 is a byproduct of the eternal format where urza lands are still around. So yeah I think karn on turn 3 is a little more obnoxious than a lili on turn 3.
Again, I'll say we have to agree to disagree and move on. No need to get upset over it. See ya'.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."