While I concede the point that U is weak in Modern, it does fill a crucial role in non-prison control decks that are viable. No, we don't have a mono U control deck, but that's not the sole metric by which we should measure U's contribution to control, as it still fills an essential role. Permission control is an essential facet of UW control, the best control deck in the format, and without it, the deck couldn't exist.
I know you've said it relies heavily on W, but I'd argue that it's more about W shoring up U's innate weaknesses. U stops additional threats from resolving whereas W answers threats that have already resolved, giving it a greater spectrum of control. Even if U were strong by its own merits, we would still want the W splash. Conversely, W has poor options for dealing with non-creature threats, a weakness that U handles exceptionally well.
My point is that the color pair synergizes extremely well and would exist whether U is weak or not. Again, I do agree that U needs more support than it receives, but I don't want people to confound that with control being unplayable in Modern, which the whole "Blue can't stand on its own" suggests. It lends itself towards being a support color, strong or not. I believe a better argument is that U doesn't pull enough of its own weight in control decks, despite the fact that U's inclusion is still necessary for the decks to function.
I agree with enough of this to drop the argument. We both think blue is weak, and basically relegated to a support role in control decks. Conversely, black is strong and has no limitations. Black does not dominate every deck the way blue does in Legacy, but clearly blue needs some love in modern.
There is no viable blue control shell in Modern period. Blue is a splash color for control, it cannot stand on its own. Black on the other hand has it all. Efficient proactive threat removal with discards. Efficient board removal with Fatal Push. Tasigur, angler, Death's Shadow for cheap finishers. Card draw in multiple flavors. Oh yeah and Liliana...
Blue's weaksauce counterspells are dumpster jank by comparison. All blue does in modern is make other strategies a bit more efficient. Cards like Serum visions and Thoughscour fills up the graveyard and dig towards the cards that actually make a real impact, which are black... Stubborn Denial is probably the best counterspell in modern under 4cc, and that is really sad. Stubborn Denial basically ASSUMES the deck it's being used in has proper non blue critters to do the actual work.
The reason behind it is pretty obvious to me. Blue counterspell draw go decks lead to boring matches. Seriously who wants to have games where no one does anything for 4-5 turns then MAYBE a 1-2cc spell gets resolved. It's bad for business to encourage those kinds of decks.
I disagree with you. Tasigur and Angler are the splash in blue/red decks. With it now being Grixis colors it gave options for better removal in the form of terminate, push, k-command. Most Grixis control decks are splashing for the efficient beaters then better removal. Those delve creatures are insane because of blue. How often do you see a turn 2 Tasigur or angler in jund or Abzan?
Esper gives it the same level of frequency on turn 2.
Honestly i feel blue based decks playing against one another is more fun then any other game i have played with mirror matches. Blue decks are handicapped not by the countermagic, but by your limitations and thoughts of what to counter. Also modern is full of non interactive decks which hurts too.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
There is no viable blue control shell in Modern period. Blue is a splash color for control, it cannot stand on its own. Black on the other hand has it all. Efficient proactive threat removal with discards. Efficient board removal with Fatal Push. Tasigur, angler, Death's Shadow for cheap finishers. Card draw in multiple flavors. Oh yeah and Liliana...
Blue's weaksauce counterspells are dumpster jank by comparison. All blue does in modern is make other strategies a bit more efficient. Cards like Serum visions and Thoughscour fills up the graveyard and dig towards the cards that actually make a real impact, which are black... Stubborn Denial is probably the best counterspell in modern under 4cc, and that is really sad. Stubborn Denial basically ASSUMES the deck it's being used in has proper non blue critters to do the actual work.
The reason behind it is pretty obvious to me. Blue counterspell draw go decks lead to boring matches. Seriously who wants to have games where no one does anything for 4-5 turns then MAYBE a 1-2cc spell gets resolved. It's bad for business to encourage those kinds of decks.
I disagree with you. Tasigur and Angler are the splash in blue/red decks. With it now being Grixis colors it gave options for better removal in the form of terminate, push, k-command. Most Grixis control decks are splashing for the efficient beaters then better removal. Those delve creatures are insane because of blue. How often do you see a turn 2 Tasigur or angler in jund or Abzan?
Esper gives it the same level of frequency on turn 2.
Honestly i feel blue based decks playing against one another is more fun then any other game i have played with mirror matches. Blue decks are handicapped not by the countermagic, but by your limitations and thoughts of what to counter. Also modern is full of non interactive decks which hurts too.
I think we're actually saying the same thing, I just wish blue was better and you do not. Nothing in your post contradicts my assessment of where blue stands and what it does.
There is no viable blue control shell in Modern period. Blue is a splash color for control, it cannot stand on its own. Black on the other hand has it all. Efficient proactive threat removal with discards. Efficient board removal with Fatal Push. Tasigur, angler, Death's Shadow for cheap finishers. Card draw in multiple flavors. Oh yeah and Liliana...
Blue's weaksauce counterspells are dumpster jank by comparison. All blue does in modern is make other strategies a bit more efficient. Cards like Serum visions and Thoughscour fills up the graveyard and dig towards the cards that actually make a real impact, which are black... Stubborn Denial is probably the best counterspell in modern under 4cc, and that is really sad. Stubborn Denial basically ASSUMES the deck it's being used in has proper non blue critters to do the actual work.
The reason behind it is pretty obvious to me. Blue counterspell draw go decks lead to boring matches. Seriously who wants to have games where no one does anything for 4-5 turns then MAYBE a 1-2cc spell gets resolved. It's bad for business to encourage those kinds of decks.
I disagree with you. Tasigur and Angler are the splash in blue/red decks. With it now being Grixis colors it gave options for better removal in the form of terminate, push, k-command. Most Grixis control decks are splashing for the efficient beaters then better removal. Those delve creatures are insane because of blue. How often do you see a turn 2 Tasigur or angler in jund or Abzan?
Esper gives it the same level of frequency on turn 2.
Honestly i feel blue based decks playing against one another is more fun then any other game i have played with mirror matches. Blue decks are handicapped not by the countermagic, but by your limitations and thoughts of what to counter. Also modern is full of non interactive decks which hurts too.
I think we're actually saying the same thing, I just wish blue was better and you do not. Nothing in your post contradicts my assessment of where blue stands and what it does.
Ya i do agree with you. Was mostly just waking up and misread it a bit before coffee so I do apologize. I would like something like Daze, force spike, or counterspell for modern. My big concern would be Delver decks honestly taking a bit of a hard-line tempo approach by also acquiring Disrupting shoul then they would be tempo decks that run a lot of blue spells between 1-3 cmc, but would be fun to play against.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I agree with enough of this to drop the argument. We both think blue is weak, and basically relegated to a support role in control decks. Conversely, black is strong and has no limitations. Black does not dominate every deck the way blue does in Legacy, but clearly blue needs some love in modern.
I disagree with you. Tasigur and Angler are the splash in blue/red decks. With it now being Grixis colors it gave options for better removal in the form of terminate, push, k-command. Most Grixis control decks are splashing for the efficient beaters then better removal. Those delve creatures are insane because of blue. How often do you see a turn 2 Tasigur or angler in jund or Abzan?
Esper gives it the same level of frequency on turn 2.
Honestly i feel blue based decks playing against one another is more fun then any other game i have played with mirror matches. Blue decks are handicapped not by the countermagic, but by your limitations and thoughts of what to counter. Also modern is full of non interactive decks which hurts too.
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
I think we're actually saying the same thing, I just wish blue was better and you do not. Nothing in your post contradicts my assessment of where blue stands and what it does.
Ya i do agree with you. Was mostly just waking up and misread it a bit before coffee so I do apologize. I would like something like Daze, force spike, or counterspell for modern. My big concern would be Delver decks honestly taking a bit of a hard-line tempo approach by also acquiring Disrupting shoul then they would be tempo decks that run a lot of blue spells between 1-3 cmc, but would be fun to play against.
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG