Didn't even realized that Affinity was the most played deck online. Didn't realize that Dredge showed up in those numbers. Didn't know that Storm was that high. Didn't know Elves was played the 8th most.
After these came Abzan, Bant Eldrazi, Jund, and non Eldrazi Tron. What a fall for the top decks before Shadow became prominent.
I should say that seeing this was an eye opener. Preordain would definitely fit in Storm. Jace, the Mind Sculptor fits in literally none of those decks. Even Stoneforge Mystic, in all its power and glory, wouldn't do all too much to that metagame. So if these are very viable stats, I retract my statement of Preordain being number 1 on the list. It's more like this now.
1. Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2. Stoneforge Mystic
3. Preordain
Also with the meta seemingly SO spread out in percentages, it would seem that no unban is on the horizon. But I have seen that Wizards is looking for "something to help certain colors." Sounds like Jace, the Mind Sculptor or Stoneforge Mystic. It makes me somewhat sad for Preordain, which I feel will be fine, but it is not first in line (at least according to this).
Not surprised at all I've been saying it for awhile, if you want to beat 8 1c.c. discard spell decks you probably want to play a very redundant strategy. .Affinity, Burn, Storm all super redundant. Eldrazi Tron naturally blanks IoK and Push most the time and of course dredge probably wouldn't mind you forcing them to discard.
Anyone else watch the recent Magic TV? pretty good one, glade to hear that some evidence for WotC bringing back the Core Set to standard. Will help inject more playable reprints into the modern card pool and help balance Standards power creep (just noticed that since its removal Standards Power Creep has only risen by a factor every block).
Also Frank Lepore talked about how counterspell wouldn't even be very good in standard currently because of the volume of early threats. He had a little thought experiment that even if it was U counter target spell, that it wouldn't even be as good as fatal push because of just how fast Magic has gotten. He called it a blue fatal push.
My question is, Would that be better or worse than fatal push in modern? It would have the advantage of countering non-creature spells when needed but in reality most of the non-creature spells you want to counter are easily within counterspells ability to handle. Has the disadvantage of not being able to do anything about a resolved threat.
Just wondering what other peoples thoughts are on this.
Its weird to me that so many people here actually believe Stoneforge Mystic might be unbanned. It is such an obvious inclusion on the ban list.
Man, why didn't I think of this before? It is a pretty obvious inclusion now that I think about it a little. To anyone reading this: scrap what I said before and my article. There is no way SFM comes off.
It may surprise you to learn not everyone reads the articles you write within hours of them being posted.
Having read your article now, you did a good job fleshing out the points many people have been making in this thread.
If Deathshadow becomes any more dominant that it is, I believe the most likely (and best) thing Wizards could do for the format to help color diversity and tone down Deathshadow would be to ban Thoughtseize.
If Deathshadow becomes less dominant we'd have to see what the new metagame looks like.
If we have the status quo, I still think banning Thoughtseize achieves more of Wizards' goals less painfully and more elegantly than the risk associated with SFM or JTMS unbanning.
I think he's referring more to that you dismissed Stoneforge Mystic without giving any reasoning. You can't really say "obvious" without giving us your reasoning why it's "obvious."
In the current world of Death's Shadows, decks that have gobs of mana, and quick Combo decks, Stoneforge Mystic looks somewhat harmless. Is it a good card? Most definitely and you'd be hard pressed to not play it if you have White in your deck. Would it be the best thing to do in Modern right now? Most certainly not. Stoneforge Mystic IS a dangerous card, but I think that it's fine to let in it and be White's best Modern card (obviously moreso in decks splashing White).
*Personally, I think it's okay for Stoneforge Mystic to come off. I didn't always think this way. In fact, I had planned to run the Stoneforge Mystic "package" in Bloom Titan and in Tron just to PROVE how busted the card was. But those times were different. We have to remember that the original banlist had Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Sword of the Meek, and Ancestral Vision all banned while stuff like Rite of Flame wasn't banned. Modern has been handled pretty good, but there are and have definitely been problems or conflicting situations. You can have an 8/8 creature for B, but Stoneforge is unacceptable. Huh?
I think WotC actually used the phrase "I hope that the fact this card is on the banned list isn't a surprise to you."
I've said before that I personally feel that SFM would only really impact the format in that it would make Abzan decks better, I don't know if WotC would remove it. It was pretty much a package deal banning of JtmS, SFM, and MM(and the negative view of each card given by WotC follows the same order JtmS being the worse and MM being the least worse putting SFM in the middle of the danger zone) as they had all been banned in Extended (at the time the closest format to Modern in regards to actual power level the format could represent) given the rebanning of GGT and the recent rash of Standard flubs that lead to bannings I just don't see WotC being that ready to unban cards which have been known to warp formats much closer to Modern in terms of power level i.e. standard and extended.
I don't think it quite fair to say DS gets a 8/8 for B hence SFM is totally fine, they are different cards and serve different functions in game. Not saying that it isn't on a power level that modern could possibly handle just saying that this a categorical error.
How is reacting to a action by your opponent anit-interactive? Discard is in fact is barely "interaction" as interaction is involves action and reaction and discard is one agent acting on another it is really not any more interactive then a opponent attacking your life total on a bare board your simply attacking different resources.
Your bias towards discard is ridicoulous; yes is not reactive, is proactive disruption, disruption not a threath or anything else, the comparison with a creature on an empty board is just stupid: you can win with creatures, you cannot win with discard no matter what.
I'm not being bias against it, it is minimally interactive it is 1 agent acting on the other passive agent. The comparison wasn't regarding what function a particular card serves but instead how interactive they are perhaps "as interactive as a bolt to the face" would have been better.
How is reacting to a action by your opponent anit-interactive? Discard is in fact is barely "interaction" as interaction is involves action and reaction and discard is one agent acting on another it is really not any more interactive then a opponent attacking your life total on a bare board your simply attacking different resources.
Your bias towards discard is ridicoulous; yes is not reactive, is proactive disruption, disruption not a threath or anything else, the comparison with a creature on an empty board is just stupid: you can win with creatures, you cannot win with discard no matter what.
I'm not being bias against it, it is minimally interactive it is 1 agent acting on the other passive agent. The comparison wasn't regarding what function a particular card serves but instead how interactive they are perhaps "as interactive as a bolt to the face" would have been better.
In every interaction there is one acting agent and a passive agent: if i bolt your creature i'm beeing active while you are undergoing my interaction. The comparison with bolt to the face doesn't make sense because in that case there isn't resources exchange between players as it is in the case of thoughtseize.
not true, you play a creature, i attempt to remove the creature, you can respond to my response etc... discard doesn't play out this way. Life isn't a resource? a card for life? I think your stretching your confirmation bias, discard is good but it isn't the height of interaction it is a one sided exchange nearly always.
But Bizzycola, with discard, you're not exchanging a card for life you're exchanging a card for a card, 1 mana, 1 turn, and life. Additionally, discard becomes a terrible top deck as the game goes on. By running discard you're gambling on having an early flexible answer card that allows you to stabalize against an opponent early on at the risk of drawing dead cards later on. Lets be realistic here, Thoughtseize was never a problem until DS became a thing. Up until DS showed up the life loss from Seize was a problem for most decks, it was only when the 8/8+ for B (that ideally aims to kill you in a single turn)turned up that uses Seize as a permanent Mutagenic Growth and hand disruption that the card has been discussed at all - any bias here is not with the people defending Seize from bans.
Wow I can't believe that people are having such a hard time grasping this, yes the value of the resource your exchanging your card for is different that isn't what I was talking about at all in fact it is a completely different thing. I was speaking about how interactive it is and in regards to that it is as interactive as a lava spike, a step above that would be counterspells and cards like brave the elements which are yes reactive but being reactive escalates the interaction while affects like IoK/TS and lava spike do not.
I would argue that TS/IoK affects like any other thing have positive and negative affects on the meta-game. The prevalence of TS/IoK attrition based strategies leads toward the proliferation of more linear redundant decks like Affinity, Burn, Elves, 8-wack etc.. types decks because being highly redundant and linear are both positive qualities against those types of strategies. Other fair decks are actually what TS/IoK decks prey on. I have not and am not now saying we should ban either I am simply saying we should have a method of interaction available against it to expand the pool of viable fair decks somewhat, if that be a cycle of cards that punish or circumvent them or better cheap card draw to mitigate the race to hellbent affect it has on the meta-game.
Your bias towards discard is ridicoulous; yes is not reactive, is proactive disruption, disruption not a threath or .
In every interaction there is one acting agent and a passive agent: if i bolt your creature i'm beeing active while you are undergoing my interaction. The comparison with bolt to the face doesn't make sense because in that case there isn't resources exchange between players as it is in the case of thoughtseize.
not true, you play a creature, i attempt to remove the creature, you can respond to my response etc... discard doesn't play out this way. Life isn't a resource? a card for life? I think your stretching your confirmation bias, discard is good but it isn't the height of interaction it is a one sided exchange nearly always.
Wait, there are ways to interact with discard such as playing instants or flash threats in response to discard or counters or giving yourself hexproof...
life is a relevant resource only when you are facing burn decks or when you are at a really low life total.
Also i never claimed that discard is the height of interaction, i said is a form of interaction just like permission is.
As LEH said if thoughtseize is a problem is because death shadow is a problem not because discard itself is.
Which is why I said almost always, discard comes in underneath all of those types of cards and they are fundamentally weak to them. I was asking for a method of interacting with it that is actually playable and effective. A lot of people in this forum seem to think that discard based attrition decks are some form of a sacred totem and that anything which might some how diminish its ability to force the game into top deck mode is sacrilege.
Death Shadow is actually very easy for various decks to deal with it is that we have a critical mass of cheap universal discard that clears the path for it. The only real new element that DS adds is that you get a new super Tarmo that is cheaper to play, no vanilla creature could on its own dominate every other fair deck it is the discard that facilitates it because answers are pretty worthless when they are stripped from your hand, most DS games do not end super fast they occupy the first turns of the game removing any relevant cards from you hand.
Has it warped the meta? Hmm, I'd say yeah, to some extent, in that people are now playing more of certain decks in order to edge it out, but I think that's going to happen to any deck that's considered, "the best". I think it's refreshing. If anything, we've been seeing a crap ton of AD NAUS in the top rankings the past six months. The lack of blue and white is still an issue, but the meta still looks fantastic and diverse.
I'm still shocked and disgusted that some people are arguing for a thoughtseize ban. It would make combo decks so much better, it would enable more degenerate things to be done with nothing to stop it, blue certainly won't rise to the challenge, seeing as how they lack counters.
Why would you suggest a ban on thoughtseize when you could ban Traverse, Bauble, Wraiths, or even shadow itself? If DSJ ever proved to be that problematic, I'd sure as hell would rather see Shadow itself banned
Banning thoughtseize would hurt
Death Shadow Jund
Grixis Shadow
Jund
Junk
BG Rock
8Rack
Grixis (just the occasion one's)
Fairies
Mardu
It'd hurt some major decks and affect some tier 3/fringe decks on top of it, that's a massive impact.
How can you guys call thoughtseize "barely interactive?"
I think just one recent example I can give is when
Todd Stevens played against DSJ in the top 8, and game 2 he was thoughtseized. He had a fantastic hand, and a bunch of redundant cards, to the point where I would have panicked had I been Steven's opponent--the player had a risky game plan, mana starve him by taking the mana dork (despite fantastic cards) and hope he can win in time. He plucked off the dorks, laid down an aggressive plan and won against a hand that would have been unbeatable otherwise
It absolutely supplemented his interactive game plan
It's also incredibly easy to make the wrong choice on what to take, we see it all the time at FNM's and we see it happen in the big leagues, too. Games will play out drastically different depending on what is and isn't taken.
If any of you guys consider counters interactive then thoughtseize is interactive. The only difference is that one is better in the early parts of the game where as hard counters shine at the mid to late game. Thoughtseize is also a fantastically awful topdeck in the later parts of a game. Unless you're a combo deck that has somehow grinded late into a game without assembling the win, thoughtseize/iok are awful. If you're an aggressive deck/midrange/control, chances are I'm not taking your win con and I snagged a late removal while still desperate to search for a win con.
By far, guys, this argument for a thoughtseize ban has been one of the most disappointing, uneducated discussions this thread has had in years.
Good to see this. Meta looks healthy and is ripe for an unban. Does it need it? No. But this is the perfect environment to set loose a card or two and see what shakes out. If it goes bad, hey we know where the offender is. I sometimes wish there was a month or two month hold on new cards entering the format.Even a couple of weeks that would allow for some testing and for the meta to get nailed down upon the new cards coming in. I know that's asking too much, but I think it would help the format overall. Besides, most new cards take a while to filter into modern, unless they are slam dunks, of course.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Nothing needs banning and although yesterday's SCG numbers weren't all that much indicative, they are something.
Modern is a diverse, great format and this time I am confident it's going to last. Attacking Thoughtseize seems not a smart idea to me. Do you want make Modern an uninteractive combo festival again? If you do, yes, you should attack TS.
If you want a great, diverse format though you should not be focusing at TS, but instead trying to solve the only slight problem Modern is facing, colour Diversity. There is not great colour diversity now, because U based Control decks and White based decks are not represented as much as Red, Green and Black in Modern. What do we do for this? Unban cards like Preordain and/or Stoneforge Mystic. Those are the only solution and as Sheridan said, I am happy to see that Wizards does agree with those goals and they are going to think of only three cards in Modern. Those two and Jace. Jace should be quickly dismissed IMO because it's just not 100% safe and the other 2 will be discussed. I hope they see that those two cards, especially Preordain should help the last slight problem Modern is facing.
Just enjoy this highly interactive and diverse format, guys. IMO, this thread should be a Ghost Town for now and just wait for Wizards to unban one of those two cards. But I guess people love to complain even in the brightest times of Modern.
Has WotC directly stated that they are considering unbanning Preordain or Stoneforge, or any other card on the banned list for that matter?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
FREE MODERN. Break the Standard link.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
Nothing needs banning and although yesterday's SCG numbers weren't all that much indicative, they are something.
Modern is a diverse, great format and this time I am confident it's going to last. Attacking Thoughtseize seems not a smart idea to me. Do you want make Modern an uninteractive combo festival again? If you do, yes, you should attack TS.
If you want a great, diverse format though you should not be focusing at TS, but instead trying to solve the only slight problem Modern is facing, colour Diversity. There is not great colour diversity now, because U based Control decks and White based decks are not represented as much as Red, Green and Black in Modern. What do we do for this? Unban cards like Preordain and/or Stoneforge Mystic. Those are the only solution and as Sheridan said, I am happy to see that Wizards does agree with those goals and they are going to think of only three cards in Modern. Those two and Jace. Jace should be quickly dismissed IMO because it's just not 100% safe and the other 2 will be discussed. I hope they see that those two cards, especially Preordain should help the last slight problem Modern is facing.
Just enjoy this highly interactive and diverse format, guys. IMO, this thread should be a Ghost Town for now and just wait for Wizards to unban one of those two cards. But I guess people love to complain even in the brightest times of Modern.
Has WotC directly stated that they are considering unbanning Preordain or Stoneforge, or any other card on the banned list for that matter?
No never. The latest thing we had was a tweet by Aaron saying that they are hearing people's opinions on unbanning JTMS for modern and that they would discuss it when they were going to discuss modern (unclear if this has happened or will happen)
Nothing needs banning and although yesterday's SCG numbers weren't all that much indicative, they are something.
Modern is a diverse, great format and this time I am confident it's going to last. Attacking Thoughtseize seems not a smart idea to me. Do you want make Modern an uninteractive combo festival again? If you do, yes, you should attack TS.
If you want a great, diverse format though you should not be focusing at TS, but instead trying to solve the only slight problem Modern is facing, colour Diversity. There is not great colour diversity now, because U based Control decks and White based decks are not represented as much as Red, Green and Black in Modern. What do we do for this? Unban cards like Preordain and/or Stoneforge Mystic. Those are the only solution and as Sheridan said, I am happy to see that Wizards does agree with those goals and they are going to think of only three cards in Modern. Those two and Jace. Jace should be quickly dismissed IMO because it's just not 100% safe and the other 2 will be discussed. I hope they see that those two cards, especially Preordain should help the last slight problem Modern is facing.
Just enjoy this highly interactive and diverse format, guys. IMO, this thread should be a Ghost Town for now and just wait for Wizards to unban one of those two cards. But I guess people love to complain even in the brightest times of Modern.
Has WotC directly stated that they are considering unbanning Preordain or Stoneforge, or any other card on the banned list for that matter?
While deck diversity is good, we're keeping an eye on color balance. If there's an easy change to the banned list that could open up more decks in the future, we will examine it when other formats have less pressing needs.
Yeah the words "Preordain", "Stoneforge", and "Mystic" do not appear in that vague paragraph. Quite a few people want a red card unbanned to power up blue. Also bear in mind "in the future" can be next week, next month, next year, or 10 years from now, and WotC has a mess on their hands w/ fixing their Standard problem, which seems to have reached a crisis point if the lack on comments in the Standard forum here re: the Atlanta Open are any indication of that format's health and players' interest in it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
FREE MODERN. Break the Standard link.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
I'm worried about Gifts Storm being Tier 1, I bought into the deck, it seems really powerful and could do broken things with a Mancer in play? With the rise of metagame share, do you think it could get a ban? Or does this mean Preordain will forever get the axe. I'm concerned because WOTC has a history of hating Storm out.
I dont think Storm in its current form is broken. Though I find it hard to see how decks without permission can deal with it properly. Storm is one of those ultra solitaire decks. Though I find it got a bit more interactive with the gifts package.
There seems to be good balance now with lots of viable tier 1 and 2 decks. I dont think anything needs to be banned unless we run into a serious issue of a unbalanced meta where its basically like Standard was before their banning. Decks will climb and drop from tier 1 and 2. New decks will have a surge like DSJ and then tapper off a bit as more decks try to compensate/adjust. I like the format that has multiple different strategies without 1 or 2 decks just owning the format.
I think Modern as for balanced game play (not getting into the cost debate) is in a good place now. I dont like Thoughtseize but I dont want it banned. As of today I dont see any card that should be banned. Now that may change in a few months when as an example a stupidly broken combo comes around but for now we're in a good spot.
Yea, I cant see what they would ban that would make sense. Grapeshot and empty the warrens, essentially (or attack the enablers, which wouldnt kill the deck completely). Which is WOTC saying we dont want Storm as much as we dont want Dredge. I dont think its that bad.
But who knows. Its Modern. Enjoy your decks while you have them, and never buy into a deck that is currently controversial. Oh, and try to buy into a deck that has a good amount of cards that are shared with other decks. Hardens you against future bans.
Good to see this. Meta looks healthy and is ripe for an unban. Does it need it? No. But this is the perfect environment to set loose a card or two and see what shakes out. If it goes bad, hey we know where the offender is. I sometimes wish there was a month or two month hold on new cards entering the format.Even a couple of weeks that would allow for some testing and for the meta to get nailed down upon the new cards coming in. I know that's asking too much, but I think it would help the format overall. Besides, most new cards take a while to filter into modern, unless they are slam dunks, of course.
Yeah, I had the idea a while back for them to have trial periods for unbans and print gold bordered versions of cards on trial that are tournament legal during the trial period and make them directly purchasable through WotC for like a dollar a piece. That would give them some time to evaluate cards before actually unbanning them, and hopefully reduce the price spikes around unbans.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Don't worry about Storm. It's a Tier 1 deck atm, but I don't think it will be a permanent resident in the Tier 1 categories. But even if it is, it's more interactable than ever(never expect I would be telling that) and like Kovo said, it's not broken. The deck is perfectly fine in power level, as the rest Modern decks are.
I am pretty certain to say nothing will be banned out of the Storm deck and it's 100% safe. Calm down and enjoy your deck
I would imagine any GP win or consecutive GP Top 8 would prompt a ban of Storm of some kind. It's not like the deck has had half a dozen previous bans and Wizards is on record stating they hate the deck and mechanic or anything. That's a deck nobody should feel comfortable playing if it's doing well, but at least it's relatively cheap to build.
There definitely are mechanics that WOTC does not tolerate a lot. Dredge is one, Storm is another. Just dont think its too much of an issue atm. But yes, if you feel like you get too many free wins, you should be worried about your deck.
And the biggest ups and downs compared to March's data:
Bant Company (+3.7%)
Affinity (+3.3%)
UR Storm (+3.0%)
Dredge (+2.7%)
Elves (+2.7%)
Jund Shadow (-7.7%)
Pretty diverse metagame with no deck really standing out (as in, over 10%). Even if I don't personally like Dredge at the top, I like that this "succesful metagame" has evolved beyond Jund Shadow: Bant Company and UR Storm are new additions to the top tier (my cutoff is ~4.5%), which is also nice. However, I'm inclined to believe that having Storm at the top, albeit at reasonable numbers, does rule out a potential Preordain unban. If anything, my bets would be now on either Jace or Stoneforge. Playing WU Control and Storm, I'm really enjoying this metagame guys! Let's see how it plays out at the upcoming GP. Any thoughts?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern:WU WU Control | WBG Abzan Company Frontier:UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
I put Gifts Storm together early because it was so cheap, but I cannot imagine it stays at tier 1 and Wizards leaves it alone. It's hyper consistent if you do not interact, it literally cannot fail.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
UW Spirits
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Not surprised at all I've been saying it for awhile, if you want to beat 8 1c.c. discard spell decks you probably want to play a very redundant strategy. .Affinity, Burn, Storm all super redundant. Eldrazi Tron naturally blanks IoK and Push most the time and of course dredge probably wouldn't mind you forcing them to discard.
Also Frank Lepore talked about how counterspell wouldn't even be very good in standard currently because of the volume of early threats. He had a little thought experiment that even if it was U counter target spell, that it wouldn't even be as good as fatal push because of just how fast Magic has gotten. He called it a blue fatal push.
My question is, Would that be better or worse than fatal push in modern? It would have the advantage of countering non-creature spells when needed but in reality most of the non-creature spells you want to counter are easily within counterspells ability to handle. Has the disadvantage of not being able to do anything about a resolved threat.
Just wondering what other peoples thoughts are on this.
I think WotC actually used the phrase "I hope that the fact this card is on the banned list isn't a surprise to you."
I've said before that I personally feel that SFM would only really impact the format in that it would make Abzan decks better, I don't know if WotC would remove it. It was pretty much a package deal banning of JtmS, SFM, and MM(and the negative view of each card given by WotC follows the same order JtmS being the worse and MM being the least worse putting SFM in the middle of the danger zone) as they had all been banned in Extended (at the time the closest format to Modern in regards to actual power level the format could represent) given the rebanning of GGT and the recent rash of Standard flubs that lead to bannings I just don't see WotC being that ready to unban cards which have been known to warp formats much closer to Modern in terms of power level i.e. standard and extended.
I don't think it quite fair to say DS gets a 8/8 for B hence SFM is totally fine, they are different cards and serve different functions in game. Not saying that it isn't on a power level that modern could possibly handle just saying that this a categorical error.
I'm not being bias against it, it is minimally interactive it is 1 agent acting on the other passive agent. The comparison wasn't regarding what function a particular card serves but instead how interactive they are perhaps "as interactive as a bolt to the face" would have been better.
not true, you play a creature, i attempt to remove the creature, you can respond to my response etc... discard doesn't play out this way. Life isn't a resource? a card for life? I think your stretching your confirmation bias, discard is good but it isn't the height of interaction it is a one sided exchange nearly always.
Wow I can't believe that people are having such a hard time grasping this, yes the value of the resource your exchanging your card for is different that isn't what I was talking about at all in fact it is a completely different thing. I was speaking about how interactive it is and in regards to that it is as interactive as a lava spike, a step above that would be counterspells and cards like brave the elements which are yes reactive but being reactive escalates the interaction while affects like IoK/TS and lava spike do not.
I would argue that TS/IoK affects like any other thing have positive and negative affects on the meta-game. The prevalence of TS/IoK attrition based strategies leads toward the proliferation of more linear redundant decks like Affinity, Burn, Elves, 8-wack etc.. types decks because being highly redundant and linear are both positive qualities against those types of strategies. Other fair decks are actually what TS/IoK decks prey on. I have not and am not now saying we should ban either I am simply saying we should have a method of interaction available against it to expand the pool of viable fair decks somewhat, if that be a cycle of cards that punish or circumvent them or better cheap card draw to mitigate the race to hellbent affect it has on the meta-game.
Which is why I said almost always, discard comes in underneath all of those types of cards and they are fundamentally weak to them. I was asking for a method of interacting with it that is actually playable and effective. A lot of people in this forum seem to think that discard based attrition decks are some form of a sacred totem and that anything which might some how diminish its ability to force the game into top deck mode is sacrilege.
Death Shadow is actually very easy for various decks to deal with it is that we have a critical mass of cheap universal discard that clears the path for it. The only real new element that DS adds is that you get a new super Tarmo that is cheaper to play, no vanilla creature could on its own dominate every other fair deck it is the discard that facilitates it because answers are pretty worthless when they are stripped from your hand, most DS games do not end super fast they occupy the first turns of the game removing any relevant cards from you hand.
Has it warped the meta? Hmm, I'd say yeah, to some extent, in that people are now playing more of certain decks in order to edge it out, but I think that's going to happen to any deck that's considered, "the best". I think it's refreshing. If anything, we've been seeing a crap ton of AD NAUS in the top rankings the past six months. The lack of blue and white is still an issue, but the meta still looks fantastic and diverse.
I'm still shocked and disgusted that some people are arguing for a thoughtseize ban. It would make combo decks so much better, it would enable more degenerate things to be done with nothing to stop it, blue certainly won't rise to the challenge, seeing as how they lack counters.
Why would you suggest a ban on thoughtseize when you could ban Traverse, Bauble, Wraiths, or even shadow itself? If DSJ ever proved to be that problematic, I'd sure as hell would rather see Shadow itself banned
Banning thoughtseize would hurt
Death Shadow Jund
Grixis Shadow
Jund
Junk
BG Rock
8Rack
Grixis (just the occasion one's)
Fairies
Mardu
It'd hurt some major decks and affect some tier 3/fringe decks on top of it, that's a massive impact.
How can you guys call thoughtseize "barely interactive?"
I think just one recent example I can give is when
Todd Stevens played against DSJ in the top 8, and game 2 he was thoughtseized. He had a fantastic hand, and a bunch of redundant cards, to the point where I would have panicked had I been Steven's opponent--the player had a risky game plan, mana starve him by taking the mana dork (despite fantastic cards) and hope he can win in time. He plucked off the dorks, laid down an aggressive plan and won against a hand that would have been unbeatable otherwise
It absolutely supplemented his interactive game plan
It's also incredibly easy to make the wrong choice on what to take, we see it all the time at FNM's and we see it happen in the big leagues, too. Games will play out drastically different depending on what is and isn't taken.
If any of you guys consider counters interactive then thoughtseize is interactive. The only difference is that one is better in the early parts of the game where as hard counters shine at the mid to late game. Thoughtseize is also a fantastically awful topdeck in the later parts of a game. Unless you're a combo deck that has somehow grinded late into a game without assembling the win, thoughtseize/iok are awful. If you're an aggressive deck/midrange/control, chances are I'm not taking your win con and I snagged a late removal while still desperate to search for a win con.
By far, guys, this argument for a thoughtseize ban has been one of the most disappointing, uneducated discussions this thread has had in years.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Has WotC directly stated that they are considering unbanning Preordain or Stoneforge, or any other card on the banned list for that matter?
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
I think this needs to be in bold at the top of the thread.
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm
Yeah the words "Preordain", "Stoneforge", and "Mystic" do not appear in that vague paragraph. Quite a few people want a red card unbanned to power up blue. Also bear in mind "in the future" can be next week, next month, next year, or 10 years from now, and WotC has a mess on their hands w/ fixing their Standard problem, which seems to have reached a crisis point if the lack on comments in the Standard forum here re: the Atlanta Open are any indication of that format's health and players' interest in it.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
So it looks like they can focus all of their attention on modern now
It is too early to claim that.
Look at the most recent top 8 list here
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/scg-standard-open-atlanta-2017-04-30#online
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
I think Modern as for balanced game play (not getting into the cost debate) is in a good place now. I dont like Thoughtseize but I dont want it banned. As of today I dont see any card that should be banned. Now that may change in a few months when as an example a stupidly broken combo comes around but for now we're in a good spot.
But who knows. Its Modern. Enjoy your decks while you have them, and never buy into a deck that is currently controversial. Oh, and try to buy into a deck that has a good amount of cards that are shared with other decks. Hardens you against future bans.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Yeah, I had the idea a while back for them to have trial periods for unbans and print gold bordered versions of cards on trial that are tournament legal during the trial period and make them directly purchasable through WotC for like a dollar a piece. That would give them some time to evaluate cards before actually unbanning them, and hopefully reduce the price spikes around unbans.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I would imagine any GP win or consecutive GP Top 8 would prompt a ban of Storm of some kind. It's not like the deck has had half a dozen previous bans and Wizards is on record stating they hate the deck and mechanic or anything. That's a deck nobody should feel comfortable playing if it's doing well, but at least it's relatively cheap to build.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
- Dredge - 7.7%
- Eldrazi Tron - 6.7%
- UR Storm - 6.7%
- Affinity - 6.7%
- Grixis Shadow - 5.0%
- Bant Company - 4.7%
- Jund Shadow - 4.3%
- Burn - 4.3%
- Abzan Midrange - 4.0%
- Elves - 4.0%
- WU Control - 3.3%
- Bant Eldrazi - 3.0%
And the biggest ups and downs compared to March's data:- Bant Company (+3.7%)
- Affinity (+3.3%)
- UR Storm (+3.0%)
- Dredge (+2.7%)
- Elves (+2.7%)
- Jund Shadow (-7.7%)
Pretty diverse metagame with no deck really standing out (as in, over 10%). Even if I don't personally like Dredge at the top, I like that this "succesful metagame" has evolved beyond Jund Shadow: Bant Company and UR Storm are new additions to the top tier (my cutoff is ~4.5%), which is also nice. However, I'm inclined to believe that having Storm at the top, albeit at reasonable numbers, does rule out a potential Preordain unban. If anything, my bets would be now on either Jace or Stoneforge. Playing WU Control and Storm, I'm really enjoying this metagame guys! Let's see how it plays out at the upcoming GP. Any thoughts?Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
Spirits