there will be no control decks in modern. logic knot is too strong for standard, miscalculation as well and so many other cards that would help control are.
there will be no good reactive answers in standard so nothing good that will get here in modern will be printed in the future
if you are not happy with how wotc handles control go play cancerous decks. go play lantern control, turns, 8 rack, taxes and such other prison decks. go ruin as many games as possible.
would you like a meta full of prison decks? it seems it is the only thing one can do if he wants to play some control strategy
Grixis Control, UW Control, and UW Emeria are all control decks to some degree. And they don't use prison strategy.
Grinded out a game against a Grixis control deck at Sunday Night Magic.. I won game one, but lost game 2 and 3 because he was able to assemble the annoying Tasigur + Kolaghans Command loop. I was inexperienced in the matchup and did not bring in any grave removal. Killed his Tasigur 3 times, but he was always able to bring it back.
Technically prison is a subset of control, like a tomato is a fruit... it doesn't help understand what a tomato is or how it should be used. That's why we classify them separately.
There are plenty of ways to play Control and it seems silly to yuck someone else's yum (I know several folks who adore the strategies you're saying are cancerous) you just have to be willing to explore a way that isn't draw-go. The only way draw-go would work in Modern is if there were more 1- and 0- mana options, which isn't going to happen.
We could have Counterspell and Daze, and Draw Go still wouldn't be a thing because Modern is not solved like Standard was when Draw Go was a thing. You have hordes of matchups to prepare agains and almost every deck has an inevitability engine.
UTron gets to be cute playing counterspells because it's Tron and casting Ugin/Karn/Ulamog for 3-4 lands is broken wether you ramp into them or durdle into them.
I'd say that it depends on what you mean by "viable." I've done okay with UW, UB, Esper, Temur, and Grixis control lists over the years, but that's only at an FNM level. I have a much smaller metagame to plan for. However, I would say that Prison based control is the easiest to play and design in as diverse a format as Modern. Modern has a historic lack of efficient card selection, card advantage, and generally effective reactive answers- the cornerstones of a traditional "draw-go" deck. Prison strategies get around that by blanking your opponent's cards to gain virtual card advantage and by only needing specific answer cards to defend themselves against the meta. There are other ways around the issues, like Kolaghan/Snap loops, Lingering Souls/mutual discard, and now potentially Loam/Cycle Lands, but they come with trade offs.
If I had to pick a single option to make control a better option, it would be to print new cards like Kolaghan's Command. It combines niche answers and more generally useful answers into a single card, which is really where control needs to be.
Going by the current numbers, UW is about the only option. Grixis is not necessarily terrible, but it's also not good either. Plus there's the pesky thing about Grixis Shadow being so much better. Jeskai hasn't been relevant in a long time and Esper is fringe at best. UR is bottom of the barrel because it simply cannot kill things effectively that don't die to Bolt and no longer have a quick win condition to capitalize on. UW is the best option right now because, although it has some absolutely atrocious matchups, it has fantastic matchups against many of the best decks (Death's Shadow, Eldrazi, etc). But it all boils down to your local meta, what decks others are playing, and what kinds of cards are needed to beat them.
For the most part, "Control" and reactive style decks are a terrible place to be, and have been for more than a year. They're not unplayable, but are wildly reliant on positive matchups and positive variance. Rather than threatening to win, its good draws simply prevent or delay dying. Almost every game feels like a constant uphill battle that can be lost at any time. Wins are sweet and satisfying, but also long and draining. Fatigue over multiple rounds along with general weakness of answers and lack of closing speed are probably why they are nowhere to be seen at top tables of big events. Fine for FNMs, but I wouldn't take one to a large event whatsoever.
The OP question makes a lot of assumptions that are incorrect. First it assumes that control decks are either blue centered around counters or white centered around enchantment. It leaves out control decks that are BLACK and centered around discard. 8Rack is the purest control deck in the format and has been since Modern was created.
So I hear you like control? Stop playing counterspells. Get in front of the threats with discard. COunter magic in Modern is very weak, but discard in modern is nearly as strong as it is in legacy. Think about that for a second, then rewrite the OP.
We could have Counterspell and Daze, and Draw Go still wouldn't be a thing because Modern is not solved like Standard was when Draw Go was a thing. You have hordes of matchups to prepare agains and almost every deck has an inevitability engine.
UTron gets to be cute playing counterspells because it's Tron and casting Ugin/Karn/Ulamog for 3-4 lands is broken wether you ramp into them or durdle into them.
This is so true. The most dominant deck (Death's Shadow Jund) is only 9% of the field according to MTGGoldfish. There are just so many viable strategies in Modern, an old-school style control deck can never prepare them all. Modern is a very balanced and diverse format right now.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WoTC, thank you for finally announcing the Modern format, an eternal format where everyone can participate.
This is so true. The most dominant deck (Death's Shadow Jund) is only 9% of the field according to MTGGoldfish. There are just so many viable strategies in Modern, an old-school style control deck can never prepare them all. Modern is a very balanced and diverse format right now.
Don't you feel that this is contradictory? Lacking control while also being balanced? To me that seems 1/3 short of balance.
That's only one way of looking at a format.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WoTC, thank you for finally announcing the Modern format, an eternal format where everyone can participate.
@Memory Lapse is correct, I think. Discard seems to be the most popular form of control in Modern right now, and it's darn annoying to play against. I HATE playing against discard, so that probably is a good clue that it's effective.
Counterpells can also be effective though, and Mana Leak and Remand see a good bit of play. The advantage of counterspells over discard is that you make your opponent tap out their mana for no effect. Yeah, you got to 5 mana, time to make your big play .... and Mana Leak.
Prison strategies are mostly using Chalice of the Void and/or Blood Moon. Fun times for the caster, not so much the opponent. The downside is if you don't draw into these cards early, your prison deck is DOA.
Logic knot is modern legal...
Control is bad strategy, because it has a passive plan. This can work vs 1/1s for 1 that can't aggro you before you sweep the board. When was the last time when Draw-go was good? Early 00s?
Well, it won a Pro Tour in 2014. Or does it not count as "true" Draw-Go because it ran a few Sorcery-speed spells like Jace, Divination, and the sweepers?
List of Control Decks that are not what i consider "prison":
-Skred
-Grixis Control
-U/W Control
-(classic) Jund/Junk
-8 rack (lel)
-Martyr Lifegain
-Tron
-all the ones that i forgot about
That leaves only one answer - prison is not the only viable way to play control at all.
Most of these decks aren't control decks:
"Tron" is a ramp deck (unless u mean "U-Tron" which is closer to a control deck), "Junk/Jund" (and also "Skred") are midrange decks, "8-Rack" is more of prison-lock (by means of discard) deck than a control deck imho and "Martyr-Proc" is a midrange/combo hybrid.
"8-Rack" and "Martyr-Proc" aren't exactly competitive decks now as well.
Logic knot is modern legal...
Control is bad strategy, because it has a passive plan. This can work vs 1/1s for 1 that can't aggro you before you sweep the board. When was the last time when Draw-go was good? Early 00s?
Well, it won a Pro Tour in 2014. Or does it not count as "true" Draw-Go because it ran a few Sorcery-speed spells like Jace, Divination, and the sweepers?
Where are the 20+ counterspells?
Where are the 20+ counterspells in this deck? Or this deck? That's Psychatog, which is often held up as the quintessential Draw-Go. Those decks aren't running close to 20 counterspells.
Beyond that, since when was running a lot of counterspells a requirement for Draw-Go? The definition of Draw-Go is given by its name: It's a deck where you principally draw a card, play a land, then say "go" because you, instead of casting or doing much of anything during your turn, leave mana open to answer your opponents' spells... or, if they don't cast anything you care about, cast some card drawing spells (e.g. Fact or Fiction or Sphinx's Revelation). Counterspells were often the answer of choice in older Draw-Go decks--though not to the extent you're claiming--but that wasn't really the definition of the deck.
Prison decks allow the opponent to do things, rarely countering. They then eat turn by turn at their options so they narrow, and eventually can do nothing of significance, they often have strong elements of recursion and mana denial.
Top in Modern is a prison deck. 8 rack is not a prison deck- many issues don't even run Bridge- it is a control deck. Discard does not make a prison. Taxes, whatever that is - hatebears presumably- is not a prison deck either, it has some prison elements. Then again recurring a Martyr or Fog kami in Martyr Proc is pretty prison-ish, in the same way Blood Moon is prison-ish, but none of the decks they are in are full on prison. Modern has few prison decks, but no Humility hurts, whilst Chalice and to a much lesser extent Trinisphere are decent in Modern but not archetype defining as in Legacy due to the absence of Sol lands. Crucible can't wastelock either- no Wasteland for it to go with.
As for cancerous decks, in Legacy people often refer to combo decks like Belcher as cancerous.
I play Prison as often as I can- Enchantment Control/Enduring Ideal, Land destruction etc. In Legacy I like some Pox and a whole host of Tabernacle /3sphere Chalice and Stax decks, I love my Moats, Nethervoids and other assorted "unfun" cards, and yet I have only ever had compliments from experienced players. It seems to me the OP is using cancerous decks as shorthand for "decks I dislike". Speaking as a Prison player, how miffed do you think I am at Wizards' handling of MTG?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
Azorius Titan control
UW control
UWR Nahiri control
Esper Control
These are all non prison control decks you can run, but control decks that have Ensnaring Bridge or Blood Moon are just better because those cards are so good, and answer more than just a mana leak would.
RW Blood Moon
8rack
Skred Red
Top Control
These are better control decks. So yeah, prison control decks in modern are currently better positioned, but you can still play non prison control decks.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
there will be no good reactive answers in standard so nothing good that will get here in modern will be printed in the future
if you are not happy with how wotc handles control go play cancerous decks. go play lantern control, turns, 8 rack, taxes and such other prison decks. go ruin as many games as possible.
would you like a meta full of prison decks? it seems it is the only thing one can do if he wants to play some control strategy
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
Grinded out a game against a Grixis control deck at Sunday Night Magic.. I won game one, but lost game 2 and 3 because he was able to assemble the annoying Tasigur + Kolaghans Command loop. I was inexperienced in the matchup and did not bring in any grave removal. Killed his Tasigur 3 times, but he was always able to bring it back.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
U Mono Best Tron
RUG Monkey Grow Delver
RUGW Cats n' Gnats
UR Wizard Tribal with Grapeshot Combo
UTron gets to be cute playing counterspells because it's Tron and casting Ugin/Karn/Ulamog for 3-4 lands is broken wether you ramp into them or durdle into them.
If I had to pick a single option to make control a better option, it would be to print new cards like Kolaghan's Command. It combines niche answers and more generally useful answers into a single card, which is really where control needs to be.
For the most part, "Control" and reactive style decks are a terrible place to be, and have been for more than a year. They're not unplayable, but are wildly reliant on positive matchups and positive variance. Rather than threatening to win, its good draws simply prevent or delay dying. Almost every game feels like a constant uphill battle that can be lost at any time. Wins are sweet and satisfying, but also long and draining. Fatigue over multiple rounds along with general weakness of answers and lack of closing speed are probably why they are nowhere to be seen at top tables of big events. Fine for FNMs, but I wouldn't take one to a large event whatsoever.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
So I hear you like control? Stop playing counterspells. Get in front of the threats with discard. COunter magic in Modern is very weak, but discard in modern is nearly as strong as it is in legacy. Think about that for a second, then rewrite the OP.
This is so true. The most dominant deck (Death's Shadow Jund) is only 9% of the field according to MTGGoldfish. There are just so many viable strategies in Modern, an old-school style control deck can never prepare them all. Modern is a very balanced and diverse format right now.
That's only one way of looking at a format.
@Memory Lapse is correct, I think. Discard seems to be the most popular form of control in Modern right now, and it's darn annoying to play against. I HATE playing against discard, so that probably is a good clue that it's effective.
Counterpells can also be effective though, and Mana Leak and Remand see a good bit of play. The advantage of counterspells over discard is that you make your opponent tap out their mana for no effect. Yeah, you got to 5 mana, time to make your big play .... and Mana Leak.
Prison strategies are mostly using Chalice of the Void and/or Blood Moon. Fun times for the caster, not so much the opponent. The downside is if you don't draw into these cards early, your prison deck is DOA.
Well, it won a Pro Tour in 2014. Or does it not count as "true" Draw-Go because it ran a few Sorcery-speed spells like Jace, Divination, and the sweepers?
Maybe this is a better example.
Most of these decks aren't control decks:
"Tron" is a ramp deck (unless u mean "U-Tron" which is closer to a control deck), "Junk/Jund" (and also "Skred") are midrange decks, "8-Rack" is more of prison-lock (by means of discard) deck than a control deck imho and "Martyr-Proc" is a midrange/combo hybrid.
"8-Rack" and "Martyr-Proc" aren't exactly competitive decks now as well.
Beyond that, since when was running a lot of counterspells a requirement for Draw-Go? The definition of Draw-Go is given by its name: It's a deck where you principally draw a card, play a land, then say "go" because you, instead of casting or doing much of anything during your turn, leave mana open to answer your opponents' spells... or, if they don't cast anything you care about, cast some card drawing spells (e.g. Fact or Fiction or Sphinx's Revelation). Counterspells were often the answer of choice in older Draw-Go decks--though not to the extent you're claiming--but that wasn't really the definition of the deck.
Prison decks allow the opponent to do things, rarely countering. They then eat turn by turn at their options so they narrow, and eventually can do nothing of significance, they often have strong elements of recursion and mana denial.
Top in Modern is a prison deck. 8 rack is not a prison deck- many issues don't even run Bridge- it is a control deck. Discard does not make a prison. Taxes, whatever that is - hatebears presumably- is not a prison deck either, it has some prison elements. Then again recurring a Martyr or Fog kami in Martyr Proc is pretty prison-ish, in the same way Blood Moon is prison-ish, but none of the decks they are in are full on prison. Modern has few prison decks, but no Humility hurts, whilst Chalice and to a much lesser extent Trinisphere are decent in Modern but not archetype defining as in Legacy due to the absence of Sol lands. Crucible can't wastelock either- no Wasteland for it to go with.
As for cancerous decks, in Legacy people often refer to combo decks like Belcher as cancerous.
I play Prison as often as I can- Enchantment Control/Enduring Ideal, Land destruction etc. In Legacy I like some Pox and a whole host of Tabernacle /3sphere Chalice and Stax decks, I love my Moats, Nethervoids and other assorted "unfun" cards, and yet I have only ever had compliments from experienced players. It seems to me the OP is using cancerous decks as shorthand for "decks I dislike". Speaking as a Prison player, how miffed do you think I am at Wizards' handling of MTG?
UW control
UWR Nahiri control
Esper Control
These are all non prison control decks you can run, but control decks that have Ensnaring Bridge or Blood Moon are just better because those cards are so good, and answer more than just a mana leak would.
RW Blood Moon
8rack
Skred Red
Top Control
These are better control decks. So yeah, prison control decks in modern are currently better positioned, but you can still play non prison control decks.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB