I have been seeing some UW(x) decks run: As Foretold just as a value card without the restore balance jank. What are people's experience with this card?
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
As Foretold is a great example of the risk/reward balance being tested in Modern. The card is amazing when good and absolute trash when it's bad. But broken down a bit more, As Foretold + Ancestral Visions is 2 cards in hand that then become 3 cards in hand and an Enchantment on the battlefield. So you're up +1 cards in hand with the possibility of other free spells in the future. Good, yes, but certainly not back breaking.
But as a late-game top-deck As Foretold is one of the worst cards in the format. That's why IMO it should be played with looting effects to turn it into something useful.
In all I think it's a strong card and I wouldn't fault someone for running it in reactive blue decks, but I also wouldn't fault anybody for NOT including it.
As Foretold is a great example of the risk/reward balance being tested in Modern. The card is amazing when good and absolute trash when it's bad. But broken down a bit more, As Foretold + Ancestral Visions is 2 cards in hand that then become 3 cards in hand and an Enchantment on the battlefield. So you're up +1 cards in hand with the possibility of other free spells in the future. Good, yes, but certainly not back breaking.
But as a late-game top-deck As Foretold is one of the worst cards in the format. That's why IMO it should be played with looting effects to turn it into something useful.
In all I think it's a strong card and I wouldn't fault someone for running it in reactive blue decks, but I also wouldn't fault anybody for NOT including it.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
To expand a bit more, reactive blue decks want to get stronger as the game progresses. But As Foretold gets weaker as the game progresses, unlike something like Sphinx's Revelation. Maybe the rest of the deck + looting can make up for it - we'll only find out from brewing and testing and seeing if any lists show results.
To expand a bit more, reactive blue decks want to get stronger as the game progresses. But As Foretold gets weaker as the game progresses, unlike something like Sphinx's Revelation. Maybe the rest of the deck + looting can make up for it - we'll only find out from brewing and testing and seeing if any lists show results.
If anything this is why I'm interested in it. One of the big issues about late game bombs is closing out the game. As Foretold helps control get to a point where it can close out.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
To expand a bit more, reactive blue decks want to get stronger as the game progresses. But As Foretold gets weaker as the game progresses, unlike something like Sphinx's Revelation. Maybe the rest of the deck + looting can make up for it - we'll only find out from brewing and testing and seeing if any lists show results.
If anything this is why I'm interested in it. One of the big issues about late game bombs is closing out the game. As Foretold helps control get to a point where it can close out.
Does it? Most of that "getting to the point when..." happens between turns 1 and 3.
I like the card. It's difficult to see where it fits right now, maybe it doesn't. Give it six months to a year and someone will have an interesting brew that uses it fairly well.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
To expand a bit more, reactive blue decks want to get stronger as the game progresses. But As Foretold gets weaker as the game progresses, unlike something like Sphinx's Revelation. Maybe the rest of the deck + looting can make up for it - we'll only find out from brewing and testing and seeing if any lists show results.
If anything this is why I'm interested in it. One of the big issues about late game bombs is closing out the game. As Foretold helps control get to a point where it can close out.
Does it? Most of that "getting to the point when..." happens between turns 1 and 3.
I like the card. It's difficult to see where it fits right now, maybe it doesn't. Give it six months to a year and someone will have an interesting brew that uses it fairly well.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
So after 10 leagues with the As Foretold version of the deck I can say im off it. I kept excel spreadsheets of data as I always do and compared it to regular U/W control for reference. I also put in the spreadsheet which changes I made after each league to the deck, the core of the deck never changed. I noticed I was slowly trickling down on As Foretold as the matches went on, first I cut to 3, then 2, and considered going to 1 but realized that I wouldn't be playing an as Foretold deck anymore, it would just be U/W with a spicy one of like you see with crucible sometimes. The only other concession I made in the deck for As Foretold for testing purposes was 2 Tolaria West, which eventually went down to 1.
My biggest concern with As Foretold over regular UW was that some of my good MU percentages were going down directly because of As Foretold. The DS MU got worse because I have another card they don't care about in my deck. This is not where I want to be right now, even MU like Eldrazi, Eldrazi Tron and Affinity got worse because I need to be a pure CAB deck in those MU, and As Foretold takes a long time to make up for itself.
Initially I was pretty impressed with it. There were some cool t4's where you can serum off of as foretold, wrath there board and hold up path still. Having "six" mana on t4 is a pretty big deal for a blue control deck. However I probably would have been just as good if it had been another peice of interaction. However, that being said, I do think there is something there for As Foretold. I don't know what kind of shell, or if it will take a completely different UW shell or deck shell all together but I think it has a lot of potential. The card definitely tickles the Johny in me as well, casting Elspeth for free, drawing three cards for 0 mana and holding up five different cards on OP's turn feels great.
Coincidentally, when I went back to testing regular UW, the fist league I did I 5-0d and it just feels much better.
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To add to that I would like to emphasize that I think there is something there, but I don't think just putting it in a mostly normal U/W shell is correct.
To expand a bit more, reactive blue decks want to get stronger as the game progresses. But As Foretold gets weaker as the game progresses, unlike something like Sphinx's Revelation. Maybe the rest of the deck + looting can make up for it - we'll only find out from brewing and testing and seeing if any lists show results.
If anything this is why I'm interested in it. One of the big issues about late game bombs is closing out the game. As Foretold helps control get to a point where it can close out.
Actually what I liked most about it in UW was being able to tap out for a bomb like elspeth and still be able to hold up interaction. A lot of times you get stuck on 6 or seven lands in UW, and you don't want to leave your win con vulnerable. Theres also the horror story "tap out for unbeatable bomb, OP topdecks pulse GG". Snapcaster pretty much just being "flash this spell back for its CMC, get a free 2/1 was also great, it lets you do stuff like flashback a cryptic with only 4 lands in play.
To expand a bit more, reactive blue decks want to get stronger as the game progresses. But As Foretold gets weaker as the game progresses, unlike something like Sphinx's Revelation. Maybe the rest of the deck + looting can make up for it - we'll only find out from brewing and testing and seeing if any lists show results.
If anything this is why I'm interested in it. One of the big issues about late game bombs is closing out the game. As Foretold helps control get to a point where it can close out.
Does it? Most of that "getting to the point when..." happens between turns 1 and 3.
I like the card. It's difficult to see where it fits right now, maybe it doesn't. Give it six months to a year and someone will have an interesting brew that uses it fairly well.
turns 1-3 = early game. Turns 4-8 = midgame.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Oddly enough, I don't think that As Foretold belongs in the UW shell so we agree. UW has a big curve so as foretold can only really be used to hold up a counterspell. I'm more intrigued by it in a shell with a very low curve.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
While I haven't tested any of this since I don't play modern (but just thought of a brew), I think that As Foretold is probably not fit for a simple UW shell. As Foretold lets you really cheat on mana, so why not take that to its absolute maximum extent? UWR seems like a perfect fit.
R gives you access to Blood Moon to really batten down the hatches and super cheat on mana with As Foretold
W gives you access to Path to Exile, the best removal spell in the format (which isn't fantastic with blood moon, admittedly, but surviving until you win has a charm of its own)
U gives you access to As Foretold, Cryptic to protect it, Mana Leak to survive the crucial early turns, Tolaria West to tutor for 0 drops (like Ancestral Visions) and, through As Foretold, Living End, which acts as a functional boardwipe in nearly all situations. Couple with cycling creatures from Amonkhet for a finisher.
B seems like a poor color because of the lack of exile effects that function poorly with Living End.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
But as a late-game top-deck As Foretold is one of the worst cards in the format. That's why IMO it should be played with looting effects to turn it into something useful.
In all I think it's a strong card and I wouldn't fault someone for running it in reactive blue decks, but I also wouldn't fault anybody for NOT including it.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Looting effects like Jace, Vryn's Prodigy/izzet charm and/or using Liliana of the Veil to get rid of it late game do have me interested in brewing it in grixis. As foretold also lets Jace, Telepath Unbound target Ancestral Vision which is interesting.
A Jeskai version could also use izzet charm/Nahiri, the Harbinger as its ways to get rid of extra As foretolds
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
If anything this is why I'm interested in it. One of the big issues about late game bombs is closing out the game. As Foretold helps control get to a point where it can close out.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Does it? Most of that "getting to the point when..." happens between turns 1 and 3.
I like the card. It's difficult to see where it fits right now, maybe it doesn't. Give it six months to a year and someone will have an interesting brew that uses it fairly well.
Does it? Most of that "getting to the point when..." happens between turns 1 and 3.
I like the card. It's difficult to see where it fits right now, maybe it doesn't. Give it six months to a year and someone will have an interesting brew that uses it fairly well.
So after 10 leagues with the As Foretold version of the deck I can say im off it. I kept excel spreadsheets of data as I always do and compared it to regular U/W control for reference. I also put in the spreadsheet which changes I made after each league to the deck, the core of the deck never changed. I noticed I was slowly trickling down on As Foretold as the matches went on, first I cut to 3, then 2, and considered going to 1 but realized that I wouldn't be playing an as Foretold deck anymore, it would just be U/W with a spicy one of like you see with crucible sometimes. The only other concession I made in the deck for As Foretold for testing purposes was 2 Tolaria West, which eventually went down to 1.
My biggest concern with As Foretold over regular UW was that some of my good MU percentages were going down directly because of As Foretold. The DS MU got worse because I have another card they don't care about in my deck. This is not where I want to be right now, even MU like Eldrazi, Eldrazi Tron and Affinity got worse because I need to be a pure CAB deck in those MU, and As Foretold takes a long time to make up for itself.
Initially I was pretty impressed with it. There were some cool t4's where you can serum off of as foretold, wrath there board and hold up path still. Having "six" mana on t4 is a pretty big deal for a blue control deck. However I probably would have been just as good if it had been another peice of interaction. However, that being said, I do think there is something there for As Foretold. I don't know what kind of shell, or if it will take a completely different UW shell or deck shell all together but I think it has a lot of potential. The card definitely tickles the Johny in me as well, casting Elspeth for free, drawing three cards for 0 mana and holding up five different cards on OP's turn feels great.
Coincidentally, when I went back to testing regular UW, the fist league I did I 5-0d and it just feels much better.
-------------------------------------
To add to that I would like to emphasize that I think there is something there, but I don't think just putting it in a mostly normal U/W shell is correct.
Actually what I liked most about it in UW was being able to tap out for a bomb like elspeth and still be able to hold up interaction. A lot of times you get stuck on 6 or seven lands in UW, and you don't want to leave your win con vulnerable. Theres also the horror story "tap out for unbeatable bomb, OP topdecks pulse GG". Snapcaster pretty much just being "flash this spell back for its CMC, get a free 2/1 was also great, it lets you do stuff like flashback a cryptic with only 4 lands in play.
We will rebuild.
turns 1-3 = early game. Turns 4-8 = midgame.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)